[15:53:26] Hi, I was wondering if there is any support on wikimedia.org/the mediawiki software for presenting machine embroidery files and whether there is a directory for them on the site. I've had a look through and couldn't find any dst/pes/jef files on the relevant pages. [15:54:17] That sort of thing could be an extension, but I don't know of any offhand that exist currently, unfortunately [15:54:58] Ok, well if I have the necessary knowledge and connections to make such an extension happen where would I set that up? [15:55:44] What do you mean by set it up? [15:58:35] Assuming we had a working extension to mediawiki that automatically presents machine embroidery files in a nice, practical way... it would need to be added to a site (I'm assuming wikimedia.org) to have the community to add designs that use that extension. It's that connecting up part I'm confused about. [15:58:52] Ohhh [15:58:57] That, honestly is the hard part [15:59:01] Yes, in theory, it's doable [15:59:14] Well, blessings for small mercies [15:59:20] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Writing_an_extension_for_deployment is part of it [15:59:47] I wasn't sure from your original question if you just wanted it for your "own" wiki, or something else :) [16:02:28] The problem as I see it is: I'm trying to improve machine embroidery software/hardware for the commons... [16:02:54] _but_ there isn't a safe, reliable way to get designs for free that are open licensed out there. [16:03:13] As an abstract, I think it's a good idea. Whether the community would agree, and whether the WMF would want to support said software long term, is unfortunately a different issue [16:03:19] We've had similar history with 3D models, for example [16:03:44] Ah, that makes sense. A lot of machine embroidery's growing pains mirror that of the CNC world. [16:04:47] People don't want to present 3D models on free platforms so the people who'll sell your email address to spammers step in to give you a "free" download. [16:05:54] What if every say, Brother pes file, uploaded to mediawiki requires the uploader to supply the picture and description. There's very little automation so it's similar to hosting a public domain image? [16:06:44] As you mention Brother... is it technically a "free" file format? [16:06:51] Well [16:07:11] The closest we have to that is the Tajima DST format. [16:07:12] Cause that's another hurdle... :) [16:07:23] Patents and stuff [16:08:04] Mediawiki is perfectly happy to host PostScript, SVG and CSV right? [16:08:20] MediaWiki itself doesn't really care [16:08:36] oh, ok I mean wikimedia.org specifically [16:08:53] We host SVG definitely... CVS not so much, and I don't think we allow PS uploads either [16:09:56] Why not PS? That' [16:10:12] s licenced fairly nicely [16:10:14] I don't think we have handling capability for it [16:10:24] Oooh, hm [16:10:36] Like the ghostscript backend or something? [16:10:58] I mean an MW extension [16:11:00] or similar [16:11:08] I think we do use PS stuff as middleware for some other formats [16:11:14] PDF etc [16:11:37] PDF is kind of a wrapper to PS. You can see blobs of PostScript inside PDFs [16:11:49] Yeah, but we don't accept PS directly (IIRC) [16:12:04] Er what about encapsulated? [16:12:07] EPS [16:12:41] > [16:12:41] Permitted file types: tiff, tif, png, gif, jpg, jpeg, webp, xcf, mid, ogg, ogv, svg, djvu, stl, oga, flac, opus, wav, webm, mp3, midi, mpg, mpeg. [16:12:59] mp3 is a better example... "we" only recently allowed that after patents expired [16:14:02] Thank you, that helps me get this [16:14:29] MediaWiki itself doesn't care(TM), and will in theory accept almost any files [16:14:40] It's just whether it knows how to do anything with them (in core, or via extensions) [16:14:51] So you have the technical aspect, which is somewhat easier [16:15:12] Then you have the movement aspect, who do care about using FLOSS-y licensed stuff in Wikimedia projects [16:15:24] no mod/s3m/it/xm :(( [16:15:45] "the movement aspect"? [16:15:53] policy [16:16:03] stuff that users do or do not want [16:16:15] again, MP3 wasn't allowed while it was behind patents etc [16:16:23] They could've allowed it, if they wanted [16:17:48] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_file_formats [16:17:55] Could I use this list? [16:17:57] The WMF has a similar policy somewhere to https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Open_source_policy but [16:17:59] >Wikimedia UK uses open source software wherever possible and practical, but will use proprietary software where there are significant practical benefits to doing so when compared to the open source alternatives. [16:19:42] That list probably looks a decent starting point [16:23:19] If svg and ps are allowed it may just be easiest to make a standardised version of embroidery files that can be represented that way so when they're fed through a converter they reliably look the same. Then the existing support is enough and we just need a community page to co-ordinate making a library of them. [16:24:13] I'm presuming there's (standalone/library) software out there that will turn the source files into some sort of image? [16:24:26] Which is what I'm presuming you're wanting... a rendering of what the output would look like [16:25:22] Or the other way... Depending on the format of the files [16:25:27] Well, I think I'm giving up on that. If mediawiki is sniffy about freely licensed files in non-free file types then I think I just need to dodge that [16:25:39] You can put the contents onto a wiki page, and have that render something... which is what we do for musical scores [16:25:53] Oh? [16:25:55] Again, it's not MediaWiki, it's the movement that really cares about that sort of thing [16:26:03] So the non-free version is available as a download? [16:26:20] But the free version is what generates it? [16:27:23] That would be so good. If a wikipedia page had an image of an embroidery, you click it and like a movie file it opens a widget that allows you to download one of the various formats that will then run on your machine. [16:27:33] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pages_using_the_Score_extension https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2750s_progression etc [16:28:11] I'm not 100% sure on that... We didn't allow MP3 as output until we allowed it as input [16:28:19] But then, we've generated PDFs etc for a long time [16:28:34] PDF is more open these days, ofc [16:29:00] The drum grooves playing at the top of the page is a great feature, my wife would use that. [16:30:16] like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosanna_shuffle [16:31:00] Ok, I'll do some reading and save the logs for later. Thanks Reedy! [16:31:04] Is there a wikiproject/similar that this is in scope for? [16:31:15] Cause that would be the sort of place to start, try and get consensus that this is desired/wanted etc [16:31:46] Maybe, I don't know how to look for it? I see these projects all the time but I don't know how to find one that covers this. [16:32:33] If there's articles on the wikipedias about embroidery (for example), look at the talk page and see if it's listed as in scope of the topic [16:32:48] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Embroidery [16:32:51] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Textile_Arts [16:32:55] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Craft [16:33:44] Yeah I found Project_Textile_Arts. Thanks [16:34:52] Ok, this is going to take some reading. Thanks again. Swift out.