[20:49:25] [1/2] @DarkMatterMan4500 I strongly suggest you rethink the vote you recently cast in which you liked a user to a monkey, used rather harsh language including 'pathetic', demonstrated a severe lack of familiarity with the material you voted on, and to use a word from within the vote, egregiously used large words to drive home otherwise faulty points. The vote compromises any higher gr [20:49:26] [2/2] ound the supporters could claim by stooping to arguably worse offenses than alleged in the proposal. [20:59:33] Offtopic, but how much longer do you expect to stay on this server given your retirement from Miraheze proper? [20:59:43] I would hope indefinitely [20:59:47] ^ [20:59:56] same here [21:06:52] what I've missed now [21:09:16] May hang around and post as-needed [21:11:03] cban for naleksuh [21:11:28] that I just saw, what's w/ Raidarr? [21:12:21] ah DMM’s vote on the matter was….slightly extreme [21:13:25] I commented on an exceedingly poor vote [21:21:01] what did i miss [21:22:39] Naleksuh community ban [21:22:45] i may also mention perhaps the words "hell" should be rephrased aswell [21:23:20] yo naleksuh made a comment [21:24:00] uhhh i dont believe nelksuha's vote counts at all as its Aginst him' [21:24:57] OP did not put a comments section [21:25:03] So what should I do then, support against myself? [21:25:12] ur vote doesnt count nalekshu [21:25:47] It does [21:26:48] i dont see why a vote should count on the user its aginst [21:27:10] Either way, that vote is implied unless otherwise stated [21:27:25] Who wouldn't defend themself? [21:28:42] im not saying defending himself should be prohibited but the fact of the vote shouldnt count since its aginst him @Agent [21:29:35] ya know what its fine doesnt matter the majority of supports will more likely win anyways [21:29:35] If you have an opinion about the RfC, please voice it on the page [21:32:22] i will do such said thing [21:35:50] @Hey4567 you may wanan rephrase your vote and vulgure language towards another user [21:42:36] @Agent Part of the reason why people dont want to leave feedback onwiki is because it just gets ignored. For example the thread on SN where I responded to the accusations and disproved claims but people just ignored it and supported on the original statement. This discourages people from even wanting to write anything about [21:42:36] If I responded to OP's accusations would people actually read it and/or reconsider their vote? Because I do not think so, I think it will have just been a waste of time and people will ignore it and vote the same way [21:47:23] @Nalekshu but there is proof, you are not being ignored at all' [21:50:19] If you posted something to rebut some a claim but others continued to support the original then people probably weren't convinced with the rebuttal [21:51:23] But is it because the rebuttal is wrong, or because it is swept under the rug? [21:51:26] +1 [21:51:38] <:BanCatMH:766487714262155276> [21:51:42] <:BanHammerMH:766488025899073547> [21:51:47] you are not helping at all [21:51:47] Ban ban ban [21:52:08] stop you are not helping the situation at all turkiye [21:52:36] What is the situation in Turkey? [21:53:17] if it is earthquake (100€) i sent it with my family [21:53:31] @Cocopuff2018 ? [21:53:56] ur still not helping [21:54:01] Haaa, okey. Sorry [21:54:12] Correct [21:54:17] I'll also note that Hey Turkiye's vote only serves to further aggravate the situation by making hostile comments towards Naleksuh [21:54:17] Not help [21:55:03] Sorry for the rude comment, but that doesn't make things worse. [21:55:20] it sure does you are inflamming the situation [21:55:22] I'll delete my previous comment if it causes problems. [21:56:01] . [21:56:36] i would strongly advise you to delete the comment you made on meta [21:56:40] Now no problem, calm down [21:57:04] that comment is even more problematic than dmm's comment if such could be conicieved [21:57:07] Deleting votes is strongly discouraged; the proper practice is to strike them out to signify that it should be disregarded [21:57:30] Friend, I put parentheses as rude comments. Let those who take into account take it, those who do not take it, do not. [21:57:44] people have been formally sanctioned for less [21:57:53] ur comment does not help at all turkey [21:58:36] Could you please underline my comment in meta. Now the topic will be extended. I'll be out of here soon (from the computer) [21:59:15] Ok. Tali64³ will delete the comment soon [21:59:15] You mean strike it out? Underlining won't help any [21:59:25] stop pinging me [21:59:35] As I said above, the proper practice is to strike votes out [21:59:43] /s [21:59:49] do you have [22:00:03] I'm talking about it, get it. [22:00:25] Okey no problem [22:01:14] i just told you to not ping me [22:01:46] Don't delete the vote either. /sdo it, change it to per above. [22:02:01] Doing right now [22:02:09] The community decided to be the strongest support, it would not be right to delete the vote [22:02:33] Okey thank you very much [22:02:46] it seems a bit of a hassle anyway [22:02:47] Done [22:03:10] <:pupCoffeeMH:766487840694599711> [22:03:16] just turned off my pings [22:03:53] Okey, What now no problem, yes? [22:04:11] no problem ur blocked @Hey Türkiye [22:04:30] Blocked -_- bruh [22:04:42] it would be nice if you didn't [22:04:49] i blocked ya because you keep pinging me [22:05:51] Cocopuff2018, you don't get tags like this right now, don't lie if you say you keep throwing it even more. [22:05:58] A comments section has been added to the RfC, and I'd ask that Cocopuff2018 and Hey Turkiye take a break on that particular line conversation about pings and blocks. [22:06:06] I feel dumb, I still don't get it ... I did saw the retirement note on Raidarr's page, sad to see that again but you must have reasons, you are one the most chill and reasonable persons here man [22:06:14] thanks he is pinging me non stop [22:06:36] there are many factors but the above exchange and how much that has come to represent too much of miraheze is one of them [22:06:54] Ok, I was going to sleep soon. good night to you [22:07:03] 👋🏻 [22:07:35] miraheze cannot quash the biggest, simplest disruptions unless they are literally abuse of multiple accounts at which point my ability to address it is restricted by a broken legal structure [22:08:06] Retired.... sad 😦 [22:08:08] miraheze is broken and it's not getting fixed unless it is burned down and started over with the chafe eliminated as soon as it appears [22:08:21] it's sad that you retired again frankly [22:08:23] and that isn't going to happen so it isn't worth my time [22:08:33] so ur saying miraheze should fully restart/,' [22:08:37] I put too much in this godforsaken platform and for it I have gotten fairly little [22:08:52] only stress and unresolvable deeper problems [22:09:14] little thing? At least you won our love. [22:09:30] love, heh [22:09:37] Your actions played a very important role for Miraheze, raidarr, don't say that. [22:09:43] I’ve been apart of Miraheze for literally forever, and I will say it has definitely declined, and I’m also not 100% convinced it can make a full recovery unless very extreme changes are made [22:09:53] I tried to bring something and I failed to make it happen, simple as that [22:09:58] I take the lessons and I move on [22:10:07] <:xsob:912928935577276526> [22:10:15] 😦 [22:10:17] we cannot deal with the most elementary trolls or people who simply do not get it [22:10:26] Miraheze is your place too Raidarr [22:10:28] there is little in the way of meritocracy [22:10:35] good luck man [22:10:37] Sorry for your comment [22:11:00] that is why I left: because every corner is a new setback [22:11:05] but if you are clear about your decision, I wish you success, Raidarr. You have a nice way [22:11:19] there are many in the structure who are well meaning and simply lack leadership and I wish them well [22:11:32] To put it simply: Miraheze grew faster than it can simply handle, and we are now seeing the result [22:11:33] there are others who are too caught up in their pieces of the pie to do what's needed for the bigger picture [22:11:54] t&s is an archaic unaccountable institution [22:12:06] stewarding could not be organized despite my best efforts [22:12:07] good night everyone, I'll be having good ol' 5 hours of sleep [22:12:10] sre is a demonstrable shitshow [22:12:20] Good night [22:12:25] that is why I left, that is my rant, and now, that will be my leave [22:12:35] I'll make the bed now, it's 01:13 [22:12:39] 🥱 [22:12:45] Good night 👋🏻 [22:13:24] Alot of the issues arise from the fact we dont have the people to handle the size of Miraheze, and other is we still operate on alot of the ideas that we operated on back when I first joined years ago, when Miraheze was just a couple of servers and basically only a couple of large wikis [22:14:09] I definitely agree with the lack of volunteers; due to Raidarr's resignation, there are currently only 3 stewards [22:14:31] I’m not even talking about community roles, organizational roles and technically roles [22:15:13] We have a very lax ideals sometimes which is an issue [22:15:26] Wikimedia ideology doesn't fit here a lot of times [22:15:44] what we need is more staff for miraheze [22:15:57] I don’t know when it happened but at some point organzational roles and technical roles suffered a huge hit when it came to communication and then division of responsibilities fell apart [22:16:09] No but it would be a good start [22:16:15] We're discussing a lot about the issues with Miraheze, but not the solutions to those issues [22:16:17] Sadly staff, don't grow on tree [22:16:34] we can also use miraheze funds to hire staff for miraheze [22:16:36] Frankly, there isn’t any that would get people laughed all the way out the door [22:16:39] Competent users are hard to find [22:17:05] miraheze cannot afford to keep its lights on without begging for money at increasingly closer intervals, hiring will simply accellerate that death [22:17:16] there are no viable candidates for upper leadership [22:17:25] miraheze has never begged for money at all [22:17:29] that statement is false [22:17:35] Not directly no, they havent [22:17:40] every yearly splashed banner ad speaks otherwise [22:17:43] do not mince words coco [22:17:50] They're referring to the fundraiser efforts by less-generous terms. [22:18:26] if you want to hire staff then hire a well-designed core from the start, you can't hire out of this broken mess [22:18:31] I won’t lie, I know this last fundraiser was an “oh shit” moment [22:18:57] does anyone remember the merchendise idea to raise money for miraheze? [22:19:09] Hi everyone [22:19:12] somewhat but we did well this year [22:19:51] I'm from the Polytope discord server through Miratope bot on their server [22:20:03] have a look at next year, that'll be something [22:20:11] whatever's left by then [22:20:17] so it miraheze gonna ever come to an end or no [22:20:22] The bot says someone is gonna be banned so I check the bot and I follow this server [22:20:26] At this rate, eventually [22:20:32] Looking back at it, the John incident could've done permanent damage to Miraheze [22:20:35] do u suspect it will be soon [22:20:49] It could be a couple years from now, but I don’t know [22:20:52] I would disagree, it's not designed to be accountable - it's designed to keep the organisation on the right side of law and compliance [22:21:11] whats the point of us growing miraheze if its just gonna come to and end [22:21:16] Why shouldn’t a part of the organization be accountable? [22:21:17] we will all just switch to a self hosted wiki [22:21:59] In my opinion, not being transparent is a sign of something to hide [22:22:03] Well if everyone takes that attitude, it will for sure come to and end, and do it fast. [22:22:09] It's accountable to the Board, it can't be fully accountable to the community unfortunately due to the nature of the work involved [22:22:31] miraheze could run out of funds, what if system admin dont want to do system admin work anymore we will run out of volunteers at one point or another [22:22:40] @Owen Please look at ts@ as soon as possible, it is very important [22:22:58] Wouldn’t you consider that Conflict of Interest though, considering the fact some of the board are also T&S [22:23:15] and who is the board accountable to [22:23:18] the community? [22:23:21] not really [22:23:28] On member of the Board is in T&S [22:23:29] miraheze is coming to an end [22:23:42] we gotta all accept it [22:23:48] Cocopuff, this is your last and gentle warning to chill out. [22:23:52] And considering the size of the board that’s alot [22:23:55] Otherwise you'll be on a timeout [22:24:13] right because oversighting a publicly available WMF account and citing PII is compliant with the law? [22:24:29] it just seems like there is no ability for checks and balances [22:24:42] Data Protection Act 2018 [22:24:51] the right side of a hyper aggressive implementation of law maintaining frivolous sanctions against long dead cases such as that of brandon [22:24:52] fuck that [22:25:02] @Owen does miraheze have enough funds for atleast the next few years [22:25:03] please process my gdpr request and we can be done with this nonsense [22:26:12] no point discussing because it's done [22:26:15] This has to be done via TSPortal [22:26:18] you go your way [22:26:30] A rename of that size though will be a first though [22:26:32] email last I checked was a perfectly viable avenue, it was merely that tsp is more convenient [22:27:06] [1/2] Folks are understandably heated, but I'll have to ask that we reduce the temperature here. [22:27:06] [2/2] Seems like folks are already tilting that direction, which I appreciate. [22:27:08] Eh we’ve done so pretty big renames bedore [22:27:09] you want it by the book then by all means let us do it with what I understand to be the characteristically mirahezian bureaucratic formality [22:27:35] Technical restriction [22:27:45] At this point, the only solution may be to completely redesign the whole Miraheze system [22:27:48] self imposed, great job [22:27:55] which I am not opposed to [22:28:08] oh don't bother, you won't be able to design it and neither will virtually anyone in this room [22:28:25] now can we get this done [22:28:27] Please don't [22:28:29] miraheze needs to add more restrictions towards content policy [22:28:31] and not use broken implementations [22:28:34] Raidarr, as a favor to me, less please. [22:28:59] i'm not meaning to attack anyone, so if it comes across that way I apologize [22:29:01] but why less? [22:29:07] I don't know if my edits last after this [22:29:08] this conversation needs to be had [22:29:08] Well a request is needed via TSPortal or else the interface doesn't allow us to process anything [22:29:17] The conversation can be had without thorwing blame or aspersions [22:29:21] because I am very much miffed and my tone has significantly declined [22:29:21] Serverside script doesnt work? [22:29:22] miraheze is headed in a downwards spiral whether we like it or not [22:29:33] something needs to be done [22:29:37] Doesn't exist anymore to the best if my knowledge [22:29:53] Oh I know the issues [22:30:02] the fact that we are all here, right now, having this conversation proves that [22:30:06] Whenever I edit math mode, it turns into tag [22:30:21] If you're editing in Visual Editor, this is likely why [22:30:23] However after I click the done button, it'll become normal [22:30:25] this convsersation needs to calm down [22:30:26] tsportal has a lovely 500 so what we've done is locked down a process that worked perfectly well before by email to a thorougly undertested webapp that seems to have been down half the time previous I've directed people to it [22:32:11] I've had to awkwardly work around underage cases because tsportal has been down when local administrators were directed to use it, that doesn't sound very functional to me [22:32:58] One thing that would help Miraheze is checks and balances, but I'm struggling to think about how exactly that would be executed [22:33:35] frankly, we have a lack of volunteers [22:33:48] but that isn't really the root of this [22:33:55] we can pay people to work for miraheze [22:33:58] we got the funds [22:34:09] No, we don't [22:34:19] im sure we do [22:34:42] This year, Miraheze needed twice the funds to survive because of soaring energy costs [22:34:49] please note I have struck Naleksuh's vote from the oppose section and moved it to the comments section after consultation with a Steward on the matter [22:35:55] there has never been a rule that disallows people from opposing their own ban [22:36:19] speaking to Reception123, I was told that it isn't a vote but rather a defense [22:36:40] the process is not formatted in a way that filters a defense to its own prominent section [22:36:43] because of Naleksuh's status as blocked before the CBAN [22:36:56] he is still bannned, the only reason he is unbanned is to defend himself [22:37:00] Exactly, there's nothing in the policy on global bans that states that the subject of the RfC cannot vote [22:37:06] he can defend himself but not vote [22:37:13] simply discount the vote [22:37:16] it's very easy [22:37:31] it won't change the outcome regardless at current trajectory [22:37:35] the message I have gotten from Reception123 is that he may say whatever he needs to defend himself but it doesn't count as an official vote [22:37:42] as such, moved to comments [22:37:48] ugh [22:37:54] That is not an explicit permission to move things [22:38:09] Now that I think about it, vague policies are another issue [22:38:12] I don't know why I bother when the subject of the process tries to cut behind my back with abuses [22:38:59] no but precedent has been historically to move non-votes to comments [22:39:06] unless it's a response to a vote [22:39:31] @Owen I am confused, raidarr was T/S banned? [22:39:44] raidarr will be because he requested so [22:39:45] he sent a GDPR request, which is not a T/S ban [22:39:57] it was probably done manually because the process is broken [22:40:11] which is good enough for me and I take my leave accordingly when I affirm it is done [22:40:17] no, the section mentioned was Clause 8 of the ToU [22:40:28] whatever, the outcome is what matters [22:40:36] [1/7] ``` [22:40:36] [2/7] Miraheze may modify, restrict, or prohibit your access to Miraheze services and Wikis at any time under Miraheze's sole discretion. Common reasons include: [22:40:36] [3/7] Sending enough requests to Miraheze servers to degrade the service of others; or [22:40:37] [4/7] Conducting any activity on Miraheze which is illegal in the United Kingdom; or [22:40:37] [5/7] Excessive violation of this or other Miraheze policies; [22:40:37] [6/7] Wikis hosted by Miraheze may modify, restrict, or prohibit your access to their respective Wikis under their respective policies. [22:40:38] [7/7] ``` [22:40:41] The action taken is not a mistake [22:41:05] I think the community would appreciate an explanation for a ban of a former Steward [22:41:21] in a trust and safety manner when the user in question had requested a GDPR instead [22:41:25] I agree [22:41:31] especially regarding Clause 8 [22:41:52] <@805245448985509908>, any opposition to copying the guides currently as subpages under your user elsewhere before vanishing, etc? [22:42:18] he was banned' [22:42:41] what the hell [22:42:50] this is all drama being made [22:42:56] for the love of god [22:43:13] Raidarr won't be vanished anymore [22:43:16] He was just T&S banned [22:43:34] What does a GDPR request have to do with a T&S ban? [22:43:54] While I can't discuss the full circumstances, this relates to misuse of private information + breach of conditions relating to a partial service ban [22:44:13] Is it within my rights as a community member to request a 3rd party review of this ban by the board [22:44:26] I second this [22:44:35] You are entitled to make this request [22:44:42] this is all drama being made for the love of god can it end [22:44:48] How do i do so? [22:45:04] but frankly I have doubts on the validity of the review due to the banning user being the chair of the board [22:45:05] Email board@miraheze.org [22:45:29] if i email you how long to get a reply [22:45:36] I would ask that @Owen recuse himself from any such review and allow Void to undertake the process [22:46:07] The decision to impose initial restrictions was not my sole decision, and the decision to ban was not my sole decision either. The review would not have my input in except to provide context [22:46:31] Whom was all invovled then [22:46:55] What could be done is have T&S actions be able to be appealed by the community (i.e., an RfC), and have the board examine the circumstances regarding the T&S action and decide whether it should be undone [22:46:57] Then I would ask for an explanation in full, and an emergency board meeting. I don't wish to have this stalled until whenever it's next scheduled [22:47:29] we've actually been down this train before, and I support it but according to Owen it isn't possible for legal reasons [22:48:20] Any of the other two directors can call a meeting if they feel it warrants it [22:49:05] well I think one director just resigned, didn't they? [22:49:21] To have this possible, we'd need to release some sensitive information which we may not legally be allowed to release to allow for an informed decision to be made [22:49:49] no fuck this, I want an explanation for what happened to <@805245448985509908> in full [22:50:04] they would violate the NDA [22:50:07] The whole situation is so sad and I mourn for Miraheze [22:50:19] We're going to be losing quite a few volunteers shortly [22:50:20] I do not understand how the board and T/S avoid accountability every time on account of theoretically not breaching an NDA [22:50:44] who the hell turned on Slow mode [22:50:51] See my messages above, it relates to misuse of private information by them [22:51:02] could slowmode be removed.....most here are immune but I'm not so it's hard [22:51:26] plz turn slowmode off its crap [22:52:00] @Owen Is there any minimum age requirement to sign an NDA? I may consider becoming a Steward due to Agent's resignation and the fact that we may be left with 2 stewards [22:52:07] but in what context? and you can do this without violating NDA. and which T/S members or board were in support of a T/S ban for raidarr, as you implied there were multiple [22:52:23] are u resigning steward @Agent [22:52:29] Unfortunately I must [22:52:58] why and when you are resigning and why do you must resign @Agent [22:53:03] @Owen Can you send the context my way (or to the board as a whole, unsure if CosmicAlpha will remain around long enough to review) [22:53:18] I am a fanatic for Miraheze but I do not believe it is tenable to continue when a user can so severely abuse the system to effectively bully a user out of the project [22:53:24] I wish you all the best [22:53:36] I fully guarantee you can name names without violating NDA [22:53:37] MIRAHEZE IS DFALLING APART [22:53:43] Don't start. [22:54:02] Will send across in full tomorrow as not at my computer, will shoot brief context across now [22:54:09] @Agent I wish u the best of luck on ur journey! [22:54:39] I wish Miraheze the best and I hope Reception and Void can navigate these dark times [22:55:15] @Agent see DMs if that's alright? [22:55:20] are u leaving for good @Agent [22:55:46] I'm considering becoming a Steward to help take off the load; 2 is not enough for a platform that has over 200,000 daily users [22:56:00] still too early IMHO [22:56:32] Being quite blunt, I do not believe you have the abilities needed [22:56:52] I might run....we'll have to see [22:57:02] neither do you for now [22:57:09] Is there anything specific I can improve on? [22:57:23] ur skills [22:57:25] You're quick to overreact, instigate, and infer negativity [22:57:25] though I don't even know how I would rectify the shit that's happened here - there is a fundamentally broken system [22:57:35] You should take time before doomsaying [22:57:57] @Agent i know ur joking about resiging [22:58:17] I wouldn't be this blunt if I weren't going to [22:58:26] @Agent see DMs if you can, on your own time of course just....advice would be appreciated immensely [22:58:42] just give it another chance @Agent [22:59:35] I'll look into that later [23:00:02] @Agent are u still staying at miraheze tho [23:00:16] no [23:00:35] i wish u luck with ur future @Agent [23:01:09] I urge you to check my dm [23:01:27] and then I also wanted to say to Naleksuh: fuck you. if that gets me muted for violating the VCP, whatever. I couldn't care less. you have destroyed this project and so many people's care and trust in it. i hope you're happy with what you've done with yourself. fuck you. [23:01:42] thats too far calm down [23:02:21] Brandon stop [23:02:49] nel is not the reason why is resigning so calm down [23:02:51] we've all put so much hard work into this project, Agent and CosmicAlpha immensely. for you to destroy that....wow. i'm going to take a few minutes to chill, but I hope you're happy. [23:03:21] stop brandon [23:26:28] Are u resigning t&s @Agent [23:26:44] He is [23:26:59] I was already defrocked so yes [23:26:59] Is it because or the whole nel situation [23:27:17] Does thie have to do with nel [23:29:15] ur resigning @administrator [23:33:39] Why was radiarr banned [23:34:06] Owen stated that it was due to the mishandling of personal information, but he hasn't really elaborated on that [23:35:28] Ah [23:53:37] Let me guess: Naleksuh's the cause of all of this. [23:53:57] Yes, I am the cause of everything that is bad [23:54:01] You are [23:54:01] Now please stop tagging me and leave me alone [23:54:02] I agree [23:54:08] Thank you for admitting this [23:54:29] I appreciate that as well [23:54:59] I haven't seen the server this active since the John incident [23:55:29] Everyone loves drama [23:55:30] How sad