[00:04:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to felenov> off to build hmrc.miraheze.org brb
[00:20:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230311949812895825/image.png?ex=6632dc4a&is=6620674a&hm=dd8b64397dcfeed33b3d9e3542e68543e08302279824211c5e9094a6877222f0&
[00:22:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to felenov> Steward?
[00:22:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> also minceraft sightings
[00:37:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> mienfrarf
[00:39:51] <PixDeVl>	 tfarcenim
[02:44:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> [1/2] just noticed they all say "APP" now
[02:44:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230348252705062932/image.png?ex=6632fe1a&is=6620891a&hm=f70d24aa13e56d4ebf254c92121880dbe346bdf80d4e64c78ca8f5e968328c45&
[02:45:21] <PixDeVl>	 Yup
[02:45:37] <PixDeVl>	 I saw the preview screenshot a while ago but forget
[02:45:45] <PixDeVl>	 :/ discord moment
[02:47:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Ig it's not horrible but it's kind of pointless
[02:48:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> It's just not necessary
[02:48:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> feels kinda weird calling them apps instead of bots
[02:49:03] <PixDeVl>	 I'm sure there's a PR reason
[02:49:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Yeah
[02:49:09] <PixDeVl>	 Eh
[02:49:20] <PixDeVl>	 At least the new stuff for devs has been pretty cool
[02:49:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to PixDeVl> Well it's because bots do more now, with slash commands and being able to use them in DMs etc
[02:49:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Really they are closer to apps or add-ons than chatbots now
[02:49:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> But I still think the rename is just kind of annoying
[02:50:18] <PixDeVl>	 They expanded the UI kit to have text now and images(that sounds boring lmao) and user installed apps.
[02:50:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> People would know what they mean regardless so it's off-putting for most og Discord users
[02:50:44] <PixDeVl>	 The activities SDK as well, excited to see what's made from that.
[02:50:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Yeah I was going to say that
[02:51:33] <PixDeVl>	 I'm waiting here for my wrapper library to add support for user apps
[03:20:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to felenov> theres miracraft???
[03:21:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to anpang54> Haha html go <brrrrrr>
[03:21:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to emicraftnoob> There is no minecraft.
[03:22:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to felenov> oh
[03:31:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> lol
[03:44:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Just like the cabal, there is no minecraft on Miraheze.
[03:44:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> [1/3] MIRAHEZE
[03:44:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> [2/3] WHY DO YOU CODE WITH 8 SPACE INDENTS
[03:44:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> [3/3] AHHHHH
[03:45:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> why does miraheze use 8 space indents
[03:46:24] <PixDeVl>	 why not
[03:50:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> so much wasted space
[03:51:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> 3.14-space indents are the best
[03:51:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> [1/2] also
[03:51:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230364975885713459/Screenshot_20240418_105039_Chrome.png?ex=66330dad&is=662098ad&hm=1334e85100b997fb533dfac4022ef4fb8587c2c475ec02b9e81d9b8c1cd137a2&
[03:51:23] <PixDeVl>	 hm
[03:53:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230365624291692615/Screenshot_20240418_105339_Chrome.png?ex=66330e47&is=66209947&hm=1f220655402833fbad18b1a5da0be92b43527595595ab1d226bd5193f43fb179&
[04:06:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> literally, this isnt inspect element
[04:08:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I don't see the problem with it
[04:08:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> It looks cool
[04:37:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] Why is it that everyone who comes to Miraheze (and really most places online) and doesn't speak very good English is usually either Chinese or Japanese? I've never seen someone speaking Spanish, French, Vietnamese, Swedish, Romanian, Korean, etc. (just naming random languages) but there are people all the time who ask for help in very broken English but write the rest i
[04:37:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] n Japanese or Chinese
[04:38:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> There was one person in #support who I forgot the name of that spoke some other language that I don't remember the name of but it wasn't a Japonic or Sinitic descendant language but I haven't seen anyone else
[04:42:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> [1/2] not a language expert but from my observation, their part of the net is big enough that there's no need to use something that is international and mainly Eng speaking or Eng only
[04:42:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> [2/2] a lot of Russian don't know English, but have no or barely any need to go out ru net
[04:43:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> while Instagram and the likes offer organic Russian UI and support
[04:44:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> on top of that you can add the firewalls
[04:44:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> which is not applicable to Japan tho, but again, it's big enough to be somewhat on its own
[04:47:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> when I got into tumblr it was incredibly hard to make people go w/ me over there, because it's so ragingly English lol, there were very few Russians back then and moatly because they saw as better platform for art posting than DA and as a place of international exposure
[04:48:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> nowadays I see quite a lot of Russians on tumblr, but obviously it's because of Insta and Twitter blocking
[04:50:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> learning new lang is always either because of circumstances (work, emigration, etc) or pure interest
[05:21:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> hi im thai
[05:22:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54, replying to solodayheavenofficial> because those people can speak english good
[05:23:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> 90% of sweden speaks english so why would they need to use broken english and swedish
[05:24:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> meanwhile only 0.9% of china speaks english
[05:24:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> Wait it's that litle?
[05:24:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I knew not many do but I'm surprised only .9%
[05:25:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> wikipedia says so
[05:26:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> wikipedia says that
[05:28:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Interesting
[05:30:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [1/9] I assume you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population
[05:30:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [2/9] It's not very well-maintained so the 0.9 figure could be off
[05:30:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [3/9] > This list may be sorted by column by clicking on the column header.
[05:30:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [4/9] > 
[05:30:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [5/9] > Some numbers have been calculated by Wikipedia editors by mixing data from different sources; figures not attributed to sources and given with a date should be treated with caution.
[05:30:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [6/9] > In most sources, the results shown are of people who say that they can speak English, while that was not verified; which means the actual number of English speakers could be higher or lower
[05:30:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [7/9] > This article needs additional citations for verification. (January 2022)
[05:30:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [8/9] > This article's factual accuracy is disputed. (January 2022)
[05:30:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to anpang54> [9/9] > This article needs to be updated. The reason given is: the country list heavily cites outdated sources. (January 2022)
[05:30:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> yeah
[05:31:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I also noticed the page is outright missing many countries, including Japan and South Korea among others
[05:31:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <anpang54> the china count references to cambridge
[05:32:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Ah I see
[05:43:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> they have no need to learn English unless it's really forced
[05:43:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> learning in schools doesn't count
[05:43:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> because frankly, kids hate schools lol
[05:44:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I had French as foreign lang in school, and I honestly liked it, but aside from me and one girl everybody hated it and we were constantly helping them lol
[06:07:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I like languages because language is just cool
[06:07:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> You can really understand a lot more cultures and people if you know more languages
[06:08:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Also it's incredible how many great coding resources and libraries I've found where the documentation is written mostly or entirely in Chinese
[06:17:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] really wonder who wrote this algorithm, 99% sure filipino does in fact NOT have any kana characters in it
[06:17:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230401688674893824/image.png?ex=66332fde&is=6620bade&hm=11b90c6a8f91e449a2a33046325b4a1b332fb3974f9c6b45fbb1a318d77586ab&
[06:17:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> ke<dont know>uko<i think so or zo>
[06:17:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Probably not so
[06:17:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Gonna look it up
[06:17:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Oh it's so
[06:33:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <metal_pail> People in the mainland of China learn English from an early age because of compulsory education (the level varies from person to person, but most people with compulsory education know very simple English), but we hardly ever use it.
[06:41:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to solodayheavenofficial> absolutely
[12:29:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [1/2] Good morning guys
[12:29:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230495503469379654/Screenshot_20240413_223645_YouTube.jpg?ex=6633873d&is=6621123d&hm=e89d528e5388d545fa7bad9639a3b66e838e7b6b299dde370bf1a9920cb7f423&
[12:31:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [1/2] Good morning guys
[12:31:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [2/2] https://youtu.be/6CHs4x2uqcQ
[14:33:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> Still thinking about Vector 2022 vs Vector 2010 vs Timeless
[14:48:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <ooyama1997> https://youtu.be/5a09yJU-mCI
[14:53:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] oh they forgot to change one part
[14:53:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230531760283193396/image.png?ex=6633a901&is=66213401&hm=88cbf6d43a2fc4d3effaedb08e102a0ced87161bb0f9e6d572002f5a02e6b2fe&
[14:57:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> [1/2] Still thinking about Vector 2022 vs Vector 2010 vs Timeless
[14:57:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> [2/2] Really considering swiching to Vector 2022, should I?
[15:09:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to theburningfirethatscorchessouls> I personally don't like the skin very much
[15:09:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Consider Cosmos instead, it's my favorite skin
[15:09:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Dislike cosmos right now
[15:09:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Citizen is also good
[15:09:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to theburningfirethatscorchessouls> Ah I see
[15:09:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Dunno then
[15:10:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> Would have to redo css if I swiched
[18:27:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to solodayheavenofficial> We should also put ads on Miraheze, make Orain social, add a sidebar and promote random articles from other wikis on MH wikis if you are going to use the cosmos skin and turn the site into a free benchmark for low end devices, might as well add a video player and AI summaries.(if you don't get it then it's for the better)
[18:43:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> common man, Cosmos is just Oasis if it was cool
[18:44:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230589701321130014/image.png?ex=6622bb78&is=662169f8&hm=e9ff873b95cc0519d98cfbb6b404eeb42825238a743936fc6800c8c4fba97211&
[18:45:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> I am still to add babel info
[18:45:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> I am starting to like Vector 2022's menus and fixed wideness
[18:46:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to felenov> sorry I got struck by depression
[18:46:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> I can handle Ru-En-De translations on meta
[18:47:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> and other wiki commitments
[18:47:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> you can ask on Meta admin noticeboard
[18:47:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> for [[Meta:Translators]]
[18:47:37] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:Translators
[18:47:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:Translators>
[18:48:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> I want to avoid turning my MH meta account into a instance of hatshop but I will get around to requesting translator
[19:01:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Also, can we force all people with some roles to add babel so there is a centralized list of who speaks what
[19:03:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> Сейчас прочитаю доки и отправлю
[20:15:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64> I've got an idea for a really unorthodox account system. Usernames are randomly generated and consist of 8 characters [a-z0-9] (any user may set a custom display name); passwords are also randomly generated and consist of an 8-digit checksum and a string of characters [a-z0-9] whose decimal value is that of the checksum
[20:19:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao, replying to anpang54> Interestingly I'm a Chinese local and I speak English
[20:20:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao> [1/2] Am I look good?
[20:20:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230613962920296558/4841C81FF86AD12B288C85DB6CEA0744.mp4?ex=6633f590&is=66218090&hm=190b74172c60efe38e0abd272c49a713032ab361cbed8fa4d1ae48dc8ba7e3ae&
[20:20:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao, replying to solodayheavenofficial> As a Chinese speaking English fluently I can tell you, the reason is because Chinese people often get isolated from Western countries
[20:21:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao> All they get is Chinese language which can be seen almost everywhere online and offline
[20:21:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao> This is in effort of brainwashing of the government.
[20:21:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <li.ao> So guys am I look good? Please leave a message, and I'll go to bed for now. See you the next day
[20:23:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> yep, looking good
[20:23:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> better than me at least 😂
[20:24:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Did I enter "Tinderchat"?
[20:24:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> 😄
[20:30:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Tinderheze
[21:06:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> LAAAAAAAAAABSTER
[21:08:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I think I'm a little behind
[21:08:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> yay, Labster
[21:08:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> yay
[21:08:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> check if you're live
[21:08:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1wcWLHFJpg
[21:09:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> fuck it im moving to my big tv
[21:12:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cibryll> I always read "Legroom" as "le groom". 😓
[21:12:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> SUL3 MENTION
[21:12:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> 😂
[21:13:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> no way
[21:13:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> was anything said about that??
[21:13:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to cibryll> ## Tf
[21:15:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> le bride
[21:16:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to agentisai> “They were right” I died inside a bit
[21:16:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cibryll> Lmao this reminds me of Genshin censoring all but the first three letters of "therapist" because 💀
[21:16:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> And ever since then I cannot read "therapist" normally
[21:17:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Crat Kamakaz mention
[21:17:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It is beautiful labster
[21:18:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Here there he dragons
[21:18:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> might watch later
[21:18:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It’s great labster was the best choice
[21:18:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> The rename.
[21:19:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> ..
[21:19:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Welp. @agentisai so it’s official?
[21:19:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Love to see them overriding and ignoring strong community opposition
[21:19:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Now I think the fundraiser can no longer claim that they are community run and democratic
[21:19:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> This is a lot like the WMF
[21:19:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to pixldev> Well wikimedia has no choice really i guess
[21:20:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> If you're on about SUL3
[21:20:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Clearly Miraheze board has been taking notes
[21:20:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to originalauthority> No the rebranding
[21:20:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Why whats rebranding
[21:21:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> The fame
[21:21:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> ..
[21:21:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Miraheze being renamed to WikiTide after Labster asked on both Discord and Meta and there was near unamous opposition each time
[21:21:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Have you been living under a rock
[21:21:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Oh dear
[21:21:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Looks like the board really aspires to be like the WMF
[21:21:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to pixldev> Yes
[21:21:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Its the opression from the tories
[21:22:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It seems the board has decided
[21:22:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to originalauthority> Bro even people at the reception wikis were talking about it
[21:22:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Unless the RfF is still gonna be considered
[21:22:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> It is not
[21:22:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> It didn't go through way they want so it's going to be ignored
[21:23:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> This really paints a bad light on Miraheze, especially given that the fundraiser claims every year that decisions are made based on community votes as a democracy
[21:23:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> fuck
[21:24:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Atp you could argue that the fundraiser is deceptive advertising
[21:24:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @agentisai can we get an official statement on this. Is this the absolute final community opinion considered decision
[21:24:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Yeah erm idk this will not be popular with the electorate
[21:24:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> This really makes the current slide hit wrong
[21:24:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> If the board made this decision I am definitely changing my vote from support to oppose because this is absolutely not something the board should do when the community opposes it
[21:25:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230630198215704747/IMG_3478.jpg?ex=663404af&is=66218faf&hm=cf4f5ce841576cf2102b2e413fca59504db9deb0896e28d14f57b22bb4afdeec&
[21:25:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Wait John had a heart attack what
[21:25:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> Ok good
[21:25:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> It still says Miraheze
[21:25:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> So no arbitrary WikiTide branding?
[21:26:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> This is the recap history of wiki games
[21:26:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Farms*
[21:26:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> ah
[21:27:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Wait
[21:27:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> THEY ISED IT
[21:27:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230630856687751251/IMG_3479.jpg?ex=6634054c&is=6621904c&hm=5d12fd44ec36e407e7f1ad5085e64f45c46fa3110605cdaf6165c2830539cec9&
[21:27:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @raidarr your story now lol
[21:28:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> lol that's cool
[21:28:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I like the Fandom logo being tiny, very good
[21:29:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Hm
[21:29:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess, replying to pixldev> wikizilla :ThinkerMH:
[21:29:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> After a huge amount of debate the community voted to merge into WikiTide
[21:29:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Mmmmmmm
[21:30:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> No lmaooo
[21:30:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> They voted to merge WikiTide into Miraheze
[21:30:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Board is just being deceptive now
[21:30:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> No
[21:30:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It’s correct in this caps
[21:30:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> This discussion is about the owner
[21:30:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> MHL, MHF
[21:30:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Oh I see
[21:30:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> And legal owner wise we did move to tide
[21:31:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to pixldev> hey thats my fake wikifarm
[21:31:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to emicraftnoob> Wait they fell for a fake wikifarm lmaooo 💀
[21:31:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> We gonna be ripping and tearing into lab over the rename already
[21:31:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to solodayheavenofficial> No he said this was from April fools days
[21:31:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Oh ok lol
[21:32:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Lay off easy on labster for the rest
[21:32:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> We already gonna be badgering
[21:33:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> where is the rfc for the rename btw?
[21:33:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @.labster What do you about vetting volunteers under 18
[21:33:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to originalauthority> There was none. That why we pissed
[21:33:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to originalauthority> There is no RfC; it was an RfF for whatever reason
[21:34:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> There was a request for feedback on the CN
[21:34:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Dang labster going off to adverting his sponsor lol
[21:34:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Question time
[21:34:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] http://wikizilla.rf.gd/Meta/WikiZilla
[21:34:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] NOTICE
[21:35:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to tali64> The RfF and the Discord discussion both led to near unanimous opposition
[21:36:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> But Labster did not create an RfC because he does not care about those
[21:36:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Should I ask in stream chat if it’s officially going forward?
[21:36:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> sure
[21:36:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> and point out that the community DID NOT approve it and had opposed it when asked
[21:36:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I don’t want to bring bad optics to us this publicly if there’s community dissent in this since that kinda defeats the point
[21:37:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to pixldev> what is the minute when this
[21:37:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> And questions are iver
[21:37:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> well rip
[21:37:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @.labster aight buddy… time for the jury
[21:37:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> True
[21:37:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> That was it?
[21:37:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Also they mentioned me Ro and someone else being fans in the comments LMAO
[21:37:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [1/2] yooooooooooooooooo
[21:37:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230633415817171035/Captura_de_Pantalla_2024-04-18_a_las_3.37.22_p.m..png?ex=663407ae&is=662192ae&hm=e11545c5dff4fcd08559ce2e153e952159144635b042176758e622a092b0b4c7&
[21:37:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Do we famous
[21:38:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> A big Green Circle with P and a lot of monstrous sounds 😛
[21:38:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Live stream went oof
[21:38:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> I probably could've gotten on the stream by pointing out some useless things I did then given that even Silicona got on there but I didn't know it exists
[21:38:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Okay all in all loved the presentation expect for the rename bit
[21:39:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [1/2] now with this fame from WikiZilla...
[21:39:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [2/2] who is willing to make WikiZilla a real thing
[21:39:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> No
[21:39:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> No
[21:39:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to emicraftnoob> bruh
[21:39:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> probably joke
[21:40:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Maybe if MH goes down the drain again with everyone quitting
[21:40:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Someone fly to Portland and tell labster to check his phone
[21:40:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> 😄
[21:40:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Hack his computer
[21:40:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to solodayheavenofficial> The rename is bad but all in all I don’t think it’s worth an exodus
[21:40:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @theoneandonlylegroom druid boxes
[21:40:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> Yeah ik
[21:40:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> We’ve come too far
[21:40:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> We at the peak of our existence
[21:41:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I’m not tossing that for a logo and a name
[21:41:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> But the part where they said they want to rename to cover up bad Miraheze behavior pretty much is honestly disturbing and makes me really question the WT Foundation
[21:41:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to emicraftnoob> https://wikizilla.org/wiki/Main_Page  WikiTeq did
[21:41:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to emicraftnoob> I'm soooooooo impressed
[21:41:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Oh hello there Brent
[21:41:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> o hai thare
[21:42:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> So.
[21:42:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> The board has officially decided aye?
[21:42:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Nice to hear the voice behind the Labster
[21:42:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Precisely; the fact that it's apparently being done despite community opinion makes it worse
[21:42:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Yeah wasn’t expecting that
[21:42:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to .labster> [1/2] s||hit||
[21:42:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to .labster> [2/2] but idc, going to wikizilla.net
[21:42:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I agree. I am NOT amused
[21:42:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to tali64> Yeah
[21:43:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to emicraftnoob> Can you please Not spam about Wikizilla
[21:43:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> ok
[21:43:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to pixldev> Labster, please. Simple question. Has the board agreed to move forward with this
[21:44:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> They may have adopted the WMF philosophy of ignoring problems until the problems disappear
[21:45:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> I don’t want to answer for Labster but as far as I’m aware, yes.
[21:45:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Let’s not get accusatory
[21:45:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Everyone is evidently pissed.
[21:45:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> But that’s no reason to get uncivil.
[21:45:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to pixldev> it's over midnight for me oh man
[21:45:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to brandon.wm> And he’s typing so he’ll tell us of course. My words are 100% hypothetical/not Board-sanctioned.
[21:45:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Oh dear
[21:45:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I'm not trying to be uncivil
[21:46:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> alright
[21:46:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Let lab cook
[21:46:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> the mwcon is my new super bowl
[21:46:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Perhaps #general is a better venue. Not that itmatters but yeah
[21:47:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> [1/2] Yes, we agreed to move forward a couple weeks ago.  The RfF was mainly for my benefit; I wanted to see if there were arguments that would cause me to reconsider my stance.  I'm pretty easily the most on the fence of people on the board, having been on Miraheze for nearly a decade without trying to rename it.  It really wasn't looking for votes or community agreement (though we'd l
[21:47:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> [2/2] ike agreement obviously).  It's looking for strong arguments that what we were doing was a bad idea, or a good idea.  Simply expressing an opinion is not really an argument.  Ro and Robkelk gave very good feedback, both bringing up things that I hadn't considered.
[21:48:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> :miraheze: :DoneMH: :WikiTide: ❌
[21:48:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Also: I did not know Legroom spoke RUssian
[21:48:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> tldr "community consensus will be ignored"
[21:48:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Miraheze is not a democracy. Miraheze is a dictatorship /s
[21:48:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Going to advise as a caution in my capacity as a moderator that all participants in this discussion should remain civil.
[21:48:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> :ThinkerMH:
[21:49:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Labster. Buddy. I love you. But respectfully, that’s even worse then I expected ☠️
[21:49:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I told already in the RfF that it was a waste of time. It was decided already on Discord.
[21:50:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> ngl I felt like shit during meeting and was tired and stopped caring, but kinda saw that it will still happen, oh well
[21:50:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> [1/2] Community consensus is important, but it's more important for us to plan to grow for the future.  I've asked a lot of people at the conference here before the talk what they thought about the rename.  And it was pretty unanimously in favor of renaming from people outside the project.  And those are people that we want to reach -- future members of the community, who aren't here yet.
[21:50:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> [2/2]   Those that aren't here because of impediments to our outreach.
[21:50:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> You'l' get a lot of backlash
[21:51:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Future tense may not be very accurate
[21:51:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> @.labster TIMING! Timing is all, and this is bad timing.
[21:51:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> I was expecting backlash.  Changing the name is changing a part of your identity.
[21:51:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to .labster> Renaming to cover up Miraheze's past wrongdoing is unethical and shady
[21:51:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rodejong> It’s a limited opportunity
[21:51:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> What oportunity?
[21:52:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to rodejong> On that specifically, I think there is unlikely to ever be better timing than right now.  I like your argument here, I just disagree.
[21:52:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Why not wait till next year
[21:52:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> MWCon is not something that comes often. If the board was gonna do it this would have been a logical tikme
[21:52:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to .labster> I sure wonder why ignoring and overriding community consensus because you don't think the reasoning "strong" makes the fundraiser deceptive advertising
[21:52:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> That's really bad faith ti post the RfF as a chance for people to post their objections if the decision was already made.
[21:52:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Give people peace of getting used to Miraheze after the merger
[21:52:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to solodayheavenofficial> I literally spent a third of my talk talking about our past wrongdoing.
[21:52:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rodejong> I do agree this this though.
[21:52:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to .labster> He’s got a point
[21:53:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> We can unmake decisions, you know.
[21:53:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob, replying to rodejong> MWCon Winter
[21:53:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to .labster> You said in the RfF that the rename is partially because people associate Miraheze with what it did wrong so it doesn't matter, you're saying that to MWCon
[21:53:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to .labster> Yeah under our own name
[21:54:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to .labster> No hate to you! But as a board decission, this is badly managed!!
[21:54:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> during merging when everyone asked about poosible rebranding, we thought it's gonna be an RfC
[21:54:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> honestly
[21:54:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] You largely ignored the arguments that Tali64, myself, and many others made against the rename and there is no reason they aren't "strong"
[21:54:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] I don't think, subjectively, that there is a "strong" reason to ban the reception wikis, but given that I am one of 2 volunteers who believes that when dozens disagree, I don't expect community consensus to be ignored
[21:54:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [1/2] chat is going wild
[21:54:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftnoob> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230637693705261086/Captura_de_Pantalla_2024-04-18_a_las_3.54.27_p.m..png?ex=66340baa&is=662196aa&hm=25c5eceef809f90583d19cbe96d00802d354df0342d7b338dd8ae1123360d290&
[21:55:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Yeah, I really don’t like bickering and arguing like this especially since the rest of the presentation was great
[21:55:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> But to be frank this goes directly against our core of community governance
[21:55:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> ^
[21:56:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha, replying to solodayheavenofficial> [1/3] If that were the case the entire backstory would not have been directly explained today. We aren't renaming to try to hide history but to create new history with a new name, the old history will still be maintained if you really want to find it. But I don't think we are trying to unethically mislead people by trying to cover up history, and in m
[21:56:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha, replying to solodayheavenofficial> [2/3] y personal opinion it's a bit unfair to claim we are doing so with any malicious intent. The sole intent is the long term stability of the project and reaching a growing point in the organization level. I have tried many many times to potentially recruit, the seem interested until you mention the name Miraheze then backout, which has been very f
[21:56:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha, replying to solodayheavenofficial> [3/3] rustrating to me. A few have even said even if it's technically the same organization they would be more likely to join if it wasn't attached to the Miraheze name.
[21:56:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I understand partly prioritizing our future
[21:56:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> I am aware of some of what the Board thought in this renaming process as it was discussed with volunteers first - the arguments were not ignored, but the Board felt differently.
[21:56:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> But still
[21:56:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> Intent does not matter, what matters is the effect
[21:56:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Frankly the effect is that more volunteers will want to join.
[21:57:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to solodayheavenofficial> To be fair, this would support Labster’s argument
[21:57:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to .labster> [1/2] So before the RfF was even opened, a decision was already made, one that the community is very much against? This is problematic on so many levels; when the Board starts to make decisions despite the community's opposition, "you have a voice in all policy matters" becomes a meaningless statement. If this trend continues, before you know it freedom of speech will 
[21:57:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to .labster> [2/2] be nonexistent and [WikiTide] will be a money-hungry for-profit. That is not something we should go towards; this decision (or any decision, for that matter) should not have been made without community input. Going forward, any decision made by the Board that does not regard legal matters should require an RfC, full stop.
[21:57:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/615786602454581249/1230636656197894154
[21:57:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> The name being "WikiTide" does not make more volunteers join
[21:58:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It’s not that WikiTide attracts
[21:58:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I'll make an RfC regarding it that will likely be ignored just to make a point about it
[21:58:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It’s that Miraheze repelled
[21:58:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to .labster> Yes, and you can spit skittles out after they're chewed but the sour taste is still there.
[21:58:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> No it doesn't
[21:59:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Miraheze is doing great right now and is not repelling anyone. No evidence was ever presented that Miraheze has a horrible and unfixable reputation
[21:59:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> See CA’s argument?
[22:00:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/5] As I said: The backlash is largely self invoked!
[22:00:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/5] You should have been honest upfront.
[22:00:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [3/5] "We're going to do this, unless we get convinced by a very good argument why we shouldn't."
[22:00:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [4/5] That would have had still some backlash, but at least it was honest! How this was handled was less than truthful. It was to make the users feel good and having their say, but was overruled! 
[22:00:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [5/5] I hate half truths. Half truths are still lies!
[22:00:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> RfCs that are created pointlessly violate policy and will be deleted. Consistently creating them will result in a block. I’d prefer not to have to make good on this warning but here we are.
[22:00:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> I will reply to it
[22:00:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> Ah yes, deleting RfCs and blocking people because the RfCs support policies you don't like. Certainly follows Miraheze principles.
[22:01:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to brandon.wm> I don’t know if I’d call this pointless
[22:01:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> okay, it's 1am, I'll have 5 hours of sleep
[22:01:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> have fun
[22:01:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> It doesn't matter at all if Miraheze has a bad reputation.  The name itself still gets in the way of getting people interested in the project.  It's happened to me too many times in person for it to be random.  I have to see the evidence of my own ears.
[22:01:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to solodayheavenofficial> No one said it’s being deleted because we don’t like it
[22:01:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> someone drop me a TLDR if I'll get too lazy to scroll
[22:02:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to brandon.wm> In this case, such a hypothetical RfC may very well be on topic; claiming otherwise due to its rationale for creation and not its scope is borderline lawyering
[22:02:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> It’s pointless as the decision has been made - as stated.
[22:02:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Please do not abuse the tools that WikiTide has set forth to allow for community discussion.
[22:02:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to brandon.wm> It's not pointless, we're still listening.
[22:02:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to brandon.wm> Labster has stated that decisions can be unmade
[22:03:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> If that’s the case then please feel free.
[22:03:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Listening or hearing are two different things.
[22:03:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I’d advise against an RfC and extreme measures but if you wish, there’s nothing really I can do.
[22:03:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> Brandon
[22:03:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr, replying to pixldev> not to distract from the big show but regarding this, it's funny because we've several times shut down techy rfcs as invalid because they are sre matters not governed by community vote
[22:04:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to brandon.wm> Making an RfC is not an "extreme measure"; quite the contrary in fact
[22:04:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to raidarr> This is true.
[22:04:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> @brandon.wm Please don't be an authoritarian with throwing warnings around
[22:04:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> an rfc has traditionally been the measure for significant platform affecting changes, to speak from precedence
[22:04:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [1/2] I can see why the board did this. Do I agree mostly? No. But I understand. Will I leave Miraheze over this? No. This was definitely a bad decision yes. I think though regardless of a rebrand or now, it’s that the board listens to and addresses the communities concerns. As Ro said, when a decision like this is fully decided, the board must at the least make it explicitly clear the de
[22:04:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [2/2] cisions had been made, instead of framing it as still in the communities court.
[22:05:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to rodejong> I am enforcing policy that has been set by precedent and code on Meta. Please be civil with your responses.
[22:05:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> Ultimately this is not that significant of a change.  No one's wiki URLs will change besides things like `meta` and `dev`.
[22:05:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [1/14] [1/1]
[22:05:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [2/14] > If that were the case the entire backstory would not have been directly explained today
[22:05:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [3/14] MWCon knowing it does not equal most people knowing it. The whole claimed benefit about the history of Miraheze doesn't matter if you're going to start telling everyone the history of Miraheze but just say "and then Miraheze changed its name to WikiTide and still operates under WikiTide and is the same organization"
[22:05:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [4/14] > We aren't renaming to try to hide history but to create new history with a new name, the old history will still be maintained if you really want to find it.
[22:05:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [5/14] Really? Then why did Labster say the opposite? "The name itself still gets in the way of getting people interested in the project.  It's happened to me too many times in person for it to be random.  I have to hear the evidence of my own ears."
[22:05:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [6/14] Labster:
[22:05:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [7/14] > It doesn't matter at all if Miraheze has a bad reputation.  The name itself still gets in the way of getting people interested in the project.  It's happened to me too many times in person for it to be random.  I have to hear the evidence of my own ears.
[22:05:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [8/14] Any evidence of that?
[22:05:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [9/14] Back to CA:
[22:05:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [10/14] > I don't think we are trying to unethically mislead people by trying to cover up history, and in my personal opinion it's a bit unfair to claim we are doing so with any malicious intent. 
[22:05:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [11/14] "By making a clean start with our name, we can also leave behind the some of the negative aspects of our past as well."- Labster
[22:05:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [12/14] Changing the organization's name to cover up the past, regardless of whether you consider it "malicious intent", is unethical. 
[22:05:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [13/14] > The sole intent is the long term stability of the project and reaching a growing point in the organization level
[22:05:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to cosmicalpha> [14/14] Why does changing the name and logo improve this goal?
[22:05:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/5] [2/2]
[22:05:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/5] >  I have tried many many times to potentially recruit, the seem interested until you mention the name Miraheze then backout, which has been very frustrating to me
[22:05:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [3/5] They have the right to not engage with Miraheze if they don't want to. Saying it's not Miraheze is deceptive. If you're not going to deceive them and instead add on "WikiTide is the same organization as Miraheze and only the name has changed", I don't think it will make it more likely for volunteers to join.
[22:05:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [4/5] > A few have even said even if it's technically the same organization they would be more likely to join if it wasn't attached to the Miraheze name.
[22:05:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [5/5] Who are these "few"? Also, "a few" people (i.e. a small amount of people, that's what "a few" is) saying they'd volunteer if the organization had a different name does not justify a rename.
[22:05:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to pixldev> Exactly!!
[22:05:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to .labster> In that case, rebranding won't make that much of a difference
[22:06:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to solodayheavenofficial> I mentioned most of these things on the RfF, please go read it.
[22:06:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Setting 5 second slow mode
[22:06:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> people get touchy on matters of identity and it should be expected that it would be a sticking point even if it is operationally not a large deal
[22:07:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> [1/2] There is no one being uncivil. Critisism is not uncivil behaviour.
[22:07:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> [2/2] Your warnings make the atmosphere worse
[22:07:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Not to sidestep this issue, but something I just thought of that’s kinda inconsequential: will mirabeta change name lol?
[22:07:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha> [1/2] If we stay Miraheze it has shown in the past to block potential volunteers from joining. Since the current volunteers can not stay forever it is the boards responsibility to ensure long term survivability beyond the current generation, which a rebrand can at least help to accomplish. So while yeah people may be attached to the name, keeping it only hinders the company, not helps 
[22:07:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha> [2/2] it.
[22:07:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> I’d believe so
[22:07:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> BetaTide
[22:07:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> At least one person at the conference suggested "MiraTide" as a possible rename.
[22:08:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to cosmicalpha> I disagree. We have grown in volunteers just in the last four months.
[22:08:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/6] The main problem is not the URL and name changing. The main problem is that community consensus was ignored. I would not have an issue if this was done with community consensus.
[22:08:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/6] > I mentioned most of these things on the RfF, please go read it.
[22:08:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [3/6] I read it. People didn't agree and opposed it, and yet a decision was already made when you opened it and you deceived everyone, claiming that it was not a 
[22:08:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [4/6] > If we stay Miraheze it has shown in the past to block potential volunteers from joining. Since the current volunteers can not stay forever it is the boards responsibility to ensure long term survivability beyond the current generation, which a rebrand can at least help to accomplish. So while yeah people may be attached to the name, keeping it only hinders the company
[22:08:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [5/6] , not helps it.
[22:08:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [6/6] No, it has not been shown. This was a claim made at the RfF, and yet you admitted just now that it's only been the case with "a few" people
[22:08:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> But your likely hinting n WM volunteers
[22:09:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Miraheze has been around for a while now. If you rename, you essentially throw out all the reputation you have built up with the old name  - not ideal
[22:09:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> A middle ground rebrand may be interesting but probably would be shit
[22:09:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to cosmicalpha> The Miraheze brand hindering the wiki farm would only be true if Miraheze was a name that could never shed its negative reputation, which is not true; we've received a lot of positive attention in the past few months as Miraheze
[22:09:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> It was given as a reassurance on numerous occasions no rename would occur without an RfC, im curious to understand why a board which slated Miraheze Limited for "not being community driven" has not only excluded the community from this major decision it assured it wouldn't, but then actively ignored the community's view? Seems very anti community centric.
[22:10:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to owenrb> Good point indeed!!
[22:10:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Thank you.
[22:10:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> A middle ground rebrand would not solve the problem if the middle ground rebrand was not supported by the community. If the community supported renaming to WikiTide, I would not have any issue with it. Nor would I have an issue with MiraTide, if that was supported by the community. The problem is that the Board ignored the community.
[22:11:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Just an fyi that rebranding does not do much to improve a farms reputation. People are still sour at wikia and Fandom hasn't been wikia for years.
[22:11:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> I'm afraid Owen has got the board on this one
[22:11:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> the manner of the rebranding will be more consequential in the long run than the act of rebranding
[22:12:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> What I call "The WikiTide Experiment" has already showed us where people who request wikis end up going. People tend to stick to organisations, not people that run them unless they know the people that run the org.
[22:14:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to owenrb> Actually I don't recall any reassurances on that topic?  If anyone can find one, I'd be interested.
[22:14:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> [1/3] I am going to present you two wiki farms: Wiki farm A and Wiki farm B. (from now on Alpha and Bravo)
[22:14:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> [2/3] Alpha has been around for a while, Bravo has been founded by members of Alpha when they split off, but you do not know that. I am just going to tell you Alpha has more wikis and more infrastructure and been around longer.
[22:14:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> [3/3] If you were migrating from another farm (let's say Foxtrot) which one would you pick knowing your shit experience with Foxtrot: Alpha or Bravo.
[22:14:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> I was given the reassurance as a first point prior to agreeing any transition to WikiTide Foundation
[22:14:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I understand why people that have opposition, have opposition. But the Board as a collective made the decision to rename, and please remember who is on the Board. I’m more than inclined to trust their thoughts on the matter.
[22:15:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> So I feel like I've been misled
[22:15:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <elliethepwincess> this is an interesting chat to spectate
[22:15:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I'd also like to ask if the board doesn't consider this to be against our mission of community run, or if it considers it acceptable to go against the community in favor of the future
[22:15:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to felenov> More infrastructure is hilarious given that Miraheze’s infrastructure was falling apart pre-WikiTide.
[22:16:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> And the fact that Miraheze funds were relatively non-existent as well.
[22:16:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> But regardless, I feel the overwhelming opinions of the community being blatantly ignored by the Foundation speaks volumes. This isn't a community ran project anymore - if the community don't get a say in the identity of the project
[22:16:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to brandon.wm> Definitely; the WikiTide merger was a net positive (apart from the current rebranding discussion)
[22:17:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr, replying to brandon.wm> it is reasonable to separate the good actions of the board from the errors in how this process was approached; again, the issue is less the act of renaming itself and instead the manner in which it was done
[22:19:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/4] @Board Members I employ to you the following.
[22:19:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/4] The way you have handled this has the community heated, mostly as they feel deceived. It would suite the board if they said: Okay, this is not how we should have done this. Let's wait for a year and return to this question again. 
[22:19:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [3/4] For you, to be trusted, you need to listen to the community who selected you. What you have done here broke the trust of the community.
[22:19:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [4/4] That's the biggest stain on WikiTide, before it even is implemented.!
[22:20:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Look, we are all human and humans hate change. It's normal, even if there are net positives, you will loose something
[22:20:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> @raidarr see DMs if you have a sec
[22:20:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to rodejong> Can we get a pin on this? This sums up the general community sentiment on rebranding very well
[22:21:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> If there was a assurance to Owen regarding a rebrand, that also speaks volumes and needs to be cosidered
[22:21:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to tali64> @brandon.wm
[22:21:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to tali64> Sure, go ahead
[22:21:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to owenrb> I'd also like to hear the board's thoughts on this.
[22:23:08] <MacFan4000>	 there was some talk of needng an RFC first in https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Reorganization_of_Miraheze#Abstain_C_(WikiTide) in the discussion for vote #6, but none of it came directly from board members
[22:23:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/4] RfC:
[22:23:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/4] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Miraheze's_name_and_branding
[22:23:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [3/4] One thing: Brandon has claimed that opening an RfC against this would result in me being blocked because it's a frivolous RfC, but I do not agree. The name  and branding of the farm going forward is a rather important matter, and although the Board may choose to disregard this RfC, establishing community consensus is important for the Miraheze community. As Brandom is a
[22:23:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [4/4] n involved user in an ongoing dispute, I would like to point out that it would be against established norms for him to take moderation action against a proposal that he opposes.
[22:24:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> I said repetitive creations.
[22:24:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to solodayheavenofficial> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment this has to be added here
[22:24:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> Ok sorry you said it would eb deleted if I made it
[22:25:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> That’ll be a discussion point with the Meta sysop team.
[22:25:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> RfCs have been closed previously due to ineligibility.
[22:25:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> what merits would such an rfc be deleted under
[22:25:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I don't think anyone going for miratide
[22:26:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to brandon.wm> It should not be deleted; an RfC on this matter is definitely valid
[22:26:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> even if it may not sway the board's mind it may as well exist for the community to express their 2c, unless that is something that will be abolished
[22:26:19] <MacFan4000>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/WikiTide_Foundation/Merger_FAQ#Will_the_Miraheze_name/miraheze.org_URL_remain? also suggests that the MH name would remain "for the foreseeable future"
[22:26:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I think the RFC should be focused only on the boards action not WikiTide/Miraheze
[22:26:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> Even if the board don't listen to an RfC on the topic, the community have the right to voice their opinion as a collective and the board or sysops shouldn't stand in the way of the community being able to express their dissatisfaction at a decision taken
[22:26:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to MacFan4000> I can see 4 months
[22:26:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> the sysop team certainly has no business intervening in the rfc creation unless it's spam or something
[22:27:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> if the board collectively issues an override that is its business at that point
[22:27:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to raidarr> I do apologize in the miswording - Stewards
[22:27:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to raidarr> RfCs have been opened as guidance for SRE before even though the community does not have authority to overrule SRE decisions. It is reasonable to apply the same concept to Board decisions.
[22:27:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I do not believe it is likely at all
[22:27:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> that call should not even be made by stewards, board only
[22:27:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to raidarr> As you remember I’m sure RfCs have been closed before due to it being a Board/SRE decision and an RfC would not be enforceable.
[22:28:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> An RfF would be more appropriate.
[22:28:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> I've never particularly liked those closures
[22:28:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> They’ll make the final say here, I’m simply saying it’s a possibility.
[22:28:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> an rfc can be a simple expression of community opinion
[22:28:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> if this is not the case I'd sponsor that rfc to make it so tbh
[22:28:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Truthfully I don't want to vote on the RfC for or against the name. I just want to show opposition to the process
[22:28:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I’d prefer we enforce previous precedent and make this an RfF.
[22:29:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> The policy states "Requests for Comments can be used for a variety of purposes where the community should be consulted." Therefore someone petitioning the community thoughts on a rename that has occured is in scope as the community should be consulted on the matter
[22:29:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Brandon. Given how the last RfF went
[22:29:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> eeeeeeeeeeeeehhh
[22:30:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> RfF = non-enforceable decision, RfC = enforceable decision
[22:30:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> The previous precedent is not valid here - that was the board requesting the community input, this is the community petitioning it's opinion in line with policy
[22:31:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> The directive I’ve been given is that the Board is looking at the RfF for opinions, not simple votes.
[22:31:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> rfcs can be closed to the degree that's most enforceable even if it's not so enforceable at all and merely to express an opinion, I disagree with the use of RfF as a lightweight rfc
[22:31:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> especially on major matters
[22:31:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> The board has stated the decision was made prior to the RfF even being published
[22:32:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> And that is why the community is free to seek it's own consensus on the matter via the RfC process
[22:32:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I think at the very least supressing an RFC is gonna cause things to go to shit even more
[22:33:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> an rfc on the topic must not be suppressed, fully agree, even if stewards or whomever feel it is not in scope
[22:33:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Which is the main issue. I think its really misleading to say that they were considering changing the name instead of "we've decided to change the name"
[22:33:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> Opinions were given. Labster said they're not "strong" and ignored them. Labster did not say why they aren't "strong". You agreed with Labster but also didn't say why they are not "strong".
[22:33:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to owenrb> The RfC process is non-enforceable in this situation and will not have a different effect
[22:33:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> To suppress an RfC on the matter would be a direct attack on the communities ability to demonstrate democracy - something WikiTide Foundation explicitly said would not happen
[22:33:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> If I may get a quick ask, who here is for renaming to WikiTide, but against the lack of community consultance?
[22:34:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> Neutral on the rename (don't care much but prefer Miratide if it has to be renamed), against community consultance
[22:34:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb, replying to brandon.wm> It doesn't need to be enforceable - it just needs to be a matter pertaining to the community per policy
[22:34:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Also nobody has the right to say someone elses opposition isn't strong. If its strong to them then its strong. You dont have the right to invalidate someone elses opinion because you don't share the same.
[22:34:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to brandon.wm> As explained to me, the Board will not be taking the RfC into consideration in any form.
[22:34:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> Enforceability is not mentioned in policy
[22:34:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> It will, however, be looking at the RfF for arguments b
[22:34:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> No.
[22:35:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to brandon.wm> this
[22:35:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Labster has said the RfF was for him, not the board
[22:35:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <emicraftt> I got a account with my main email, literally my main Discord account has another email and the bad thing is that I completely lost access to the email and I can't change the email in my main account
[22:35:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> It will not be deleted, but it won’t be considered.
[22:35:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> If the board explicitly does not wish to consider the community opinion, that is fine. But that's a very very dangerous game to play
[22:35:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> That was already done, the arguments were provided, Labster stated they will be ignored because he doesn't agree with them without saying why they're wrong.
[22:35:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> Especially with ongoing board elections
[22:35:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/2] A RfC to place a formal warning against the board is a valid reason, If there is support enough, we could formally request demotion of the current board, as they seem to be more concerned about the foundation than it's community. 
[22:35:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/2] The community doesn't always have to get their wishs granted, but they certainly should not be played with. ANd that is the whole issue here!
[22:35:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> I think we should move the discussion to MetaWiki
[22:36:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I will vote for whoever at the board is wiling to respect community consensus
[22:36:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr, replying to brandon.wm> I recommend you do not respond on this subject further
[22:36:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to owenrb> There is a wish to look at the RfF, not RfC. To say the Board would ignore community opinion is wrong.
[22:36:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rodejong> No. Firmly against this.
[22:36:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to brandon.wm> That must be a joke.
[22:36:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to originalauthority> That’s how it was explained to me.
[22:36:43] <MacFan4000>	 @felenov An RFC currently exists on-wiki
[22:36:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb, replying to brandon.wm> But you just said they won't consider at the RfC, which is community opinion
[22:37:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov, replying to MacFan4000> I am aware of the RfC
[22:37:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> This issue is already damaging the stability of the community and farm as is. To request demotion of the board. It's suicide
[22:37:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> You were saying how we should prove Miraheze is stable through actions not brand right? What does an action like that say,
[22:37:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to pixldev> Deleted
[22:38:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> If the board is going to waste the users' trust, it is reasonable to demote the board members who are firmly going against the community if it is possible to find a competent replacement.
[22:38:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Do you want to have a board at all?
[22:38:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> To be clear, demotion just for proposing bad ideas is not reasonable; it is reasonable if they ignore the users' opposition
[22:38:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> Yes, but not one that overrides the communtiy arbitrarily and without explanation
[22:38:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to owenrb> Considering at the RfF, not RfC. The desire is to have all opinions in one location (the RfF). You can ask the Board why. I’m saying what it is, not why it is.
[22:38:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Sorry for bringing it up, it was an out of the blue thought popping out
[22:39:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> (not to beat the horse but)Say what you will about how the decision was made, it seems it was made with the community, in some way, as the beneficiary.
[22:39:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> Whoever called for demotion of the Board, let’s not, thanks
[22:39:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> As Labster said, it's to be a long term investment. Does that excuse the lack of consultance? No.
[22:39:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> But I do not believe it correct to state this was done in interest of the Foundation against the community.
[22:39:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb, replying to brandon.wm> The RfC is the communitys opportunity to have their say under their rules, rather than the rules of the Board where a board member has said it was just to change his opinion and the decision to rebrand has already been agreed
[22:40:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> The board should have been honest up front.
[22:40:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb> It anything, an RfC is better as the community can collectively share their view to the board
[22:40:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> Ignoring the community's opinion on the decision indicates that we could be going down a dangerous long-term path.
[22:40:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It was done by the Foundation, for the community. The issue is that for is serving double meanings
[22:41:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It was both in interest for the community, and made for the community, on it's behalf, against itself.
[22:42:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> Labster explicitly stated that he ignored several arguments at the RfF because he didn't feel they were "strong" and refused to explain which ones or why they aren't "strong". I do not see why an RfF is any better than the RfC when Labster is not genuinely taking the community's opinions into consideration.
[22:42:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to owenrb> The only thing I object to is making the rfc on the rebrand mainly. I'm at this point leaning to neutral on the rebrand but firmly against the actions.
[22:43:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <owenrb, replying to pixldev> And that is a valid point, it might be better to address the actions rather than the consequences
[22:43:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to pixldev> That is what I wrote in the RfC
[22:43:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I want to clarify: what I’ve said has been what’s explained to me by the Board. They are not my directives, they are what the Board has said. You can ask me questions but I’d say they should be directed at the Board as they’re the ones making this decision, not me.
[22:43:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to pixldev> I do not know what to do really with the RfC regarding the actions
[22:44:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I can't add any proposals regarding the actions beyond "tell the Board to stop ignoring us"
[22:44:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> I haven’t had a chance to look but what exactly does the RfC say? Is it just “Rebrand to WikiTide” or “Keep Miraheze”?
[22:44:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> The request for feedback has been posted for over a week
[22:44:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It's a request for comments. I don't recall policy saying comments must be in the form of a proposal
[22:44:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> [1/2] I rather hear it from each of the board members in stead of a lackey!
[22:44:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> [2/2] But they are deafening scilent!
[22:45:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Ro. Civil please.
[22:45:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to rodejong> I’d appreciate not being referred to as a lackey, thanks. Please watch your words, I’ve been clear on this.
[22:45:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> The board should issue its own coordinated response even to say they are discussing atm and will respond soon
[22:45:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to solodayheavenofficial> So that is why I'm just making an RfC on one of the "matters pertaining to the Miraheze community", to establish the Miraheze's community consensus on this matter pertaining to them
[22:45:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> It's a Dutch common phrase. Not demeaning at all
[22:46:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Call it a spokesmen, or similar. Same meaning
[22:46:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> In English it's usually considered an insult
[22:46:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to raidarr> @.labster to respond here
[22:46:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> Like how "bloody" is kind of a swear in British English
[22:46:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Sorry for that. I didn't know
[22:46:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to rodejong> No worries
[22:46:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> I'm at a conference for work, so I'll respond later.  I'm trying to learn things.
[22:47:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> Not even lab should approach strictly on his own
[22:47:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to .labster> ok
[22:47:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to raidarr> alr
[22:47:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to .labster> Okay no thats fair
[22:47:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> There's more to MWCon then Miraheze
[22:48:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Enjoy it while you can. We'll be looking forward to seeing you thenaafter.
[22:48:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [1/2] unrelated but this doesn't really apply because stewards are de facto meta bureaucrats now
[22:48:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1230651194901401692/image.png?ex=6634183d&is=6621a33d&hm=3dc7e15e7fede72b543775f5a7616ee6f6365ed21d5b6a0c553d1be6e7985cd0&
[22:48:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> As we continue to debate this topic as I imagine we well, I’ll repeat again to be respectful.
[22:49:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> Where’s that?
[22:49:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> should be fixed
[22:49:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to brandon.wm> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment_Policy#Local_Meta-Wiki_RfCs
[22:49:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I wouldn't be opposed to everyone taking a break to cool and clear heads a bit but to enforce that would be called censorship
[22:49:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to solodayheavenofficial> thanks for alerting, will fix
[22:50:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> If it gets to the point where it’s that heated, I’d imagine mods would step in and do just that.
[22:50:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Oh if it gets to that point i fully agree.
[22:50:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> But I’ve seen a rare conversation get to that point.
[22:50:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Only in the Nale days
[22:50:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I'm suggesting an, intermission, to prevent things from getting to that point.
[22:50:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> Brandon...
[22:50:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I’ll mention it to the team and see what they say. I doubt we do it though
[22:51:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Highly doubt
[22:51:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> mention what.
[22:51:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> please let it be
[22:52:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to pixldev> Eh, it doesn’t really need mentioning to be honest. Who needs to have seen it, has.
[22:52:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> This does seem to have slowed down a bit.
[22:52:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> It’s out of my hands regardless. Admins would be the ones to execute in a situation as fragile as this.
[22:53:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I just suggest everyone takes this moment to go take a walk, get a drink, read a book maybe, just to cool off so we can return to this in a civil and productive manner.
[22:54:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I’d also suggest we move to #general as it does increase visibility and is probably more appropriate here.
[22:55:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to brandon.wm> I think you really should just stop talking because I can't believe half the things coming out of your mouth.
[22:56:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to originalauthority> Tha
[22:56:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial, replying to originalauthority> That's a bit more harsh than I would put it but half yes
[22:56:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> To say that the mods would censor what is valid concern and discussion by the community is utterly ridiculous and disrespectful.
[22:56:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to originalauthority> Heated = uncivil = nothing to gain? I’m confused as to why that’s a hard thing to grasp. If a conversation is rude and disrespectful to all involved, it shouldn’t continue.
[22:56:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> jesus here we go again
[22:56:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Cooling off and censorship are not the same thing.
[22:57:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <solodayheavenofficial> I'm just not sure I'd necessarily agree with what you define as uncivil
[22:57:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to originalauthority> No one is objecting
[22:57:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to originalauthority> Nobody is saying shut the conversation off forever. Nobody is saying censor it.
[22:57:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Please read the discussion.
[22:57:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> No one is saying the discussion has gotten to a unacceptable point.
[22:57:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Take it to Meta, #offtopic is not the venue for this
[22:58:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> We are saying, if it reaches that points
[22:58:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> I have read the discussion. "Id imagine mods would step in and do just that" is a direct reply to the comment about censorship.
[22:58:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to originalauthority> Do just that meaning what was suggested.
[22:58:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> Not censoring.
[22:58:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> offtopic is the venue for whatever one needs it to be @felenov
[22:58:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> The suggestion was to briefly pause and step back to let heads cool.
[22:58:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to felenov> eh
[22:59:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> I would rather have it structured in a discussion thread but I will leave it there.
[22:59:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> me 2
[22:59:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> Maybe you should try to think that there are people who's native tongue is not English. (I still think in Dutch phrases, eventhough I've lived for 20 years in Denmark and speak fluent Danish.)
[22:59:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to bluemoon0332> Hi
[22:59:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> cooldowns :/ smh
[22:59:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to rodejong> I think the intent has well been made clear.
[23:00:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> Interrupting but i boo bood again can you drop loadouttestwikibeta when you next ssh in 🤣
[23:00:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to brandon.wm> How YOU wish to read it is YOUR prerogative!
[23:00:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> No need to caps shout.
[23:01:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I just state the words that the way everything has been done, has been wrong, and the Community is condemning that.
[23:01:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> @originalauthority I hope my words were not misinterpreted. If I do need to clarify anything, please let me know.
[23:02:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> That's what I call heated, as emotions are involved
[23:02:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm, replying to rodejong> I’d say emotions are currently involved
[23:02:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> But not quite heated
[23:03:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It's been getting warm.
[23:03:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> Emotions are the number one reason for poorly thought out decisions.
[23:04:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> I’d ageee
[23:04:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to originalauthority> [1/2] you mean the loadoutwiki from beta?
[23:04:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to originalauthority> [2/2] seems that hasn't been done yet, I'll get to that
[23:05:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to bluemoon0332> I created another one, with test on the end but it didnt create properly because url shortner is borked on 1.42
[23:05:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> In my personal capacity, not as a mod, I’d recommend a disconverse from the rebrand conversation for a bit and allow everyone to cool off until emotions have settled. This is a suggestion, not a mandate, it’s what I think would be best for everyone.
[23:05:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> oof
[23:06:04] <Orange_Star>	 that reminds me I think I also made another half-created wiki on beta, I'll have to get around to deleting that one too
[23:06:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> Brandon did my advice get lost in transition
[23:06:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to brandon.wm> I agree with this.
[23:10:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <koreirose, replying to brandon.wm> Alright true, I guess we should discontinue
[23:11:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <brandon.wm> It’s whatever y’all decide, I’m not enforcing anything here. It’s just my suggestion b
[23:15:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <felenov> I am going to vote on the RfC and disengage. I dont want to participate in drama.