[00:53:44] So this is the place where people can save MH? [00:54:41] I think so [00:54:57] Not as good as the good old cabal but it will do [00:55:11] RIP Cabal whenever that channel started and ended, lmao [00:55:36] @Kamidere @rabbydevs You guys said you can help out right? [00:55:41] that ended with John [00:55:49] February something [00:55:55] on that note, but off-topic here, I find it kind of amusing how we have NDAs and are trusted with a bunch of private information but apparently people weren't deserving of trust to communicate privately šŸ˜› [00:56:07] well.. we no no longer including me, but yeah [00:56:13] Agree [00:56:16] [1/2] was going to, re-reviewed my schedule [00:56:16] [2/2] turns out i have barely any time to help, however i can provide some help with linux and mediawiki stuff if needed [00:56:34] Yeah. I can definitely help. @ellienyaa might be able to help too. [00:56:35] but im not willing to sign an NDA and volunteer very hard [00:56:43] Iā€™ll start with myself: former Miraheze CFO, former board member of Wiki Spot. Experience in security reviews of media wiki extensions, SQL, and writing Miraheze policies [00:56:45] so sorry [00:56:53] Truely depressing to see the notice although I can't say I'm surprised.. several _key_ staff resigning back to back was kind of a big indicator. I wish I had the time to do more even if it was just what I used to [00:57:01] I am willing to sign an NDA but I'm not personally in the best situation to do things for the next few days [00:57:23] nothing will be happening in the next few days and nobody needs to do anything 24/7 [00:57:29] We need people in the next few months, not immediately [00:57:37] *former miraheze ceo [00:57:38] šŸ™‚ [00:57:46] lol [00:57:47] Miraheze has been a collection of people doing what they can when they can but when people drift off other people try to pick up the slack and burnt out. tbh kinda seems like miraheze was barely saved before ;p [00:57:47] Former Miraheze SRE (MW-admin and puppet-user (ssl/dns access), been with the project for 6 years [00:57:51] [1/5] 1. Steward (see [[Stewards]]) [00:57:51] [2/5] 2. Global Sysops (see [[Global Sysops]]) [00:57:51] [3/5] 3. System administrators (see Tech:SRE) [00:57:52] [4/5] 4. Board members (see [[Board]]) [00:57:52] [5/5] 2-4 require an NDA (see [[Board/NDAs]]) [00:57:52] [1/4] [00:57:53] [2/4] [00:57:53] [3/4] [00:57:53] [4/4] [00:58:01] look i am not a techie [00:58:17] Pretty sure 1 and 2 are backwards.. Stewards have access to PII i don't think GS do [00:58:24] Look it would be great if people had experience but we would also love for people who want to learn as well [00:58:28] well it's a big starting boom with some people labster [00:58:28] i am not knowledgeable about comps ci. but i respect this mission deeply and will learn [00:58:30] 1,3,4 require an NDA [00:58:32] 2 months is very short you know [00:58:34] yes, true [00:58:35] I didnā€™t know a lot when I joinedā€¦ [00:58:36] sorry [00:58:37] fixing now [00:58:40] is simply learning feasible? [00:59:03] All of the experience I had before joining Miraheze was stuff I learned on the job at Miraheze.. I was literally made a sysadmin after just contributing administratively for a few months šŸ˜… [00:59:04] fixed [00:59:04] @b.wm maybe also put a "smallest amount still functional" and "ideal amount" of people needed [00:59:07] Depends [00:59:14] doing, good suggestion [00:59:15] also do you have pr or moderation positions. as in things to help with communication across staff or between staff and users [00:59:21] We don't [00:59:24] huh lo [00:59:24] I am about to get a diploma in CS but I do not know mediawiki at an advanced level except from a user perspective. I do have 30k wikipedia edits and frequently edit templates. [00:59:42] Like, I'll 100% say I just can't do anything in Miraheze like this, I'm just a bystander [00:59:47] The types of volunteers needed are those at the highest rank which also require the highest trust [00:59:48] Edited, accidentally said Miraheze twice instead of Orain, which was another free wiki host like Miraheze that shut down [00:59:52] myself: Tons of experience with CSS/JS (particularly frameworks but a decent bit of vanilla js), fair experience with linux, running myself and using as prodeng at work. minimal mediawiki experience (hosted a couple instances, worked somewhat in the codebase but didnt finish anything) [00:59:55] Any chance that the people who left would change their mind upon seeing the community step up? [00:59:57] so it's hard to obtain these sorts of volunteers [01:00:05] would love to learn more about mediawiki in order to help [01:00:06] Most have moved to a new farm so I'm unsure [01:00:17] elaborate [01:00:19] Well, it might be worth a shot. [01:00:24] I think, rn, there needs to be a lot of dialogue [01:00:30] between people like Void and others [01:00:35] Orain should count as negative experience, like Fandom /s [01:00:46] Prior knowledge, ability to understand complex issues, ect [01:00:52] šŸ˜… Listen I liked Orain before Dusty ran off with the money [01:00:57] I've dealt with mass volunteer exodus in the past, it always snowballs. And there's always a backflow of people that come back once the emotions settle. [01:01:00] complex issues? as in what kind [01:01:00] experience: CS @ oxford, 1yoe at frontend shop, recently moved to prod eng at Jane Street [01:01:07] prior knowledge of what? [01:01:14] Honestly unless there are specific legal liability issues, I think taking people you don't 100% trust is better than shutting down, especially when you have all the necessary funds to continue [01:01:25] it's safe to delet my wiki's existing data dumps to make room for new ones, right? [01:01:31] Programming, computer science, ect [01:01:34] again, no techie. i can help on community and moderation tho. communication most of all [01:01:44] done [01:01:46] urgh i got zip experience with that [01:01:50] if anyone here has suggestions, let me know [01:01:57] All those stating they donā€™t knowā€¦ you can learn. If you want to contribute donā€™t let lack of experience prevent you. As long as you are willing to learn [01:01:57] Well I mean yeah, that's the whole issue. Can we trust someone to handle PII and have complete access over all passwords, credentials, IPs, and more? [01:02:02] @Juwi mind a pin on this? [01:02:14] iā€™d probably be more comfortable in the swe role but seems like sysadmin is more necessary? [01:02:21] mods or whoever, pin this please [01:02:43] hey talthiel, since you seem to complain alot, why don't you help out with saving MH with tech stuff? [01:03:02] I said I can't, I've already got a lot of other stuff going on in my life [01:03:19] and I don't have the time, patience, or drive to actually run or do something like that [01:03:20] i am. but it's hard to tell staff from user just by role color so i am unsure if compsci students are wanted [01:03:22] <.generalnuisance#0000> [1/3] I know a small amount of MediaWiki and JS and I'm pretty decent at CSS and HTML. Good at communication (and I'm bilingual!) [01:03:22] <.generalnuisance#0000> [2/3] Learning PHP & SQL thru college [01:03:22] <.generalnuisance#0000> [3/3] I currently work at an IT Help Desk with the Canadian Government servicing Canada Revenue Agency and Canada Border Services Agency so I might be decent in a tech support/communication role atm whilst I sharpen my dev skills [01:03:30] I would like this to solely be a volunteering channel if possible [01:03:38] If you're going to complain, go to #general or #offtopic [01:03:45] This is for people that want to help Miraheze [01:04:08] We should move this up to be a bit more prominent and change its title to volunteering I think [01:04:17] This. My project has literally been saved by a few upstarts that were very eager to learn if it meant saving the project. Do NOT underestimate newcomers with passion. [01:05:13] If Miraheze was somehow saved by community members after a Board resolution to dissolve was passed, that would be the single greatest accomplishment I've ever seen [01:05:25] <.generalnuisance#0000> I am also working on getting my CCNA though I doubt that would be in handy. I am EXTREMELY eager to learn and honestly I've been wanting an excuse to sharpen my dev skills for a while now. However my customer service experience should be useful as well whilst I work on MH enough to end up becoming more useful as a dev [01:05:32] Apologies, just tried to have someone be a volunteer [01:05:56] well now I gotta say then, good luck all of you with your helping hands to save MH. [01:06:33] Me personally: Comp Sci bachelors, decent skill in JS. Not super experienced at all, and my schedule is a tad prohibitive, but I'm just putting myself out there [01:06:38] I actually need to sign the NDA. I just sort of handed everything off to Miraheze Limited and let them do their thing. [01:07:08] I will be one of them [01:07:45] <.generalnuisance#0000> TLDR: I know like babby infant levels of JS and MediaWiki and JS and I'm decent with HTML and CSS. Experience working customer service via a help desk job with the Canadian Government. Working on getting my CCNA, MCSA, Security+, etc through college. I am extremely eager to learn and would ADORE to help and be a part of something bigger than myself [01:07:56] @orduin (sorry to ping) Would it maybe be wise to make like, a google form people can fill out? [01:08:03] Former Miraheze SRE (MW-admin and puppet-user (ssl/dns access), been with the project for 6 years; willing to come back to SRE with the same roles [01:08:17] instead of the disorganized losable that is a discord channel? [01:08:26] you are? [01:08:31] does Board/NDAs not have you listed? [01:08:46] heh I'm a former GIWA for Miraheze, not as impressive but have been here for 3 years [01:08:53] Labster predates the LTD, let alone NDAs [01:08:59] oh, then not [01:09:07] Ok so the biggest thing is there needs to be official infrastructure in place [01:09:09] right now [01:09:14] for getting applicants [01:09:24] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to .generalnuisance#0000> with my skillset - which position should I apply to? [01:09:24] What did we have, like 4 staff when I joined? And then John got sick. [01:09:25] and having their applications and stuff centralized [01:09:33] [1/4] @orduin From what I can tell, currently a possible team for SRE could be: [01:09:34] [2/4] MacFan4000 [01:09:34] [3/4] AmandaCath [01:09:34] [4/4] OrangeStar [01:09:39] will add more as the options grow [01:09:42] + me [01:09:50] done [01:10:01] Maybe pin that [01:10:02] I actually would advise MacFan4000 go for MW EM? [01:10:10] and you go for Infra EM [01:10:16] [1/3] i will be busy for a while, but ill keep watching this discord/project. i am committed to free knowledge and open access to knowledge website making. Miraheze has this ethos, so i'll keep tabs. [01:10:16] [2/3] Anyhoo, i'll back up my stuff this month just to be safe. Thanks for the support so far and apologies for the whininess i gave. [01:10:17] [3/3] Also, yes, i am volunteering for staff training. [01:10:18] I would recommend someone build a Wiki page TBH [01:10:21] Iā€™m not qualified to be EM [01:10:46] will do [01:10:51] No, my knowledge is definitely not infra [01:10:54] @orduin main namespace or subsomething [01:10:57] oops [01:10:57] Can someone post a link to the NDA form? [01:11:04] MediaWiki EM then since MacFan4000 declined [01:11:08] Again, make a google form as well, that people can fill out [01:11:09] email board@miraheze.org [01:11:14] @Board Members will have to see to that [01:11:18] Iā€™d entertain the idea [01:11:23] I'm pinging a lot, will decrease that [01:11:25] apologies [01:11:27] that is suboptimal, but I'll do it. [01:11:48] @b.wm Maybe also list potential applicants? [01:11:49] Owen is the only one who can issue NDAs it seems so yeah [01:11:56] I volunteer for staff training [01:12:24] who has tech experience here [01:12:27] @ me so I can add you to the list [01:12:37] i sent my experience earlier in the channel [01:12:41] would be nice to have a Phab form like WMF but oh well [01:12:44] I do. Mentioned earlier [01:12:54] gonna be honest I can't follow this conversation all the way up [01:12:58] will have to @ me otherwise it'll get lost [01:13:02] or link to the message above [01:13:04] . [01:13:23] On-wiki page where people can list their support is probably the best indeed, yeah. [01:13:28] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to b.wm#0000> I sent my experience earlier in the channel [01:14:12] Again, cannot follow all the way up [01:14:18] but if you can add a message link happy to check [01:14:19] How would the Board work? [01:14:21] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to .generalnuisance#0000> [1/2] . [01:14:21] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to .generalnuisance#0000> [2/2] Also adding that through my college program, I will be getting my CCNA, Security+ and MCSA so there is potential for me to be a bit more useful over time [01:14:29] see [[Board]] [01:14:29] [01:14:40] Because, no offense, I doubt just anyone could literally run the company [01:14:48] If everyone is busy, I can create it so people write on-wiki instead of Discord. [01:15:01] @b.wm I meant that [01:15:55] {{done}} [01:15:55] [01:15:57] elections would have to be held [01:16:05] frankly I don't think there's anyone here that's qualified [01:16:20] Is the whole board gone? [01:16:24] Am I seriously not qualified @b.wm ? [01:16:28] No, Void and Owen remain [01:16:41] apologies, forgot about you haha šŸ˜‚ [01:16:54] I mean, it's a fair position. I am a total goofball. [01:17:01] But I'm not extremely familiar with your history so couldn't be 100% sure [01:17:16] Labster for chairman of the board 2023 [01:17:27] <.generalnuisance#0000> I do hope that my skills might be of. some use. I really do. [01:17:32] This is why we dont let you make decisions anymore /j [01:17:47] @Juwi any interest in returning? [01:17:53] 2024: torches and pitchforks gather. Which is not to say I won't do it. [01:17:57] could you link to qualifications above [01:18:01] or just repost [01:18:07] My request for Global Sysop is live: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_global_permissions#Tali64%C2%B3's_Request_for_Global_Sysop. Please review my reasoning and vote accordingly. [01:18:12] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to .generalnuisance#0000> . [01:18:14] There are always torches and pitchforks [01:18:29] <.generalnuisance#0000> I'm currently a student at the moment so my skills are by no means fully formed [01:18:34] was it reposted..... [01:18:56] oh [01:18:57] it was [01:20:14] <.generalnuisance#0000> but yeah my TLDR is that I have some basic dev skills (emphasis on basic), I'm good with HTML/CSS, I have good communication/customer service skills due to working helpdesk, and I'm in school for sysadmin skills at the moment [01:20:27] <.generalnuisance#0000> + speaks french (not that this would be all that useful tbh) [01:21:17] @orduin could be useful for MW Engineer [01:21:18] I'd love to see github/gitlab histories for people who want to apply. I know that there's half-finished stuff there, mine has it too. [01:21:27] or security review [01:21:38] Yeah, I wonder if that Void guy will do it /s [01:22:26] I'm probably the best security reviewer available. I found security bugs on a bunch of extensions. [01:23:03] <.generalnuisance#0000> I don't have a ton of experience with security and my MW is still basic but I am very willing to learn [01:23:09] for the bottom two pinged here, could you repost qualifications? [01:23:12] apologies [01:23:16] <.generalnuisance#0000> + I will be learning security as I compelte my schooling [01:23:21] just haven't been able to locate above [01:23:25] added [01:23:44] also since @Juwi is online, mind a pin here? [01:23:46] Again, can we please get a google form [01:23:48] Really suggest to just create an on-wiki page that will allow everyone to list themselves there in as much details as possible. [01:23:54] that people can fill out to apply for X, Y, and Z, role [01:24:01] I can do it, but I am not sure whether it is my role to. [01:24:05] Going to do now [01:24:06] Wait, 411 on the clarification please [01:24:11] I'm a software dev, so I can't do everything, but I'm still useful in software roles. [01:24:20] Yeah we really need one [01:24:21] Does that mean Miraheze is no more? [01:24:32] We have a wiki. Someone should make a page on Meta. [01:24:33] or is the bigwigs calling on more volunteers? [01:24:43] Probably; it might remain up and running in the future, but who knows [01:24:47] iā€™m off to bed, mind @ ing me when the page is up so i see it in the morning? [01:24:51] getting volunteers is the last shot [01:25:10] sorry to bother but i dont wanna miss it [01:25:11] <.generalnuisance#0000> I'm not 100% on what my skillset would best apply to but I think Brendon suggested me for possible MW Engineer and possible Security Reviewer but I'm not sure since the message was slightly ambiguous (at least to me) [01:25:13] if a sufficient and sustainable amount of volunteers can't assume control by August, the plan of the first ping continues as normal [01:25:22] Board voted to dissolve miraheze because of a lack of volunteers (after not asking for volunteers ever), community is not willing to accept it and people are volunteering anyway. [01:25:24] General information on what is happening is in #general. See the pins. [01:25:29] Wiki page much better than a google form lol.. [01:25:32] Especially since DiscussionTools have made discussions so easy. [01:25:36] No? [01:25:45] you'd fill out the form [01:25:58] Unless you need to communicate with us privately why would we make a google form? [01:26:08] It's third party and more difficult to allow access to. [01:26:10] Google form is not advisable either from privacy or just usability standpoint. [01:26:12] I see. So Miraheze is here to stay then? As much as possible that is. [01:26:14] alright then [01:26:15] happy to [01:26:20] if a sufficient and sustainable amount of volunteers can't assume control by August, the plan of the first ping continues as normal [01:26:33] Right now, we just need to chat and plan in general about what is feasible. And get a list of potential volunteers. [01:26:34] Okay I'm fixing up [[Miraheze Vacancies]] [01:26:35] [01:26:38] @Juwi why am I not allowed to post links to miraheze on the miraheze server? [01:26:44] you need to /auth [01:26:49] Which means? [01:26:49] [[Requests_for_global_permissions#support]] [01:26:50] [01:27:08] which means if enough people can't be recruited, Miraheze is done [01:27:24] Done? [01:27:31] Over. Goose cooked. [01:27:35] it's being dissolved [01:27:37] I see [01:27:40] moved to [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] [01:27:41] [01:27:58] So rn we have to gather enough staff to continue running the operation then [01:28:09] I still think we need QA on that page, but I'll write when people have calmed down a bit. [01:28:41] We maybe do, yes. But we've only had an hour to react. [01:29:02] Updating as we speak [01:29:06] At this point, emails need to be removed, and there should be just a freeform section with a call for volunteers that you can answer to like a talk page section. But generally a good starting point. [01:29:18] It's a bit complicated and all of the listed positions are not relevant rn [01:29:24] it hasn't been updated yet [01:29:44] @b.wm QA specifically in regards to MW updates. And possibly for adding extensions. [01:30:06] MW updates will not happen right now [01:30:11] and for the forseeable future [01:30:12] definitely not. [01:30:17] and neither will extension additions [01:30:19] I think we should have on every single page on every wiki a banner ad asking for volunteers until the site goes down, saying the site will close without volunteers. I bet you'll get more volunteers than you could ever have dreamed of. [01:30:27] And a link to the place to apply [01:30:32] Even with a new MW team, I would still consider it doubtful [01:30:34] Yeah, sorry. My brain is saying things I thought yesterday. [01:31:02] Going to leave for ~10 minutes, will ping all when done reformatting page [01:31:13] anyone have interest here in me volunteering for a role? [01:31:35] @ me if you want to respond to this so I see it, all opinions valued [01:31:54] You can run for GS: we can't run on 3 [01:32:07] Yeah, I was about to say Steward. [01:32:19] If you all could setup the applications page, I can make sure it hits a central notice when it's ready. [01:32:22] We really, really need board members as well. [01:32:31] Yeh [01:32:31] mind if I ping you when it's done? [01:32:34] shouldn't take too long [01:32:47] @paladox is it okay if I DM you real quick [01:32:52] just want to clear the air on a topic [01:32:54] Sure [01:32:58] thanks [01:33:10] That should be after more sre lol [01:33:50] what does the board actually do [01:33:54] I'm forgetting we're not in #general as well. We need everything. [01:34:02] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to b.wm#0000> hey just wanted to clear up if this was you saying I could be useful for MW Eng/Security review or saying that Void was. Sorry if I'm being obtuse lol, it's late and my ADHD meds are starting to wear off [01:34:45] I will go offline for today but you got my application here. https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Talk:Miraheze_Volunteering_Opportunities [01:34:45] How many people are there for potential volunteers? [01:34:58] Well, mostly setup policy, manage Trust and Safety, and do the budget. [01:35:01] There was a list in the backlog of about 10 people? [01:35:03] you [01:35:04] lol [01:35:09] Also, this might be a bit much, especially rn, but maybe you guys need to get a sort of cyclical thing going on for lower positions [01:35:18] will have a better place to post shortly [01:35:18] and have like, backups [01:35:21] <.generalnuisance#0000, replying to b.wm#0000> thanks for clarifying lol [01:35:22] Since there is no google form we cannot count well, but I think around 10 people were shouting at people to be allowed to volunteer ijn this chat [01:35:47] what does everyone here think of Meta admin for now [01:35:53] No one is making a google form. If you want to volunteer, say so here or on-wiki. [01:36:09] at least for right now I want to assume more of a functionary role as opposed to dealing with counter-vandalism specifically [01:36:15] Emailing sre@ or making an access request directly for technical roles is best [01:36:18] On-wiki is better for tracking [01:36:23] [1/2] I really don't get why everyone is swearing by google forms, I'm pretty sure none of you would be able to see it anyways? [01:36:24] [2/2] Also discord should be for fast communication not long-term notes or record keeping. I'd say add your name to the wiki if you're interested in volunteering [01:36:26] or a formal request [01:36:34] Okay, actually logging off for like 10 minutes to make this page [01:36:42] will ping all involved when finished [01:36:59] <.labster#0000> Please do so @b.wm . [01:37:00] and I'm going to remove a lot of this advert wording as it's annoying me [01:37:04] from the page [01:37:16] <.labster#0000> that's what page history is for. edit boldly [01:46:29] Just have updated with the first draft [01:46:41] Please refrain from editing the page until I mark the page as finished here. [01:47:13] that wasn't 10 minutes [01:47:33] <.labster#0000> [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunitiesā€Ž]] fyi [01:47:34] [01:48:54] Not entirely sure I can do this as a day job, part of a hobby and here as another hobby :p [01:49:09] we don't expect it to be a day job, we don't pay lol [01:49:18] we just can't have fully inactive people [01:49:23] <.labster#0000> We can only pay in Whuffie. [01:49:28] btw thoughts [01:49:58] Oh, no, I meant my day job is this sorta stuff already :p I work for Wikimedia [01:50:09] oh [01:50:11] .. do i want to know what Whuffie is [01:50:14] what roles are open? [01:50:17] as a sysadmin? [01:50:21] please please please join [01:50:24] like please [01:50:26] I feel like the answer is everything [01:50:32] Literally this [01:50:34] oh nah there's a pin [01:50:38] I don't have the time :p [01:50:39] <.labster#0000, replying to Juwi#1337> It's the "currency" from Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom by Cory Doctorow. [01:50:52] @Board Members I would consider a resolution to re-delegate T/S duties to SRE [01:50:54] I feel like that might be a book I might like. [01:51:00] Trust and Safety really isn't doing well [01:51:37] No [01:51:41] Absolutely no [01:51:46] oh? [01:51:47] why [01:51:55] The board can appoint people to t&s [01:51:57] I agree with Paladox on this one [01:52:12] T&S needs a overhaul but that aint the solution [01:52:14] <.labster#0000> Yeah, T&S is completely different than SRE. [01:52:16] But sre should not have the responsibility of t&s [01:53:21] SRE used to have T/S duties [01:53:40] i can apply for a steward role. [01:53:42] <.labster#0000> If someone wants to serve on both that's fine, but honestly it's a separate job that shouldn't be put on tech staff. [01:54:15] We also werent incorporated back then either [01:54:19] @orduin to clarify, can you handle NDAs [01:54:22] or is that Owen-only [01:54:24] true [01:54:26] You are talking almost 5 years ago [01:54:34] well I guess we need a Board section [01:54:54] Owen only, he has all the documents. [01:55:32] well when Owen gets online.... [01:57:34] I think you should add freeflow section still for people who don't know yet what they can commit to, but want to share their intention. [01:57:44] that's what the interest part is for [01:57:49] I would like to help in any way I can. I have some MediaWiki, Lua, JS, Python, HTML, CSS experience, but nothing too complicated. I would be more than happen to handle some of the menial tasks so that more experienced members can focus on the trickier tasks instead! Iā€™m not sure but I would love to help if at all I can ^^; [01:57:56] it's not firm dedication, just an initial note of interest [01:58:06] [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] [01:58:06] [01:58:07] But you need to pick a specific interest there. [01:58:09] but don't edit it yet [01:58:12] Which isn't the best. [01:58:18] you can state interest for any number of positions [01:58:20] ty ^^ [01:58:20] there isn't a limit [01:58:37] I know, I'm saying it increases the entry point. [01:59:28] Also, the page can probably be reformatted to allow the use with DiscussionTools. [02:00:01] okay the SRE section is live [02:00:14] but don't edit yet [02:00:15] please [02:00:26] I will die if all that goes away before I add the community and board sections [02:00:28] (I am not touching it, but I strongly suggest making the page easier to use.) [02:01:22] not sure how to format with discussiontools [02:01:39] the only reason I don't like the idea is because it gets harder to track a conversation and proper interest well [02:01:44] Just add posts that end with your own signature, so people can respond to them in specific sections. [02:01:55] that's not what I mean [02:02:09] I mean I don't know how it would work properly meaning tracking interest [02:02:13] it gets clumped and messy [02:02:19] I mean, you can moderate discussions if they are not needed, that's not the point of why the page should be easy to fill in. [02:02:41] People suggested Google form because it is easy, "edit wiki page properly for us" is not easy. [02:03:44] [1/3] Hi friends - sorry to hear about the possible demise of Miraheze, it's a very useful service and I have been rooting for it for many years. If there are aspects of this where some amount of significant financial assistance (although probably short of full-time salary) would help, feel free to DM me. [02:03:44] [2/3] I will say that as an outside observer, it certainly seems like the main thing that would get in the way of recruiting a solid team is the seriously unstable management/political situation. You will have a hard time finding serious tech contributors when it seems like every few months there's some massive drama that everyone threatens to quit over. If I were in your shoes, [02:03:45] [3/3] I would be looking at the organizational failures before trying to jump immediately into recruitment [02:04:00] tfw you don't have real-time preview enabled for your wikis [02:05:45] Recruitment still would help to avoid issues like "3 people can decide to stop it all". But yes, organisational changes are needed. [02:06:03] Might I suggest adding sections on the talk page to indicate interest instead of on the page itself? [02:06:16] I will be proposing massive overhauls to Miraheze if it doesn't dissolve [02:06:28] Actually, this solves @thelevking's concern as well [02:06:29] Honestly its going to be rough, ive been in this project for 6 years, ive seen tons of people come and go, the issue is its always been the same handful of people including myself who have done alot of the work that miraheze needs between burnout and opiniona that differ, I think long standing issues have finally came to the surface [02:06:33] can't believe I didn't think of that [02:06:34] doing [02:08:50] [1/2] Like, for context, I run the RuneScape wikis, and we have three full-time technical (MW) staff (with more coming soon). We have the budget where we could realistically take over operations. [02:08:50] [2/2] But I'm reading back on the last few months of drama, and it really, really turns me off from wanting anything to do with it. The public image that Miraheze is projecting is incredibly chaotic [02:09:33] And I can pretty much guarantee that most of the really good people you'd need to really fix this situation, even just on the technical side, are scared of getting involved for the same reason [02:10:04] I'd say the only upside to the current situation is that most of the people involved in that drama are no longer involved in the project. [02:10:20] Something to ask you real quick [02:10:31] Offtopic, but can wiki creations resume? [02:10:45] If I was to run for Steward, but not sign an NDA, would there be a way for me to execute the duties of Steward (minus CU/OS) without signing an NDA? [02:10:46] It seems far too early to make that call [02:10:52] including this announcement šŸ˜¦ [02:11:06] probably not until they can be sure they will have the will and resources to look after the servers [02:11:19] if not then it's fine but a question as I'm not really interested in dealing with all that, rather the bureaucracy side of things is my area of expertise [02:11:22] Even just the constant drama tweeting, everyone pings, internal fighting spilling into the mainstream [02:11:35] i mean what would those duties include? another role could probably be made but as-is, no, because Steward has access to PII even if you don't want those duties [02:11:36] No way to unbundle that really [02:11:57] Like, when I look at the Miraheze situation now I just see un-serious leadership [02:12:10] Or at a minimum, un-serious communication [02:13:02] for personal reasons I wish not to sign an NDA for the time being, I asked as that would be a way for me to positively impact the community while fulfilling my personal wish [02:13:10] if not then it's fine [02:13:15] I dont know if I would say unserious leadership, more as a leadership at their wits end [02:13:18] [1/2] This is more of a topic for #general, but while management problems were clearly there, it is also pretty easy to explain just by the fact that it is all community-run, so the expectations end up to be lower. Wikipedia also has constant bickering, which is just a different version of that. But then you look at the Wikimedia Foundation and paid emp [02:13:18] [2/2] loyees obviously do not hash conflicts out in public as much. [02:13:20] It was a long shot anyway, just thought I'd ask [02:14:04] Isn't this global sysops basically? [02:14:18] no, GS has no ability to deal with bureaucracy [02:14:24] Stewards can do a little more [02:14:25] Ah. Oh well. [02:14:54] <_chrs_#0000, replying to thelevking#0000> bickering is essentially the price of democracy [02:15:05] eh, personally I think that's not the most reasonable explanation. We did RuneScape on our own with no paid staff for about ~4 years. We some of the same underlying problems (internal drama, overburdened tech staff), but we found ways to deal with them that didn't existentially threaten the project [02:15:12] <.labster#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> I know that there are serious organizational issues that we need to fix here, and I hope we can get there with a mixture of new and old staff. [02:16:42] [1/2] ya my question is why announce the end of the project rather than an indefinite hiatus until new staff can be found [02:16:42] [2/2] to me it seems like you guys have a tendency to escalate things [02:16:46] <.labster#0000> I have given some thought to forming a committee to investigate the organizational and social structural issues revealed over the past few months. I'm still trying to decide if it's valuable, but if it is I already have some people in mind to investigate. [02:17:20] Now you have me interested [02:17:22] <.labster#0000, replying to jumbods64#0000> They got tired of fighting and gave up, I believe. [02:17:54] I agree with this - things get escalated without allowing for time to think through the logical consequences of whatvever communication is made [02:18:13] It is great to hear that about RS wikis, but it does seem more common that minor differences can split the communities/people apart a lot in wikis. So I don't think it is unique to Miraheze. Your community was good at solving those conflicts, many others aren't as good at it. [02:18:34] actually @Stewards [02:18:34] And then the new (bad) communication just causes problems of its own, and invites thousands of people to watch the spectacle [02:18:41] It's like...the exact opposite of what you want to do in this situation [02:18:52] <.labster#0000, replying to zppix#0000> I mentioned this in #general a couple of days ago. One challenge is that people might not want to listen to the answers we find. Another is that people might not want to talk to us. But if it's valuable, it might give us some insights. Things are obviously broken in some ways here, but that doesn't mean solutions are obvious. [02:18:57] is Meta under a conservatorship? [02:19:01] we have no bureaucrats [02:19:03] Honestly if I was in charge I would clean house of anyone who has pinged everyone or tweeted about this nonsense [02:19:06] Yes, this is a clear communication error. [02:19:21] Technically its me and void [02:19:26] you? [02:19:31] At this point, it is your single biggest problem, because it's preventing you from getting a good staff together [02:19:34] oh are you the only active Meta admin left besides Void [02:19:35] Or keeping the one you have [02:19:39] Im the only non-steward sysop on meta [02:19:40] well I'm running for Meta admin/crat now [02:20:08] how do we nominate ourselves for stewardship? the page shows one steward and it's void [02:20:18] And I don't feel good, you know, taking pot shots from the sidelines, but the way y'all are approaching this is absolutely not going to work [02:20:20] its like trying to hire an electrician when all the electronics in your building are exposed wires near water [02:20:24] Are you close to finishing the opportunities page? [02:20:33] mostly yeah [02:20:37] Dm me, Iā€™m interested, and I may have some insight [02:20:39] [1/2] > Things are obviously broken in some ways here, but that doesn't mean solutions are obvious. [02:20:40] [2/2] I've heard from various sources over several years that Miraheze has systemic issues. However, I do not recall one serious proposal of what an actual problem was, nor any ideas on how to fix the situation. [02:20:43] by 7:45pm PT should be done [02:21:33] Basically inaction to enforce policies to the letter, lack of accountability, ect is what my take as always been [02:22:19] <.labster#0000> No organized effort to get volunteers. Lackluster fundraising. Policies not enforced. I blame myself for a lot of these as well, so I mean I could easily be part of the culture that started the culture problem. [02:22:19] Got a pen and paper..? I know plenty of people with opinions on that [02:22:30] Lol sammy šŸ¤£ [02:22:38] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:Requests_for_permissions#BrandonWM_(Administrator_and_Bureaucrat) [02:22:58] If you actually want to solve this problem, most organizations in similar circumstances tend to bring in outside counsel [02:23:10] Not to be too harsh here, but miraheze's reputation is well known [02:23:24] <.labster#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> Give us money for outside counsel please. [02:23:49] In this case I probably don't mean an actual legal functionary [02:23:56] <.labster#0000> I'm going with the university model of putting together an investigative committee. I know at least one person with a lot of experience in government willing to do so. [02:24:17] But some third party that's respected by everyone and has no existing stake in the project [02:24:22] Ohhhh thatā€™d be nice [02:24:30] Brandon you do not meet the criterion for crat, FYI, you have to be a current sysop [02:25:01] I've requested both [02:25:08] it's kind of an emergency situation [02:25:29] I don't think you'd be able to obtain such, even in this situation [02:25:34] ^ [02:25:41] Bureaucrat at least is quite unimportant [02:25:46] then we have a bigger problem [02:26:10] I'm told I'm trusted, if I can't obtain admin in this bad of a situation, then how is anyone else supposed to help with anything? [02:26:24] I think obtaining permissions is not the focus in this situation. [02:26:28] it's only because Meta is in a conservatorship [02:26:29] The community set the rules [02:26:31] I find it rather odd that you guys are debating whether a certain action (RfA, RfB, etc) fits into the existing paradigms of Miraheze, when you announced an hour ago that the project is shutting down imminently [02:26:39] this as well [02:26:51] martial law or whatever the equivalent is [02:27:04] Same, honestly. Only reason I don't blame myself more for the situation we're in is that I genuinely did not (and still don't) have the mental fortitude to do everything that needed to be done. I most regret not pushing volunteer recruitment prior. [02:27:17] But yes, the rules go out the window if you've just said that you would shut down the project anyway. (I just don't see how those user rights are relevant to anything.) [02:27:25] Would you be willing to stay on if we could get some more volunteers? [02:27:41] I'm rather worried that there will be power grabs now and some roles will be staffed by people who do not know how to manage these roles well. If Miraheze recovers, we'll have people in positions of power who cannot deal with roles they have and who may prove to be a greater liability than asset that they were during an emergency situation [02:27:43] Yeah, let the RFA/RFB do it's thing, and IAR as needed. [02:27:51] <.labster#0000> I'm just bad at dealing with people (but please vote me onto the board of directors, thx) [02:27:56] IAR is what got us here. [02:27:56] done [02:28:08] owner of miraheze is vacant [02:28:10] Mr. Chairman [02:28:20] <_chrs_#0000> shall be bring in the Robert's Rules then? [02:28:23] if Miraheze manages to survive, and if people deem me incompetent to serve [02:28:25] thats true [02:28:26] In an advisory manner only. [02:28:28] I'm happy to resign [02:28:32] okay [02:28:38] any help is valued [02:28:44] <.labster#0000, replying to _chrs_#0000> oh, I own a copy of Robert's Rules. The new edition, even. [02:28:48] Yeh those who are burnt out would need a long break [02:28:56] <_chrs_#0000, replying to .labster#0000> and I have a .pdf [02:29:01] I mean, if people wanted everything to happen in a calm and orderly manner, maybe there shouldn't have been an announcement of a pending shutdown of the whole website. [02:29:08] People will assume my request is a power grab. Okay. Here's my promise. Once Miraheze is in a stable position, I pledge to resign all roles. [02:29:24] <.labster#0000, replying to _chrs_#0000> I like paper for reference books. I'm weird that way. [02:29:30] Also, permissions can be given out temporarily, MediaWiki allows this for 3+ vesions or so. [02:30:06] <.labster#0000, replying to b.wm#0000> but will Miraheze ever be stable, Comrade Brandon? [02:30:08] There is a way to crawl out of this hole, but it involves doing things that pretty much none of you are currently doing right now. Like all of this is pretty textbook how-not-to-manage-a-crisis [02:30:18] <_chrs_#0000, replying to .labster#0000> can't object to that. now let me explain how the provisions to handle complete abuse of power by the chair can be turned into the nuclear option [02:30:19] I can give advice on how I would go forward but I'm not sure who the operative decision makers are [02:30:22] I feel itā€™s a bit odd that people who have arguably been a large part of Mirahezeā€™s demise are ā€œworriedā€ about the future of such if it survives. [02:30:24] As long as it isn't shutting down, I pledge to resign [02:30:33] [1/2] exactly [02:30:34] [2/2] its catastrophizing [02:30:36] stable = company not dissolving [02:30:41] Seems like both sides are making a mountain out of the molehill and focusing on the wrong thing. Whatever website permissions request there is is not important. [02:30:44] [1/2] exactly [02:30:45] [2/2] its catastrophizing [02:31:01] Yeah tbh, the wrong thing to do is worry and bicker about perms [02:31:04] <_chrs_#0000> like what we need is tech resources [02:31:08] The biggest thing yall need to do is right the ship [02:31:14] And set it on a stable course [02:31:14] and also giving up on things instead of finding different ways to do them [02:31:16] <.labster#0000> @cookmeplox please tell me what to do. More than likely I'm going to climb this hill with my pal Sisyphus. [02:31:19] Come up with a plan to get volunteers, address organisational problems, do not focus on hat-collecting, etc. [02:31:26] and also giving up on things instead of finding different ways to do them [02:31:27] Not worry about who gets to have the fancy badge that says "owner" [02:31:29] is someone [02:31:33] able to save miharize [02:31:38] Hopefully [02:31:43] <.labster#0000> I saved it before. [02:31:43] @zppix have a second? [02:31:45] people here [02:31:49] i wouldn't says "someone" as if some hero will appear, thats overly simplistic [02:31:50] who want to help [02:31:54] Labster = Bruce Wayne, confirmed [02:31:55] Yes [02:32:00] @Gilimaster28 please stop writing like that it is annoying [02:32:17] that is literally what we are talking about [02:32:21] will DM [02:32:22] Sorry about that I am just very shocked multiple people. [02:35:01] I am glad there is a way to save Miraheze. [02:35:39] ye [02:35:58] we just have to take things calmly and rationally so we can solve the problems at hand [02:36:37] <.labster#0000> The shock hasn't quite passed, because the board kind of sprung this on everyone. [02:36:40] [1/3] i do think the best thing to do is [02:36:40] [2/3] 1. anyone who needs to step away due to stress does so, and [02:36:40] [3/3] 2. hire some new help [02:37:28] [1/2] easier said than done, but yeah [02:37:28] [2/2] also, 3. address what lead up to this moment so that communication and management failures of this kind will not happen again [02:37:29] <.gtbot#0000> well yes thats what we want [02:37:40] I think we need to just sit back [02:37:44] <.gtbot#0000> but who to hire [02:37:55] and allow people to apply or something [02:37:57] well tahts what were talking about right [02:38:03] well [02:38:03] I hope Brandon finishes their work on the volunteer call to action page. [02:38:12] nearly done, have 3 mini-sections left [02:38:14] Applications are open though I'm not seeing any emails to sre@ yet [02:38:15] <.labster#0000> Everyone interested in volunteering should go post on [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] [02:38:17] [02:38:20] seeing what needs to be done now and who is able to do that in a reliable manner [02:38:25] we're not doing emails to sre@ [02:38:31] it's interest on the talk page [02:38:35] * on the talk page, the page is being edited [02:38:35] ah, was that changed? [02:38:36] THE TALK PAGE PLEASE [02:38:38] not the page itself [02:38:42] yep [02:38:42] #tech-community [02:38:55] that way it can be public and so discussions can be had as opposed to private emails [02:39:09] it seems like a better way for the community overall to gauge as only SRE have access to sre@ [02:39:34] oh I see, you changed it [02:39:39] I thought an EM did [02:39:53] Wiki page is just easier for people than writing an email. [02:39:57] I think it was an overall discussion [02:40:12] @orduin recommended it as well [02:40:24] anything works [02:41:25] are we barack or is it joever [02:41:45] Can you stop trolling please [02:42:22] just because i don't take this seriously doesn't mean i'm trolling [02:42:28] go away turqoise name [02:43:22] and [02:43:23] DONE [02:43:26] [1/9] Cook's patented 4 part plan to get out of a crisis: [02:43:26] [2/9] - Slow the fuck down. Don't make any big decisions right now, because there's a lot going on. Don't tweet anymore. Honestly you would almost be better off deleting what was previously communicated [02:43:27] [3/9] - Don't try to solve this by having people request rights. I'm not familiar with the full gamut of different hats you guys have, but I don't think Rfs are going to be helpful on the ~few weeks timescale. Also don't immediately jump into trying to recruit for technical positions - the vast majority of these people that have chimed in, whi [02:43:27] [4/9] le well meaning in their tech volunteering, will be a net drain on your resources.. [02:43:27] [5/9] - Instead, focus on getting a solid management team in place that can communicate with care and will be viewed by everyone involved as a steady hand [02:43:27] [6/9] - Miraheze is quite well-known in the internet world, and it's kinda shocking to me how the whole thing is balancing on a knife's edge due to what seems to be very avoidable bog-standard internet drama. It is quite abnormal for an open-source community like this to fail so spectacularly, and the sooner you guys internalize that, you will be better e [02:43:28] [7/9] quipped to move forward. If you want the org to survive, I strongly suggest a deep dive into what went wrong. As I alluded earlier, the ideal scenario is that you can get some outside third-party to investigate, rather than doing it yourselves (since pretty much all of your problems seem to be internal-political in nature). This is what big orga [02:43:28] [8/9] nizations do after major failures - I can give a lot of real-world examples if you'd like. So try to think about uninvolved third parties (maybe someone in MediaWiki world, maybe someone just more generally in open-source software) that you collectively can trust to investigate and make recommendations. Otherwise you're just gonna be investigating y [02:43:28] [9/9] ourselves and things will probably go badly [02:43:29] we're working it out [02:43:44] thank you [02:43:57] i dont think theres any guarnetees yet [02:44:07] agent wbu [02:44:09] i noticed you're back here [02:44:57] Hey Cook since you're here, was there an internal policy over at RSW on handling internal drama before it makes it to the general public or was it just up to the volunteers themselves? Maybe it's my memory that's failing me, but I never got the impression that things were ever on fire over there [02:45:09] <.labster#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> This is a great plan. Right now, I'm trying to channel immediate interest into somewhere we can use it later. [02:45:50] Can you create sections for every position on the talk page instead, or some sort of united section where people can put their interest in? [02:45:54] <.labster#0000> We need a new management team somewhat immediately, though. [02:46:04] "Please list your name on the talk page by adding a '#' symbol (which will input a number), and a brief description about why you think you could help Miraheze in this role." is gibberish [02:46:14] yes [02:46:15] Are there any people interested [02:46:22] I can do it myself if needed if you've stopped updating the page. [02:46:34] <.labster#0000> I'm going to talk to everyone tomorrow, to see if I can judge where they are at. Especially @Owen. [02:46:43] would be preferable if you could, Iā€™m going to go eat dinner and be back in 20 [02:46:45] I think it should just be three sections for every type of position potentially available. [02:47:25] not really. we didn't actually have anywhere to discuss stuff privately as a group until about 2017, which I think is mostly after you were involved. i think we were all just individually invested in making the site look good [02:47:32] and part of that was not blasting off whenever something didn't go our way [02:47:49] and we tended to ostracize the (very few) people who did act that way [02:48:02] Will do [02:51:59] when you say immediate interest, are you talking about interest in doing technical volunteering? [02:53:16] <.labster#0000> Right. Basically no one volunteers for months, and now everyone was willing to help today when we were at risk. [02:53:36] Ah, I see [02:53:43] <.labster#0000> Every crisis is in some way an opportunity. [02:54:02] ya unfortunately thats tends to be how things go [02:54:09] nobody wants to help unless it feels urgent [02:54:17] ok more accurately [02:54:28] Well, if you want my sort of depressing counterpoint, I think you will have a pretty abysmal hit rate on people that just come in when there's big news and say "I can help! I am a software engineer!" [02:54:45] <.labster#0000> Oh I know, but at least we know who they are now. [02:54:51] few people VOLENTEER to help unless its urgent [02:54:55] <.gtbot#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> wait is somthing more go wrong then the people incharge saying "I don't want to do this anymore" [02:55:07] [1/2] i do think those people would help anyway tho [02:55:07] [2/2] its just that they dont feel the need to do so [02:55:11] Done [02:55:13] Like, when we made a big deal about needing to run ads on RSwiki to pay our tech staff, we had probably a dozen people be like "this can't be so hard, I would like to volunteer" [02:55:17] kind of a "taken for granted" effect [02:55:24] <.labster#0000, replying to .gtbot#0000> yes. [02:55:24] I reached out to all of them and had a very, very bad time [02:55:50] <.labster#0000> brb dinner [02:55:53] Maybe 5% of the people who volunteer for this sort of thing, when it's newsworthy, will make positive contributions [02:55:56] Getting people to volunteer for free has always been difficult but it's great to see that people want to step up, albeit now [02:56:02] see the page [02:56:07] I will try [02:56:58] Any potential volunteers can now read the page at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Miraheze_Volunteering_Opportunities and comment on its talk page with the roles they want to potentially help out in [02:57:40] <.gtbot#0000, replying to .labster#0000> what happened then? [02:57:43] Mind if I post this to #announcements [02:57:54] I would honestly not do that if I were you [02:58:11] Like I've given my 2c but I think this is absolutely the wrong approach for right now [02:58:12] <.gtbot#0000> like how is it just not they don't want to do this anymore? [02:59:10] I think keeping the announcement to here is fine, yes. [02:59:14] Then it's getting a pin, and I'm heading off for the night. [02:59:57] <.gtbot#0000> like is there something im misssing? [03:00:18] I see, from what I understand on comments from the ex-volunteers here and the recent announcements it seems the opposite of those 3 things you've listed out has gotten MH in this situation. I don't think I can question passion of volunteers when morale is good, but as for the other two I wonder how that can be 'fixed' [03:01:10] I kind of agree, but I also do not see what approach can be taken other than an open call-to-action. [03:01:28] Who is actually in charge? [03:01:47] Considering the Board just decided to shut down the website, no one? [03:02:34] The Board. [03:02:38] Owen is the chair. [03:02:38] Okay. So we're asking people to volunteer for something that is extremely nebulous, right? Who do they ask for more information? Who is managing them? How do you make the (serious) volunteers feel that this is a good use of their time? [03:02:44] But no one single person is in charge. [03:03:14] [[Organisation]] sort of explains our structure [03:03:15] [03:03:20] I understand what the existing structure is [03:03:32] Currently we are just asking people to state their interest. Maybe that should've been clearer in my communications. [03:03:43] I don't think that is a good use of time right now [03:03:55] if anyone wants to add to the descriptions be my guest [03:04:02] Really it should follow a LTD structure more coherently, with a Director appointed by the board. [03:04:04] i was in a time crunch so i just took the minimalist approach [03:04:21] Owen is the only one with physical access to servers [03:04:24] which is why [03:04:34] Yeah I'm starting to get the impression that this sort of structural problem is the cause of a lot of issues [03:04:46] I am not losing hope [03:04:49] on this wiki [03:04:56] (specifically, the lack of a clear executive) [03:04:57] Single points of failure need to be addressed [03:05:33] Lack of a clear and definitive power hierarchy is one of the major ones ^ [03:06:02] The community wields a great amount of power so sometimes things are hampered there [03:06:02] <.gtbot#0000> well if a point of failure is people being able to leave and we can't stop that [03:06:18] You can have the community be ultimately in control, while still maintaining a functional executive [03:06:23] Those are not mutually exclusive [03:06:40] My personal impression was that Miraheze was straight up closed to volunteers. If they asked for volunteers they really didn't do it effectively. [03:06:59] The issue is that the positions that require help are the highest where you need a lot of trust at [03:07:18] and to get there, you have to begin at the bottom, like answering questions in #general, on the Community noticeboard, etc. [03:07:23] and some get bored with that [03:07:27] Perhaps that is not the right approach then [03:07:28] they want to press buttons ASAP [03:08:05] This was specifically requested by the community members and seems like an extremely small action to be deliberating much. It is not like we are giving anyone keys to the servers or something. [03:08:31] That is definitely, in my opinion, not the right approach. Eg, Perkins Miller wasnā€™t actively involved in Fandom before he was made CEO. [03:08:41] in fact, I donā€™t think he ever had an account. [03:08:45] Right now we definitely need to just garner support [03:08:58] Fandom is a corporation, their model doesn't really apply here unless we switch gears and focus [03:09:07] Like, the whole board itself needs to be reconstituted and like all the staff positions too [03:09:12] The semantics are the same. [03:09:15] You probably should switch gears in some regard - the current operational model is clearly not working [03:09:22] It worked enough [03:09:40] The problem was that burnout and a lack of drive to recruit burnt out the staff from the inside [03:09:44] Honestly, from the outside, the level of bureaucracy in Miraheze always seemed to be entirely disproportional to how much bureaucracy was actually needed. [03:09:50] See, I don't think that's true [03:09:53] The structure itself wasn't like institutionally broken [03:09:57] From what I can tell [03:09:58] I agree with this [03:10:15] I think there needs to be more redundancies [03:10:16] You guys have a LOT of different types of hats, and most of them are overwrought and probably not necessary [03:10:24] And they restrict contribution [03:10:27] Just trying to clear the air here: do people consider my requests a few minutes ago power grabs? [03:10:31] trying to clear the aor [03:10:51] The clear issue appears to be that some volunteers believed themselves to be outside of the ā€œlawā€, and other volunteers had a paddy when they couldnā€™t get their own way. [03:10:58] honesty is appreciated, iā€™m not judgemental either way but am trying to get a clear picture [03:11:04] open to all [03:11:09] I would not characterise them as power grabs because it is uncivil, but it is hard to see the need for them from the way they were worded. [03:11:19] There's not a lot of bureaucracy though. At the global level, the only staff are Stewards and then sysadmins [03:11:36] Is there something that Meta administrator/bureaucrat roles were helpful in? I don't see that justification. [03:11:51] Meta admins are just the mods for Meta [03:12:27] Maybe to the person involved in all of it, but I was always on the sidelines to it all and it looked like roles upon roles upon roles upon roles. [03:13:22] this @thelevking [03:13:26] All roles serve different purposes. The only really important ones are Stewards ("staff" you could call them), Global Sysops (global mods who clean up vandalism", and that's about it [03:13:30] The technical volunteer roles seem overcomplicated to me [03:13:31] and currently Meta is in a conservatorship [03:13:36] ie. itā€™s bad [03:13:41] not really [03:13:42] Not really [03:13:47] there's dozens of wikis with no crat [03:14:00] not the main MH wiki though? [03:14:12] Arguably, Meta bureaucrat shouldn't exist [03:14:23] There's no need for it [03:14:26] Rather useless role [03:14:36] just bundle it into Stewards and bam, another less role [03:14:39] Unless you make sysops the defacto crat it is needed [03:14:45] The problems should be solved when they are happening, and no one is really doing anything weird on Meta yet. [03:14:46] Stewards dont need additional duties [03:14:47] at least from my perspective: in normal times i wouldnā€™t request this, but we canā€™t be picky when MH is on the verge of extinction [03:14:54] Meta crat does nothing [03:14:59] Meta RfCs are extremely rare [03:15:16] and having to use UserRights occasionally to make new sysops isn't a huge inconvenience [03:15:17] Yes but meta does need autonomy [03:15:24] It needs less autonomy [03:15:43] The central wiki being sometimes at odds with global operatives has never sat right with me [03:16:01] Anyway, we are sidetracking a bit, it seems. [03:16:08] we indeed are [03:16:17] we're supposed to be talking about tech roles [03:16:41] Well i throw my hat in the ring in that aspect what happens from there [03:16:48] Is up to whoever [03:17:03] Hopefully, we'll gain enough volunteers to keep the ship afloat [03:17:14] I would note that 3rd point is crucial here and everything else will be from there [03:17:25] God, that breaks the reply interface so much [03:17:39] It would be useful to try to understand/address why the existing tech volunteers have slowly evaporated [03:18:00] Most of them have been sre for 4-5 years [03:18:04] Or more [03:18:07] It's hard to find people who know MediaWiki and who are willing to work for free in helping solve other people's tech problems/act as tech support [03:18:30] The bulk of people who know about MediaWiki either use it to maintain their own service or contribute to WMF itself [03:18:38] heh [03:18:46] Example above ^ \:) [03:18:54] weren't you a wiki creator at one point? [03:18:57] Whats that sammy, you volunteer? šŸ¤£ [03:19:02] I guess I should restate [03:19:11] No, I get paid [03:19:17] $$$ [03:19:36] why would someone work here when they can get paid? lol [03:19:39] It seems like the disappearance of tech volunteers tends to mostly happen in fairly large groups, after explosive internal events [03:19:41] i would support an EM bid [03:20:04] Thats part of it, alot of is just burnout [03:20:06] This is the first time tech volunteers have ever been wiped out like this [03:20:14] Not exactly [03:20:15] never before has there been a mass resignation [03:20:18] Wasn't there a eerily similar situation ~3 months ago lol [03:20:25] Only John and UO quit [03:20:27] <.gtbot#0000, replying to agentisai#0000> thats why free things don't last [03:20:42] now we have me, Reception, and the whole SRE team calling it quits [03:20:49] yep [03:20:51] I know a bunch of other tech people threatened to quit then [03:20:54] Maybe they got talked down [03:21:09] difference between 2 people and 5 people is not that big in a small team [03:21:11] Or actually, fully resigned and then came back later [03:21:13] It predates you agent, but a few years ago we did have a point where alot of resignations were threatened, but in the end only one or two resigned [03:21:24] in ye olden days [03:21:35] IMO, we should declutter tech roles to be just Infrastructure (root) and MediaWiki. Combine every role/responsibility into those two umbrellas and simply let volunteers do what they are capable of doing. [03:21:40] Like, I get it, burnout is real and I'm sort of uniquely positioned to understand the difficulties you guys had [03:21:50] And that's a contributing factor [03:22:01] But it always seems to come to a head whenever there's internal drama [03:22:05] Burnout + lack of proper dispute resolution skills are the two big one I think [03:22:07] That was going to be part of the plan I had in mind since I threw my hat in for mw em [03:22:24] Sysadmins getting formalized into this complex and huge org made things so fragmented [03:22:46] This seems like a semi-standard 'breaks the camel's back' reason in many volunteer orgs [03:22:46] I'm technically Community Engagement Specialist who just happens to have mw-admins access, but I'm not a MediaWiki Engineer [03:23:15] That dont even make sense šŸ˜‚ [03:23:18] I think the idea of immediately reconstituting a tech volunteer team from absolutely nothing, when you guys are at your lowest point, is fairly naive and unlikely to work [03:23:27] Strong organizations don't just magically form [03:23:29] weird system lol [03:23:51] Actually wouldnt be that much of a change, thats how it used to be [03:23:59] This might seem stupid but, how does Wikipedia succeed? Despite also being a nonprofit? [03:24:02] This does seem like a worthwhile idea [03:24:05] Despite being volunteers? [03:24:14] They have a 400-person staff and a $100m/yr budget [03:24:17] It pays its stafg, and has the money to do whatever it wants [03:24:17] Brand recognition = lots of wealthy donors [03:24:22] Huh nvm [03:24:34] Also seems like either lack of proper dispute resolution venues (even internal ones) and/or lack of communication guidelines that would make the relations and fallouts at least somewhat cordial [03:24:42] Miraheze needs like less than 0.1% of their profit to survive [03:24:43] Cause I was thinking Miraheze could try to emulate in some form, the way wikipedia sustains itself [03:24:55] Administratively [03:25:04] We do follow their model in most things [03:25:06] That wont work [03:25:11] and I think that's what has messed up Miraheze [03:25:15] Cause how else did they survive before they hit it big [03:25:20] This makes sense, although I think it would be worthwhile to try to address the second one before you address the first [03:25:39] Most of Wikipedia donations are grassroots, they just have a properly paid staff that can do good fundraising. [03:25:42] They had a pretty decent investment [03:25:54] The bomis babes <:Sunglaso:603351762614616084> [03:25:54] I mean again, administratively [03:26:00] First one certainly, though for the second one we do have the Code of Conduct and Volunteer Conduct Policy (for all the good those did us) [03:26:11] Even if a company has a lot of money, if everyone leaves its fucked [03:26:14] Money helps solves some administrative issues when you can pay people who's job it is to solve problems. [03:26:21] CoC was always a mess to enforce [03:26:25] Thats another issue, we failed terribly on enforcement [03:26:26] Wikipedia had strong leadership early on [03:26:35] Then we need that [03:26:44] It was backed by Bomis too, they had some early access to funds to help them grow [03:26:54] Miraheze needs to come back with strong leadership and strong enforcement, especially of the Code [03:26:57] Googling it, "The majority of our funding comes from donations ($15 is the average) from people who read Wikipedia." [03:27:22] I'd say that 95% of our wikis have one or less viewers [03:27:32] maybe around 50% of our wikis are inactive and abandoned [03:27:42] That has to be a sizable resource drain... [03:27:49] If we want to save on infrastructure costs, I'd say that we tighten up wiki creation criteria [03:27:59] would this require board resolution? or can it just be done [03:28:08] We let everyone and their mother get a wiki with very little if any obstacle [03:28:17] What board? :p [03:28:18] remember step 1 of my patented plan [03:28:20] @agentisai I have some thoughts [03:28:21] Not sure how that would help the organisational problems though [03:28:23] Last I checked, the stat was indeed at 50% of wikis closed or inactive [03:28:40] Was only ever up to the Engineering managers, not board [03:28:50] I'm veering off into monetary issues which plague Miraheze perennially and which are a source of issues for us every so often [03:28:54] <.labster#0000> @Cook. I very much agree with slowing down. Everything in this channel today should be seen as brainstorming, and not necessarily the direction we want to go. [03:29:10] you sort of have two tiers of monetary issues [03:29:11] So I'm assuming a bunch of people use Miraheze wikis as repositories, would it be possible to like, announce that all inactive or dead wikis will be closed unless they are used as repositories? [03:29:19] one of them is probably fixable, one of them isn't [03:29:25] people will revolt [03:29:28] I just know it [03:29:35] The repositories stay [03:29:41] gentle dictatorship [03:29:41] <.labster#0000> On the other hand I definitely need feedback as to what has not been working, as I've not been involved in the governance of Miraheze for the past 3 years (I think). [03:29:42] The dead ones who's members are long gone go [03:29:44] I mean [03:29:51] the first is that you're constantly in danger of running out of infrastructure money. this can probably be fixed because your annual budget is so incredibly low. like we could easily fund it [03:29:55] oh [03:29:56] Either way, dead wikis have been unable to be deleted because of the Swift outage a while ago [03:30:08] the larger problem of not having paid staff is probably not fixable though, at the scale you currently operate [03:30:11] On one hand, I get it, on the other hand, it does seem kind of futile to search for ways to tighten up the ship while it still goes towards Titanic. [03:30:12] We can't delete those wikis because their images won't get deleted which means that they'll be stuck on our servers forever [03:30:13] problems problems problems [03:30:31] <.labster#0000> It would be better to move to some paid staff. [03:30:43] Hah, Swift [03:30:49] it's easier said than done, and often not worth the hassle in practice given how much money you have [03:31:09] Did we ever confirm that? I've been wondering about that for a while now. [03:31:15] That seems like it'd be risky given the financial volatility of the company [03:31:19] That being said, if I were to be appointed to the position I volunteered for I would stay unpaid, I never joined this project to be paid, period. [03:31:22] Hey there, is it somewhere I can offer my help? I know my way about server admin and stuff šŸ™‚ [03:31:23] No idea tbh [03:31:25] <.labster#0000> There was a plan not that far back to have a subsidiary for-profit called WikiForge that could provide funding and resources back to the nonprofit. Obviously that went down poorly, but it was a good idea in theory. [03:31:25] @agentisai have a minute for content policy! [03:31:33] Hours of my life lost to fixing Swift [03:31:36] I'll prioritize that now [03:31:40] Are you calling it quits, though? Youā€™re clearly trying to have your cake and eat it with WikiTide whilst also trying to keep claws in Miraheze. [03:31:44] Swift is nice but a mess [03:31:45] What about contracting some roles instead of full time staff? [03:31:59] Keep it civil please [03:32:05] That costs money [03:32:08] thank you [03:32:11] No, I'm not. I've been asked to stay on and I will [03:32:24] I think we've veered off talking about fixing organizational issues no? [03:32:26] all roles? [03:32:30] Yeah [03:32:30] or just SRE [03:32:32] <.labster#0000> There are grants and sponsorship that we've never gotten, but we got a rather sizable grant at WikiSpot when I was on the board. [03:32:39] oh so you need steward and all back [03:32:45] <.labster#0000> Being a US 501(c) is helpful. [03:32:49] I'm still Steward [03:32:52] cc @orduin [03:32:56] Yea and you only pay when you have money vs staff where youā€™re required to pay a certain amount. [03:32:57] oh? what? [03:33:20] We realistically dont have the funds to consistently do that [03:33:20] this model doesn't really match the labor requirements of operating a site like this [03:33:44] I investigated that but a great issue about that is that we can't get any of those benefits as we're not a UK charity, the only type of company that can qualify for a lot of grants [03:33:57] I really wanted to propose to the Board that we incorporate in the US [03:33:57] This isnt a janitorial position that comes in and mops the floors once a week, these type of roles can be 24/7 at times [03:34:05] ^^^ [03:34:06] <.labster#0000> Yeah, the labor is near full time. I mean, in the early years, Miraheze only survived due to all of the unpaid child labor. [03:34:09] in this case @agentisai could you see DMs for something [03:34:17] We were rejected - we did try to become a U.K. charity [03:34:17] prefer not to ask publicly [03:34:27] nice, child labor [03:34:33] 501c in the US has much less strict guidelines than UK charity fwiw [03:34:34] But itā€™s strict [03:34:51] <.labster#0000> I applied and got public charity status for Wiki Spot. [03:34:57] Yeah, UK charity requirements are far too hard which is why I wanted to get Miraheze to incorporate in the US as a 501 [03:35:08] 501(c)3 in the US would be better than incorporation in the UK [03:35:28] Alot less legal hoops to jump through as well [03:35:31] So what's a day in the life of someone with Miraheze shell access? [03:35:37] <.labster#0000> You should absolutely blame me for not incorporating in the US when I had the chance. [03:35:40] Chaos [03:35:40] How many days a month are people actually doing things that need those elevated permissions? [03:35:52] 24/7/365 [03:35:57] (I run a wiki farm so you can be extremely technical if you want) [03:35:57] how realistic is that and what would it mean for keeping Miraheze alive? [03:36:14] [1/6] > SSL request [03:36:14] [2/6] > DBQuery error [03:36:14] [3/6] > Extension bug [03:36:14] [4/6] > pls install extension [03:36:15] [5/6] > please implement this in ManageWiki [03:36:15] [6/6] > Miraheze is on fire, help!!! [03:36:16] in that order [03:36:20] <.gtbot#0000, replying to pigeon43#0000> nothing [03:36:29] You forgot the 503s [03:36:34] that's the last point [03:36:50] what exactly do you mean by "SSL request" [03:36:55] like what does that mean in this context [03:36:59] Custom domains [03:37:02] ah [03:37:06] Custom domain requests require you generate a LetsEncrypt certificate [03:37:11] the classic [03:37:30] Should've got strict deployment schedule like WMF so you worked less šŸ˜‚ [03:37:31] What's the root cause of the DBQuery-ish errors? [03:37:47] Partially migrated schema? Not enough juice? etc [03:37:53] A wide variety of things, it's never the same thing [03:37:57] One does not simply schedule when jobrunners decide to go crazy back in my day as sre [03:38:08] <.labster#0000> Yeah, if we knew what it was we would have fixed it already. [03:38:09] Sometimes it's extensions going haywire, sometimes it's MediaWiki core bugs, other times it's users messing up somehow [03:38:26] What percentage of your time is spent directly or indirectly dealing with extensions [03:38:26] like I remember there was a time where deleting bureaucrat caused entire wikis to die [03:38:35] 45% [03:38:36] šŸ„“ [03:38:42] Perhaps there is a lesson there [03:38:51] Making the stack more lean should've definitely been considered, yeah. [03:39:00] ManageWiki should definitely not let people delete sysop and bureaucrat but something something ideology [03:39:15] Ehhh [03:39:21] I am surprised this is allowed [03:39:28] Most of the deployment stuff is automated, most of sreā€™s job is fixing stuff and ensuring that fires dont start [03:39:48] yeah, a lot of automated but we need even more automation with such a huge farm [03:39:57] Biiiig reason we (WMF) are touchy on extensions (and even then, stuff breaks) [03:40:16] WMF extensions are always the sturdiest [03:40:19] until they're not... [03:40:26] yeah except when they're a disaster lol [03:40:27] cough CentralAuth cough [03:40:28] Seems like organisational failures start at "not enough people to make authoritative decisions about things like allowing to delete bureaucrat/sysop group" [03:40:44] A lot of DB issues are from MariaDB ooming. [03:40:45] That's like one of the basic things that shouldn't be done in any MediaWiki setup [03:40:47] Thats more of giving local wikis autonomy [03:41:03] Autonomy-shmotonomy [03:41:09] That's an issue yeah but temporarily mitigated by allow autorestarts [03:41:14] Ideally they would know to create a new group prior to deleting [03:41:27] Didnā€™t that only recently become a thing, though? [03:41:31] It did [03:41:40] I guess another question, even if this one is infeasible to estimate: if you had maybe ~twice as much infrastructural resources, how much of the mediawiki/SRE load goes down? [03:41:42] It shouldn't be easy to cut off your fingers via user interface [03:41:46] Wouldā€™ve probably been better to fix the route problem than to keep restarting. [03:41:56] Define resources [03:42:01] There's no one around to investigate the issue [03:42:04] machines, let's say [03:42:15] If we could investigate why db121 specifically goes down then I'm sure it would've been fixed [03:42:22] but it's only db121 which does that [03:42:26] Sounds like you're pushing the limits of your compute resources.. [03:42:27] no other database server [03:42:38] we've been pushing them for years now and doing magic somehow [03:42:41] Candle in the wind for Graph extension [03:42:41] I dont think throwing more infra at it is the solution yet, I think lack of humans is the issue [03:42:55] <.labster#0000> most companies would throw more infra at the problem. [03:42:56] @agentisai do you want me to readd you to documentation and all [03:42:57] You would be shocked how much cheaper computers are than skilled labor [03:42:59] That deserved to die [03:43:03] I think infra is a secondary issue but without the humans we cant do anything [03:43:04] no, leave it [03:43:11] okay [03:43:18] Infra is up to about a 1/3 (at most) of our time, I think [03:43:19] EasyTimeline is much worse and that's still alive [03:43:30] :p [03:43:36] @orduin would it be alright if I DMd you with a request [03:43:40] i think only stewards can [03:43:41] Leave EasyTimeline alone \:( [03:43:43] I think this is a bit myopic, it's not either/or. it's about whether specific investments can reduce the amount of (stressful) time the tech people are spending [03:43:51] go ahead [03:43:52] itā€™s been through so much [03:44:08] Its not the simple unfortunately [03:44:19] I'm not saying it should die, I'm saying it looks like it is about to die [03:44:28] Affording it is the other part of the problem [03:44:32] I do agree here fwiw Zppix [03:44:36] If you throw infra at it, you are just spreading issues around, if you throw more humans at it you can fix the issue [03:44:56] I think our infra needs to be rebuilt, but doing that while keeping the current stuff running doesn't seem very possible. [03:44:56] <.labster#0000> Honestly we have always had a problem with investing money in infra, at least during my time here. [03:45:10] Having headroom allows you to build into the capacity, instead of trying to make do with what you have... [03:45:11] Like let's ignore the affording-it part for a sec because that is solvable [03:45:14] Doesnt help prices keep going up [03:45:21] But yeah, you don't have any slack for issues [03:45:24] I strongly believe we should've moved to the cloud had we had the ability to [03:45:24] sent [03:45:30] Having physical infrastructure is a huge no [03:45:33] <.labster#0000> Yes, we need to fix it, but we also don't need to run around putting out fires instead of fixing the core problem. [03:45:41] Definitely a SPOF if only one person has access to servers [03:45:46] physically that is [03:45:47] frankly as well if Owen leaves [03:45:52] we go down as well [03:45:59] so that should ideally be fixed [03:46:07] <.labster#0000> Yeah. I think we'll need to move to the cloud again. [03:46:08] If Owen resigns then there's almost no other choice but to wind down whether the community can find volunteers or not [03:46:18] Cost is way too high in the cloud though [03:46:21] Was physical infrastructure preferred because it is cheaper? [03:46:26] yep [03:46:28] Lets think of it this way, I have a software issue thats causing increased load on the infra, do I buy more infra to even out the load or do I fixed the software issue? [03:46:36] to maintain our current level of service in the cloud, we need 3x the budget [03:46:41] I think this is not the way to think about it [03:46:42] that's assuming we upgrade absolutely no specs [03:46:51] Because it includes an assumption that your problems are software-based [03:47:08] You guys are constantly running at a pretty absurd load [03:47:16] (and/or, have you fixed the problem to date? :p) [03:47:18] There's only so much software tuning can do before we need more infra. And we need more infra at this point. [03:47:22] <.labster#0000> We're running Mediawiki, PHP, and MariaDB. Of course our problems are software based. [03:47:31] Right but those specific things are immovable [03:47:34] I think it depends on what the issue actually is. [03:47:37] Except for maybe MariaDB [03:48:11] <.labster#0000> Does MW really support postgres for real yet? [03:48:18] Okay, fine lets assume its infra problem, we dont have the staff to maintain additional infra, now we have this infra but no one to maintain it so now we have additional issues [03:48:19] lol [03:48:41] If we at least knew what causes frequent outages, then yeah, just solve the issue. But if we don't, and we're not looking for other solutions... [03:48:44] Not really. [03:49:03] Development is focused on MariaDB [03:49:04] Outages on Miraheze are entirely because we don't have enough MediaWiki appservers and databases [03:49:18] Okay so that kinda answers the question, right? [03:49:21] I guess also jobrunner sometimes can't keep up [03:49:23] But 80% of the 7k wikis are dead [03:49:28] I meant errors from db-stuff etc. [03:49:30] Like yeah maybe you can do some really low-level profiling [03:49:32] Thatā€™s a huge infrastructure issue there [03:49:37] Figure out where that CPU time is actually being spent [03:49:46] db errors are different and sporadic [03:49:50] The issue is we can throw whatever at the issue, but it all comes back to do we have the humans to properly maintain [03:49:54] there's no real single root cause for any [03:50:06] again, some of them are extension sometimes not applying SQL correctly [03:50:08] How long has stuff been falling to bits for...? [03:50:11] or MediaWiki core bugs [03:50:18] Uhh ~5ish years [03:50:21] Is it DPL? jobrunners going crazy? Bad db/web latency? etc [03:50:32] Cargo is a huge performance toll [03:50:35] Like maybe there are improvements to be made, maybe you could use the parser cache better than you are [03:50:36] Not sure about DPL [03:50:39] Will state the obvious, but maybe those extensions shouldn't be in production then [03:50:42] Cargo is so awful man [03:51:01] Jobrunners, it seems more like an issue with how jobs are handled by mediawiki itself [03:51:13] We were investigating using it for rswiki and I ran away as fast as I could once I figured out how it was implemented [03:51:22] What do you use as a queue here? [03:51:31] Like, you seem to have got that with CirrusSearch when that was experimented with (and decided against because of the cost), but it's the same here [03:51:32] The errors I mention are sporadic and any extension is prone to accidentally messing up, not sure what triggers that though [03:51:34] Youā€™re no longer at RSWiki? [03:51:35] Cargo gives me such a headache, but it doesn't seem like anyone is capable of making a game doc wiki without it. [03:51:38] I think we match wmf on jobqueue? Iirc [03:51:50] Any extension? Oof. [03:51:57] oh no, to be clear I ran away from cargo [03:51:58] not the wiki [03:51:59] For example, CentralAuth once messed up and didn't delete a wiki set correctly so GlobalGeoupPermsisions was broken for a little bit [03:52:05] despite being a WMF extension, it messed up [03:52:08] Y'all got a habit of copying WMF implementation [03:52:21] Yes, 99% of our model is based off WMF [03:52:23] Thats because how it was setup also wasnt working [03:52:36] We ā¤ļø WMF [03:52:39] The first problem is that CentralAuth is practically unmaintained [03:52:39] lol [03:52:50] snrk [03:52:51] CentralAuth is horrible but no alternative exists [03:53:02] I wish CentralAuth could burn down [03:53:06] and so does WMF [03:53:16] I mean, even at WMF, but just saying [03:53:17] but at our level, there's no real alternative [03:53:22] Anyway, the point I was originally making is: if I could get rid of ~30% of my tech labor by doubling my infra spend, and my infra spend was $3k a year... [03:53:27] Can't wait for MediaWiki SSO 3.0 [03:53:27] that's not a very hard decision to make [03:53:37] I know you guys don't have the money for that now, but you easily could [03:53:42] MediaWiki 2.0, coming out in... 3012 [03:53:50] <.labster#0000> Just as an organizational issue, who is the head of the SREs? [03:53:50] MW 1.40 was delayed so I don't have any hopes [03:54:00] I know there are labor costs associated with setting up this sort of thing [03:54:01] Engineering Managers [03:54:06] I think we are also forgetting that most of sre has no formal training persay in the industry, whereas WMF has experienced DBAs, software engineers, product managers, release engineers, ect [03:54:07] Reception was the EM for MediaWiki [03:54:10] And it's not something that should be done without careful thought [03:54:10] and John for Infra [03:54:22] who manages SRE requests now? [03:54:27] uh [03:54:29] But you guys really need to take a fresh look at things [03:54:32] Void technically [03:54:32] I guess the Board [03:54:49] is Void now the MW/Infra EM? [03:55:01] Void technically can't be EM because he's a Board member [03:55:11] We have no EMs at the moment [03:55:12] And y'all have everything puppetised and in cookbooks right? So adding infra doesn't need labour to set up..? [03:55:17] yep [03:55:26] <.labster#0000, replying to zppix#0000> I think that was the answer I was looking for. [03:55:27] https://github.com/miraheze/puppet [03:55:39] Peaceful day at Miraheze [03:55:40] like if this is what your webservers look like, no shit your SREs are gonna be busy [03:55:41] so...paladox? [03:55:49] Thats nothing [03:55:52] He hasn't been appointed [03:55:52] <.labster#0000> Is that worse than normal due to DataDump madness? [03:55:52] actually no one [03:55:57] No we have no EMs at this moment [03:56:01] That's an average day [03:56:05] No, that looks pretty good actually [03:56:08] <.labster#0000> No, that's not acceptable. [03:56:09] well that's a problem [03:56:09] That's awful [03:56:12] If you look at icinga, you'll regularly see alerts every day [03:56:24] Load can be ridiculous [03:56:25] Welcome to Miraheze šŸ¤£ [03:56:25] Wait 95% load is pretty good [03:56:27] the servers mw121 and mw122 are really bad on load [03:56:31] I guess you could argue that if the website is planning to shut down in a few months, burning through funds is not an issue [03:56:33] very, very good [03:56:58] So I'll revise my tentative "get more compute" to "get more." [03:56:58] My 'i run internal tools for research devs to use' experience tells me that's bad [03:57:08] Please ignore the hamster wheel currently powering our CPUs šŸ˜‚ [03:57:09] That's past the point of "it won't help" [03:57:11] like, it's not something that should be done in the short term [03:57:16] okay so request-related [03:57:24] what are thoughts surrounding MWE appointments [03:57:26] Looking at grafana alerts, today's actually been a very good day infra wise [03:57:29] of OrangeStar and AmandaCath [03:57:31] but i guess what i'm trying to say is, y'all should really think about reframing this whole discussion [03:57:40] right now it's "we need more tech volunteers" [03:57:50] We do [03:57:57] OS has some behavior issues, if he commits to not lashing out then maybe. Amanda hadn't shown she can even code so that's worrying [03:58:01] I don't think that's the thing you need right now [03:58:08] You couldn't pay someone to look after that without the prospect of expanding the infra [03:58:09] <.labster#0000> @cookmeplox to be fair, we need more of everything and the problem is prioritizing. [03:58:14] "hi, server expert here! this is not funny, servers only do this when they're in extreme distress" [03:58:27] slightly offtopic but: I wasn't here when the whole drama took place [03:58:35] Which drama? [03:58:36] is AmandaCath a sock of a cbanned user? [03:58:42] Most people think so [03:58:43] I've heard that a lot lately privately [03:58:44] like right now it kinda seems like you're saying that you need more tech grunts to replace the old ones who left [03:58:51] and I think that is a dangerous way to go about it [03:59:04] there are so many alternative things you may want, that are more achievable, that solve the same problems [03:59:21] Let me throw my plan out there if i were to get MW EM, I would work with infra em to restructure the team to be more streamline, and work on getting additional infra setup, and basically going through and eliminating anything we dont use or need [03:59:26] like maybe what you need is one person who is extremely good with mediawiki to go in and audit your whole thing [03:59:36] for like a month [03:59:48] The latter has been done like thrice [03:59:51] that's a very different ask than "we need new SREs" [03:59:52] We don't have anything we don't need [04:00:03] We even had to shutdown servers like services1 to save space [04:00:04] we still need new SREs [04:00:06] and repurpose it [04:00:08] CLOUD [04:00:10] please [04:00:12] Well, Miraheze still needs them because the existing ones left [04:00:15] it's a pipe dream but [04:00:17] $$$ [04:00:19] Yeah but I tend to go through with a fine toothed comb if it hasnt been used consistently in the last month we dont need it [04:00:20] But yes, your point is very good. [04:00:24] yuppppp [04:00:27] <.gtbot#0000> we need everything tho [04:00:34] <.gtbot#0000> kinda crazy [04:00:38] @Board Members I guess have to discuss this? [04:00:49] I guess you could get rid of test131 and just wing it with deployments [04:00:50] Not really [04:00:50] or maybe what you need is a bit more money for infra. that's a very different thing than needing new volunteers [04:00:56] No no no [04:00:57] No [04:01:01] maybe get rid of mon141 and like that, no more annoying icinga [04:01:03] Someone who is knowledgeable with MediaWiki server management should definitely look into how current structure operates etc. [04:01:06] you never test in production [04:01:17] get rid of mwtask141 and just deploy on any regular mw* server [04:01:21] What could possibly go wrong with testing in production šŸ™ƒ [04:01:24] Nothing! [04:01:29] Murphy's Law doesn't exist here [04:01:36] That could actually work and basically how we used to do it [04:01:58] icinga is useful but isn't it expensive? [04:02:01] or uses a lot of space [04:02:02] mwtask141 actually serves to do resource intensive things [04:02:04] mwtask is for heavy jobs [04:02:07] yep [04:02:15] If we do that on any mw* server, it'll probably die [04:02:29] We could offload that elsewhere, I was thinking have test* do both in a split way [04:02:31] used to bring down mw when any job could run on any mw server [04:02:31] get rid of cp* and move to CloudFlare [04:02:37] No [04:02:40] God no [04:02:42] \:( [04:02:44] [1/6] and maybe you'd be well-served by focusing on why the existing ones left, in terms of: [04:02:44] [2/6] - limiting burnout [04:02:44] [3/6] - automating some fo the more menial things they do [04:02:45] [4/6] - reducing stress around downtime [04:02:45] [5/6] - creating better pipelines to integrate semi-technical people into the group [04:02:45] [6/6] - seeing if there's a path to getting back some of the ones that left due to (at least at a final level) drama [04:02:50] (obviously for pay) [04:02:52] why is this not considered though? [04:02:55] cloudflare is great [04:03:05] like honestly, i fucking love auditing mediawiki installs [04:03:07] I forgot but it's either because it costs too much or ideological issues [04:03:08] it's one of my favorite things [04:03:16] or both, who knows [04:03:17] Both of those [04:03:19] nice [04:03:20] I believe I'd read comments to both effects in the past [04:03:25] <.labster#0000> And here I liked bright copper kettles. [04:03:31] but i am still very scared of getting anywhere near this project because of the political instability [04:03:37] This is not a bad idea. [04:03:52] pretty sure we'd need the enterprise plan [04:03:54] which is a no [04:04:02] i don't think you should assume this [04:04:04] <.labster#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> If it fails now, they can't blame you. [04:04:10] with our traffic at least [04:04:25] My ideal plan of action would be to offload as much as possible across existing infra and introduce new infra [04:04:26] i'm not worried about people blaming me, i'm worried about people getting stuck in the mud for dumb reasons [04:04:27] We'll just blame you instead [04:04:50] <.labster#0000> Please git blame instead. [04:04:58] what is your traffic anyway? rswiki is on the $200/month plan and i think you guys are a fair bit smaller [04:05:12] I think without board buy-in and at least an interim plan, no one is going to touch this [04:05:13] 200k/day I believe [04:05:25] yeah please listen to this [04:05:27] I think we've grown since the last time I checked [04:05:29] you need serious, good technical people [04:05:32] let me checo [04:05:43] and none of them are gonna touch this in its current state. not because of the technical stuff (it's a really fun challenge) [04:05:46] seems to be closer to 300k actually [04:05:51] so 300k*365 [04:05:53] is idk [04:05:55] but because the leadership is a disaster zone right now [04:05:56] I'm guessing a lot [04:05:59] I may be speaking out of turn here, but I think me and labster are very serious about trying to save this [04:06:07] It's a lot of work to volunteer and do something, it's even worse when you do it for no reason because y'all close down [04:06:20] yeah we do like 10-15x that much traffic on the pro plan [04:06:26] oh nice [04:06:31] a day? [04:06:33] actually i should clarify [04:06:35] 300k whats a day [04:06:35] that's pretty good actually [04:06:36] pageviews? [04:06:42] The Ā£200 is the business plan [04:06:45] @zppix sorry to ask you [04:06:47] yeah, I cannot stress enough how bad this Board announcement was [04:06:48] oh sorry, got the name wrong [04:06:49] but one last time: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Talk:Miraheze_Volunteering_Opportunities [04:06:50] we're on business [04:07:01] but I know similar sized sites that are on the $20 plan too [04:07:15] <.labster#0000> Yeah, the announcement was not well handled at all. No help transitioning, no notifying the volunteers first. Just... plop. [04:07:20] (Just for clarification, not to be difficult or anything because I know the offerings on each plan are different outside of traffic) [04:07:22] not sure why you did everything your own way for no reason [04:07:27] <.labster#0000> But that's water under the bridge now. [04:07:32] CF are also pretty decent if you get an "in", as a non-profit [04:07:49] it is not more readable this way, it serves nothing [04:07:51] Unique viewers [04:07:56] Fastly is also pretty good as well. [04:07:56] Page views is twice that [04:07:58] the talk page also stopped working as a talk page [04:08:04] god, this is frustrating [04:08:05] oh, unique viewers isn't the best metric for this sort of thing [04:08:07] They might cut your plan cost or work on something with you [04:08:14] that doesn't really tell you anything about the resource usage [04:08:26] fwiw my experience with cloudflare on this front has been pretty abysmal [04:08:27] so we've around 600k pageviews a day [04:08:33] like I still love the products but the sales team is awful [04:08:34] WMF gets CF for free for example, because WMF [04:08:51] plz share [04:08:58] like you guys did with Wikia \:( [04:08:59] i get emails every few months from some enterprise account executive saying "URGENT - YOUR ACCOUNT IS MISCONFIGURED" [04:09:04] I still dont like the idea of having CF handle CP, because if it goes down, we cant do shit about it [04:09:09] Though it's only used to mitigate DDoSes [04:09:15] and really they're just trying to get us to spend $5k a month, there's nothing wrong with the config [04:09:24] Likely hood of CF going down is like 1% [04:09:32] Its happened before [04:09:47] WHAT THE HELL MAN [04:09:50] i would strongly recommend cloudflare on a technical level [04:09:54] <_chrs_#0000, replying to zppix#0000> down as in temporarily or as in forever? [04:10:08] Either way, y'all chasing the wrong thing [04:10:09] Well temporarily but i mean worse case sure [04:10:10] you can do a lot of really cool things with pageview caching [04:10:11] this is in regards to dyno I believe, not any of you [04:10:19] <.labster#0000, replying to originalauthority#0000> That's much lower than 502/503 time percent at MH in my experience. [04:10:21] I was asked to ping a bunch of people [04:10:26] Let's do this again [04:10:41] Iā€™m sure MH has gone down more than CF. [04:10:42] @b.wm can you explain why you suddenly decided that existing page sections needed to be scrapped on the talk page? [04:10:44] <.labster#0000> I suspect most of our page views are by logged in traffic. [04:10:48] Talk to your board, get some sort of Interim agreement in place [04:10:56] cloudflare has had like >4 9s of uptime for us fwiw [04:11:03] challenge this assumption, it is probably wrong [04:11:04] then look at everything else [04:11:05] The [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] page is now live, interest can be labeled at [[Talk:Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]]. [04:11:05] [1/2] [04:11:06] [2/2] [04:11:07] <.labster#0000> I'm not sure how functional the board is right now. [04:11:14] it's two people [04:11:16] so yeah [04:11:22] too bad RobLa left the Board [04:11:23] Well talk to them :p [04:11:27] Pinging @.labster, @.generalnuisance, @musicbyjvl, @Kamidere as relevant. [04:11:27] The board is Owen and Void right? [04:11:31] I'm sure his insights would've helped [04:11:35] Like, I am not surprised you folks have this much burnout if things like this are done for no discernable reason [04:11:36] Quite frankly I only have trust in one of the board members currently as well [04:11:37] Yeesh [04:11:42] <.labster#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> Probably, yeah. But we have a lot of one-user wikis. [04:11:43] Yes, we need help [04:11:50] Did I delete everything but the new sections? [04:11:51] oops [04:11:54] Without their buy-in, you don't have the "authority" to be planning anything other than closing down [04:12:04] it's fine as is, please leave it [04:12:14] You deleted sections created by me, despite them being more functional than whatever you added [04:12:27] meaning the revisions from before? or the one currently [04:12:40] the one I just set it to [04:12:43] I did not mean to delete, must've been a misclick. Only meant to add to the talk page [04:12:45] got it [04:12:51] apologies [04:13:09] Okay, got it, sorry. [04:13:28] no no worries at all [04:15:10] It seems like this channel is mostly in "what can we do" stage for now, and "what can we actually do" will come later [04:15:14] @zppix do you intend to file an official EM request on Phab [04:15:26] that's not how it works [04:15:31] you're appointed by the Board [04:15:37] No because not at all how it works [04:15:39] sorry but I donā€™t get the difference? ^^; [04:15:53] don't you need to file a request for SRE? [04:16:00] you said EM [04:16:03] should've clarified: not EM specifically but rather EM overall [04:16:11] wtf am I doing right now [04:16:14] so Site Reliability Engineer? [04:16:15] Saying it is mostly throwing everything at a wall for now and not some concrete proposals. [04:16:16] this is what happens on 4 hours of sleep [04:16:20] <:NotLikeThis:946950222783840256> [04:16:22] yes, isn't that a requirement for EM? [04:16:26] no [04:16:26] No [04:16:27] or am I goofing that as well [04:16:27] Perhaps you need to go get some sleep šŸ™‚ [04:16:29] welp [04:16:29] ah I see, thanks ^^ [04:16:30] anyone can be EM [04:16:35] EM is board appointed [04:16:38] yep [04:16:42] sleep [04:16:42] Maybe hold off with hat-collecting for now [04:16:56] what a luxury :p [04:17:04] isn't Reception still EM for now? [04:17:10] he resigned [04:17:10] or was his shell access formally revoked [04:17:21] no one's access has actually been revoked yet [04:17:24] I mean there's zero point if the board says "nah" and unplugs the servers [04:17:25] Like, "slow down" advice is still in place. Not the time to file any requests over this [04:17:25] yeah but I was under the impression that it hadn't been processed [04:17:27] afaik yours still exists as well [04:17:41] I'm still Steward by technicality [04:17:43] so yeah [04:17:49] still got access [04:17:53] Agent indicated he was asked to stay on for the moment and agreed [04:17:55] I believe all community roles have been processed but since no one has the time, not technical ones [04:18:01] ah [04:18:02] literal technicality lol [04:18:19] does Reception? [04:18:26] What needs to be figured out are the next steps, not "how much RfCs we can open in a week" [04:18:39] ah yeah, his shell access is gone [04:19:26] Like ive said we have no EMs the board is the one officially in charge of SRE as of now. [04:19:35] is yours? [04:19:38] This kind of supports my earlier point of Miraheze having too much bureaucracy. [04:19:38] no [04:19:44] oh [04:19:44] what [04:19:54] wait is all access gone [04:19:57] yeah [04:19:57] or just shell for him [04:20:09] as I recall there's a couple dozen services that need removing [04:20:14] Does it matter? [04:20:15] offboarding for SRE is lengthy.... [04:20:23] Brandon it doesnt matter [04:20:25] eh not really just though i'd ask [04:20:44] At this precise moment the company that owns the servers is still going to dissolve [04:20:58] we are in the ninth circle of hell [04:20:59] off to ShoutWiki, everyone! [04:21:03] Servers will be turned off. All goes bye bye. [04:21:04] RIP ShoutWiki [04:21:05] /jk [04:21:21] As Void said, if the community can muster up a team then we might stay afloat [04:21:30] otherwise, it's lights out soon [04:21:35] And the board has agreed to that? [04:21:41] Yea [04:21:43] They've resolved that? [04:21:43] Void is 1/2 of the Board [04:21:45] so [04:21:49] So no? [04:21:55] not entirely [04:21:55] I mean [04:21:58] Owen neds to agree [04:22:08] 1/2 != a whole is it [04:22:09] y'all should listen to Sammy [04:22:33] Yeah, currently you are slicing up an invisible cake, so to speak. [04:22:42] @orduin will the board set requirements for volunteering if Miraheze will survive [04:22:50] Get a resolution, an Interim plan, otherwise this is a lot of talk and volunteers getting their hopes up for nothing [04:22:58] or will there just be a "get some volunteers and we'll judge" type thing [04:23:22] Our decision today was probably too hasty. We definitely should have communicated more with the community before making such a big decision. I'm going to sleep on it for probably a few days, and we'll see what we can do. I've left a message for Owen, so we'll see what sticks tomorrow. [04:23:48] But legally it was resolved, so.. [04:24:02] Until you hear otherwise, it's being dissolved [04:24:03] I don't think this was resolved legally, no [04:24:17] It's in minutes of an emergency board meeting [04:24:26] that wasn't voted on [04:24:26] As far as I know its only a statement not a formal resolution [04:24:34] jfc [04:24:39] UO mentioned it in case we lost more volunteers [04:24:52] but the Board said they'd revisit that later [04:24:58] So none of this happening [04:25:04] Like I said welcome to Miraheze [04:25:07] You just announced something [04:25:27] Honestly, board should resign [04:25:35] I am trying to be civil here but the more I learn about this... šŸ˜‚ [04:25:40] so [04:25:42] Communication from Miraheze the entity has always been confusing to me as someone only loosely following the management side. [04:25:49] Now you see where I stand lol [04:25:51] this is why CES was useful [04:25:51] but oh well [04:25:55] what a shitshow [04:25:59] yooo [04:26:02] I think Void is great [04:26:04] imo [04:26:07] So do I [04:26:10] who'll replace Board though [04:26:11] Is anyone on the board a professional director? [04:26:14] it's just two people [04:26:16] um [04:26:17] no [04:26:18] No [04:26:29] I mean, clearly. [04:26:38] Why do people have such high expectations of us šŸ˜¢ [04:26:39] Question that I promise is relevant: is there a stated asset valuation for Miraheze's capital assets (owned servers, etc)? [04:26:45] no [04:26:54] You take money [04:26:54] I don't believe so [04:26:56] Do you know roughly how much was spent on them? [04:26:58] We have an inventory that lists aquisition prices. [04:26:59] I mean we have the finances page [04:27:06] was meant as a joke lol but I get your point [04:27:25] The one I'm familiar with is more of a ledger of transactions, is there anything that lists assets? [04:27:29] obviously there are high expectations lol, we're incorporated in the UK [04:27:29] I would ballpark... maybe 5k as the upper limit, with deprecation. But keep in mind that a lot of that stuff can't be resold [04:27:35] [1/3] > takes money [04:27:35] [2/3] > is labored on by people for free [04:27:36] [3/3] not a lot to expect [04:27:39] Not unless the board has some internal document [04:28:10] We have an internal assets document, yes [04:28:15] Asking less about reselling and more about transfer [04:28:24] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:Server_usage this is probably closest to it [04:28:25] So new plan maybe, rescind your announcement, make a shit load of apologies, figure out where you stand [04:28:43] Seeing as it wasn't voted on šŸ˜– [04:28:44] Too late to rescind it imp [04:28:54] A two-person meeting does not qualify for standing. In that sense and in parallel to the call for volunteering, a transitional board should be established and the current board should be dissolved. Of course, I don't know the UK laws but it should be like that. [04:28:57] wait then what the fuck are we doing here [04:28:59] It's not a resolution, it's just words [04:29:02] Not doing anything until I sleep on it. Also not doing anything until a plan is forumulated. [04:29:14] does a two-person board qualify under UK law? [04:29:20] Was the board at quorum? [04:29:25] it was 2 people [04:29:26] so yes [04:29:28] I think [04:30:01] <.labster#0000> I have been worried about having a President/Secretary/Treasurer for week now [04:30:02] well without any volunteers, I don't think Miraheze can thrive [04:30:05] oh cc @agentisai: https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T10969 [04:30:14] if all volunteers returned then I think we'll do fine [04:30:39] Decisions made weren't exactly conducive to finding new ones but yea? [04:30:45] Y'all just.. <:scremfox:1050433799869190226> [04:31:15] I guess I have a follow-up question [04:31:16] shell has not been removed [04:31:20] also, hi Sammy, hi Cook. unexpected crossover [04:31:22] irrelevant but whatever [04:31:33] Brandon please, stop. [04:31:34] According to their statutes, they are competent to make these decisions as long as the quorum is at least two. [04:31:44] Wait which Yuri is this [04:31:47] Yes, basically [04:31:57] but..... [04:31:57] long day today [04:31:59] <_chrs_#0000, replying to Galahad#0002> quorum is typically a simple majority, which is 2/2 [04:32:02] maybe if it is irrelevant, no point in bringing it up now? [04:32:04] I.....okay [04:32:05] pt rs wiki [04:32:08] oh shit [04:32:09] hey man [04:32:10] pt wikip too [04:32:18] Why is 2 the minimum for a board though.... [04:32:33] Because 1 isnt a board, its a single person [04:32:36] in order to break a tie, an odd number is needed, and it can't be 1, so why isn't 3 the minimum? [04:32:41] sup lmfao. Chaotic way of re-meeting [04:32:44] Because we barely managed to get three when we started. [04:32:47] or am I thinking about this wrong [04:32:50] Oh [04:32:54] <_chrs_#0000> there have never been board successful board elections [04:33:08] <_chrs_#0000> no community directors [04:33:14] omgg [04:33:17] no one wants to run for Board because your PII is plastered all over the web [04:33:23] yep [04:33:32] is this actually the primary demotivating factor [04:33:33] but everything needed to host a CD election has been on `stewardswiki` for a while now [04:33:39] templates, pages, everything [04:33:42] Frankly, I never ran because I didnt agree with how it was ran [04:33:46] <_chrs_#0000> like when I think about it the idea of "community directors" is kinda crazy (this goes for wikimedia too) [04:33:53] <_chrs_#0000> normal nonprofits have actual members [04:33:53] I've been a director for two companies and a (Welsh) charity... Use a damn proxy address [04:34:01] <.labster#0000> People havenā€™t wanted to make thier PII public as necessary under UK law [04:34:04] Yes [04:34:07] There are so many ways to deal with this [04:34:12] yeah, no one wants others to know their name and age [04:34:12] hey, you should be a board member for Miraheze! [04:34:14] No decision can be made in a body of two people. In the event of a discrepancy, they would not be able to make decisions. [04:34:18] <.labster#0000> Or so I have been told [04:34:19] lol i'm not even joking though [04:34:23] Like your non-profit board does not need to be the literal company directors [04:34:26] Absolutely not! [04:34:30] Question; is miraheze bound to UK by law or could a transfer happen? No plans here, just wondering if that restriction is a necessity going forward [04:34:34] idk Sammy has some pretty good ideas [04:34:48] This question isnt just about labster, just wondering in general [04:34:53] it is, it;s a UK company [04:34:54] Technically a transfer could happen [04:34:57] Oh my, a lot has transpired today. [04:35:00] I'm currently running for the Wikimedia UK board so no chance ;p [04:35:14] legal shenanigans hurt my head [04:35:15] So you have a non-functional board that has never had elections [04:35:19] And there's only two people left on it [04:35:24] pretty much [04:35:24] Basically [04:35:31] Do the two people left on it want to stay on the board? Or do they want to leave? [04:35:38] They wanna leave [04:35:46] we've had people who would be qualified but who haven't wanted to run because they don't want their name and age all over the internet [04:35:58] So you can start to see why I was asking about transferring assets, right [04:36:04] <.labster#0000> Iā€™m fine with it being public [04:36:06] If it is complicated to reach three members on the board, I think it is even more complicated to reach all the seats on the board (seven according to the bylaws). [04:36:07] You have a non-functional company [04:36:16] same i donā€™t care if my info is public lol [04:36:21] What if they change logo to a fox [04:36:23] Come find me please šŸ¤£ [04:36:23] Board had 4 people at one point [04:36:25] best era [04:36:34] I don't care, but I certainly don't have the reputation within this community to event consider running [04:36:36] I don't know if I can ask this without getting some weird looks, but this community skews pretty young, right? [04:36:47] I can't speak for Owen, but I don't want to stay on the board longer than I have to. [04:36:52] <.labster#0000, replying to thelevking#0000> Why, what does the fox say? [04:36:53] <_chrs_#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> child labor.exe [04:37:02] Like for runescape, the average person is probably late 20s [04:37:10] As far as we know anywhere 13+ [04:37:12] But I'm getting the sense that here the average person is maybe late teens, early 20s [04:37:26] I'm just a touch older than that [04:37:28] <.labster#0000> Sadly Iā€™m 40 [04:37:32] My bad, the Miraheze Board have 9 seats [04:37:44] If you're looking to buy.. [04:37:48] Iā€™m going to be 23 this year [04:37:50] Are you even able to leave according to bylaws? [04:37:54] until you find a replacement [04:38:05] <.labster#0000, replying to zppix#0000> Hail Eris! [04:38:07] You dissolve the company [04:38:09] So here's the deal [04:38:12] Early 20s is a good estimate for current volunteers. [04:38:20] Your existing corporate structure is terrible [04:38:29] Yes it is [04:38:32] <.labster#0000> Yep [04:38:35] Initially I was going to suggest, keep the board, delete everything else [04:38:35] about right [04:38:35] dissolve, reboot [04:38:38] what does "longer than I have to" mean to you? [04:38:38] mhm [04:38:40] But really you should just get rid of the company entirely [04:38:48] Agreed [04:38:54] delete everything [04:38:57] Transfer its assets to whatever new entity is made, maybe it's still in the UK, maybe it isn't [04:38:59] including wikis [04:39:03] Where have I heard this before šŸ¤” [04:39:05] <.labster#0000> Everything will burn [04:39:10] Ooof now I feel old. [04:39:12] ideally, we should incorporate in the US tbh [04:39:14] I would recommend far away from the UK as possible [04:39:20] This here volunteer could reasonably be estimatd to have about a decade of additional time on this earth vs several others. [04:39:20] UK is far too convoluted for us [04:39:21] What are your reasons for wanting to incorporate in the US? [04:39:42] || cries in 27 || [04:39:43] US charity easy [04:39:47] I was thinking good ole Canada actually [04:39:54] What do you gain from being a 501c3 though [04:40:01] As opposed to a C Corp or LLC or something [04:40:01] Still making me feel old. [04:40:03] we'd be eligible for 501c3 and we can follow the super simple DMCA and not the cryptic UK copyright statues [04:40:04] <.labster#0000> More volunteers in the US, better access to grants, tax deductible donations [04:40:11] i'm being annoying aren't I [04:40:12] sorry [04:40:14] || screams in 26 || [04:40:20] ^^^ [04:40:25] I'm just wondering if that outweighs the complexity of dealing with tangible assets in the UK [04:40:38] I know nothing about migrating companies over to different countries [04:40:39] Yes [04:40:43] Is that possible? [04:40:46] easy solution, you just burn the servers /s [04:40:46] Can't imagine it does, reincorporate as a CIC [04:40:51] <.labster#0000> Whatā€™s the cash value of those servers? [04:40:51] Realistically, I don't know. I don't have the business experience or know-how to be fully informed on this. [04:40:54] or would company have to be dissolved and then reincorporated [04:40:57] sell our assets and move to the cloud [04:40:59] tbh [04:41:10] you don't have the money to persist in the cloud currently [04:41:13] yeah [04:41:14] just rent some servers from Fandom. [04:41:20] lmao [04:41:21] would the value of our assets cover the costs of the cloud? [04:41:24] great idea [04:41:35] let's see if Sannse is interested in buying Miraheze [04:41:35] your servers have basically zero resale value [04:41:38] can't believe ya'll didn't think of it sooner, right? [04:41:41] just sell the company to tem, seems like a good idea [04:41:44] ||On the bright side, you are senpai and not a kohai|| [04:41:44] sannse? [04:41:48] but they are extremely valuable because that's where all your stuff is [04:41:56] omg Sannse [04:42:00] <.labster#0000> Fundraising after this announcement is going to be hell [04:42:06] aw Sannse is an angel. [04:42:12] that's another problem [04:42:16] Anything is gonna be hell at first [04:42:18] and until you have a migration plan (which itself is a massive undertaking) you are pretty deeply tied to that infrastructure [04:42:24] If Miraheze survives then I'll be in charge of that yet again [04:42:29] so fun times ahead [04:42:33] Even if we somehow manage to keep this thing running, how do we manage fundraising? [04:42:41] Just throwing https://www.gov.uk/set-up-a-social-enterprise out there [04:42:44] Carefully [04:42:49] The question I have is how is Miraheze burning and ShoutWiki is still alive? šŸ˜† [04:42:55] lol [04:42:56] yeah I'm gonna be honest, we were sitting on a lot of money that we wanted to donate various places, and I was thinking about Miraheze in February until that drama happened [04:42:56] Well, _alive_ might be a bad way to put it. [04:43:02] Fundraising needs to be a constant effort [04:43:03] I want to support you guys. I want it to succeed [04:43:06] without Owen on the Board, I don't think we can even incorporate in the UL [04:43:08] Will anyone want to donate to a company that announced its dissolution and then reverted course 3 days later? [04:43:09] I really want to avoid anything to do the uk and companies if we dissolve the current company [04:43:16] so we should consider the US as most volunteers are there [04:43:16] I think we could have easily done $10k or something [04:43:22] Is there something wrong with shoutwiki? [04:43:23] agree [04:43:32] aren't US board privacy laws different as well? [04:43:34] it's been moribund for a few years now [04:43:41] you don't necessarily have to add PII online [04:43:41] stuck on an outdated MW version [04:43:42] But then I realized that your leadership was in disarray and I got scared off from donating [04:43:43] US laws period are much different [04:43:48] yeah [04:43:49] disgusting skin [04:43:50] <.labster#0000, replying to b.wm#0000> Yes. Only the IRS needs to know [04:43:53] board could theoretically be anonymous behind usernames [04:43:57] praise the IRS [04:43:57] who pays for the serves there, because they're obviously not makign any money. [04:43:59] Speaking in personal capacity, it's alive but treading water. [04:44:00] This would be great actually [04:44:10] First time I've ever heard someone said that :p [04:44:17] Like I'm gonna be honest, we (RuneScape) might get $10k a year in value out of your guys dealing with all of the mw migration issues that WMF doesn't catch [04:44:23] not sure but somehow they survive off ads [04:44:24] there is a really important synergy there [04:44:31] Although annihilation might be a good idea, keep in mind that there are volunteers willing to take the plunge. In their best interest a transition process is what the current board should establish. A transitional board should be its successor from there and the current board should be dissolved. [04:44:32] but you need to be smart [04:44:40] <.labster#0000> Cookā€™s idea of a board under the legal directors is a better one [04:44:44] The ugly skin isn't present on created wikis [04:44:52] this is what we do for runescape btw [04:44:54] I still want out of the UK [04:45:05] we initially had it as company directors but it didn't work in practice [04:45:10] the thing is they can't form a board because nobody want's to be on it. [04:45:10] yes please [04:45:18] Can do both ideas [04:45:27] Can be not UK and also have the board under the directors [04:45:30] <_chrs_#0000, replying to originalauthority#0000> we could get one if members didn't have to dox themselves [04:45:40] <.labster#0000> Iā€™ll get you five people for a board by Monday [04:45:47] It's your name and DOB.. [04:45:49] That's all [04:45:53] in the US or UK? [04:45:56] Use a proxy address [04:46:00] yeah but most people here aren't a fan of that [04:46:03] <.labster#0000> US and Canada [04:46:04] Youā€™d be surprised how serious some of our users take privacy [04:46:26] That's just part of being on a board.. [04:46:31] So my biggest issue here is that you are still wildly dependent on Owen, right? [04:46:34] yes [04:46:39] which is why no one wants to do it [04:46:42] regardless of where you incorporate [04:46:46] very much so [04:46:49] please take over the Board and incorporate in the US \:( [04:46:50] Without him we dissolve theres nothing we can do about it [04:46:54] unless we go to the cloud [04:46:58] <.labster#0000> Owen is the only one who can access the physical server [04:46:58] how often does Owen have to trundle down to Stevenage? [04:47:02] No if we change location of incorporation we wont need em [04:47:09] In theory, you could stop requiring people to disclose their wiki accounts if all other board members know who they are. [04:47:12] More often than he has been TBH [04:47:20] like what's a good estimate [04:47:28] last time he went was a while ago [04:47:39] Obviously that makes for less transparency, but it is a somewhat workable solution. [04:47:49] So we are also down to 1 steward as well now? [04:47:53] I believe we've been meaning to replace a few disks and that's been stalled on him [04:47:58] Didn't SC cause the DB outage a while ago by turning the server off whilst it was running? [04:47:59] yikes [04:47:59] In theory we could contract physical access out once so often that wouldnt cost a terrible amount I wouldnt think [04:48:00] 2 technically [04:48:03] Also, "electing a board" is still more bureaucracy tbh, you guys just need a functioning board to begin with. [04:48:04] hm? [04:48:06] I'd have been straight outta' there after that. [04:48:07] Are the servers your only asset? [04:48:12] good question [04:48:14] Yes [04:48:20] <.labster#0000> I also want to make clear that Owen shouldnā€™t be seen as a bad guy here. Just that things got complicated [04:48:23] Once every few months, depending on how the hardware holds up [04:48:28] Who's the other? @agentisai [04:48:32] we own real estate in Saudi Arabia too [04:48:34] don't forget that [04:48:36] Sorry I don't mean "we need to stop being dependent on Owen, he sucks" [04:48:38] and oil rigs in Texas [04:48:41] Agent is [04:48:48] ah [04:48:49] Lmao agent [04:48:49] doesn't Miraheze own the Burj Khalifa too? [04:48:50] I mean "reincorporating in the US doesn't solve the problem that all your servers are in England" [04:49:02] No but it makes things easier [04:49:06] yes, but we let another company manage it [04:49:08] A transitory board āœØ [04:49:10] <.labster#0000> One step at a time [04:49:19] He resigned, but there's some technical glitch that prevents him from resigning to clarify [04:49:19] Burj Khalifa is Arabic for Miraheze Tower actually [04:49:21] fun fact [04:49:27] How many servers, what did they cost? [04:49:32] ah okay [04:49:34] they don't seem to know [04:49:35] Yeah it's a stop being dependent on Owen because he's a single point of failure, and doesn't have the personal ability to travel down to the DC and play with the servers at a moments notice. [04:49:46] The board must have reciepts somewhere? [04:49:46] doesn't provide costs [04:49:57] <_chrs_#0000> I swear at least half the problem with "wiki boards" is that the underlying nonprofits aren't membership nonprofits, which among other things creates such a disconnect between wiki volunteers and actual governance [04:49:58] The accounting pages should have the costs [04:50:04] Owen handles our finances [04:50:07] SRE has a spreadsheet with costs [04:50:07] what do you mean? doesn't that mean that it gets worse because then Owen isn't on the board? [04:50:26] Could this be made public? [04:50:26] ideally, this should've been logged on staffwiki tbh [04:50:29] That seems like a weird thing for SRE to have access to, no? [04:50:29] or is there some reason that it can't [04:50:30] No, it means we have to follow archaic uk laws [04:50:33] what do you mean, aren't membership nonprofits? [04:50:44] mehhhh I can't see that helping [04:50:46] (fwiw the runescape wikis' company is a UK LBG) [04:50:48] Well yeah in that sense it gets better but it gets worse with the server thing [04:50:52] well, I didn't mean all of SRE, I meant EMs and the Board [04:50:55] I don't have access [04:51:00] because then Owen has no desire to help out with physical servers [04:51:16] <_chrs_#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> as in the volunteers are legally members of the nonprofit, who have the actual, legal right to (most notably) elect the board [04:51:18] ya'll need to get FreeAgent or Sage or something to manage this stuff. [04:51:22] What year was the last service acquired? [04:51:23] [1/2] 3x HP DL360 GEN 7 @ ~230 GBP each [04:51:23] [2/2] 2x DELL R620 @ ~399 GBP each [04:51:26] [1/2] okay to clarify here: [04:51:26] [2/2] If we were to move to the cloud, we could dispose of our physical servers in the UK [04:51:40] We cant afford to go to cloud [04:51:41] Which then would remove the single point of failure that is Owen [04:51:42] yeah but cloud is too much [04:51:48] <.labster#0000> Could we have another service manage them? [04:51:48] Having a functional structure of decisionmaking right now is surely a priority over things like what to do with the servers, as that will need to be decided by whatever entity is in place going forward? [04:51:53] and if we were to sell all physical servers? [04:51:54] we could get discounts... if we were a 501c3 or charity... [04:51:54] cloud is super expensive [04:51:57] especially for a wiki [04:52:00] Well, I guess it could help in a way if everyone had to pay membership dues šŸ™ƒ [04:52:06] but that would require us incorporating in the US [04:52:13] Okay can stick to one topic at a time please [04:52:14] oh, is that not how miraheze is structured? [04:52:14] which we can't do because of Owen [04:52:20] that's pretty much exactly what we do [04:52:21] catch-22 [04:52:27] We can have remote hands work on it, but we may need to worry about storage. [04:52:36] keep your expectations exceptionally low for this [04:52:44] 5% off [04:53:07] Any % is better than we get now [04:53:08] There's no actual resolution to dissolve so.. there's no rush on that [04:53:13] jfc [04:53:23] the cloud will never be worth for something like this, no matter the discount [04:53:26] is that anything notable [04:53:36] Define 'notable' [04:53:47] it depends on how much on-prem stuff is indirectly costing you [04:53:50] in this case, it's costing them a lot [04:53:58] Ā£1500/m iirc [04:54:01] 100 mil vs 95 mil or 100 bucks vs 95 bucks [04:54:06] not in dollars, but in terms of flexibility [04:54:13] oh cool, it's $4750/month instead of $5000 [04:54:18] 1500 per quarter actually [04:54:20] wait Ā£1500/m? that's like 5x higher than i thought your costs were [04:54:21] Though calling a board election might be a good idea, now you've got everyone's attention [04:54:23] so 500 each month [04:54:24] so no not really [04:54:30] ah ok [04:54:31] oh I thought it was per month [04:54:34] it saves Miraheze $3000/year [04:54:44] 5%? [04:54:52] <_chrs_#0000, replying to cookmeplox#0000> actually, technically, I believe the original directors are the only members of Miraheze [04:54:56] but still costs them........$$57K?????? [04:55:03] are we really arguing about the effectiveness of a hypothetical 5% discount [04:55:04] stop it [04:55:16] you will almost certainly not find any sort of discount just for being a 501c3 [04:55:24] it would be 57000 dollars per year, with discount, for Miraheze on the cloud [04:55:29] (I pulled $5000 out of nowhere, it was a joke, please stop) [04:55:32] yeah, they like wildly misunderstood you [04:55:36] oops [04:55:47] Yeah, I assumed Void's number was a representative not actual estimates [04:55:50] the point is, only well-known non-profits get discounts of any kind [04:55:58] <.labster#0000> But what if we broke into Fort Knox? This is getting off topic [04:56:03] oh well I'm stupid [04:56:08] feel like that's been a recurring theme todayu [04:56:11] anyway [04:56:27] Focus on getting a decisionmaking structure before crunching numbers about things that can only be decided on after you have that structure [04:56:27] what is the topic [04:56:41] Y'all need a board. [04:56:45] I feel like we need a plan but have none because no one wants to run for the board [04:56:53] Which no one wants to do [04:56:57] it's a catch-22 [04:56:59] we're stuck [04:56:59] Brandon stop [04:56:59] If I could, I would run not gonna lie. [04:57:00] <.labster#0000> Save Miraheze, or something that looks like it <ā€”ā€” topic [04:57:00] As an observation, you jump very quickly from 'here's an idea' to 'doing the actions of said idea' without appearing to take the time the think through all the considerations that said idea includes. [04:57:05] Please for the love of god [04:57:08] Decision making board !== legal board [04:57:43] Either works, because without that we're all just having a nice chat [04:57:47] that is in fact what happens when you have no rest [04:57:48] Can I get an idea of who is actually invested in the continuance of Miraheze? [04:57:55] and some sort of plan on what next steps look like instead of just throwing everything at a wall [04:57:58] (not a sentence I expected to say today) [04:58:03] rest assured this isn't what I'm usually like [04:58:10] I actually am [04:58:20] maybe we should all get some [04:58:46] I'm between "I don't want the service to end" and "I was already planning to move to a paid service for other reasons unrelated to any management concerns" and I've only got one wiki [04:58:49] So I don't know anything about the history here, but really what you're going to want, sooner rather than later, is a strong executive [04:58:57] Like I don't really care about any of the existing organs [04:59:08] I just want you guys to continue to exist because I don't like Fandom [04:59:13] Me either [04:59:27] Brandon, it's been a rough day for all involved, let's take a break. [04:59:27] I think I remember you from there too. [04:59:49] I do to, I have 6 years invested into this community, which is why Iā€™m willing to do anything at this point [05:00:17] I feel like this is all getting out of hand, we should probably find somewhere to document ideas [05:00:30] Otherwise they'll get lost in the void that is this channel [05:00:41] Sleeping on the discussion first and then deciding on a plan is likely a good idea [05:00:48] <.labster#0000> Iā€™ll backlog tomorrow [05:01:02] The channel exists for people to go through tomorrow its not 'lost' [05:01:10] Good thing Miraheze is not closed down yet [05:01:17] It'll just be buried [05:01:24] Yep, and it appears we're in no rush as there's been no formal resolution [05:01:25] Iā€™m going to go eat dinner, if anything is needed to be done on meta just let me know, otherwise ill be back in a bit [05:01:26] But anyone willing to scroll up can still find it [05:01:27] So we're all good for now [05:01:49] this is what I mean [05:01:50] I think my plan for tomorrow is to get Labster and Zppix to sit down (virtually) with myself and Owen and talk about restructuring, collecting volunteers, and what our next steps will be. I think we should do this in a publicly viewable area such as #meetings. [05:01:52] still available but lost [05:01:56] Before I head off, my final 2Ā¢ ā€” get the current board to appoint a couple of interested parties to have a meeting [05:01:57] <.labster#0000> Honestly I just needed to direct the productive discussion to this channel so #general could soak up outrage [05:02:14] <:StrongestSupportMH:945088423469916160> [05:02:24] That sounds like a good plan [05:02:40] #meetings would be good [05:02:59] when a time is set, I assume it'll be posted in #announcements right [05:03:02] Agree with the location suggestion [05:03:03] My recommendation, although I am unfamiliar with UK law, is that the current board should establish an interim plan, convene an interim board and dissolve the current board in parallel with the call for volunteers. [05:03:07] [1/3] Miraheze Meeting - 17 June [05:03:07] [2/3] Agenda: [05:03:07] [3/3] Will Miraheze die? [05:03:13] šŸ˜‚ [05:03:14] just make sure it's locked off to all but those 4 people [05:03:21] not sure about that [05:03:39] Wait void by tomorrow do you mean 16 or 17? [05:03:56] <.labster#0000> Today is the 15th, right? [05:03:58] oh? I thought that's what was proposed by Void [05:03:58] That just seems ripe to side conversations spiling into other channels if its locked down [05:04:04] Depends on timezone [05:04:08] 15th in PT/MT, 16th in CT/ET, GMT [05:04:11] you're living in the past it seems [05:04:17] I assume 16 [05:04:21] same [05:04:22] It's the 16th here [05:04:25] it's 10:04pm here [05:04:29] Well, I'll say we will do the scheduling on the 16th. [05:04:29] Excuse me, I'm living in the correct clock land. šŸ™‚ [05:04:38] Ok [05:04:39] Meeting is whenever we can manage. [05:04:50] <.labster#0000, replying to agentisai#0000> Someone should give a cad like you the 23 skidoo [05:04:55] is this realistic? [05:05:00] asking as I have no clue about UK law [05:05:15] You've both acknowledged you don't know UK law [05:05:51] I don't know, but I assume we can always just delegate a degree of decision-making power to whatever group we form to work on this. [05:06:17] In that case, the current board I think would just be a formality to ratify resolutions proposed by the group? [05:06:21] for legal purposes [05:06:45] <.labster#0000> Owen has missed all of this. Perhaps we need more than a few hours of thought before meeting [05:07:11] We'll just look forward to the announcement of a scheduled meeting when one has been decided [05:07:18] <.labster#0000> I know folks are worried about continuity but we also need research [05:07:20] That seems like a clear action item that is achievable [05:07:37] From my understanding labster we are just scheduling a meeting not having a meeting [05:08:25] <.labster#0000> Yes, weā€™ll schedule it ASAP [05:08:53] <.labster#0000> But it may not be ASAP on the schedule. [05:08:56] If they are not opposed to this, maybe include Cook and Sammy into this (even if they do not intend to do anything in volunteer capacity), since they were putting forward the best proposals here today [05:09:29] Yes, I don't know the law, but coincidentally an organization here is going through relatively the same thing and that is what it proposed. I thought that the idea could work here as well. [05:09:34] someone open the floodgates on #meetings [05:09:51] @orduin see DMs from a few hours ago? [05:09:52] probably counterproductive [05:09:53] šŸ˜® Agent you have color agent! [05:10:05] I've been promoted [05:10:11] šŸ™‚ [05:10:37] but I guess not officially? but sort of [05:10:50] slightly confused but I think that's everyone so oh well [05:11:22] Well I'm going to go get some sleep, have a good evening. [05:11:26] some scattered thoughts: [05:11:59] [1/8] Company structure: [05:11:59] [2/8] - You are not in a hurry to make any decisions on future structure. You probably have many months where you could just maintain the status quo both on a corporate level and a tech level. Please slow down, don't communicate anything major until you're sure it's actually a good idea. [05:11:59] [3/8] - If you guys really think that incorporating a US 501c3 is going to help you (this is still a bit dubious to me - asset transfer might be complex), this transition is the time to do it. If not, you can probably just keep the existing UK company, since the existing structure (LBG) is pretty good. [05:12:00] [4/8] - Either way, your existing decision-making structure is a disaster (running elections is not that hard, they don't need to be company directors). Clean house and fill it with level-headed people who actually want to be there, at least in the interim [05:12:00] [5/8] - For the foreseeable future, you are still reliant on the infrastructure in Stevenage, and on Owen to manage it. Figure out whether he is willing to still be involved (the alternative is probably contracting someone at the colo facility) [05:12:00] [6/8] Investigate: [05:12:01] [7/8] - In the interim, I strongly urge you to find someone to investigate the org failures and make recommendations for changes. I have my own things I would probably recommend (strong single executive under the community-elected board, consolidate technical roles, mitigate the tech people being impacted by site drama, get someone to audit the server resource usage, increase infra [05:12:01] [8/8] spend), but that's just from about an hour of observing you guys. [05:13:26] anyone volunteering to investigate for free? [05:13:28] The issue with the UK company is if Owen does not wish to remain we cannot remain registered in the UK [05:13:44] you don't want it to be anyone you know tbh [05:14:16] this is not really true actually [05:14:16] For the final point re investigation towards failures, I don't think it's just a failure within the organization. The reason why raidarr left was disagreements over the T/S restrictions yes, but also because he couldn't figure out how to move Miraheze forward, the organization but also moreover the community. [05:14:56] If we have the funds, I would personally ask for an outside observer to be paid to do it [05:15:07] How so? Doesnt UK registration require a uk board member? [05:15:08] you don't have the funds. i think pity will work better [05:15:12] it does not [05:15:34] Owen cannot leave actually unless he finds a replacement to take over as Chairman [05:15:34] I was under the impression that that is required [05:15:44] or at least that's how it's been described to me [05:16:21] Getting a completely external investigation may be outside of our means. Are there any recommendations on where to look for that kind of thing? [05:16:39] I can look into it [05:16:47] I could maybe recommend someone [05:16:49] Random injection, discord has a magic timestamp function to help you figure out meeting times [05:17:14] You can google the generator and then you paste the result in here [05:17:24] There isn't a requirement to have a UK based director, but, you do need a UK address to take in your post. [05:17:42] eh, I'd rather we be out of the UK [05:17:46] yeah that's the rule. there are various ways to get a UK address [05:17:46] this, I remember something being mentioned about a proxy address to funnel mail to [05:17:51] <.labster#0000> I have talked to User:Robkelk. Heā€™s done these kinds of investigations in government before. If you need a committee to look into it. [05:17:58] like a company is paid to send you your mail but use their address or something [05:18:05] oh nice [05:18:14] yeah we have used a registered office supplier before in the UK [05:18:26] "Select Committee on Investigating the Faults and Errors of Miraheze, Ltd." [05:18:37] has it worked well? or not so much [05:18:43] However, if you have non-UK-based directors, there are many things that can get very frustrating [05:18:54] Like do you have a bank account for the company? [05:19:04] we do [05:19:05] <.labster#0000> More like office committee to discover how much we wasted on bad software [05:19:18] ah yes, MediaWiki, bad software indeed [05:19:31] we should look into getting into the WordPress buisness [05:19:33] if this means "figuring out how to transfer all assets from the UK", that's probably not a huge priority in the current form [05:19:42] both of your listed directors have UK addresses, are they actually both UK-based? [05:19:56] Void lives across the pond afaik [05:19:57] I think this is what prevents Owen from leaving? [05:19:59] Iirc both is Owenā€™s address? [05:20:01] by his own admission [05:20:04] Owen is our only uk director [05:20:17] is the bank account under the company's name, or Owen's name? [05:20:25] Company afaik [05:20:35] Huh. I'm surprised you haven't run into issues there [05:20:41] I can check.... [05:20:43] <.labster#0000> Owen is an attorney, right? [05:20:45] Why do cheques have to be written to Owen, then? [05:20:46] it's somewhere in these archives [05:20:49] is he? [05:20:53] I dont think so? [05:21:12] Usually banks will require all non-domestic directors to provide proof of identity and proof of address [05:21:17] Doesn't have to be a UK based account, but, it does have to belong to the company. [05:21:21] Which, speaking from personal experience, can be incredibly painful [05:21:22] <.labster#0000> I could have a bad memory [05:21:28] So I'm surprised you have not yet had to deal with that [05:21:44] We did [05:22:05] ah fun. hopefully you had an easier time of it than I did [05:22:20] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1115785920940085351 [05:22:27] see Owen's comment ^ [05:22:52] Who is the account with? [05:23:00] Sammy mentioned something about proxy addresses [05:23:13] (Just saying because if you open a Mettle account, which is a NatWest subsidiary, you can get free accounting software) [05:23:29] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1006789349498699827/1119122655803613184 [05:24:39] I'm heading off now, having too much trouble keeping my thoughts in order (and typing properly). It's 1:30am my time šŸ™ƒ [05:25:14] <.labster#0000> I think weā€™ve hit the wall here on creativity and usefulness as well. [05:26:03] <.labster#0000> Letā€™s come back to the discussion tomorrow/in a few hours [05:26:32] Iā€™ve been dipping in and out- is there any summary of what was talked about very briefly? ^^ [05:27:09] See pins for anything useful, other than that it is mostly just a bunch of technical/legal talk [05:27:25] TL;DR: myself and labster will be scheduling a meeting with the board to discuss Mirahezeā€™s future and possible plans of action [05:27:37] Trying to have people consider this as well, not just legal/organizational changes with the board, and tech volunteer changes, but also the community [05:27:44] I think we've overlooked that tremendously [05:28:12] What prevents us from doing this all again in an undetermined amount of time if we can't fix that? [05:28:26] šŸ‘ thanks yā€™all, imma probably crash tonight too! weā€™ll find a solution dw šŸ§” [05:30:36] Gonna have to a do a backread myself, but piggybacking off this, but wouldn't it be beneficial to have meeting minutes for later? [05:30:58] Nobody can keep track of minutes to be honest in all this [05:31:13] Minutes require precise topics to be discussed before moving on to the next....and there was none of that here [05:32:25] I assumed incorrectly then ha [05:33:35] For an actual meeting in #meetings though, yes for sure [05:38:54] <_chrs_#0000, replying to bwm0#0000> minutes require motions and deliberation [05:39:00] yeah that too [05:53:58] Probably better suited for off-topic, but "Minutes require motions" is a hell of a name for something. [05:55:20] <.labster#0000> Minutes don't require motions and deliberation, but as a parliamentarian they aren't a bad idea. [05:55:42] <.labster#0000> This is just a chat to figure out what is possible. [05:56:49] like aā€¦ pre-meeting meeting? lol [06:22:32] <_chrs_#0000> if you want to be pedantic minutes are about actions taken, but I digress [06:36:45] [1/4] I see that Mirahaze might disappear due to the lack of volunteers. [06:36:45] [2/4] I love Mirahaze, and I would be devastated, if it were to disappear. [06:36:46] [3/4] Is there any role fitting for someone of my skills? [06:36:46] [4/4] (them being C++, C#, Lua, some TypeScript, Linux systems - basically a software developer) [06:38:07] might you by any chance have some PHP experience? šŸ‘€ [06:39:52] [1/2] Sadly no šŸ˜Ÿ [06:39:52] [2/2] But it wouldn't be too hard to pick up, especially now that ChatGPT is a thing. [07:17:50] Suprised no-ones asked the WMF to take on the hosting. [07:18:23] Given that Wikibooks/Wikiversity seem to host a lot of stuff that isn't exactly 'core' Wikimedia material. [07:20:41] WMF will never host wikis like MH does [08:03:47] That's precisely why wikia (now fandom) was created, to have a wiki farm. [08:47:54] Too bad that it is pretty crap [08:50:40] Others interested in doing a team thing for continuing miraheze can poke me. I have voiced my interest in taking care of the infrastructure/hosting side of it. I own www.wdmab.se which is an hoster and ISP. So we have the muscles for it but there are other aspects [09:32:48] I am also generally okay with opening talks on the hosting we started discussing before [10:48:07] [1/2] How is going the volunteering? [10:48:07] [2/2] Do we expect people to start volunteering in Miraheze? [10:48:48] Itā€™s unclear at the moment but there is an initial wave of interest [10:53:18] That's interesting. Thanks for your advice. [11:06:46] All of these are good suggestions šŸ‘ [11:12:25] It looks that way to me too. [11:16:52] What sort of redundancy does Miraheze have for database storage and swift storage? Is each object only stored on one machine? [11:25:32] We are storing backups of the db in ovh backup thingy (public cloud) but we donā€™t backup Swift currently (apart from the ac server). Because storing 2-3tb in backups would be expensive. [11:26:00] [1/2] I agree with this idea of Void. [11:26:01] [2/2] What are we doing to implement this on Miraheze? [11:28:10] I liked the advice of Cook. But none of Cook posts are pinned [11:33:09] makes sense - but in terms of the swift/db stuff getting sharded, everything is only in a single shard, right? [11:33:29] like if I see you're using 2500GB of swift storage, that means you have (roughly) 2500GB of objects to store [11:33:57] Well we have dbs accross several servers but yes your correct [11:34:23] sorry i don't meant to say you have only one shard [11:34:32] but objects are not redundantly stored in multiple shards [11:34:41] Yeh [11:34:42] [1/3] What happened with the idea of WikiForge? [11:34:42] [2/3] Why it went down? Is the first news i have of that. [11:34:43] [3/3] Why wasn't an announcement to the discord community about cancelling Wikiforge? [11:37:57] WikiForge plan never reached any agreement [11:38:04] Then it's founder left Miraheze [11:38:36] I didn't know that. But thanks for explaining. I thought Cosmic Alpha was still on Miraheze [11:40:35] [1/2] When we have to brainstorm and think about solutions and directions to take we have a huge backload of information we need to learn before making an informed opinion. [11:40:36] [2/2] If we were informed periodically, the backlog of info could be smaller [11:42:14] Yeh that server should be replaced with a dell server and a better cpu (thatā€™s why the other mw donā€™t have such a problem) [11:42:38] [1/2] hey I just saw the anouncement about needing help adding anding modding pages for the wiki [11:42:38] [2/2] Id love to be able to help and I have pior expirence (if youd consider it) [11:42:49] Ideally we need like 10 servers. A lot of capacity [11:49:40] I'm trying to read all the chat to try and learn about this situation, but is a lot of chat. I will continue later [12:19:12] Over 1000 unread messages since I slept <:EpicFaceMH:912930767972225095> [12:43:21] Has there been any good news? [12:44:41] @Juwi well we had a lot to say [12:46:04] Any new volunteers [12:51:11] No [12:51:43] Hopefully that number will ijncrease. [13:03:22] Your first priority should not be getting volunteers [13:09:58] So we shouldnt worry now? [13:34:03] [1/5] Having caught up with all that took place on the previous ~15 hours, I would like to say that I appreciate this recruitment drive even if it does not come to fruition. Honestly, I went to sleep last night with the fear that all the effort put into improving Miraheze by so many of us over the years is going to be nearly worthless (I like to believe that many users will be able to [13:34:04] [2/5] look back at their time here with a positive feeling even if Miraheze itself ceases to exist) soon. While that still looks like a very distinct possibility, there is nothing stopping us from hoping for a positive future if people are serious about joining SRE. [13:34:04] [3/5] If I may add my 2 cents on this matter, I will advise against moving the different SRE roles in the MW team back to a single role though (cc @zppix) as at least one potential Software Engineer (other than me) has said that she will not join if an NDA is required. I myself never applied for the Security Engineer role after it replaced the Security Reviewer role for this exact rea [13:34:04] [4/5] son. [13:34:05] [5/5] Anyhow, I will try to help in any way I can from the outside. If MH survives and the SE (both Software and Security) roles are isolated from SRE then I may also consider applying but that of course requires a good numbers of stars to align, unfortunately. Thank you all for the memories made and the wonderful service provided over the years. ā¤ļø [13:38:42] [1/2] So one idea that has been brought to me and one that Iā€™d be willing to entertain depending on how things go, would be to remerge the infra and mw teams and then have it be a question of what do you know how to do, however anyone with Shell access would need an NDA thatā€™s a requirement anywhere within the industry. However, a security and software engineer [13:38:42] [2/2] doesnt need shell access persay, but that could get interesting [13:43:40] @zppix I disagree that a security engineer wouldn't need an NDA [13:43:54] If they have access to private phab tasks routinely, they need an NDA [13:44:14] which if they are doing good, I'd say they would be doing [13:45:10] If they are viewing phab tasks then yes they would need an NDA because they would also need shell access at that point [13:45:28] You don't need shell to do security reviewing [13:45:41] You definitely need private phab [13:45:58] No but at that point they would be acting as a security for the project as well [13:46:39] I think we need to make a distinction between SEs here; if you have access to security-related private tasks then you must sign an NDA but if you are reviewing outside code for use on MH then it should not be necessary as that is all public info anyway. [13:47:18] Yes agreeed [13:47:31] For security reviews? [13:47:32] That would be the plan [13:48:00] If you are just reviewing extensions, that's public info. That's an extension reviewer. [13:48:25] If you're going to be a security engineer, you need an NDA. A security engineer does a lot more than check extensions are safe. [13:48:36] Yeah, but that is the responsibility of the Security Engineer right now. [13:48:55] That's why I am proposing splitting the two. [13:49:07] Yes we should split it [13:49:20] Which is exactly what I plan to do [13:49:21] The WMFs security checks are semi automated checklists now [13:49:38] You need PHP knowledge and a security mindset but it's nothing private [13:51:01] Who is the other party to the NDA, Miraheze Limited? [13:51:12] Yes [13:51:31] Are there people who are afraid of signing one of those for PII reasons or something? [13:51:44] I would assume so [13:51:46] Yeh whatā€™s there to be afraid of [13:51:57] Iā€™ve given Owen my nda and it has my address [13:52:04] I wouldnā€™t give it to untrustworthy people [13:52:11] He also has my real name [13:52:12] Like, are there people who would otherwise be contributing, but refusal to sign an NDA is an active obstacle? [13:52:16] Some people don't want to share their real name and address [13:52:22] Yes we've had people refuse [13:52:24] Do these people actually exist, is my question [13:52:25] okay [13:52:27] Yes [13:53:08] I guess I'm just not used to that being such a hindrance [13:53:30] We have nearly every runescape wiki admin sign an nda and nobody has ever had an issue with it [13:53:50] I mean handing your info over to some random person you've never met online is not exactly the safest thing to do [13:54:05] Maybe people would be more willing to do so if they had trust in the institution [13:54:11] Well you have to remember the average age on Miraheze is quite young [13:54:16] I would be comfortable sharing my name but my address is a no-go. [13:54:25] @cookmeplox: you should not be collecting PII from Miraheze users unless there's very clear messaging about the privacy policy & who is the controller. [13:54:44] You don't actually need an address for an NDA to be enforceable [13:54:52] I'm confused why you sent this message [13:55:00] But MH requires it. [13:55:07] so...change it? [13:55:10] In response to https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1006789349498699827/1119263488792076398 [13:55:23] You can't do much with only a name if something goes wrong [13:55:37] How are you going to enforce it if you have no idea who they are [13:55:43] This was proposed a few days ago but vehemently opposed to by Owen. [13:55:55] I think you guys should challenge a lot more of your assumptions [13:56:17] Including, perhaps, the assumption that you need an NDA for private security phab tasks [13:56:29] You definitely do [13:56:33] It's a paper tiger. It's never going to be enforced. You guys don't have the money to litigate it [13:56:52] Yes some of it is looking good to regulators [13:57:26] Private phab tasks can have a lot of information in if abuse is discussed, they can also discuss ways you could easily hack the farm [13:57:28] Which is why Iā€™ve suggested reincorporating in the US [13:57:38] No more archaic regulations [13:57:55] Okay, how does an NDA actually prevent any of those? [13:57:59] the answer is it doesn't [13:58:06] @zppix yes the US are one of the most lax countries in the world for data protection law [13:58:29] People are much less likely to do something stupid when their real name and address is attached to it [13:58:41] That is extremely dubious [13:59:21] No it's not, it's basic psychology [13:59:30] What Iā€™ve seeing here is that NDAs need to change [13:59:38] If I sign an NDA with you guys, I know I can break it because I know you have no money [14:00:09] That's the end of the conversation. It's not enforceable because you don't have the means to enforce it [14:00:18] So all it's really doing is preventing well-meaning contributors [14:00:18] Doesn't mean a regulator or other authority can't enforce it [14:00:25] Civil enforcement would be hard [14:00:38] But it establishes you knew you shouldn't have being doing something [14:00:40] You are not going to get a regulator to enforce that... [14:00:48] Sorry that's just total nonsense [14:01:14] If you misused access and leaked information, that can be a criminal matter [14:01:33] It remains a criminal matter regardless of whether you've signed an NDA [14:01:53] Yes but it establishes you were aware of it not being allowed better [14:02:10] Also means we know who you are so it's easier to pass the information on [14:02:31] Although I will say Notts Police didn't take much interest in any of the DDoS attacks [14:03:10] well, yeah, everyone will always have better things to do [14:03:23] Nobody is going to enforce your NDA, including you [14:03:48] And if for some reason it rises to the level that would actually be prosecuted, they can just identify you through many other reliable means [14:07:02] I do agree that you have far too many teams and structures for the size of the group that is actually contributing [14:12:45] If there are genuinely good reasons for different levels of access control (shell access, user PII where there are compliance/data-controller concerns) then you can just give individual people some elevated permissions. but the whole concept of separate sub-teams, for such a small organization, is harmful imo [14:13:10] open source IT has a really strong network effect. you lose out a lot by segregating the groups [14:13:21] and you also confuse people who might plausibly want to contribute [14:15:23] I agree [14:17:17] the only good thing about MH getting this close to collapse is that it means you have a lot of political freedom to rip out the things that are not working [14:17:44] Because the alternative is that the whole thing dies [14:18:19] [1/2] so [14:18:19] [2/2] most likely, everything's going down and my wiki needs to find another host? [14:18:33] Not quite yet [14:18:48] But you should get backups ready [14:19:33] Right, I saw the timeline posted. [14:19:50] Which makes it seem like we kinda' boned [14:20:15] Well its possible things can be salvaged [14:21:02] In my experience with small projects like this, if the lead devs get burnout, it's ogre [14:27:42] Whelp, if this is going down, anyone have suggestions for another wiki like this one? [14:27:51] Pref one that's vandalism proof [14:29:05] I'd like to help Miraheze. What can I do? [14:29:18] I wouldnt say for sure its going down quite yet [14:29:43] We need SRE members for sure [14:30:37] [1/2] I've never seen a community put out a 'hey we're closing' announcement that includes a staff of 3 with burnout come back from this. [14:30:37] [2/2] Don't get me wrong, I really like this platform, and I think it's great. But I don't want the people I'm supporting to be SoL if it goes down, you know? [14:31:11] Could you explain what is a SRE? Thx [14:31:20] System administrator [14:32:00] So if you look back in this channel you will see myself and labster are meeting with the board at some point to discuss the future of miraheze and potential plans [14:33:58] I have. I regularly read everything on here (that isn't raw data feeds) so I think I have a fairly good idea of what's going on and where we're at. [14:36:30] [1/2] What does a system administrator do? [14:36:30] [2/2] I have experience in Linux, and basic knowledge on C++, Python and Rust, as well as MediaWiki syntax. Others - I can learn [14:37:11] Its a decent amount of PHP, experience with backend of mediawiki, and such [14:37:15] And sql [14:44:42] Ah [14:48:39] [1/2] That's a goo idea šŸ‘ [14:48:39] [2/2] I think we are taking steps in the right direction. [14:55:54] Of course everything I have planned is all hypothetical right now, but if things go the way Iā€™m hoping, it will happen [14:57:38] All Iā€™m asking is that the community donā€™t lose complete hope and give us a chance to make things right [14:58:00] I think I can learn them [14:59:23] I understand the hesitation and the skepticism, but I do ask that everyone do give it a good chance, and that we go into this with an open mindset, things dont change overnight and there is a lot of moving parts in things like this [15:01:16] I personally have a huge time investment in this project, Iā€™ve put 6 years into Miraheze, and so I personally will do anything I can to try turn this around to the best of my abilities, but this can only work if the community can go into this with open minds [15:01:48] [1/2] Zppix, community could be keeping hope if Miraheze staff made a better announcement than the "we are closing 31st august". [15:01:48] [2/2] There are better ways to say the same message. [15:03:06] I agree it could of been handled better, but I also understand that they rather be upfront and give the community the worse case scenario, that way we arent telling people last minute either [15:03:44] And Void is a Board member so he knows better, i don't want to teach lessons. So i apologize beforehand if i sound like i am telling easy solutions or blaming someone. [15:04:14] No what you are stating isnt far fetched and you definitely have a very solid reasoning to feel the way you do [15:06:46] Its perfectly reasonable to have the opinion that you do, because your opinion is based on facts and what you have been told, I rather deal with someone that can share their opinion of the situation and the same time, you have also shown that you willing to see the other side of things as well [15:16:09] I realize this channel is focused primarily on recruiting volunteers to run the tech side of Miraheze, but should new management be formed, I think it would be good for 1-2 specific peopleā€”with a personality fit for the roleā€”to be in charge of PR, and they are the only ones who post on social media & #announcements [15:22:31] [1/3] I think having one people in charge of announcements could be a good idea. [15:22:31] [2/3] But on the other side, Void (user) is currently a Board member and being a kind of director of the project. [15:22:32] [3/3] And i think Board members have the rights to put announcements, and now some people are thinking on leaving Miraheze instead of thinking how we can fix this situation [15:23:53] I heard about this news from discord, but I don't know how long it's been talking about this on the Miraheze Meta wiki. [15:25:49] At least on the 'need volunteers' side; notices have been available on Meta for years [15:26:39] Yes. The need volunteers is a thing. The "5 people leaving" at the same time is other, and the structural issues that we need to deal with are other thing. [15:27:51] [1/2] What i was saying above is that there is a lot to unpack here. [15:27:51] [2/2] I agree with you that this is not something new. But other times we dealt with people resigning when they resigning one at a time. [15:27:58] Have we made any progress since I last looked in..? [15:28:09] [1/2] I have seen some of the volunteers who are leaving raise some concerns previously about structure but there appeared to lack community will to change policies to ease some of those concerns. [15:28:10] [2/2] Disclaimer: I'm certainly not entirely informed as to how those concerns were approached internally or externally. [15:28:38] I believe the current status is "waiting for a meeting to be scheduled and announced to discuss next steps with the Board and those looking to revive/sustain Miraheze" [15:29:10] I see [15:40:27] [1/6] There seems to have been a lot of opinions and discussions so it's getting a bit confusing to make sense of everything. What I'd suggest maybe is to separate different areas somehow so that we don't confuse/lose track of things. It would be best to have a set Miraheze Meeting where they could all be discussed separately. For example it would be divided as: [15:40:27] [2/6] * Discussions about the Board and company status [15:40:28] [3/6] * Discussions about technical volunteers [15:40:28] [4/6] * Discussions about the financial model / volunteer model [15:40:28] [5/6]  Discussions about technical infrastructure [15:40:29] [6/6] * Discussions about the community and the community's role [15:41:14] Also just as a comment regarding US laws, I'd just make a reminder that US companies which provide services to people in the EU and UK do still have to follow the GDPR so that isn't a way to 'escape' it [15:42:11] points to bring up with your solicitor tbf [15:42:37] We are still at this point waiting to schedule a meeting with me labster and the board [15:43:24] I think it would be useful to have one with the community before so you can gather ideas to present [15:43:38] Like have a list of suggestions from the community [15:44:07] Why can't it be an open meeting? [15:44:33] Open = everyone can participate so long as they are not just adding pointless doomsday talk [15:44:52] Because that's not what the company needs rn tbh [15:45:08] That can be achieved with a reasonable moderation team able to enforce 'keeping the conversation on topic' [15:47:27] I think the meeting should finish with an actual plan (substance) [15:48:27] Hi, just joined, I saw Miraheze wasn't doing too well and I was wondering what I could do to help [15:48:42] My irl job is mostly AI research so not sure it would be very helpful but maybe? [15:49:26] Oh hey <:blobhighfive:614485855377031168> my irl job is in AI research too! [15:50:02] I didn't say it would be closed, I just think an organized one is what we need [15:50:35] Yay! I'm working at ENS in Paris ^^ [15:50:45] need a meeting to decide on the meeting to have [15:58:35] Too.. burocratic [16:37:21] Yes, this. [17:27:31] not to break the main convo but it seems like dump feature acts wonky w/ both image and xml dumps [17:27:53] several messages on that today [17:28:15] To provide my two sense on this whole thing about the company, I feel it's got the drive to fix it, but a lot of conflicting ideas on how to fix it [17:28:51] I think right now what we need is, yes, a lot of applicants for moderation related roles, but we also need to just see a complete reorganization of the administrative structure [17:29:11] Seems uo has accused me and others of defamation and harassment and demanded we be expelled so with that in mind, Iā€™m resigning immediately [17:29:22] huh? [17:29:28] *miraheze [17:29:41] Iā€™ve just been told by another member of the team [17:29:48] what [17:30:26] Take it up with wikitide. Seems miraheze may Not Even manage Itā€™s Wind down [17:30:46] Why WikiTide when no one in official capacity has done anything? [17:30:53] You aren't making any sense [17:31:05] What do you mean I am not making any sense [17:31:27] I don't get what you are talking about [17:31:40] In simple turns UO (Cosmic) has told who ever that me and others have made defamation claims and harassment and has asked that we be expelled from miraheze [17:32:18] You've been harassing people [17:32:24] šŸ¤” [17:32:32] No, he claims I have [17:32:58] I am done tbh [17:33:15] man [17:33:24] is he a member of the board? [17:33:27] No, right? [17:33:33] No he resigned from the board a bit ago [17:33:41] then he can't force you to quit [17:33:42] right? [17:33:48] Then why does his threats matter? [17:34:21] right?? [17:34:59] Threats of legal action are not taken lightly. [17:35:13] Yeh Iā€™m not going to court over this tbh [17:35:29] ._. [17:35:31] I doubt he is going to go to court over it either [17:35:34] I donā€™t have the funds to do that [17:36:12] If you want to resign because of burnout, lack of faith in the project, or anything, then that makes sense. However, someone not involved in the project any more should not have any bearing on your ability to remain involved. [17:36:49] Im not going to risk it tbh. [17:38:01] okay, again, it's not a risk unless he has explicitly threatened to sue you personally [17:38:20] He has threatened [17:38:25] Per @owenrb [17:39:25] Owen, please explain, because it doesn't make sense for the board to let this happen [17:49:38] @paladox the ever changing dog avatars are the highlight of my week [17:52:37] @agentisai So what's gonna be done to save Miraheze [17:52:47] because rn it needs like, complete reform administratively [17:53:17] Board will need new appointments and some have offered their help, as seen in the history of this channel [17:53:32] It needs more than a new board [17:53:39] it needs to be oerhauled [17:53:45] We'll make sure to follow up on people who offered their technical help as a big issue is the lack of technical contributors [17:56:57] What is needed is to fix the whole structure [17:57:07] That's the biggest priority [17:57:26] We can't reform anything if we don't have a solid Board to back it up [17:57:28] If you don't have a management system moderators and people to manage the software and shit won't mean anything [17:57:45] Exactly, there needs to be a strong management system [17:57:46] Management system how? [17:57:49] What do you propose? [17:57:59] You need to have a strong stable system [17:58:11] That won't repeat what's been happening in thr past few days [17:58:36] It's easy to say that but hard to envision how that can be done [17:58:52] You need to reform the system, honestly, to prevent the board from unilaterally dissolving Miraheze [17:59:35] Again, easy to say, hard to do [17:59:49] Then the current system needs to be reconstituted [17:59:54] So that changes can be made [17:59:58] again, how? [18:00:05] I appreciate the general statements but we need concrete ideas [18:00:27] I'd need to know the full extent of how fucked Miraheze is administratively first [18:00:56] Currently the position seems to be without a representative in the UK there are immediate legal and financial issues due to the company being registered in the UK [18:01:23] Correct [18:01:25] Maybe the company needs to be moved to the US? An idea I saw floated around here earlier [18:01:34] Well in terms of SRE we had 7 members in March and now there's 2. In terms of Board we had 3 in March now 2 and one wanting to resign quickly. [18:01:42] Impossible in a short timeframe [18:02:03] Yes unfortunately that is not something that is been prepared to even begin doing yet, this is a hugely unexpected timeline change [18:02:11] Then SRE needs 5 new members at the least while the Board needs 2 more at the least [18:02:21] There is also question of assets, which need to be moved appropriately, and that will also complicate things a lot. [18:02:29] yeah right now the board is more of the focus [18:02:31] Plus iirc Owen needs to transfer the financing stuff out [18:02:32] Unless you somehow find entirely new servers for Miraheze in the US [18:02:35] but tbh SRE needs way more than that to be viable long term [18:02:47] Hence "at the least" [18:02:48] The only thing thats immediately of concern is the board [18:02:54] Yes [18:03:08] Literally anything else can wait [18:03:12] And, it's been said, but I don't think 90% of the people in this server or desiring to save Miraheze are qualified [18:03:31] The board needs to be made up of veteran qualified and trustworthy users and administrators of Miraheze [18:03:46] The issue is that we specifically need a uk based member [18:04:40] I think ideally that would also fix with the Board [18:05:09] Would there not be anyone atm? [18:05:10] If Owen can stay on long enough to tranfer assets to a US-based nonprofits, then we won't have as many issues [18:05:15] [1/2] by Lcawte: [18:05:15] [2/2] > There isn't a requirement to have a UK based director, but, you do need a UK address to take in your post. [18:05:29] We do need uk based director our bank requires it [18:05:45] hence why I suggest switching assets to the US [18:05:54] Huh. Okay. [18:05:55] ugh it's going to be expensive tho [18:06:02] We have nothing in the us thats the issue, its not a light switch [18:06:34] wait, there is this European ISP guy [18:06:39] in this channel [18:06:46] I know, but it's the only path forward that's realistic. [18:06:46] Owen should just tell that idiot to get stuffed with their demand to essentially kill the company [18:07:08] I'm willing to help finance the switch [18:07:09] @thelevking please avoid comments like that [18:07:16] No one is getting stuffed [18:07:44] I'm sorry, but it does look like a demand to kill the company if you say that the only UK-based member of the board should immediately resign [18:08:02] I get that this is some highly personal drama, but it just looks so fucking shitty from the outside [18:08:10] it is, but we can't deal with that guy right now. Being mad doesn't solve the situation [18:08:45] What about Void? [18:09:02] Not UK-based. Not an option. [18:09:21] Could there be someone who serves as an interim head? [18:09:26] And apart from "get a new UK-based member to the board", there isn't much options in such a short time anyway. [18:09:27] As much as I would love to pick void up and move em to the uk thats not realistic [18:09:28] create a company for a buy out? [18:09:32] not the issue [18:09:34] to make a transition to a US based enterprise? [18:09:48] In 24 hours? Not possible [18:10:03] actually... it could be [18:10:08] seems fishy tho [18:10:12] No it literally canā€™t [18:10:40] you can create an LLC, bank account, and get an EIN in that time [18:10:40] why it has to 24 hours fuck [18:10:41] The amount of filing alone would take more than 24 hours [18:10:41] that sounds illegal [18:10:49] a company can't be created in a few hours [18:10:56] it literally can [18:10:57] and people forget it's the weekend tomorrow [18:11:11] if @orduin oid did it literally right now [18:11:16] it could happen [18:11:21] I'm not aware of companies being created instantly and definitely not outside of business days [18:11:41] Void is burned out [18:11:42] it's buisness day for the next 2 hours on the east coast [18:11:45] I don't care how but make CA takes his threats back to AT LEAST let Owen to finish things, holy fuck [18:12:52] I have experience forming campaign committees for elections. Yes, the process to do everything is more or less instant if you know what you are doing. The problem is you need someone trusted to do it. [18:12:55] Most filings take a business day or more to process [18:13:31] I would say a campaign committee is less complex than a whole ass company tho [18:13:37] ^ [18:13:42] Different processes [18:13:49] it's actually more complicated because you have to file with more regulators [18:13:54] Thereā€™s plenty of UK based Miraheze community members, but that issue of trust and reputation certainly still exists. Especially in this collective case with legal scare tactics being thrown around [18:13:57] in the US? [18:14:02] yes [18:14:07] because Miraheze is based in the UK [18:14:11] and laws are different [18:14:15] it still only takes a day [18:14:25] campaigns are definitely not "easy" as there's all kinds of laws toprevent fraud and corruption [18:14:26] creating a company solely to buy out another seems illegal in both the US and UK [18:14:32] I know that. I'm talking about creating a temporary LLC in the US [18:14:42] it happens literally all the time [18:14:45] Its not possible within the timeframe [18:14:52] The timeframe is the issue, not the action [18:14:57] I think the only viable path at such a short frame is to get an interim board that has a member in the UK. [18:15:00] both seem hard to work with [18:15:01] EIN number, LLC creation, and bank account all take a few hours [18:15:07] ^ [18:15:13] Its not as simple as creating something we need bank accounts, ect those take time [18:15:18] Since it's a weekend [18:15:22] you could do it, but no one believes me so we'll miss the window. [18:15:25] Miraheze won't collapse for 2 days at least [18:15:31] absolutely is the way to go [18:15:34] Opening a brand new business bank account alone takes more than a couple hours [18:15:35] yeah and banks are quite reluctant to let companies like ours be their customers [18:15:50] maybe in the US they wouldn't but in the UK it was difficult [18:15:51] Right now, Owen needs to get that bank account out and shit [18:16:01] not really if you go in person [18:16:03] and then an interim board needs to be appointed with a UK based member [18:16:18] campaign committees use business bank accounts, like I said. [18:16:28] But you also need to find that UK-based member in the first place [18:16:31] it's not as difficult as you all imagine it to be [18:16:43] I believe MJL [18:16:44] So that should be where the efforts go [18:16:56] but this entire shit will be put on hold w/ weekend [18:17:04] It is Iā€™ve done it [18:17:26] Frankly I admire the resolve that everyone involved in this conversation has, but quite frankly I would say Miraheze is probably done. If the Chairman of the Board (and the holder of all our accounts) resigns, it's over. [18:17:27] In Connecticut (where I live), the process is simple. I don't know where you live, so I can't compare states. [18:17:59] I think he's trying to move the accounts [18:18:02] but I have no fuckin idea [18:18:14] Federally you are still having to wait on the IRS for ein and such which alone can take a business day, those arent done instantly [18:18:14] move them where? [18:18:16] to the US? [18:18:18] He's not really communicating it seems [18:18:25] out of his hands [18:18:30] If you don't mind me asking, was it also easy to open a bank account? As I said in the UK I remember it being hard for Miraheze to find someone who wanted us as a client [18:18:30] so it doesn't just die with him leaving [18:18:49] Yes they totally are done instantly. If you apply online, I swear it's done within minutes nowadays. [18:18:53] Who appoints the board btw [18:18:59] Ok guys [18:19:02] for Miraheze? [18:19:04] see [[Board]] [18:19:06] I think we need to stop and slowdown for a sec [18:19:14] [18:19:23] and just like, make sure the infrastructure survives Owen [18:19:28] Yes, literally any dummy can open a bank account for a corporation or nonprofit. The banker walks you through most of it. [18:19:51] (in the US/with specific banks obviously, ymmv) [18:20:17] guess they're moer lax than in the UK and EU then [18:20:18] Ok so atm [18:20:26] it seems like 3 seats of the board can be filled outright [18:20:27] Yes, this is a well known fact [18:20:41] US has super lax laws for this kind of thing [18:21:14] by who [18:21:28] > 3 community seats which are appointments made after nominations from the Miraheze community. See Community Directors for more information. [18:21:53] Elections would have to be held [18:21:56] yes [18:22:01] And frankly I can't see 3 people that want to run [18:22:03] but an interim board could be appointed no? [18:22:10] consisting of who? [18:22:13] no one wants to do it [18:22:19] whoever it takes [18:22:22] it's temporary [18:22:28] until real elections could be held [18:22:40] We're going in circles on the idea of what needs to be done without a concrete suggestion of how to implement the idea. [18:22:51] We could throw the entire channel thats here right now on the board, unless its someone uk based it wont fix our immediate issue [18:22:55] [1/2] > 5 appointed seats which are appointments made by the existing Board to people whom they decide add value to the organisation and direction of the company. These seats traditionally will go to people unconnected to the project and act as external seats. [18:22:55] [2/2] Arguably this is more important, and I assume would need to be appointed by the Head of the Company/Board? [18:23:24] My point is that no one wants to do it [18:23:31] Because PII is plastered everywhere [18:23:36] Then people must be found [18:23:44] at least for an interim [18:24:02] Well, I'm officially declaring the window to open up an emergency US bank account closed for the next 4 days since I have to go to work now. Juneteeth is a federal holiday (therefore banks closed on Monday), so y'all are boned if Owen doesn't stay on for at least that amount of time. [18:24:03] the rules don't matter as much, imo, when the building itself is on the brink of collapse [18:24:13] Well I won't be involved period [18:24:31] Telepedia was able to do it easily? [18:24:32] I'll freaking do it if I thought it'd actually save MH from closing. [18:24:44] Like [18:24:51] atm we need just one guy on the board [18:24:54] s an interim [18:24:55] it seems [18:24:56] Oh shit [18:25:01] I forgot about Juneteenth [18:25:05] common, it's 2023, bot 2015 [18:25:06] that's the price of doing business unfortunately. [18:25:13] > 5 appointed seats which are appointments made by the existing Board to people whom they decide add value to the organisation and direction of the company. [18:25:38] hmm? [18:25:46] Fair but as a result no one wants to do it [18:25:59] in the US I think the board could be anonymous [18:26:02] this means that, to reconstitute the board it just needs one member [18:26:03] as a basis [18:26:23] who can then appoint the five other seats [18:26:23] no, Talthiel, as explained a million times we need a UK-based member [18:26:24] yeah I've understood that in the US you don't have to make director names public [18:26:32] yes, one UK based member [18:26:33] for the bank account [18:26:51] Please see #general, Owen will propose to transfer assets to Void [18:26:55] and one UK address for the board. [18:26:55] so I trust that he's found a solution for that [18:27:02] really? [18:27:14] I've pinned the message [18:27:44] This would be nice [18:27:44] So who's gonna manage the bank account? [18:27:56] It would be @orduin if he accepts [18:28:08] is Void around right now [18:28:09] if neither Void, Zppix, or Labster aren't British? [18:28:36] Then we just hit the same problem for what I said [18:28:41] none of those three are British right? [18:28:53] yes but if Owen said that he must know what he's doing [18:29:06] He wouldn't have said that if it wouldn't be possible, he has experience in company matters [18:29:18] Get him here quick then [18:29:31] and ask [18:30:02] don't rush [18:30:14] it's been readily established that you need to be in the UK to run the account [18:30:31] I don't think it's working to chat both here and in #general [18:30:39] I would advise general [18:30:41] I'd suggest sticking to #general as the questions are being addressed htere [18:30:48] This channel was always meant as a volunteering hub [18:30:51] not anything more [18:32:03] Since #general is discussing different topic: how fast are the dumps created right now? [18:32:27] as fast as MacFan4000 can do [18:32:32] It won't be fast I'm afraid [18:32:44] since only one person is left to do them pretty much [18:32:45] I meant ones created through Special:DataDump fyi [18:32:51] and because there are so many requests it will take awhile to get to all of them [18:33:22] @Site Reliability Engineers given this emergency situation, would it help to give @reception123 temporary access back to manage dumps [18:33:30] I think he's already stated he's interested [18:33:50] timing for those would vary based on the size of the wiki, and how many dumps are in the queue to be generated [18:33:53] I'm a bit confused about what has to be 'got to', aren't XMLs generating via DataDump? [18:34:09] and I thought for images it just needed a steward to click or something? Or did I miss that? [18:34:36] for image dumps we have to click a button [18:35:15] I also have to keep an eye on mwtask141 disk space, and also manually handle dumps larger then 5GB [18:35:37] temporary restoration of access at this point is up to @orduin [18:36:18] If anyone trusted makes an access request for this purpose, I believe I can accept it [18:38:01] for the record Agent still has access and has said that they will process dump requests as well [18:39:22] Doesn't seem like it, been a while like this for me now for these, through multiple refreshes of the page as well [18:40:00] Only one to two data dump jobs can run concurrently [18:40:50] ^ with many people creating dumps, generation will take awhile [18:43:55] Not to be annoying but is the queue basically the whole wiki farm atm? [18:44:24] Fair enough, if it is just a matter of waiting, and it isn't actually broken [18:44:32] several users reported already [18:44:47] sigh [18:45:05] @bwm0 would you be able to find how many people have expressed interest in doing any of the listed roles? [18:45:45] on-wiki, not a lot [18:46:12] overall I mean [18:46:22] in the wiki and, before it was moved there, in #tech-community [18:46:27] zppix and jessica are interested in SRE [18:46:34] Amanda still has a request for SWE [18:47:26] Because I've got some like, general ideas about things. [18:47:27] As Agent mentioned on Amanda's request, it would be useful if she showed some contributions to prove her knowledge [18:47:38] What's the current administrative structure of Miraheze? [18:47:42] unfortunately even in dire situations Miraheze can't just accept anyone to have full access to servers [18:47:51] She also doesn't feel comfortable signing an NDA [18:48:02] welp that's a problem then [18:48:09] [1/3] 1. The Board-director [18:48:09] [2/3] 2. The Board [18:48:09] [3/3] what else??? [18:49:17] see [[Talk:Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] [18:49:17] [18:49:22] but at the moment it doesn't even matter [18:49:53] Orange_Star: I have no problems with you being an MWE again, but you can provide assurances that what happened last time won't happen again, right? [18:50:10] The part where you got into an argument with Naleksuh and out of spite of that, resigned in a fiery manner. [18:50:30] What's the hierarchy and structure? [18:50:33] beyond that [18:50:37] Seems premature to discuss that [18:50:43] (to Brandon) [18:51:00] [[Organisation]] [18:51:01] [18:51:15] to discuss what [18:51:18] MWE appointments? [18:51:26] there isn't much else to discuss tbh [18:52:00] the hierarchy described there isn't functional at the moment though [18:52:11] Hierarchy is suspended [18:52:22] there's no-one to appoint me for now, so who cares? [18:52:35] I think once things get back on track there needs to be structural reorganization [18:52:40] I think what's best now that Owen and Void are talking is to let them discuss and make an announcement after they conclude their talks. [18:52:46] if [18:52:47] but that can and should be left for after the board can be reconstituted [18:59:24] dumps are currently help up as there is an image dump currently running on a wiki with over 40,000 images [18:59:34] held* [18:59:47] damn [19:00:09] Well thats quite a number [19:00:21] šŸ˜® [19:00:59] https://www.sidem.wiki/wiki/Special:Statistics [19:01:04] 43661 to be exact [19:01:31] Is there enough space for that dump to be generated? [19:01:43] Void asking my immediate next thought [19:01:58] mwtask has plenty of space currently [19:02:12] currently the uncompressed dump is a little over 2G [19:02:44] seems they had an XML dump that was fine despite there being 40000+ pages as well [19:04:07] well xml are afterall only text (even if formatted in a particular way to be computer readable), and it does take a LOT LOT LOT of text to reach any sizable size, But yeah that at least explains why dumps seems to "not work", so thanks for the info šŸ™‚ [19:06:11] Is there an estimate of how much more time would that take? [19:06:55] Since 16:07 (when dump generation started for that wiki) was 3 hours ago [19:07:47] they should have use python script šŸ™ƒ [19:08:09] only 1-2 dumps generate a time, and right now a dump is being generated for a pretty big wiki, so it unfortunately will take a while [19:09:48] I think they were asking if there were an estimate for how long that big dump would take specifically, to get an idea of a timeframe for when other queued up dumps would start being processed [19:11:02] i don't have an estimate for that, hard to know how long it might take [19:11:07] it's hard to tell [19:11:16] at the very least I'd imagine an hour [19:20:16] I've actually got one administrative suggestion for the future [19:20:28] which is concrete [19:20:54] The wiki currently lists Owen as Chair, Secretary, and Treasurer. Maybe having all positions centralized under one person isn't such a good idea [19:21:30] MH learned that lesson at least 2 times while I was more active [19:21:58] Unfortunetaly there was not enough people, so this is as best as it gets [19:22:10] hence it would be left for a future date [19:22:26] it's not by choice [19:22:30] it's because there's not enough people [19:22:32] I don't think Miraheze wanted that option; but yeah you need people on the board to spread out the jobs [19:22:35] SPF used to be Chair but he left [19:22:40] Well yes, weā€™ve been trying to get people to join the board [19:22:46] people having multiple roles isn't by choice, it's because there's not enough people [19:22:52] No one seemed to want to or cared [19:22:57] I think that there should be two things actually [19:23:06] I think one reason is because people didn't want their personal info made public [19:23:10] and there are good reasons for that... [19:23:37] Split the Treasurer and Secretary off of the board and have both be appointed by the board but not part of the board [19:24:25] ... So the person would do the work of the position without any real recognition of the responsibility that entails? [19:25:06] No, to prevent the Board from dissolving itself and, by extension, fucking up the finances [19:25:29] This does not matter if there are not enough people to join the board [19:25:35] ^ [19:25:44] <.labster#0000> Good morning, folks [19:25:53] Hence why I prefaced this all with "for a future date" [19:25:59] Morning [19:26:09] What matters in the here and now is keeping the company afloat [19:26:10] Even ignoring the lack of people, the Board could always still pass a motion to close the company. Regardless of it finances are delegates to a different person [19:26:25] That's part of the responsibility of running the company, deciding if operations need to shut down [19:26:30] Should've prefaced it with "and entirely different material circumstances". I doubt anyone wanted to unite those positions in one person [19:26:33] Maybe just keep it in your back pocket next time before saying anything now... when we're dealing with something else. [19:26:56] It seems there's not much we can do beyond speculation [19:27:15] Speculation at this point is likely not productive. [19:27:20] Not until Owen finalizes the transition out of his leadership [19:27:26] There is, but you aren't doing it. It's called waiting. [19:27:26] mjl1: +1, yeah currently we're trying to not disappear [19:28:07] What I say or do has no weight to it [19:28:15] <.labster#0000> One thing not suggested is that things can transfer to an existing nonprofit in the US, which could be spun off later. [19:29:03] It does. It can waste people's time. Never forget you have a responsibility not to derail a conversation. [19:29:05] But what existing nonprofit? [19:29:08] does anyone have a non-profit we can borrow [19:30:18] This was basically my idea except with an LLC [19:30:49] But that window is closed now [19:30:53] <.labster#0000> I'm not sure yet right now. I have a few things in my head, and I'd have to call in favors. But it's possible. [19:32:09] By all means, if you have a trustworthy group, then we should be looking into that [19:33:27] It'll mean sacrificing our independence, but it'd probably be worth it long term if goals can be aligned. [19:34:01] <.labster#0000> Not really. You make a temporary contract with the group, that the board would be willing to accept on short notice. [19:36:44] <.labster#0000> Man, I'm reminded of how I left Miraheze. I was burnt out, and suddenly there was this guy who wanted to sue me. And I literally couldn't do anything about the problem he had. So I just left as fast as possible. [19:37:53] I remember that yeah. I believe I deleted that article that the guy complained about [19:37:59] So are you seriously saying that if i spin up 40 ish servers this second and make 40 TB storage available with 10 Gb uplinks that it won't matter? [19:38:11] but yes volunteer bournout is a huge issue [19:38:24] so Miraheze needs better methods to protect its staff from SLAPP suits [19:38:32] <.labster#0000> The guy was in Spain IIRC [19:38:37] Yep [19:38:45] the concept is still the same [19:38:46] and he had a lawyer too I believe [19:38:54] well without funds that's not really possible [19:38:59] That issue is no longer relevant, we are now back on track [19:39:38] <.labster#0000> @seneram I would love to talk to you about servers later. Right now we need to solve our organizational issues. [19:40:21] Yeah. Tech volunteers and servers are a huge issue and part of the problem but there's a "hierarchy of priorities" and they're not it right now I'm afraid [19:40:25] first a structure needs to be figured out [19:40:44] I have extended the offer to sit on the MH board as a UK member to assist with either saving the platform or helping with winding down, but it looks more likely Miraheze will be reincorporated in the US. [19:41:04] I think that's more realistic given that most volunteers who are still around are based there [19:41:18] but thanks for your offer [19:41:45] <.labster#0000> Has Owen actually quit right now? [19:41:56] Not yet [19:43:18] [1/2] So what Iā€™m thinking organizational wise, is an airgapped system, we would have atleast 3 board members, chairman, secretary, and a technical director, the technical director would work with an advisor within the sre team and they would effectively be how sre is ran, however only the technical director would be a board member, and would not be a member of SRE, the advisor would be [19:43:19] [2/2] a member of sre but not a board member, the reason behind this is to prevent single points of failure, so that way in the event one of the positions leaves it would cause major issues. I would propose a similar structure for any other teams that report to the board. [19:43:31] Easier said than done. You have to be in a jurisdiction that discourages them. [19:43:58] Not fully. He's currently discussing with Void to transfer assets to him. [19:44:00] can you make it into graphic form? [19:44:02] Chairman/secretary could be combined [19:44:07] No [19:44:14] and make treasurer independent [19:44:26] You don't really want the chair to have to be the secretary [19:44:52] Two different responsibilities; having had to do effectively both jobs when running a meeting that's really hard to do well [19:45:08] That's what I was thinking [19:46:05] CFO-type position, and you can have a volunteer audit subcommittee if needed [19:46:17] yeah [19:47:17] Secretary and chair should be separate tho for the reasons others have said [19:47:55] weird idea, but couldn't assets be transferred to another company in the UK that you can deem trustworthy enough? [19:48:14] and then you can do whatever with the remains of Miraheze organisation [19:48:41] Runescape wikis for example are located in the UK as well [19:48:48] Same issue with that as the finding a UK board member [19:48:53] well, if owen is leaving then we'd have to rely on ServerChoice for physical hardware management [19:48:57] the only problem is the legal viability that would come to them from that [19:48:57] <.labster#0000, replying to talthiel#0000> There should definitely be two officers. [19:49:09] as was our only physical access [19:49:14] <.labster#0000> There should definitely be two officers. [19:49:42] Chair and Secretary would be my pick [19:50:19] Treasurer should be appointed by board with a deputy in case of emergency [19:50:23] [1/2] yeah, I get that it requires a buy-in from another company [19:50:23] [2/2] just trying to see how realistic this way of dealing with this situation is [19:50:47] especially because of a short timeframe [19:53:00] @.labster this is sort of how I had envisioned how the technical side of things would fall in line organizational [19:55:39] <_chrs_#0000, replying to lichmaster98#0000> very much so, taking minutes while chairing is pain [19:56:15] no community appointmentsv [19:57:20] This is purely outlining the technical side of things [19:57:26] <.labster#0000, replying to zppix#0000> Good but too many layers for our level of staff [19:58:21] <.labster#0000> The structure should be as flat as practicable [19:58:25] I realize that, however I rather start with the framework for it then have to figure it out later [19:58:25] Seems like you're going to struggle to fill that many seats [19:58:48] Its only one layer? [19:58:50] <.labster#0000> I think I can fill seats with outreach [19:58:53] Board volunteers haven't exactly been forthcoming [19:59:04] You have the board then sre advisor then sre? [19:59:27] So its actually only one additional position? [19:59:38] Actually not really [19:59:45] I thought the SRE advisor was the Technical Director on the board? [19:59:50] Because we would elimate both em positions and replace with this [20:00:49] <.labster#0000> We should throw out the current structure. It brought us here [20:00:56] Thats what this is doing [20:00:57] this [20:01:12] The current structure is 2 ems on the board then direct to sre [20:01:51] This is sliming it to one non-sre member as technical director to a member of sre that serves as an advisor, that then goes to sre [20:02:34] So instead of 2 technical board positions its just 1 [20:02:51] there is currently 1 [20:03:06] 2, Infra and MW [20:03:09] It did use to be 1 - DSRE [20:03:18] Wait [20:03:27] [[Board]] [20:03:28] [20:03:54] no @zppix itā€™s currently 1 [20:03:54] SRE used to not be split into two teams [20:04:25] Okay so completely scrap that idea [20:04:54] Sre would not be split into two teams and would just report directly to the board then [20:05:29] @zppix re Board overall, if moved to the US [20:05:53] I would propose that all Board members aside from the chairman can remain anonymous if they wish [20:06:05] like only username for the board [20:06:13] US law doesnt require public info [20:06:17] it would raise interest for the board 100x [20:06:17] You're not anonymous primarily because UK law requires your info be disclosed [20:06:30] not by choice [20:06:32] yeah so if it was the US, that should be new policy [20:06:35] Us law doesnt [20:06:50] theoretically even the chairman can remain anon [20:07:08] US law requires only one personā€™s info to be public I believe (cc @.labster ) [20:08:03] <.labster#0000> That's correct [20:08:04] Problem is that also lowers the stake [20:08:23] <.labster#0000> You're supposed to tell the government where all the board members live, but they already know šŸ‘€ [20:08:32] If people aren't signing an NDA and having some stake (being public employees) they won't commit [20:08:45] Yes the NDA issue [20:08:56] I'm open to volunteering with the infrastructure side of things, what kind of skills / time commitment are you looking for? [20:08:58] Okay lets visit this for a minute [20:09:15] nickmxski: [[Tech:Organisation]] [20:09:34] It's hard to say in time... but basically a few hours a week would already be great [20:09:40] so basically no seperation between mediawiki and infra then [20:09:46] You can also set the address to be a corporate address. @theresnotime mentioned it. It's called a proxy address. [20:09:55] Even less. Ideally there would be many volunteers that could all spend a little time [20:10:01] Pretty sure having big stakes didn't help us here [20:10:06] Rather than a few working hard and burning out [20:10:17] So unfortunately NDAs are a requirement that is industry standard and cannot go away, however the way they are done could possibly change [20:10:32] <.labster#0000> I've never even seen this NDA document. [20:10:38] It would be like how it used to be, more of question of what can you do, not you are this, or that [20:10:39] I don't think it's good practice to give access to people without knowing who they are tbh [20:10:54] see pins maybe for now [20:11:09] please talk to a lawyer šŸ™ƒ [20:11:11] WMF does [20:11:23] we used to give access without NDAs before we incorperated [20:11:26] iā€™m actually pretty sure in the US you can sign an NDA at any age and only give your real name, not address [20:11:32] They have NDAs or agreements at least where people sign with their name [20:11:37] <.labster#0000, replying to bwm0#0000> correct [20:11:54] As far as I am aware 18+ without parental consent is required? [20:11:54] <_chrs_#0000> WMF does not ask for your address I believe [20:11:58] But either way they don't just give access to newcomers you need to be there a long time to get access [20:12:03] Yeah not addess just name [20:12:10] we could just pull a WMF and make NDAs signable through phab? [20:12:24] Not anymore. @theresnotime can you confirm please [20:12:28] (not an NDA) [20:12:37] <.labster#0000> I think we can probably get away with what WMF is doing, lol [20:12:45] oh what [20:12:49] There's no way the WMF gives access without knowing people's real name [20:12:51] Wmfā€™s Phab documents are NOT NDAs period. [20:12:53] that would be through legalpad [20:13:01] That's an "agreement" [20:13:22] NDAs have your personal data on, are "signed" and kept on file by legal [20:13:24] If you consider the phab stuff an nda, you will be laughed out of court [20:13:57] <.labster#0000> Doing everything perfectly is the enemy of the good. [20:14:23] What I'd say though is that we've had one situation where a user with bad intent almost got access [20:14:27] Oh... so you have to disclose your legal name to be a CU, for example? [20:14:31] There would also be the matter of needing new stewards [20:14:36] Up to, but not including, stuff that involves PII and legal matters [20:14:37] So we can't just ditch ant measure of safety and welcome everyone in [20:14:43] Said user had an NDA though [20:14:44] That's too much in the opposite direction [20:14:52] <.labster#0000> We need to be able, if we have to, to go into a court and say "Look, we had this data protection plan, and it failed, but we seriously tried." [20:15:04] ^ [20:15:06] <.labster#0000> No, including legal and PII. [20:15:24] How'd that work out for y'all? [20:15:36] Oh, yeah, not well. [20:15:45] <.labster#0000, replying to theresnotime#0000> Who is y'all in this scenario? [20:15:48] Maybe listen to people with experience? [20:15:55] Labster let me send you a copy of what my NDA looks like [20:16:07] MacFan4000: what's the problem with the Stewards? [20:16:15] <.labster#0000> @theresnotime that's exactly what I've been doing. [20:16:23] Well either way allowing people access to personal data without knowing their name isn't a good idea IMO [20:16:24] We have only 1 (Void) we need people to replace him [20:16:27] No fighting please [20:16:50] who would want to be a steward as currently is? [20:17:02] and who has the miraheze standing to do so? [20:17:04] there's one person interested in Steward last I checked, unfortunately doesn't have much of a chance imo [20:17:14] Okay, so let's go to real name but no address. That's fine, right? Cc: @theresnotime [20:17:15] bwm0: No-one has the standing lol [20:17:19] Orange_Star: who [20:17:20] <.labster#0000> I've had years of experience in software security. All software security can fail. Every company documents risks that they just accept. We just have to make our best possible effort, given our clients and company's constraints. [20:17:22] If things change I'd consider a return [20:17:34] I'd be okay with that [20:17:50] @rhinosf1 how about you? [20:18:08] As low as reasonably practical is our standard for risks [20:18:27] It's not up to me, you literally need to ask a lawyer (depending on where you decide to incorporate, seeing as the requirements will be different) [20:18:32] <.labster#0000, replying to rhinosf1#0000> this is everyone's standard sadly [20:18:37] But beyond legal documents I think it's clear some trust needs to be established first and not everyone can just be let in immediately [20:19:04] I'm saying is that in line with at least WMF's practices? [20:19:26] For certain things, yes. For others, no. [20:19:34] I wouldn't say it's sad. It's a phrase I'm sick of seeing and saying in H&S discussions though. [20:19:34] for stewards? [20:19:58] For stewards, yes. It's not a true NDA though.. [20:20:10] bwm0: Hypercane. I've never heard of them, and doesn't meet the edit count requirements I think [20:20:13] so we could theoretically just do thatā€¦.? [20:20:25] "probably" [20:20:26] What things does the WMF require more than a real name? [20:20:29] assuming not for WMF office or SRE though [20:20:31] <_chrs_#0000> however, the wmf non-public data policy is a different thing from knowing who has access to your servers [20:20:49] As I said I'd be willing to come back if things are different but Steward is really not the priority right now [20:20:51] iirc production access? [20:21:00] There's much more important things to settle first [20:21:16] What does access to production require? [20:21:27] then again, I got NDA'd back when you needed to give a scan of your passport [20:21:37] heh what [20:21:49] It used to be a thing. Don't ask. [20:21:56] <.labster#0000> Again, the NDA is a paper tiger here because we cannot afford lawyers at Miraheze. We can't reasonably enforce it. It's a way to say: yes, we told everyone our policy and made sure they acknowledged they are following it. [20:21:57] I also work for them, so... they already have everything. [20:22:04] true [20:23:06] Put money aside to speak to one. Cheaper than getting sued (and when you get sued, all those "anonymous board members" will have to have over their details) [20:23:28] So, I know a couple years ago all they needed was my real name and address to get prod access [20:23:30] I agree to some extent, but you need to plan for both success and failure. If we succeed, you want to be able to keep operating [20:23:42] <.labster#0000> It's kind of cool @theresnotime keeps talking as if I'm already on the board. [20:24:09] I damn well hope not. [20:24:10] No antagonism please [20:24:14] <.labster#0000> Success is: we are not legally negligent. [20:24:39] Success is: we have money to enforce our contractual obligations [20:24:54] Failure is: what we have now [20:25:02] Legal negligence? [20:25:05] Yes that is the goal, but not immediately feasiable [20:25:26] Basically we don't get our ass kicked by the ICO [20:25:46] they just send us a stern letter about privacy advice rather than fine us [20:25:50] Who would love to fine y'all for what happened. [20:26:14] board members need NDAs right [20:26:18] We've already had 1 advice letter [20:26:20] <_chrs_#0000> yes [20:26:39] okay [20:27:17] [1/3] so then, how about this? [20:27:18] [2/3] do whatever the WMF is doing for community volunteers, phab legalpad [20:27:18] [3/3] for SRE/Board, do the full thing [20:27:48] Possibly, depending on where you incorporate [20:27:52] [1/3] Okay, so what I am going to suggest is that we have a 2 step NDA. The first step is for Stewards and stuff and should basically copy what the WMF does (only real name required). [20:27:52] [2/3] Second step will require a lawyer and can be figured out later. [20:27:52] [3/3] Can everyone agree to that? [20:27:58] and then hereā€™s the other question: where in the hell does T/S go [20:28:05] The US [20:28:13] do we even keep trust and safety? [20:28:20] Gosh no [20:28:23] Brandon we have not even gotten that far yet [20:28:26] We need a trust & safety team [20:28:35] One step at a time. [20:28:39] Trust and Safety should remain but must be reformed [20:28:40] Okay one step [20:28:44] We just need one that doesn't have systemic problems and is fit for purpose [20:28:53] No tos talk [20:29:20] This is the problem we need to take this one by one, we canā€™t go all squirrel, otherwise its gonna get confusing really quickly [20:29:33] We need to look at the bigger picture [20:29:42] Okay back to this. [20:30:03] I don't really care how NDAs are handled [20:30:09] Sounds interesting [20:30:18] okay back to NDAs then [20:30:23] I like the idea [20:30:31] but Miraheze doesn't have lawyers? [20:30:42] and can't afford them [20:30:44] We'll get to it [20:31:08] okay but until then - does that mean all SRE/Board appointments can't be processed? [20:31:21] in this new structure [20:31:28] Everyone is figuring out what it looks like [20:31:33] ^^^ [20:31:36] or are we going to get to it before it's all done [20:31:49] Ultimately, the risk is owned by whoever is on the new board [20:31:52] okay got it, wasn't sure if the "we'll get to it" meant in a bit or whenever we cross the bridge [20:32:03] Is someone taking notes of all this btw? [20:32:08] what are the odds of us being sued [20:32:11] We're getting to everything in a bit @bwm0 [20:32:13] [20:32:16] <.labster#0000> There are a lot of cooks in the kitchen right now [20:32:26] Orange_Star: I'm going to write up a short recap when all is done [20:32:27] Depends by who and what we do [20:32:28] A formal meeting needs to take place, has any been scheduled? [20:32:31] agreed [20:32:38] @zppix I nominate you to set the agenda right now [20:32:53] A sandcat for T&S lead! [20:32:55] We should open #meetings [20:33:05] i mean, if you need advice on t&s .. [20:33:07] Formal meeting shoud wait until we figure out what's happening with Owen [20:33:10] Would it be alright if I ran the meeting? [20:33:13] No [20:33:14] NDA's are settled for MH2.0. [20:33:25] That way others can discuss and I can just kind of moderate as needed. [20:33:33] <.labster#0000> Meetings should be open unless closed session is needed for legally sensitive matters [20:33:41] @bwm0: you are not running a meeting [20:34:07] @orduin is probably the best to be heading stuff up as he knows the most about every angle [20:34:28] šŸ¤·ā€ā™‚ļø [20:34:39] okay then [20:34:49] Okay, void what else do we need to discuss in MH^2 (which is what I'm calling the new Miraheze structure) [20:35:02] you mean reformed to allow law breaking? Or what do you mean by reformed? [20:35:14] what problems do you see in T&S. [20:35:26] i think the lax getting rid of toxic people is one cause for miraheze [20:35:31] Don't know yet, because the situation is till too far up in the air. [20:35:53] The complete failure to handle abuse properly [20:35:56] this is refering to nale [20:36:09] what do you mean [20:36:21] Not just Naleksuh + Raidarr, our abuse structure has been slow and not fit for purpose for years [20:36:26] Tone it down with the loaded questions. [20:36:35] Stewards were always too afraid to handle Nale because they thought we'd either get a Doug revocation 2.0 or T&S sanction [20:36:36] [1/3] Okay, so I'm just going to run this: [20:36:37] [2/3] We're talking about T&S now. [20:36:37] [3/3] First question: What should it do for MH^2? [20:36:40] On this point, I feel like everyone here is missing the point [20:36:53] which they ended up getting the latter........ [20:37:07] Originally we had SRE in charge who weren't trained, supported or qualified, stewards were too afraid or slow in many cases forcing others hands, CoCC were slow and didn't do anything [20:37:22] It's not just specific people. It's that the Miraheze community has been bred to create and invite toxic personalities. The entire system has failed. [20:37:31] Shush brandon [20:37:34] @paladox [20:37:50] ok [20:37:57] Well, I just put my name forward to help volunteer with the SRE Security Engineering. Hopefully we can get enough volunteers together to keep things running! šŸ˜ƒ [20:38:07] jesus frickin christ if we're going to have a conversation, stop with these comments [20:38:13] The community has made it clear that much less leniency is required for any sort of disruptive behavior and that excessive clemency is no longer in order, a la Apex and Nale [20:38:20] CALM DOWN [20:38:34] Okay, let me bring in a neutralish view point, Trust and Safety has never really scaled to the community, and has had a severe lack of accountability, and oversight [20:38:46] I agree completely [20:39:00] @zppix our entire abuse procedures have always had systemic failings [20:39:02] Should we break some of these discussions into threads so its easier to keep track of the conversation? [20:39:15] But I'd rather not give all the examples in here [20:39:19] Yeah, maybe.. [20:39:20] This also means that stewards have to be BOLD and can't be scared of revocations and sanctions [20:39:22] We've severely veered off the topic of finding new tech volunteers [20:39:34] Ideally, maybe this should even be moved to #meetings [20:39:37] Everyone.. focus [20:40:00] but to be fair, the power structure of Miraheze in terms of community has always had an element of "do this or I resign" (ie. John) [20:40:06] The question isn't what did T&S do. It is what should it do? [20:40:12] @bwm0 let's not [20:40:14] I did suggest that a while ago [20:40:15] Somehow we need to remove that, which is something that I can't answer [20:40:43] Have no opposition except that we'll inevitably go off on a tangent in that thread as well [20:40:43] We're mixing up topics and losing sight of the big picture [20:41:54] What element of the big picture should be discussed? [20:42:06] to be fair, i'm lost myself [20:42:07] [1/2] Okay, I'm giving up for now. No one is listening to me, and I can't exactly ban people from this channel to force people to stay on topic. [20:42:07] [2/2] If you want to have a productive conversation, ping me. If you want to wine about drama I don't care about, then don't bother. [20:42:37] I believe the current status is ā€œwait for Void, Owen, Zippx to discuss and announce a meetingā€ [20:42:43] Yes [20:42:53] <.labster#0000> People are just going to talk about drama until theyā€™d emotionally processed it [20:43:05] We need a #venting [20:43:20] I'd love to have a productive conversation, but my question is what specific topic? [20:43:27] This is standard everywhere. [20:43:39] you've got a couple of months to figure stuff out, right? perhaps everyone can take a bit of time to process what's happened before you start having the hard conversations? [20:43:39] I for one will have to leave so if someone could please have a summary of the main points discussed when the conversation comes to an end that would be much appreciated [20:43:53] Happy to write one up, was planning on it anyway [20:43:53] I won't have time to read like 500 missed messages [20:44:02] allow the emotions time to subside. approach with a clearer head [20:44:19] <.labster#0000> Continuity of operations: SREs to run things, and getting a legal entity to run things in. [20:44:46] Comments about culture or whatever should probably be left in #general, for one [20:45:02] @orduin create #venting [20:45:15] Or @reception123 @notaracham [20:45:23] Y'all, I wasn't there for any of the drama you are talking about. Unlike all of you, I have no emotions to process. [20:45:36] that's great, but other people obviously need time [20:45:41] The only thing I want to talk about is how we move forwars [20:46:08] I have been summoned? [20:46:19] Maybe a venting threat would suffice for now? [20:46:25] @notaracham do you have create channel and unlock channel perms [20:46:50] [1/2] Answering a message from 3 hours ago: [20:46:50] [2/2] If we need a UK-based member for MH Board, we could try to convince RhinosF1, Reception123 or someone who knows Miraheze and is from the UK at the same time. [20:46:52] Heh, no, won't be doing that unilaterally, please create thread as proposed. [20:46:53] Just go with thread at #offtopic [20:47:02] This, yes. [20:47:13] Completely #offtopic-worthy /not-a-joke [20:47:15] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1119367574820487269/1119367577836200038 [20:47:57] [1/6] Overview of what's been discussed thus far: [20:47:58] [2/6] - NDAs will have a 2-step process, first is for Stewards and community PII, the second is for staff access [20:47:58] [3/6] - Connect with a lawyer to discuss how NDAs will work and what formation of the board will look like [20:47:58] [4/6] - Trust and Safety needs a reform, though what exactly needs change is unclear [20:47:59] [5/6] - We need to find people to fill community/technical seats [20:47:59] [6/6] - Discuss possible anonymity for new Board [20:48:09] Have I missed anything [20:48:42] i think that a more hard handed approach is needed. Need to be careful tho. [20:48:57] like nale should have clearly have been gotten rid of ages ago. [20:49:14] added [20:49:39] to ask the people involved here, on a policy note: is our current Content Policy fine? [20:49:56] if we're truly starting over, then we should also work to improve our reputation [20:49:57] More of a question for the community afterward than for the organizational structure that we need to build now. [20:49:59] 501c3 lol I recall that plan @ #miraheze-staff back in sometimes 2017 or 2018 [20:50:17] @orduin mind a pin? [20:50:21] Idk who that is and shouldn't have to care [20:50:21] Brandon youā€™re still way ahead of the current step. The community can do limited work on anything last the organizational structure which is likely blocked by Owen, Void, etc being able to discuss it. [20:50:30] Then UK Ltd came out of nowhere and boom [20:50:36] frankly it's what started all this, at least this iteration of it [20:50:45] That's a vent [20:50:55] suppose that's true [20:50:57] Idc who started this. I just want to deal with it [20:51:29] If you're not providing a solution or summarising discussion in here, go the venting thread. [20:51:48] adding to this @zppix's proposed format for the board and technical directors [20:51:56] [1/2] Okay, if people are finally ready to be productive: [20:51:56] [2/2] What should T&S do for MH^2? [20:52:33] That is the only question that is on my mind. [20:53:17] It sorta feels like ā€¦ some wants T&S to be un-elected-super-ban-authority-who-can-ignore-community [20:53:41] T&S has done a good job at not being that... until it didn't [20:53:44] But what do you want? [20:53:48] @zppix to clarify: is technical director on SRE? because if it is, isn't SRE advisor redundant? [20:53:55] Trust and Safety would be basically the most extreme cases only, and it would need a clearly defined guideline on when they are allowed to act, furthermore they need to be fully accountable and have a form of oversiggt [20:54:09] "An umpire does its best work when no one notices its work." [20:54:10] Haven't made my opinion yet? [20:54:11] An issue I have with the current T&S is that the appeals process is rather strict. Of course, I agree that if you did something severe (say, CSAM, hacking, etc.), you should be punished severely but the current process for anything else requires that you prove that T&S was wrong and doesn't allow for any leniency for future appeals once time has passed for lower level offenses [20:54:14] No, the technical director is not part of Sre [20:54:43] T&S shouldn't need to do the lower level offences [20:54:58] at least miraheze had a appeals process [20:55:09] that was recently added though [20:55:13] So my question is what does T&S do that Stewards can't do? [20:55:37] Enforce the ToU, Stewards cannot do that or else the Board would have the ability to remove Stewards [20:55:49] Things where there is legal implication [20:55:49] i mean you cannot make appeals relaxed [20:56:01] like T&S should be the last resort [20:56:10] I just need @zppix to confirm [20:56:24] cough [20:56:28] CSAM, severe harassment, computer misuse, GDPR complaints, some copyright issues [20:56:39] Why is the assumption the community/Stewards are unable to enforce the ToU? [20:57:03] They can but again, the Board would have the ability to remove Stewards if they enforce it incorrectly [20:57:14] This is another vent or at the very least not needed here [20:57:15] as ToU is a legal obligation that falls solely on the Board [20:57:18] [1/2] Reception123, if you are a UK-BASED member, you could apply to board. [20:57:18] [2/2] Or RhinosF1. Both of you have my trust for running for Board if that is needed. šŸ‘ [20:57:19] Because then the Board would have the power to remove Stewards for incorrectly enforcing the ToU, which would create an extreme fear to do anything by Stewards, leading to ineffectiveness [20:57:40] Why would the board have that power? [20:57:42] He is not UK [20:57:52] John is an example, but by no means the only example [20:57:58] Because the Board is responsible for enforcing the ToU, or appointing some to enforce it. [20:58:04] T&S is generally where we have a legal obligation [20:58:14] <_chrs_#0000> the board should not be inspiring paralyzing fear [20:58:21] ToU enforcement is something that Board delegates, especially since it deals with legal things. If Stewards enforce it incorrectly, the Board would be within their right to remove them [20:58:41] We should be avoiding criticising individuals. And yes Brandon has been told where to take that. [20:58:41] <_chrs_#0000, replying to agentisai#0000> they can just... un-delegate it from that particular steward [20:58:47] [1/2] Then i have Bad memory, sorry. [20:58:47] [2/2] If you are british you could try. I think you have experience with Miraheze [20:58:56] I can not [20:59:06] * And why is that a problem? [20:59:11] then that's a bad look [20:59:14] If you cannot trust S to make correct judgment about some T&S case why would they trust them at all [20:59:22] <_chrs_#0000> exactly [20:59:23] it also adds a lot to Stewards' plate [20:59:33] Okay, so on Wikipedia, if someone violates the ToU, I can block them as an admin and lock them as a Steward. You are all saying that I cannot do that on MH because that's a board function? [20:59:54] You wouldn't deal with a death threat alone though would you [21:00:00] I mean, technically.....yes. Or at least that's how it is currently. [21:00:06] You'd be emailing emergency@ [21:00:11] Or at least you can't do it unilaterally [21:00:20] Well, you absolutely deal with it first and then alert the proper channels. [21:00:35] legal@wm.o response on that matter was 'it's good if you do it but it is not your job' when I asked, fwiw [21:00:45] Yes, Stewards can lock in an emergency for something T&S should handle. [21:00:57] Same as on Wikimedia [21:01:31] T&S is supposed to be the proper venue, but I don't see any reason why Steward's can't enforce TOU, as long as T&S are brought into the loop to make sure everything is handled according to our legal obligations. [21:01:32] T&S shouldn't be handling legal matters, a specific team delegated by the Board should. The ToU is basically all legal stuff, most other things are delegated to the community which is why our ToU is so short. I think the T&S model is salvageable but specific things must change [21:01:56] Anything T&S handle should be a legal matter [21:01:59] if T/S doesn't handle legal matters, what does it handle? [21:02:12] That sounds like you need to rename T&Sā€¦ to Legal. [21:02:29] Yes [21:02:51] that's all they handle basically. I'm sure many of you have read our ToU, it's nothing too complex or overarching, it's mainly just legal stuff [21:03:04] Okay, so what I'm seeing is you really want a legal department with maybe some T&S agents under them. [21:03:08] It's short on purpose, so that the community can handle everything else [21:03:30] Well no, they don't write the privacy policy. Legal do that. They enforce issues that are the step before or at the level of legal action. [21:04:10] And I'm sure @gelato_affogato is aware, you don't want untrained stewards handling emergency@ [21:04:26] The people answering that need proper support. Emergency@ cases are shit to handle. [21:04:54] If you don't have a legal department though, then how is it you even know if your T&S is properly trained? [21:05:15] We don't. That's an issue I raised before T&S existed @mjl1 [21:05:34] Some of the comments made so far seems like to suggest you want to deal with paperworks and casework at the same dept, then it seems to me that Legal is the correct dept name to be, with T&S being a sub-section of it [21:05:45] Owen did give some training on that, he has a special presentation to teach T&S responders applicable law [21:05:53] So I would start with growing a legal department and hire T&S out of that [21:06:04] @agentisai not just applicable law. There's a human side. [21:06:16] (ie. Mental Health) [21:06:20] Responders handling suicide and CSAM cases need proper after care. [21:06:20] Applicable law + what to do is what I meant [21:06:35] Yes, all of that was in the presentation iirc [21:06:51] @agentisai a presentation is not proper after care [21:06:53] The WMF has T&S under legal for the reasons revi is alluding to [21:06:54] Also I'm not sure if this was ever clarified, maybe I missed it, and slightly offtopic, but what's the current plan now with physical servers? Since Owen is resigning once all this has been put in place. [21:07:13] Brandon, please for the love of everything [21:07:18] Unless Owen is paying for private health insurance and included an phone number for 24/7 counselling [21:07:31] In the air, leave it for the formal meeting later. [21:07:44] If only we had the money [21:07:55] Yes exactly [21:07:57] T&S has never had to handle anything horrendous though, in my time here at least [21:07:58] Got it, just wanted to make sure nothing had happened that I missed [21:08:16] We've handled CSAM + a suicide in my time [21:08:35] again, pin? [21:08:41] I'm aware of the CSAM but didn't know about the suicide [21:08:58] Things happen [21:09:07] I can think of at least one. I think @owenrb handled it. [21:09:27] And before anyone asks, no, we don't find out anything after a report is made. [21:09:59] I classify CSAM as horrendous [21:14:05] [1/2] Okay, so I'm seeing here is we want a group to handle sensitive cases and to ensure legal compliance. That'd probably be under legal. [21:14:05] [2/2] I'm not seeing any suggestion to give T&S more power than to handle extremely sensitive matters though. [21:14:50] @mjl1 that's correct [21:14:53] Yes [21:15:20] T&S needs less powers more training and official structure. [21:17:03] I think the main priority is sorting the board tbf, not T&S at this exact moment? [21:17:14] T&S didn't really have that much power, all it enforced was legal compliance, nothing else [21:18:38] [1/2] So I would suggest that MH^2 start by getting a well organized legal department (even if it's one person) to report directly to the board. [21:18:38] [2/2] T&S can then be under that legal department. [21:19:36] Things need to prioritise [21:31:01] So this was in essence how T&S began at Miraheze, exactly this way [21:31:20] did your avatar change from red to blue Owen [21:31:32] or am I imagining things [21:31:55] It did indeed [21:35:30] First yellow, then red, now blue [21:46:49] it is pride month after all [22:22:22] <.labster#0000> Hi @owenrb, I'd love to talk. [22:22:46] <.labster#0000> Please PM me. [22:23:06] _makes Labster Prime Minister._ [22:23:14] is it just me or is labster's pfp off center in the circle [22:23:18] Congrats on the promotion x [22:23:21] <.labster#0000> And face PMQs? no thanks. [22:23:36] ā€œLabster did you go to a partyā€ [22:23:41] Canā€™t do any worse than the current government? [22:24:10] <.labster#0000> My avatar is not exactly a default one. I added angry eyebrows. [22:28:54] It's 23:28 so Owen may be asleep [22:30:04] <.labster#0000> It's looking like we're going to need to create a new organization to house Miraheze, and because it is new it won't have the same problems once we make it we'll have to solve all of the same problems. [22:31:05] <.labster#0000, replying to rhinosf1#0000> He'll see it when he comes back. There's no need to rush everything. [22:45:13] Is there a plan to do mass notification / emails in case it will be decided to continue with dissolution? [23:00:12] A lot of these seem really dubious/possibly bad [23:07:30] 1 thing from this list that concerns me is what is the plan with the servers in the event that you move to the US? Do you take them with you? If so, Miraheze is going to be offline for a while. If you leave them in Stevenage, who's going to attend to them? [23:34:49] I think remote hands on? [23:35:34] Technically theres not a huge need to physically access them, except maybe for once every few months [23:35:49] But if needed it would be a remote hands on situation [23:37:34] (It is, staff at datacenter will do the job as instructed) [23:37:52] (Just In Case ā„¢ļø)