[02:56:58] Can someone link me to that diff where @DarkMatterMan4500 made the monkey comparison? I've read a few DMM4500 !votes I'd characterize as doozies, but that one sounds like it might top them all :p [03:04:13] https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_Comment/Global_ban_for_Naleksuh&diff=prev&oldid=337727&diffmode=source Here you go. [03:04:17] It is accountable, to its governing body, the Board. @Owen can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Miraheze Limited Complaints Policy extends to Trust and Safety [03:04:35] Coincidentally, I was about to link it at the same time you did [03:05:22] To be fair, I only made that monkey comparison because of the way Naleksuh was attacking people. I didn't really mean to come off as harsh towards him. [03:08:38] You are wayyy behind, I have already submitted a proposal to the board [03:10:54] [1/2] As a former member of the Trust and Safety team, while I can't speak to the specifics of specific cases, I can assure you it was not a 'frivolous sanction' nor was it the original sanction. Cases are routinely reviewed to ensure only the minimum sanction is employed to ensure Miraheze Limited is in compliance with UK law at all times, and to protect the [03:10:54] [2/2] board, who have a duty of care to Miraheze Limited. Being a board member is not a light responsibility, by any stretch [03:14:32] [1/2] Perhaps I was pretty harsh when I made the monkey comparison towards Naleksuh, but it was mainly because of how speechless I was when I learned that he still continued this. I was on my own wiki and just casually minding my own business, until I was notified by email from Universal Omega in regards to his ban. I looked at a lot of evidence, and I wasn't surprised at al [03:14:32] [2/2] l, not one bit that he was acting like that. [03:15:33] Anyway, I'll talk more later, as I have a long day this weekend. [03:20:23] That doesn't sound that terrible of a !vote then [03:25:00] Sorry for delay in response, it's been a busy day. Thanks for taking the time to write an apology, it's an emotionally fraught situation and folks were a bit heated. [05:20:04] dmehus, if you're still around could you PM me? I don't mean to be too much but if you get a chance and you're still around. [06:20:59] Complaints Policy extends to everyone in SRE & T&S relating to conduct [15:13:10] I can say that the sanction is now frivolous [15:13:30] It’s been years and the sanction is still employed with no hope of it ever being removed [15:13:33] No matter the concur [15:14:13] It’s excessive and stupid considering the net gain I’ve brought Miraheze over the past year [15:14:27] but whatever, I guess. just another element of a broken system. [15:26:42] @BWM: without going into details, your sanctions were not frivolous [15:27:30] the fact that the sanctions remain today is frivolous [15:28:53] If it was my choice, T&S sanctions would be permanent and only given in serious cases. That would require much stronger levels of process than we have now though below. [15:29:25] Partial T&S bans wouldn't exist either [15:31:10] T&S should in my opinion be the absolute last resort and reserved for situations where the risk is extremely high [15:31:23] So yours would have probably been handled by another method [16:32:00] what did i miss? [16:32:20] Raidarr got T&S banned and several users quit as a result [16:34:21] sigh [16:34:43] such is life [16:35:01] one day all is good, the next everything you ever loved goes to shit [16:35:26] welp, meta is gonna be a fun read [16:35:44] Ooof, you really missed a lot then. [16:36:25] ive been inactive for a week or more :p [16:36:27] Another user nominated me for GS, so take a look at that if you can [16:37:20] The Lord and Lady want to teach me something? [16:38:18] You mean explain what happened? [16:42:56] this is a fucking headache [16:43:06] it's a shitshow, yeah [16:43:11] It is too hot [16:43:21] I need more tea [16:43:30] not the time [16:44:17] _hands around Ava the Avocado plushie to give free hugs_ [16:44:44] we still aren't sure what's going to happen with Miraheze. We have money, but that means nothing without anyone working the servers, serving as steward, and all that [16:45:00] it seems like every month or two, drama just appears [16:45:19] I and Amanda have filed requests to join SRE, but the current Engineering Manager is on "break", so we don't know what's going to be of that [16:46:00] im honestly done with this [16:46:15] Please don't tell me you're quitting as well [16:46:21] Orange_Star: I really can't see a way forward tbh [16:46:35] 😦 [16:46:49] I just feel awful. [16:47:07] mostly undecided [16:49:25] Miraheze just feels like its flip-flopping between "okay" and "shit this aint good" [16:50:02] Stuff seemed ok back when I joined on October 2022 [16:50:32] It was with the cabal conspiracy shit on the beggining of the year that everything went downhill and never really recovered [16:54:00] I obviously don't know how SRE was before UO left, but all I can say is there was no feeling of comradery there, we were mostly just a bunch of people that just did their own thing and ''sometimes'' worked together on some stuff, but that was about it [16:54:10] as a 2020 user, October 2022 was not ok but not bad [16:56:14] everything was done in a timely manner before UO left [16:58:12] UO definitely did a lot of the tasks, him leaving was a very heavy blow. On my first request to join SRE I tried to cover for him but I think in hindsight I can say I wasn't up to the challenge. [17:01:57] Orange_Star: well we don't even have a phab for your request at the moment [17:02:28] i feel like retiring at this point [17:02:56] RhinosF1: if phab comes back from the dead my request is https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T10935 [17:04:27] there's no point in staying, this year and even a bit of last year proves that organizationally, miraheze is unstable [17:04:32] and https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T10931 is Amanda's request [17:05:38] Fiddlestix: You're not wrong, just saying. People going and leaving like this is not a sign of stability [17:37:22] Sanctions are appealable [17:42:49] Yes, but according to the official T&S policy (https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Trust_and_Safety/Policy), sanctions are only appealable if it's determined that T&S made a mistake [17:43:03] IMO, sanctions should also be appealable if they're no longer necessary [17:45:25] The Board made the decision on that policy, amendments are welcome to be proposed to the Board who control the policy by which Trust and Safety operates by. An appeal on the basis it's no longer necessary will be considered under 'new information' [17:46:26] But passage of time is not enough of a reason when the bar for action would have been high enough already [17:47:18] For example, someone repeatedly violating the law with no demonstrable evidence of changing their understanding wouldn't be appealable on the basis time has passed [17:48:08] If let's say someone is able to evidenced they've changed their behaviour and that directly addresses the issue, an appeal may be considered on a risk assessment basis [17:48:52] It's also possible to appeal on the basis the community weren't given the appropriate opportunity to enforce policy or act [17:49:08] So T&S isn't used just to usurp community processes [18:00:55] Given the nature of what T&S should be handling, time passed is not strong enough [18:01:49] T&S shouldn't be acting in many cases where indefinite bans aren't needed for good reason [18:03:48] [1/2] So. Raidarr got banned, numerous users quit, and Miraheze's future is uncertain (again?), hence the recommendation of downloading an XML dump on Twitter. [18:03:48] [2/2] Am I understanding things correctly? [18:04:11] Yes [18:04:19] In a nutshell, yes [18:04:21] In very simple form [18:04:38] For reference, we've had 8 full investigations, and only 1 has resulted in a ban of any sort (full or partial) [18:05:03] Were all of the others no action? [18:05:21] Or something other than any sort of ban/restriction [18:05:40] And for clarity, I meant acting under their powers given by Section 8 [18:17:10] Most would have been no action, probably 2 would have been something like content removal [18:17:50] So I'm pretty on the line for actions against people [18:18:07] There's not much between bans and nothing [18:18:13] Which wouldn't be expected [18:18:31] That is what I would expect though [18:18:44] Ye [18:18:52] It's in line with some expectations [18:19:07] @Owen do T&S do any kind of transparency report [18:19:18] Internet is toxic and can deteriorate someone in real life. [18:19:26] If T&S exists to keep MH LTD away from the courts, I would expect that the times they do take action they would go all out, not much point with playing around with stuff like IBANS [18:19:42] Well some actions have been partial [18:19:50] Which I disagree with [18:20:15] It's on the radar, all data is stored in a transparency report format so will one backdated [18:20:15] Like @BWM's current one [18:20:24] Could it be done speedily? [18:20:42] Orange_Star: I wouldn't say away from the courts only [18:20:55] It's next on my list to work when I get some time [18:20:58] In some cases they exist to bring MH to courts [18:21:09] Or at least legal action [18:21:23] But it's the people dealing with the most serious of cases [18:21:56] So their action should be in response to legal demands or likely legal demands or in cases where MH is close to taking legal action [18:22:26] @Owen one last annoying question, has any T&S cases been referred to the police? [18:22:32] Or an external agency [18:23:19] I can think of 3 for law enforcement before I left [18:23:21] Maybe 4 [18:23:28] Only 1 related to a user though [18:25:55] None have reached that point [18:26:16] How many times has section 7.4 been used? [18:26:45] By T&S, never [18:26:53] I was wondering how possible it was to at least appoint a second T&S member to co-approve decisions and at least make it not a one-man decision [18:27:08] @Owen am I allowed to state the number I've done? [18:27:43] Very possible, it's just there's never been much interest in the role when advertised [18:27:47] luciferianthomes: I would say very, very unlikely [18:28:22] It's on my radar to readvertise given Agents departure [18:28:43] You would need someone with an NDA, which is already a very small amount of people to begin with [18:29:07] Though I too would like to be someone else with Owen, so good luck with the search Owen [18:29:14] *would like there to be [18:29:28] I don't like to compare Miraheze to Wikimedia, but there must be at least two CU or OS at a time to make sure a decision can be reversed [18:29:51] I have no comment on the actual events or decisions whatsoever since I am unfamiliar with what exactly happened [18:30:19] Technically we hav the same rule here [18:30:31] we just never have had local CU and OS [18:30:31] but one-man teams should never make any binding decisions [18:30:53] T&S is one role I'd be willing to see candidates never before affiliated with us [18:31:11] T&S experience is more needed than community affiliation [18:31:21] re Orange_Star, I mean any team for decisions needs at least two members to be actually functional [18:31:29] not only just CU and OS [18:31:43] Most WMF T&S staff aren't even publicly named now and don't have WMF staff wiki accounts [18:31:57] well hopefully there will be a new T&S member with Owen soon [18:32:00] fingers crossed [18:32:05] it doesn't matter if they are even named at all [18:32:39] as long as there exists more than one natural person on a site-affecting decision, I'm fine with it [18:32:45] (procedurally) [18:33:09] The Board will be consulted where possible in the absence of a 2nd person [18:33:23] Better [18:33:25] As the Board also hold T&S decision making authority [21:33:26] [1/2] @Tali64 our story is just beginning lol... [21:33:26] [2/2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhEPT3FEAk?t=4s