[02:19:33] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> @Jst Tan I just found out there's another app called Dodo that does a lot less free and paid content than kaiheila [02:20:07] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> can you see it in the Malaysian App Store? [02:20:42] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Is the delay acceptable compared to the opening of the black [02:21:20] [discord] let me check [02:22:05] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/958551658504290374/Screenshot_20220330_102142_cn.kaiheila.jpg [02:22:05] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/958551658890145802/Screenshot_20220330_102123_com.dodolive.app.jpg [02:22:37] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I think a whole new discussion is needed [02:34:01] [discord] Just found it. It is cool [02:34:13] [discord] At least hv some features better then Discord [02:34:17] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/The_comments_sever(s)_for_users_who_are_in_Chinese_Mainland [02:34:18] [url] Requests for Comment/The comments sever(s) for users who are in Chinese Mainland - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [02:34:26] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> the new one comments [02:39:44] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> @Jst Tan I sent the link to ur Wechat [02:39:57] [discord] Oh ok I didn’t saw it 😅 [02:40:31] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> and it support the website [02:40:49] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://imdodo.com [02:40:57] [url] DoDo 渡渡语音 | imdodo.com [02:43:07] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I didn't find it in Google Play [02:43:31] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> so you can use it in the VM if you don't trust it [03:00:40] [discord] New DoDo server: [03:00:40] [discord] [03:00:42] [discord] https://imdodo.com/i?gNo=105131 [03:00:46] [url] DoDo 渡渡语音 | imdodo.com [03:05:49] [discord] Dodo is very similar to Guilded actually but has a lot less features [03:06:04] [discord] But more then Discord 🤣 [05:54:37] [discord] Dodo is actually fried ripe plantains :EpicFaceMH: [05:54:48] [discord] lol [09:22:33] [discord] ha [10:50:14] [discord] Can IRC users see the message sent in Discord? [10:50:48] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> In theory, yes [10:51:14] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Unless the robots crash (at least not yet) [10:51:38] [discord] But in fact? [10:51:38] [discord] Hmm [10:51:40] [discord] That's interesting [10:52:07] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://google.con [10:52:21] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> https://google.com [10:52:21] [url] Google | google.com [10:52:37] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> it is relay [10:53:02] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> robot in irc reply it [10:54:50] [discord] Got it [12:18:38] [discord] so, this is in extension to the original proposal, right [12:41:35] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> yes [12:41:55] [discord] ideally proposals that are based on the original idea are 'sub proposals' on the same page [12:42:19] [discord] you can find an example of what that means by referring to previous proposals where say, someone makes a 'proposal 2' suggestion [12:42:50] [discord] while I've been dragging feet on it, I've been thinking of merging both as well as cleaning up the original page [12:45:44] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> But my title is about QQ content [12:48:21] [discord] the title can be changed [12:49:31] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I forgot it ... [12:50:18] [discord] well, per above, if I get 'the bug' to work through it I can try to clean it all up [12:50:33] [discord] mainly I need to do it in a way that preserves as much history as possible [12:55:25] [discord] Well, I'd like to inquire something about one blocked user [12:55:25] [discord] Any cvts here? [12:56:11] [discord] They wouldnt be able to give you information outside of the block reason [12:56:21] [discord] Ah the message got deleted [12:56:55] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> #ID:435711390544560128 [13:02:08] [discord] Okay [13:02:08] [discord] And what I want to know is block reason of a user [13:02:29] [discord] So go to their user contribs page [13:02:34] [discord] It will say on top [13:03:27] [discord] Nothing [13:03:28] [discord] He only got blocked [13:03:39] [discord] :CB_facepalm: [13:03:44] [discord] https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/947450144343855104/958583429476278342/AW.png [13:03:44] [discord] @GT610 No links allowed. [13:04:12] [discord] Who is it [13:04:32] [discord] Evolutech7711 [13:04:37] [discord] oh [13:04:39] [discord] that was trust and safety [13:04:48] [discord] not disclosable I'm afraid [13:04:55] [discord] Yeah you definitely cannot get more info then [13:05:33] [discord] Trust and safety? [13:05:34] [discord] He did nothing wrong [13:05:51] [discord] not everything T&S related requires you to be intentionally doing something wrong [13:05:59] [discord] but it's nonetheless required [13:06:31] [discord] This is pure speculation, but he could underage, broken ToS, or some other major thing. [13:06:47] [discord] it's really a matter between him and ts@, who will hear him out upon contact [13:07:18] [discord] It is good to hear Miraheze Trust and Safety is doing their job [13:08:25] [discord] Although I do hope Miraheze Trust and Safety actually do their job right unlike Discord one……… [13:08:45] [discord] Discord’s do their job right. [13:09:12] [discord] sometimes they don’t………. [13:09:44] [discord] So why keeping block reason a secret? [13:10:12] [discord] True……. it should be publicly available [13:10:12] [discord] Because its a matter of safety and/or trust [13:10:28] [discord] Confidental [13:10:30] [discord] Please do remember [[w:WP:NEEDTOKNOW]] as well. [13:10:30] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NEEDTOKNOW [13:10:31] [discord] [13:10:40] [discord] privacy? [13:11:59] [discord] Yes [13:12:11] [discord] Ah okay [13:12:41] [discord] That make sense. [13:14:12] [discord] So solutions? [13:14:12] [discord] His account was deleted [13:14:14] [discord] Nothing left [13:14:22] [discord] We NEED a solution [13:14:33] [discord] He needs to email ts@ miraheze.org [13:15:28] [discord] what was done wrong in discord operation [13:15:37] [discord] I can bring it up and we can see about straightening it out if it's a problem [13:15:55] [discord] He means discord T&S [13:16:09] [discord] trust and safety is literally miraheze secret service, ie, it is only invoked in emergencies or matters of platform security, privacy, legality, etc; those things are necessarily confidential [13:16:19] [discord] discord ts is on and off [13:16:42] [discord] Miraheze TS is reasonably thorough, if limited on volunteers and so response time [13:17:41] [discord] zppix is correct, it's a message that must be sent to ts@ and addressed that way [13:21:33] [discord] Can TS unblock the account? [13:21:39] [discord] No [13:21:48] [discord] You have to email TS@ like told [13:21:55] [discord] They have to email TS@ like told (edited) [13:22:19] [discord] Please listen to what we are telling you as we seem to be going in circles. [13:26:20] [discord] If you're unsure about what was stated above, please specify so it can be made more clear [13:26:46] [discord] the lock status is not something any third party is in any position to change [13:27:00] [discord] not even say, by me as a steward [13:30:53] [discord] not really effect Miraheze but since this is off topic so I just mentioned [13:31:18] [discord] yeah, if you were meaning discord ts then I just misunderstood [13:31:32] [discord] I will say at least recently they've gotten better at catching up with email [13:32:25] [discord] lol true [13:32:35] [discord] but their staff not really the “best” [13:33:20] [discord] at least when other share self-harm and etc content that is not allow in Discord or raiding Discord server, Discord trust and safety doesn’t really good at moderating those……… [13:37:24] [discord] not best no, but in my experience if I personally report those things today, I'd have a reasonable chance of getting a reply [13:37:53] [discord] part of it does entail doing it correctly, ie, purging messages and then reporting them doesn't work because it seems like the responders cannot typically access deleted messages [13:38:20] [discord] They cant [13:38:47] [discord] reassuring in the sense that deletion generally works I suppose [13:39:05] [discord] but if you don't report alongside message deletion, they're dead in the water [13:39:30] [discord] If you delete the message they cant see it [13:39:45] [discord] we're saying pretty much the same thing :p [13:44:34] [discord] I am the owner of that locked account. [13:45:23] [discord] In that case, your inquiry to cvt@ has been replied to at least in the cvt capacity, and it remains for ts@ to reply to the forwarded email. [13:46:55] [discord] Although it took a few hours for someone to reply. [13:47:35] [discord] Miraheze emailing is slow and you can expect a longer delay from ts@ unfortunately. [13:47:56] [discord] It's only very recently I've even gotten into regularly addressing stewards@, which had a significant backlog. [13:52:24] We are a volunteer project after all, so I'm afraid that it can't be expected for someone to reply earlier than a few hours [14:03:46] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I think it is necessary to have a volunteer email team that covers most languages (the problem is that not even the UN working languages are covered at the moment) [14:06:30] [discord] Our ranks are rather limited in core team in the first place, including people with sufficient community/volunteer trust to handle the potentially sensitive content that appears in miraheze email [14:06:50] [discord] even the cvt email, a 'less sensitive' inbox, can be thrown things that should only be for steward or trust and safety eyes [14:07:03] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> But Fandom's legions of volunteers can only cope with the demand, and if demand surges due to social events or technical problems, robots must be introduced [14:07:30] [discord] frankly, if we have to resort to robots to handle emails then we have pretty much failed on individual service, and we simply don't have the resources to competently automate anyway [14:07:59] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> yes [14:08:13] [discord] right now my approach is basically setting some maximum response time bars to handle what we do get, and starting a centralized approach so more volunteers know what is 'on the menu' and when there's something going on [14:09:14] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> But this is the cheapest way to deal with a shortage of staff that would otherwise require temporary third-party customer service [14:09:44] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> a good idea [14:09:46] [discord] miraheze is staunchly opposed to 'outsourcing' its service [14:10:14] [discord] part of the problem is that frankly not enough volunteers really look at the email or are obliged to swifter response time, and that is the first issue that should change [14:10:55] [discord] you may have noticed that response time at a steward level was completely awful even on wiki for some time, and that was an issue that only started to be caught up when we added back John, when Doug became a bit more active and when I entered the ranks [14:11:59] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Will Miraheze use robots to sort out which information to show which volunteers, if enough technology is available and robots can improve efficiency without compromising service? [14:13:34] [discord] one idea I've had is a bit more delegation and a better internal system; enabling volunteers to handle more situations that shouldn't require top level steward intervention (ie, I like to trust Global Sysops and SRE with things maybe a bit more than traditionally on the platform and there are things ordinary users can do to satisfy basic issues), and for the second part having a workflow to check notable areas co [14:14:03] [discord] with that I think response times and issue resolution can be better improved as well as communication, something which is also an issue between miraheze branches and even volunteers within branches [14:14:30] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> +1 [14:14:45] [discord] I'd like to see more volunteers who have an organizational eye/good communication who can improve the operation of various branches [14:15:04] [discord] with all that I think we can get on well before considering robots, which would be an entirely different direction and imo an unwise one at this time [14:15:34] [discord] miraheze tech is rather strained either way, if anything we need more volunteering power there before we can be more ambitious [14:15:54] [discord] the idea to automate wiki requests has largely stalled for that reason, it's just not something that we can actively develop [14:18:09] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I think it is necessary to connect with public social services when necessary. For example, some people with depression may ask in an email what the conditions are for hanging {{death}} and how to prove that it is not destructive. In this case, public mental health experts need to take over [14:18:09] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:death [14:18:10] [discord] [14:18:11] [url] Creating Death - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [14:18:59] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I think it's part of social responsibility. What do you think?@raidarr [14:21:14] [discord] Such an email would be forwarded to the right people depending on jurisdiction and context, and is a bit of an extreme case. While it would technically best fit into Trust and Safety, we could probably benefit from say, a dedicated CVT resource to consistently and immediately handle that kind of issue when we see it at least temporarily before it does become a T&S matter. [14:21:31] [discord] T&S does have various internal procedures which probably cover your example, but per above it may end up at say, cvt@ first [14:22:05] [discord] and internal processes are all internal to each area of Miraheze - what CVT does, T&S does, SRE does are all a bit different [14:22:15] [discord] that decentralization can be a strength, but right now also a weakness [14:22:21] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> it is good [14:23:16] [discord] while we're musing there's also a bit of a problem at the board level, Board being the entity that legally represents Miraheze ownership - a lack of qualified/willing volunteers [14:23:31] [discord] really all areas can benefit from extra hands, but there's a way to go in optimizing what we do have [14:23:44] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> In fact, email as a form of customer service has been obsolete in China for some time, even for encyclopedia sites, most have web customer service [14:24:22] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> But using Phabraric has a learning cost for novices [14:24:24] [discord] I've been thinking for some time about overhauling on-wiki service as it can genuinely be confusing at a glance for Miraheze, especially when you're directed to totally different areas or even systems (phabricator) [14:24:41] [discord] I don't like it when service is split between completely different platforms [14:25:03] [discord] though I would even take issue with that on Fandom, where they have an outsourced platform that is operationally different to the wikis themselves [14:25:10] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> You know, I just had to figure out how to use it [14:25:35] [discord] it can be figured out, but interface design is also a matter of minimizing the learning gap and possible confusion too [14:25:48] @raidarr heh, overhauling help/support pages is that one project that everyone wants but is so complex no one gets to it [14:26:08] [discord] yep, and I still haven't gotten to the proof of concept I wanted to make at one point for an overhauled support system on Meta [14:26:15] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I go direct to the global administrator, which is better than customer service [14:26:21] [discord] pretty much the technical demo + having other stuff is holding me up [14:26:52] [discord] Meta has a few ways to 'triage' a request, for example, a less known system is to just post your question on your user talk page and use a help template [14:27:01] [discord] but awareness and procedural efficiency for that is very weak [14:28:02] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> user talk page [14:28:07] [discord] and re Reception, you also have to be careful not to go too big and lose the plot >.< otherwise the attempt to improve makes things much more confusing [14:28:41] [discord] ie, if I was just a user and had no idea where to go on Meta, I could post on [[User talk:Raidarr]] and just ask there so a volunteer can move it where it needs to be, say where it needs to go or just take care of it [14:28:41] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User_talk:Raidarr [14:28:42] [discord] [14:28:42] [url] User talk:Raidarr - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [14:29:26] yeah [14:29:38] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Anyone can edit, and in case of the unfortunate situation I mentioned, and someone with malicious intent to fan the flames (though the probability of finding one in a hundred of them is very high), the consequences would be unimaginable [14:29:48] @Raidarr I think it might be easier and less daunting if we did the overhaul in stages though, not have to have everything prepared for a major switch [14:29:59] [discord] yeah, stage transition would be good [14:30:16] [discord] it does increase the workload in the sense that each stage also has to have thought put into it to be executed smoothly [14:30:34] [discord] it's just an awfully big project to overhaul 'the way we do things' as an idea [14:30:55] [discord] but right now I've been focusing on internal just so we can try to be more efficient for who we have [14:31:05] yeah [14:32:31] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> I suggest using social media messaging as another customer service channel [14:33:52] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> And post the message that it can handle inquiries and other business after links to social media channels [14:34:10] [discord] iirc, miraheze has a few social media presences, but nothing organized [14:34:18] [discord] we could actually give it a shot, see how much we can concentrate [14:34:20] We already accept DMs on Twitter/Facebook but unfortunately we don't always have time to check them [14:34:26] So they are checked less frequently [14:34:37] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> People who are having a hard time using social media are prioritized [14:34:42] that's because it's obviously hard for someone to check: IRC, email, on-wiki, Discord, Twitter, Facebook, Phabricator [14:34:53] [discord] yeah, the other issue is that we add more platforms but we have the same amount of people, and so can be able to respond to them less especially if say, not many of us even care about facebook as a platform [14:35:11] [discord] it's what I raised with creating a dedicated chinese channel, we simply lack the volunteering power to make it 'official enough' [14:35:14] yeah, currently as far as I'm aware facebook has an automatic message saying things won't be responded to quickly [14:35:39] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> but we also need official officers [14:35:43] [discord] what we might do is create 'face accounts' where yes, we exist, but we direct inquiry to places where we are more active [14:35:49] @raidarr I haven't yet commented on the Chinese channel RfC but I would oppose it as an 'official' channel because there is no 'high ranking' Miraheze member (Steward, SRE, etc.) to manage it [14:36:11] [discord] yeah, that's the greatest issue with that RfC, we just plain lack the reach to do it justice officially [14:36:14] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> And the task of psychological counseling will be divided into part of the platform customer service [14:36:23] so I don't think it would be reasonable to give it an official character, but that doesn't mean an unofficial channel can't exist, but it just can't be seen to be 'run by Miraheze' like Discord without an elected person managing it [14:36:36] and unfortunately, I don't know any of the people involved in the proposal process to be able to vote for any of them [14:36:38] [discord] frankly I'd like to discourage having any real psychological operations that aren't a procedure to redirect to more competent/topical people [14:37:23] [discord] pretty much any more obscure (for us) service will have to be unofficial and have its representatives prod us when an issue comes through them, we're inefficient as it is with the locations we officially support [14:37:36] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Now there are two platforms with server preparation groups, one of which I am the person in charge and the other is Jst Tan. We can transfer the management right to Miraheze if necessary [14:37:52] Well yes but there will be no use in Miraheze managing them if we don't understand the language [14:37:59] [discord] now that I think of it, Mirhaeze also has a presence on reddit... but it's operated by Southparkfan [14:38:18] Then if something inappropriate happens on the channel people can say "oh look Miraheze didn't moderate it!" when in fact we don't even understand the language to do so [14:38:20] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> so some channels will still in English [14:38:20] [discord] though I think there are ways to take over a reddit properly, but I digress [14:38:57] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> but new user help use Chinese(if there are enough people) [14:38:57] While it's unfortunate that we don't have Chinese speakers as 'high ranking' people at Miraheze, that's the reality :( [14:39:06] [discord] the best we might expect is having a 'semi official' community where volunteers with reach are there and still able to address things, provided they are able to take at least a look once a day, and are able to translate the text contents [14:39:17] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> Reddit is blocked in China [14:39:27] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> and ru [14:39:39] [discord] reddit has very extended reach in other areas, but yeah, I meant that separately from the chinese community outreach [14:39:41] yeah, a semi-official one would be fine, but just not an official one like Discord or IRC, unless it is moderated by people elected [14:39:54] [discord] it's an example of the operational difficulties we have, I don't even think we have an official list of every place we have some presence on [14:40:08] [discord] that's actually something I'm working on very slowly today, getting an operational list together [14:40:44] @raidarr I guess I have a small unofficial accounts list [14:40:53] we even have an unused Instagram account just so no one would steal the name :P [14:40:59] and a Linkedin one though I think NDKilla still owns that [14:41:10] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> but how about interwiki requests [14:41:11] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> and cvt? [14:41:23] what about them? [14:41:26] [discord] it would be nice to get a list, and we can pull together [14:41:27] [discord] - name of where it is [14:41:29] [discord] - who operates it [14:41:30] [discord] - its 'official' status [14:41:33] [discord] <城市酸儒文人挖坑> If Chinese volunteers need to forward all the work is not small [14:41:39] [discord] but for the sake of just getting it out reception, feel free to put down a list of just the first point [14:42:01] [discord] The trouble is that we cannot reliably offer interwiki request service nor cvt service to a non official platform [14:42:09] @raidarr if it's just the first then: Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin, Instagram, Reddit (partially) are the only ones I can think of [14:42:20] [discord] reddit I may be able to do something with [14:42:26] I agree with @raidarr. The only solution to that would be to have a Chinese Global Sysop/Steward [14:42:26]