[01:30:47] [1/2] As said above, it's a labor intensive effort one needs to put thought into vs a simple conversion. [01:30:48] [2/2] We absolutely don't have the volunteer bandwidth to do the investigation, scope and build on behalf of all SMW wikis. [01:32:26] [1/2] That's starting to get into the level of effort and project development that people get paid money professionally and can make a full career out of. [01:32:26] [2/2] (Not that that's not true of some of our other volunteer roles. 🤣 ) [02:38:17] Difference is that volunteer sysadmining scales across the farm. Spending 100 hours redoing a wiki doesn't [04:22:30] @posix_memalign As the one other bureaucrat on Miraheze Communities when do you suppose it would be time to close https://communities.miraheze.org/wiki/Project:Requests_for_Comment/Wiki_Scope ? [04:26:23] petra is crat on communities? [04:26:26] huh [04:34:02] i don't think there's pages for the crats and sysops like with testwiki but communities is smaller in that aspect I think [04:49:30] There isn't much lore. I was the founding bureaucrat, and then I immediately appointed a second one [07:21:29] i wonder why reception is a meta sysop. [07:21:41] dont stewards act as meta bcrats? [07:29:37] Doesn't mean stewards aren't also allowed to be elected meta admins. [07:30:20] They're separate things, I'm fairly sure. [07:30:41] I supposed, but it wouldn't make sense for a Steward to run for sysop [07:31:00] if a sysop became a Steward though, that would make more sense [07:31:14] they prob never ended up removing the right [07:32:17] There's no reason to, even if you become a steward you'd still be an elected meta admin. [07:33:40] yeah, it's just Steward supercedes meta [07:33:47] like when I became a patroller [07:33:54] my autopatrol right got taken away [07:34:22] and when pix became an AS he dropped the GS hat [07:35:01] It also allows someone to resign the higher ranked role and keep the other one (for time reasons or whathaveyou). [07:36:08] That's a permission rather than responsibility thing, no? [07:36:23] which message r u replying to? [07:36:24] I cant see [07:36:29] drawbacks of IRC [07:36:40] Autopatrolled [07:37:12] yeah I guess [07:37:35] but anyway its not really common to just resign one specific role because of less time or whatever [07:37:56] its just, its kinda like [07:38:05] Doesn't mean that the systems should assume that that will never happen. [07:38:09] when you make a wiki you're automatically the bcrat [07:38:32] but you're also assigned sysop [07:38:37] so like [07:38:42] anyway [07:38:47] I need to focus on my book [07:54:44] Meta used to have its own crat and admin systems and stricter non intervention by global volunteers [07:54:59] uh huh [07:55:43] This is less of a thing now, but is the reason that reception, agent and I all ran for meta admin despite being stewards [07:57:01] really [07:57:04] interesting [07:57:27] I can't actually think of any real things meta admins do that are special to being a meta admin that normal people with global groups couldnt' do [07:57:30] I see less of agent and reception, now that I think about it [07:57:35] aside from giving out autopatrolled but I don't really see the point in autopatrolled [07:57:41] I haven't seen agent in a while [07:57:55] huh [07:58:04] huh what [07:58:14] I wanted to say a witty response but um [07:58:16] wikigrid is living proof agent hasn't been around in a while [07:58:19] I cant think of anything [07:58:36] I don't know if it's origin timeout or origin unreachable but it's pretty much a corpse [07:58:58] that's sad [07:59:21] wikigrid was for lack of a better term a way to keep certain things away from mh [07:59:55] they were hosting a Polandball wiki right [07:59:56] That's not what I would have guessed, interesting. [08:00:04] not sure if it's officially dead but mrbeast hasn't given me my money from the hundreds of messages in their discord [08:00:07] I think so [08:00:30] A formality that's largely not a thing anymore [08:00:30] ...mrbeast? [08:00:33] OHHHHHHH [08:00:37] elite ball knowledge [08:00:49] I would argue the farm space is diverse enough nowadays [08:01:17] Oh, sorry, was referring to the meta admin thing [08:01:20] ahh [08:01:29] Discord is being laggy on showing messages [08:01:40] tbh I disagree with using wikigrid as a place to keep projects distanced from mh [08:01:56] while it's realistically for the best I don't think it's necessarily the most transparent handling of such scenarios [08:02:09] (wikioasis.....) huh what did someone say anything [08:02:13] Not really its use, from my perspective [08:02:34] I've always seen it as the place to put things that aren't really mh suitable [08:03:44] other than the Polandball wiki what did WikiGrid host anyway [08:03:46] Though it did admittedly serve a lot of wikis no longer welcome at MH, it wasn't so much a direct pipleine [08:03:55] uh [08:03:57] tbh idr [08:05:00] might have had some reception wikis but they mostly rebounded onto WO after skywiki went [08:05:19] I see [08:05:34] skywiki was the reception wiki place because of not sure if I can say who since the vanish's involvement in both groups [08:06:27] vanish's? [08:06:27] Back to the meta admin topic, that was before the reforms on superceding rights where all roles are basically a Russian nesting doll now [08:06:39] oh, that's a good metaphor [08:07:02] I consider "not sure if I can say who since the vanish" a proper noun here [08:07:15] hence the 's instead of pluralising to vanishes [08:07:18] I'd lean toward respecting their wishes rhere [08:07:27] oh [08:07:33] is it the uh [08:07:40] notsureificansaywhosincethevanish [08:07:43] You most likely know [08:07:52] and your assumption is probably correct [08:07:58] I digress [08:08:11] i ponder the times with notsureificansaywhosincethevanish [08:08:16] but oh well [08:08:38] tbh I think there was slightly too much structure there that modelled more of the WMF governance on meta when really there wasn't the community for it [08:08:39] what matters is that we're here and they aren't [08:08:46] that sounds slightly rude [08:09:02] oh, sorry if it came off like that [08:09:13] what I mean is, like [08:09:19] we can remember silently [08:09:26] and keep going forwards, yk? [08:09:50] those who were around at the time know and the rest don't need to and we can end the discussion on this topic and go back to meta yap [08:10:20] Yeah, I'd say we're in a much more flexible place today than we used to be on 'who is permitted to do what and when' without losing too much in accountability and auditability [08:10:21] I like that idea [08:10:44] Still a few loose ends from all that overhaul, but so it goes [08:11:13] speaking of yap and this is more of a question for #tech and/or something to push into phorge as an ext request, is Yappin from WG existent on MH as that comments extension thingy or am I just too lazy to do the research into it and I should go suggest adding Yappin onto phorge [08:11:46] Also comes from a history before my time of global roles being a bit too fast and loose with enforcement and causing a backlash on opt outs/opt ins [08:11:56] ok I answered my own question with a no [08:12:30] and it already exists in [[T14569]] [08:12:30]

[08:12:36] which won't link properly because wiki bot is foolish [08:13:13] There's a phorge thingy for wikibot but I don't remember the prefix [08:13:21] [[phab:T14569]] [08:13:22]

[08:13:25] ok that is the one [08:13:26] That's the one [08:13:39] I never understand why the subdomain is issue-tracker and not just phorge or phab [08:13:46] but that seems like a relic from john days if I'm tbh [08:14:42] John days [08:14:59] ah yes our founder John Miraheze [08:15:00] NOT [08:15:20] The heze of yore, oldaheze [08:15:29] Elderheze? [08:15:30] john mostly predates me but I think there was probably a time he was around and I was probably involved somewhere [08:15:38] I know enough of the lore [08:15:46] I wonder whatever happens to John and southparkfan [08:15:51] happened* [08:16:04] john got a ts ban from wmf wikis I believe [08:16:08] and southparkfan lives happily ever after [08:16:11] really? [08:16:21] from what I can tell there was a lot of larp in the old days [08:16:25] how does one get banned from wmf wikis [08:16:36] stuff like "engineering managers" was very amusing to backread on [08:16:39] many ways [08:16:47] I would list them but some of them are not appropriate for here [08:17:05] WMF = wiki media foundation right [08:17:05] no idea how he got one though [08:17:42] got one? [08:17:59] I'm not familiar with WMF like at all [08:18:10] yes [08:18:10] WCNA 2025 (I think that was the year) would be a good way to get yourself banned from WMF projects [08:18:23] although ironically WMF T&S were lacking a little there [08:18:39] possibly not the best space to discuss further but pointing you to the incident is good enough for you to figure it out [08:20:15] WCNA? [08:20:26] how does one even get involved with the WMF [08:20:35] idk I kinda have it in my headspace like [08:20:35] be a wikipedia editor [08:20:39] a mediawiki developer [08:20:40] oh [08:20:42] it's very open [08:20:48] I....see [08:20:49] although the foundation have some issues [08:20:55] this is getting more #offtopic tbh [08:22:37] ye [12:21:07] [1/2] then there was me who went a long time in the earlier system with only the steward hat, no wiki creator, no meta admin. Never pursued the latter, shedded the former because I considered it being ex officio and the rights overlapped anyway. Its only quandry was when people wanted to look up people who have wiki creation scope, which is a minor reason to r [12:21:07] [2/2] etain it since it is a specialized high traffic role. The other reason is there is a shortcut in the sidebar tied to WC now that steward benefts from. The one hat arrangement had some funny moments and a few people questioned it, but it did work out reasonably. Easier to just have than not though [12:23:26] [1/2] much of the time meta admin was one of the stepping blocks all stewards had, a formula I definitely broke and as described above NA and a couple others may have broke later, but because that separation of scope was stiffer there was more reason to independently run for it after anyway. Now I would be seriously tempted by an argument where if someone went straight to steward without [12:23:26] [2/2] most of the admin chain, that they would be ex officio admin as well, since it is completely irregular for a non-admin bureaucrat to be an intended arrangement on a wiki [12:33:23] [1/9] as far as the existence of the local roles I will say this. Part of it is just the cruft of there being an extreme separation that has slowly crumpled over the years. But something about global roles is how damn broad they are. Here's one scope example. As a Steward I have a certain level of duty involving all wikis, particularly miraheze projects at a macro scale, multiple seperate [12:33:23] [2/9] queues, and so on. This work is distributed but only among a small team. This team must both manage the little stuff and realistically it is also a nexus for where a lot of forward-thinking for the platform happens as a lot of stuff has either happens from or conversations adjacent to the steward level. [12:33:23] [3/9] To offset this you have the CVT chain and the odd assistant steward + wiki mechanic. [12:33:24] [4/9] Mechanic is dead and lost its purpose to exist because it is too privileged to be assigned lightly, too narrow to majorly offset things, its scope with a little more friction is mostly just finding someone trustworthy here and giving them local rights, and to the extent it had a unique role to offer steward requests, it has been superseded by tech taking over most restricted changes, [12:33:24] [5/9] the kinds of things WM is supposed to address anyway. It is a dead role imo. [12:33:24] [6/9] Assistant steward is vastly more useful but being second to steward its numbers remain limited. It's more of a seasonal hat, as realistically there are only a few arrangements that are realistic why it wouldn't just be an interim for building up to full steward. [12:33:24] [7/9] Then there's global admin. We have one. It's more balanced but can only do so much. Across its existence it has been seated with people of limited activity or who are training up. [12:33:25] [8/9] GP is a first responder eyes on the ground role not intended to administer everyday affairs. [12:33:25] [9/9] All combined there is little to offer everyday meta activity where that is a primary purpose for meta roles is built. [12:38:12] [1/4] Global roles, leaning senior, do sit as the bureaucrat function, but if there is someone with a mixture of different branches who would like to help on meta where they visit often, like a handful of our meta admins who are also tech but do not want to be bogged down with global scope in the community line, then we benefit from their assistance without overloading them. We have more e [12:38:12] [2/4] yes on the ground that are focused on meta affairs. That is valuable I think. The same is a good approach for other public miraheze projects, and what is likely to come for commons. Yes, being a global affecting project, there should be tight global supervision. But reasonably trusted local people to take day to day affairs lets them use their specialized interest to make things bett [12:38:13] [3/4] er better and lets global roles do more global stuff. This is useful and a niche beyond just throwing all miraheze projects into the cvt chain's lap. It is why I like the idea of local bureaucrats even on commons, or would prefer that on dev/retain native consuls for test if those come up next: commons (dev, test) very rarely fits an everyday global volunteer's routine, so if there a [12:38:13] [4/4] re people who are willing to give focus who are reasonably trusted and as long as we can step in when necessary, I think it is a happy compromise [12:39:14] top of ramble https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1225560610628964423/1532362401050267778 [13:08:01] it is `phorge:` [13:08:27] to make people automatically patrolled [13:09:38] meaning less patrolling work, right? [14:00:00] Actually no it used to be phabricator.miraheze.org, we changed it to issue tracker when we replaced the Phabricator software with Phorge [14:00:57] That’s.. not how I’d say it but, sure. And yes, 2025 was the one you’re thinking of [15:03:44] which is curious to me considering phorge is just a fork(?) of phab [15:04:16] not like it matters just interesting [15:10:52] future proofing + making more clear to end useers [15:26:47] the spelling of issue tracker is much more easier to memorize [15:30:36] mysql vs mariadb [18:57:49] iirc at least part of the reason we decided to use issue-tracker was that we weren't sure if phorge was going to stick around (or if we were going to continue using it) [19:01:45] Is issue-tracker a separate Phabricator fork project then? [19:02:42] at a minimum, `issue-tracker.miraheze.org` is much more clear in terms of its purpose than `phorge.miraheze.org` :) [19:04:05] nah, we just called the domain issue-tracker so we wouldn't have to worry about swapping domains around in the future if we had to change to a different software [19:08:18] @orduin: good idea :) [19:08:34] software-agnostic subdomains are always a good idea [20:10:03] dmehus: Phorge is a community fork of Phabricator. Phacility stopped maintaining it. [20:10:36] https://admin.phacility.com/phame/post/view/11/phacility_is_winding_down_operations/ [20:11:30] RhinosF1: yeah [23:00:30] ive begun tackling https://commons.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Files_with_unknown_license [23:00:39] it started at around 170 files [23:02:07] most of which seem to be deletable and either unused or used on 1 wiki [23:17:14] MacFan4000: that seems like a good potential Commons policy, to be honest. The one exception to that would be files used only by Loginwiki and Meta Wiki, since files aren't permitted on those wikis [23:30:21] communities also explicitly defers to commons and it is worth watching for that [23:30:24] seems like we are most likely going to adopt the uploader role, which should stop most all of that stuff [23:31:41] technically files are permitted on meta for trusted users [23:32:55] (anybody with the skipcapatcha user right can upload) [23:44:42] raidarr: yes, good point too :) [23:46:31] Yes, we'll want to make sure the `uploader` is a very low barrier role, though. Basically, as long as someone is competent enough to upload an in-scope image and add a licensing tag