[00:22:38] [1/2] polandball wiki observer here [00:22:38] [2/2] what exactly is happening between brandon and labster [00:27:41] A suspension of moderation duties was enacted, as statements were made that had an implication of direct-from-board officiality. We're reviewing internally and working to get information from all parties before we take any further steps or make further statement. [00:33:22] hoping y'all have luck on resolving it [00:34:08] Nearly 3 hours ago, Agent said it'd be resolved in 30 minutes [00:36:00] Apparently some unstated group of people is being waited on (nobody knows who but I'm assuming Stewards and Board members which will take a while because Labster only comes online to force bad decisions on the community without any consensus or reasoning then logs out for the day) [00:37:38] If every Steward has to be online to decide this though, consider that 5 PM in California is 9 AM in Japan, so good luck getting Kiju online at the same time as the people in the US [00:54:09] 30 minutes was optimistic tbh [01:09:47] Agreed. Anyone who expects a sound decision from a volunteer community in less than a day is overly optimistic. [01:11:34] Granted, we'd like a quick resolution, but we also don't want it rushed. Or, unrealistic considering the format under which Miraheze operates (as a wholey volunteer organization). [01:12:45] And, fundamentally, we want a fair resolution, so an expedited response is not necessarily the best. [01:21:59] I agree 100% with all of your statements. Yesterday, I was not at my best, and made some rash and idiotic decisions. I apologize to all for my involvement and will work to do better. As many of you know, I’m not generally like this, and I hope y’all can accept my apology. [01:22:10] It was a severe period of judgement lapse and will not happen again. [02:08:40] Thank you for acknowledging your actions and apologizing. Emotions impact judgment and lead to bad decisions. What sets people apart is how they respond when called out. Some will hide from their mistakes, others face them straight up. I respect what you have done. It is a responsible choice. [02:18:33] I am fully aware of this, and as such Brandon shouldn't be demoted until a decision is made [02:24:59] Apparently the vote on whether to restore his permissions is currently tied according to Agent which is honestly shocking because either Brandon did something very bad that for some reason the server staff either do not want/care about/cannot for whatever reason explain or the server staff are making bad decisions [02:25:55] 1 small, isolated and ultimately harmless incident that was apologized for is not a grounds for revocation and nothing Brandon posted was "misinformation" [02:27:27] "I think you really should just stop talking because I can't believe half the things coming out of your mouth" is a good way to describe Labster's comment on the RfC about demoting Brandon honestly [02:28:07] And yes I acknowledge I could've probably been more calm discussing this but it should be obvious why this is frustrating [02:30:04] [1/3] As I stated on the RfC: "This arbitrary demotion when Brandon clearly stated he was only repeating what he had been told is very disturbing behavior and does not inspire trust in Miraheze when trust is already at an all time low. Someone with global rights who serves on the Board should know that it goes against countless Miraheze policies and principles to demote someo [02:30:04] [2/3] ne from all roles on Discord because they said something you disagree with. Brandon never claimed to be appointed as a spokesperson; Rodejong simply misinterpreted Brandon's very clear statement, likely because of the language barrier as Rodejong isn't a native speaker." [02:30:05] [3/3] It is also very telling that Labster cited a broken link to a non existent page called "Global Content Policy" as justification [02:31:40] [1/3] > Just for information, at no point has @User:BrandonWM been authorized to speak on behalf of the Board of Directors. As this is a serious violation of the Global Content Policy, representing an official stance without authorization, Brandon is being demoted from Discord roles, so that people do not get the wrong idea about what we have and have not discussed as a board [02:31:40] [2/3] . Unfortunately, the rest of the board is not ready to enforce the GCP at this time, so it does not apply to wiki roles [02:31:41] [3/3] Disturbing how Labster implies that he wants all of Brandon's wiki roles removed because of a non-existent "global content policy" and the only thing stopping him is the rest of the board objecting to it [02:33:05] Just to be clear, I’ve made previous mistakes with the moderator role, none to this level but there have been small missteps here and there. I’ve been advised to be a bit more careful, but they’ve been all in regards to technical items and not discipline within the server. [02:33:20] However given that, I was threatened in the weeks prior with revocation by Labster. [02:33:28] I wish this didn’t have to be mentioned now but here it is. [02:33:43] Y’all can decide whether that’s a COI/involved decision or not, I know where I land. [02:37:32] [1/2] I think it's particularly concerning not just that it's an involved decision but that Labster, as a global sysop and Board member, evidently does not know what policies exist and what they are named given that they misstated both the name and especially the content of the global conduct policy [02:37:32] [2/2] The GCP 1) is not called the "global content policy" and 2) covers harassment, threats, inappropriate behavior, and hate speech. Even if Brandon falsely claimed to speak on behalf of the Board (he did not make such a claim), this isn't a violation of the GCP [02:39:54] okay google, summarize the textwall above please [02:41:52] You could copy it all into ChatGPT and ask it for a summary if you really want a summary but I would encourage just reading it [02:42:53] As a writer of textwalls myself, I no longer have the stamina to [02:43:03] so I'll just assume tl;dr lab bad [02:44:48] I'd assume it's just autocorrect changing Conduct -> Content. Labster was around for the writing of the original Code of Conduct (he's a relic) so I'd assume he knows full on well the policy [02:45:02] Remember that he's at MWCon, on a phone, which has le beautiful autocorrect [02:49:50] @agentisai see DMs (perhaps you already have, my internet is slow) [02:50:01] Yeah I’d also assume this is the case. [02:50:12] However…..where did I violate the GCP? [02:51:17] Possibly but then why would he think that impersonating the Board (which did not actually happen) constitutes harassment, threats, inappropriate behavior, or hate speech? [02:52:41] [1/2] Also he stated "the rest of the board is not ready to enforce the GCP at this time" [02:52:41] [2/2] The board is not responsible for enforcing the GCP and he should know that [02:52:58] Oh yeah that too [03:08:24] ngl I sometimes forget what's in the GCP or CP [03:08:37] despite the fact I wrote a significant portion of both policies [03:14:25] Probably a sign that both policies should be simplified. [03:14:37] they aren't that complex [03:14:44] But like you can remember the gist of them [03:15:35] [1/4] TLDR for any wiki: [03:15:35] [2/4] Don't be an idiot [03:15:36] [3/4] Use common sense [03:15:36] [4/4] Don't piss off the server host and the stewards [03:15:41] The GCP isn't anything close to what Labster enforced it as, also if he forgot the content he should've read it again before demoting an active moderator based on it [03:16:26] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1231081012528812092/makesweet-zd7kkp.gif?ex=66248509&is=66233389&hm=e6aafd02b6a09092858a5756f0ed460a9af7c1800720e1c4396bea5a0f6b13f0& [03:16:28] Reject Miraheze [03:16:32] Embrace Orain [03:17:10] [1/8] CP I remember [03:17:10] [2/8] Don't break the law [03:17:11] [3/8] Don't sexualize minors [03:17:11] [4/8] Clearly label NSFW [03:17:11] [5/8] No harassment [03:17:12] [6/8] No reception wikis [03:17:12] [7/8] No vandalism [03:17:12] [8/8] Stuff like that [03:17:20] Also no hate based wikis and so on [03:17:36] It's pretty obvious what's in it even if you can't remember the full thing, the same goes for the GCP [03:21:24] It's all under "common sense" [03:23:13] I do think there needs to be a dedicated wiki farm for reception wikis, keep the dirt in one place. [03:24:28] Lab seems to have a thing for going against community consent ykwim [03:24:34] 100% [03:27:55] Telepedia and ShoutWiki atp are where every reception wiki is at [03:28:48] Only a small number are on Miraheze and imo for some of them (not all of them) it'd be better for them to move [03:30:35] A majority of the extant reception wikis are on Miraheze; New QP is the only reception wiki on Telepedia and ShoutWiki only has three [03:30:58] The reception wiki for reception wikis is hosted on MH [03:31:27] receptionwikis.miraheze.org isn't a reception wiki [03:31:59] It's just a wiki listing every reception wiki and notable users but not any good/bad commentary [03:32:15] Also making some wiki farm for reception wikis isn't a horrible idea but don't call it shitty.wiki [03:33:04] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/615786602454581249/1231085199752826951/image.png?ex=6635ac70&is=66233770&hm=8df6df63f617b4cfae3cf3e77cf89312c83ac7c933dca6571949436545a08210& [03:33:13] Good idea [03:33:42] I'm actually willing to contribute on there if it's a genuine wiki farm, just not sure if I'll be able to convince people to join it or not [03:34:26] I mean, I registered pipebomb.org because it's funny so make of that what you will. [03:37:05] I will not start a wiki farm unless I have people who I can trust with shell access that can run the thing since I don't have much spare time and this kind of wiki farm would probably require a lot of time to babysit [04:00:58] I'd do it if any of the reception wikis agreed to migrate but I'm not that trustworthy or always available [04:10:38] <.labster, replying to agentisai> absolutely true [04:10:48] <.labster> nobody wants to be the bad man, be the sad man [04:10:51] <.labster> but here I am. [04:12:47] <.labster> In any case I really like Brandon as a person. I think he shows a lot of promise. [04:15:00] <.labster> [1/2] If you were thinking that there was a "but", you'd be right. There's a pattern of behavior of misrepresentations which I believe are, well, not exactly in good faith, but intended to be legitimately helpful. The sensitivity of the topic for which he claimed to represent the board is really important, and he shouldn't have done it. I know he was trying to take our side, but it m [04:15:00] <.labster> [2/2] isleads all sides of the discussion. [04:18:43] I’d like to clarify that in no situation did I attempt to represent the Board - you can see chat histories from multiple users backing that up. [04:19:22] I said I was passing on details that Board members had shared with me, which was in fact, true and what I had been asked to do. [04:20:26] So that is false. [04:22:57] Also I’d add that it is not permitted under any policy to unilaterally revoke rights, either in a Discord administrator capacity or Chairman of the Board. In actuality, that’s a matter for a community debate/election. You, as both high-standing positions within this foundation; should know policy. [04:27:32] <.labster> I don't think I would have reacted that way if any other moderator had not been asleep at the wheel the entire week. [04:27:55] I’ve been lectured before for taking actions unilaterally and without consulting others. [04:28:03] And you do the same? [04:28:38] <.labster> I'm an officer of the organization. Part of the job is taking decisions to protect the company. In the absence of the President, I can take action. [04:29:43] <.labster> I don't consider it a permanent demotion until ratified, but Discord mod is more sensitive than other roles, because it has access to destructive functions. I don't believe you'd use them, but it's best practice from a security point of view when suspending people. [04:29:57] That’s funny, given the fact that you asked me to tell the President a few weeks ago that the President shouldn’t place their hands in community matters. [04:30:37] <.labster> This isn't a community matter. It's a board matter, because you represented yourself as an agent of the board. [04:30:39] And you under no circumstances are permitted to break policy, but you seem to have a clear disregard for all of them. [04:30:57] Read the conversation - I never did. And just to be clear - CA stated you acted as a Discord admin. [04:31:02] Not a Board director. [04:31:11] So that in itself is false. [04:31:15] Again. [04:32:13] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1230996785460416644 Right here… [04:33:01] <.labster> He's wrong. [04:33:29] I don’t believe so as I have other Discord moderators telling me that this was a Discord decision [04:33:51] And in this situation, it wasn’t appropriate to revoke Discord moderator at the first point anyway, let alone try and revoke every single one. [04:34:10] <.labster> If that is the case, then I should resign and leave the server now. [04:34:43] That’s your call. I won’t make you do anything. But there has been a clear case of abuse here and countless users have said so. [04:34:57] Read up in just this channel alone and you’ll find 4-5. [04:35:05] <.labster> This can't be an official Miraheze project if people can make up anything they want about it. [04:35:25] Nobody made up anything yet you cling to that sticking point [04:35:45] Read the conversation, I beg you [04:35:54] And read several users’ comments on this that affirm what I’ve said [04:36:00] <.labster> I read it. People misinterpreted it, you had a chance to correct them, you didn't. [04:36:32] I’m sorry, one user misinterpreted due to a language barrier. No other one did. [04:36:52] @solodayheavenofficial can affirm all that I’ve said as they’ve said it above in this channel, as have others. [04:37:28] I’m of the belief that you’ve wanted me gone, saw this edge case as an opportunity, and took it. [04:38:23] <.labster> I do not want you gone. You screwed up in a way that made things works. [04:39:29] Screwed up? Sure. But not in the way you imagine. I overstepped at times and probably should’ve stepped back from the conversation as I was becoming repetitive and unproductive, but I did not say I was a Board spokesperson. [04:39:57] Right here: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/615786602454581249/1231069346487468193 [04:40:23] <.labster> Look, rights can always be reinstated. You're not helping your case that what I did was a mistake. [04:40:43] Oh this too: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/615786602454581249/1231015345112748105 [04:41:13] What you did doesn’t have to be interpreted as a mistake. It was a violation of policy and abuse of power, full stop. [04:41:43] I’ve acknowledged my mistakes yesterday. You refuse to acknowledge yours today and press on. [04:41:51] That’s where I’m upset. [04:42:28] <.labster> It isn't a mistake though, it's a pattern of behavior on your part. [04:43:01] No, not really. But let’s go down that hypothetical path. It’s fine to remove rights unilaterally and without consultation of others? [04:43:10] h u h. [04:43:40] <.labster> Yes. Any steward of officer of the organization can act to enforce the Terms of Use. [04:43:53] <.labster> I did also consult with another before taking this step. [04:43:57] Except CA has said it wasn’t a Board call, it was a Discord admin one. [04:44:06] Your own colleagues refute what you’ve said. [04:44:15] <.labster> They're wrong. [04:44:22] I don’t believe they are. [04:44:27] Multiple have said as much. [04:44:35] Going to ask that folks chill on this topic for the moment. It's clear that emotions are running high. [04:44:39] <.labster> You can believe anything you want, as long as you don't represent it coming from the board. [04:45:22] Going to make a final comment and then I’m going to hold off on further remarks. [04:46:38] The Terms of Use, to be clear, doesn’t even approve what you’ve done. The only one I can think of remotely is Section 9 and that even, requires me to have essentially DDoSd Miraheze (I have not), committed a crime (I have not), or violated global policies repeatedly and consistently (I have not). Thus again, you are wrong. [05:00:37] literally my reaction to this chat [05:03:24] 👋 [05:29:00] <.labster> Please everyone, embrace your calm for 420 Day [05:42:44] The trees thank you in advance [05:53:56] Yes [05:53:59] I encourage you to [05:55:05] He never claimed to represent the board, stop making stuff up [05:56:18] This is the most ironic thing you've said so far [05:56:44] Again, going to ask the topic be dropped for now, nothing further productive to be done at present. [05:56:51] Alright [06:02:12] Okay. I am going to request xlate permissions, Ru translations be trash [06:03:35] hm? [06:03:54] Meta's Ru translate can do some work [06:05:16] ah yeah [06:05:16] that’s true [06:09:07] Translation will need some work, how it’ll be worked is TBD [06:24:59] Legroom said he cannot translate now, I can and it's not much work for me to do [06:32:21] Requested. [07:34:44] @rodejong you watching quali? [08:19:50] the next time someone says this shit they can just walk out now [08:20:25] miraheze can't afford people threatening every so often to leave, if people are gonna leave then they leave [08:20:46] I'm sick of the quitting culture used to achieve agendas [08:31:09] A mess, I see. [08:31:46] Can I suggest cool heads [08:32:23] I've spoken to many people this morning and please just give people time to actually think [08:35:12] I woke up to this. [08:40:38] Anyway, do you think pre loaded templates for wikis is a good idea? [08:42:05] specific templates, no [08:42:17] options to bring in and maybe opt into preloading, I see merit [08:43:03] something like a starter kit for those inclined to then adjust, but it shouldn't necessarily be put onto wikis outright but rather be an accessible tool, and one they can't miss [08:54:49] How could it be ddone? [09:02:04] I reckon the best answer is in the request form itself, offering an option to implement on wiki creation [09:02:33] otherwise the new proposed main page (not sure if implemented) will make explicit mention of dev wiki and dev wiki has an important job to do in offering this stuff cleanly and upfront [09:02:39] alas the dev main page is not so good with this [09:04:02] What templates do you think shouild be a choice to reload? [09:04:31] How would you redesign the dev main page? [09:04:49] make it an index to get straight to the sorts of things you want [09:05:12] don't tell us it offers x y and z, put x y and z right up for use [09:06:55] Have an index of the categories with templates? [09:07:18] as for what idk, I guess starter stuff that gets commonly imported and that's a conversation between people more directly savvy on that sort of thing [09:07:28] an index like that might do [09:07:46] Wonder if "packs" of pre made temploates to choose from would be helpful [09:08:12] that is what I'd reckon [09:09:39] No "one size fits all" really, as worldbuilding wikis need diaffnt templates from say, a travel guide wiki [09:10:29] if request form way will be a thing, it would need a full list of templates w/ flags to choose from [09:10:35] Tbh "wikipedia replica" low dependancy templates may be helpful [09:11:01] or only several most popular, and a link to dev wiki if they're looking for something else [09:11:20] so they'll be able to import after getting the wiki [09:11:52] What templates do you consider worth listing>? [09:16:01] [1/3] country and character infoboxes seems to be the most popular [09:16:01] [2/3] navbox base, 1 module variant (Fandom's Navbox or NavboxBuilder) [09:16:01] [3/3] hatnotes (stub, delete ...), links (for, main, gallery ...) and licenses ofc, but I'd say these types can be bundled into fresh wiki regardless of requester's decision, they are the most universal and are needed in waste majority of cases [09:17:19] because they are more wiki's organisation? than wiki's subject [09:19:12] What changes do you think needs to be made to Dev's main page? [09:21:39] What changes do you think needs to be made to Dev's main page? [09:22:04] @raidarr Suggests it could be an index of templates, maybe by category I suggested [09:22:51] I haven't dev wiki in a while tbh [09:24:03] man, I'll have to go to work tomorrow to fix shit but at least it's gonna be paid [09:26:08] it can't be too much of a list lest it risk option overload [09:26:30] so really the form should just offer basic avenues, perhaps just stuff like having PortableInfoboxes open by default, while actual samples/templates are offered on dev wiki [09:36:19] What kind of templates does Dev lack? [09:36:30] I haven't reviewed it fully [09:38:57] For worldbuilding wikis, a pre made "wikipdi-like" nation infobox would be nice, bgut hard to do [10:05:31] that's a good example to have handy [10:17:53] @rodejong Aston are protesting the definition of stop and track [13:25:12] @rodejong protest dismissed [13:25:30] So stopped equal stopped and unable to restart without assistance [13:48:16] I think a wikipedia stye "person" infobox would be handy for worldbuilding wikis as well [14:24:45]