[00:00:19] Bye. [00:39:47] [discord] Dmehus is back guys. [00:43:24] What [00:43:28] looking [00:43:54] [[Special:RecentChanges]] Check the recent changes. [00:43:54] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges [00:45:02] And he’s ignoring the RfR [00:45:21] goddamn Doug [00:45:36] [discord] I'm sure he's aware of it, but right now, he's investigating on the `polcompballwiki`. [00:45:45] Please just make this easier on everyone and just resign [00:46:05] forget polcompball, let raidarr handle it [00:46:11] [discord] BrandonWM You're not really helping this situation when you put that much force on him. [00:46:28] …he’s not even here [00:46:34] ^ Lets not pressure him please [00:46:37] :facepalm: [00:46:47] Thank you MacFan4000. [00:46:52] actually dmehus has been on IRC the whole time [00:47:02] Online? [00:47:05] as well as on discord as @Doug [00:47:18] No I mean is he active and has he seen this [00:47:21] BrandomWM Obviously, if you look at who's online. [00:47:26] he can see the whole conversation either way as the channel is logged [00:47:35] I've always supported Doug throughout the years, but I can't support it anymore, not with the recent super votes. If Doug remains, I'm resigning from SRE and all community positions this time, unless of course a truly satisfactory outcome can be reached. [00:48:04] CosmicAlpha|AWAY So have I, but it's disappointing that he resorted to supervoting. [00:48:16] DarkMatterMan4500 yeah that whole “don’t pressure” doesn’t apply anymore [00:48:52] He’s affecting everyone else [00:48:53] BrandonWM Then why were you talking like that when you forced dmehus to resign? -_- [00:49:02] He didn’t resign [00:49:03] BrandonWM: yes it certainly does [00:49:17] MacFan4000: Well for me sure [00:49:30] not for anyone else, but at the least Omega’s response is warranted [00:49:56] BrandonWM Just cut it out. You're making it extremely harder for everyone else when you alienate his well known associates he's been working alongside him. Just, stop it. [00:50:34] yes, and if it came down to that, we certainly would be sad to see CosmicAlpha go as they are really an integral part of the MW team [00:50:44] ^ [00:50:59] darkmatterman450: you think I alienated Omega? [00:51:02] or anyone else? [00:51:07] hell no [00:51:30] I wouldn’t ever do that to Omega, or to Dmehus [00:51:35] Apparently, you are. You're pretty much forcing the narrative of Doug resigning. [00:51:41] You're doing it right now. [00:52:23] I think Dmehus should resign, yeah [00:52:26] Even though that's not what's happening. But let's just drop this whole thing before I lose my sanity. [00:52:52] Yes, lets please drop the argument [00:53:04] Thanks once again MacFan4000. [00:53:42] Okay then [00:55:12] Thank you. [00:55:33] Now, I'll be working on a video where I poke fun of a character from Vyond. [00:56:03] Lol [00:56:23] That seems fun [00:57:18] Let's just take this to the off-topic page, seeing as we're going off-topic now. [00:57:49] You available for a sec? [02:30:40] [discord] Right, let me be clear about this, I don’t care what side you are on. You are entitled to an opinion and are allowed to discuss the topic, but NO ONE should be bringing them down as a person, discussions should remain respectful and free from “rumors”. Thanks. [03:08:49] Just note the twenty vote threshold has now been satisfied [03:11:46] and so technically the revocation requirements have now been met, but sounds like it will stay open a full week [03:14:40] bye ozone [03:14:45] .op [03:14:45] Attempting to OP... [04:43:18] Zppix: I’m aware I went too far. [04:44:25] Also why were all these bots devoiced [05:08:06] They were only voiced because of ozone, and never really should have been voiced [05:08:58] Who is ozone? [05:09:01] A bot [05:09:09] Reception123: Can you update IRC permissions? [05:09:38] IRC perms meaning Doug? [05:11:10] Wow, I really did not like that closing statement [05:11:21] It was basically just "I did nothing wrong but I'll resign so I can run again later" [05:11:51] I'm not sure what the position is for T&S responders on IRC since Owen isn't on IRC and Doug has always been Steward. I'll discuss with others ops and see what they think. [05:12:07] Doug is also a meta sysop right [05:12:14] so he should be v/o here anyway [05:13:20] Reception123 : I don't think there is one [05:13:35] Owen is on IRC if you ask him to join IRC, but doesn't idle [05:15:08] BrandonWM: Meta sysops wouldn't be voiced in #miraheze no as this is a global channel [05:15:25] Reception123: there is none I don't think, since board is not voiced here, I think T&S is the same, is it not? [05:16:17] CosmicAlpha: well there's no board members here that aren't also other things. And iirc Robla was voiced here when he was on the board [05:16:34] so that's why I'm a bit uncertain since T&S is technically a MH Limited department like SRE is [05:16:51] Reception123: when robla was here, they weren't voiced when they were a board member. [05:17:19] At least I don't remember them being. [05:17:25] Maybe I remember wrong. [05:19:12] let me see if I Can find out [05:19:14] *can [05:19:27] There is no precedent for T&S here, so yeah it could go either way. [05:21:29] Reception123: Though Agent Isai is voiced… [05:21:39] I dont think SRE should have op powers but it happened anyway [05:21:41] am I missing something [05:21:45] Agent Isai is SRE [05:21:49] say what [05:22:01] Indeed, I am Community Engagement Specialist with SRE :) [05:22:16] It was part of an attempt to make sysadmins less power focused but then ended up doing nothing other than changing the name [05:22:27] Ohhhh okay my bas [05:22:43] Honestly I’d still voice T/S [05:22:45] That's not true, the renaming was not "an attempt to make sysadmins less power focused" [05:22:46] I wouldn't [05:22:51] What was it theN/ [05:23:17] They’re a function of the board, and the board should be able to access whatever, whenever. [05:24:28] Uhhh.... that seems like a bad idea [05:24:34] Why [05:25:08] `whatever, whenever.` [05:25:11] Why wouldn't it be? [05:29:09] They’re literally the board [05:29:16] they oversee all of Miraheze [05:29:30] if they don’t want something to happen, it doesn’t happen [05:29:43] it’s a corporate hierarchy [05:30:24] I have no idea what you're talking about but that is nothing close to T&S's responsibilities [05:30:26] Read this https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Trust_and_Safety [05:34:03] I’m aware [05:34:13] I’m saying the board should be voiced [05:34:28] and as functionaries of the board, T/S should be voiced [05:38:03] I don't think we necessarily to be auto-voiced, but I do think should have permissions, or at the least the ability to add permissions, to perform certain functions (i.e., to change the topic) [05:40:58] That makes sense [05:48:38] Also would like to congratulate Reception123 and Agent Isai for their nominations on Requests for Stewardship! [05:48:47] Everyone here, please vote [05:49:02] Speak your opinion [05:51:14] thanks BrandonWM [05:53:59] Are you trying to nominate them over IRC???? [05:54:04] If it's on wiki I missed it [05:54:33] [discord] It is [05:54:53] OK. [05:54:58] On-wiki [05:55:09] Isai nominated themselves and reception [05:56:10] Reception123: I intend to fully support your request. It’s been a long time coming, glad that you’ll finally be a steward. [05:56:27] Thanks BrandonWM [05:56:29] You're very optimistic [06:04:09] Naleksuh: I try and be a cheery person lol [06:04:21] Also I have a hard time seeing anyone opposing Reception [06:04:45] They’ve earned it 10x over [06:05:18] Both supports podted [06:05:33] s/podted/posted [06:05:33] BrandonWM meant to say: Both supports posted [06:07:38] Though I’d like to apologize to Agent and Dmehus for all the necessary patrolling of my revisions [06:07:50] no worries [06:08:06] Soon enough I’ll have the autopatrolled flag and it’ll be done but it’s annoying so I’m sorry about that 😂 [06:08:57] And I make mistakes a lot so then there are more revisions…lmao [06:23:09] Right and as soon as I say that there won’t be any oppositions… [06:23:56] Look, I didn't want to start drama over IRC but I *did* notice the "glad that you’ll finally be a steward" even though it was just nommed [06:24:54] Are you saying Reception isn’t qualified? [06:25:11] As Isai pointed out he was the 11th user ever registered on the platform [06:27:02] I don't think there's a need to dispute people's opposes here and cause more drama. If people want to oppose that's their choice and we should respect it. [06:28:07] Yeah I know I’m just confused about the reasoning for the oppose [06:28:32] If they want to oppose in the end that’s their right and I will respect it, but I do want to ask why, [06:31:43] Naleksuh: I’m not going to press you. If you don’t wish to share that is of course your right and I’ll respect it, just like I’ll respect your right to oppose the RfS. I’ll ask you to reconsider, as Reception123 is an incredible helper to the community, but in the end as stated I will respect your decision. [06:34:33] Quick question re Reception123: I don’t suppose it’d be possible on some wikis to request beta versions of MW 1.39? [06:34:49] BrandonWM: unfortunately not, there aren't enough resources for that [06:35:01] Ah okay, no worries [06:35:05] Is betaheze running 39? [06:35:11] no, not yet [06:35:21] When’s that supposed to occur? [06:35:22] only when the upgrade approaches [06:35:37] Generally releases happen every 6 months so I would guess early December [06:35:39] Naleksuh: by betaheze I assume you mean crate3 [06:35:44] crate3? [06:35:54] October/November drop for MW 1.39 [06:36:07] Isn’t that the name of the beta wiki? [06:36:08] I'd say probably around September though I don't know yet [06:36:10] test3 was replaced by a whole new sub-farm called Betaheze [06:36:37] Oh okay [06:36:39] It's basically an exact clone of Miraheze, except that the central wiki instead of being called `metawiki` is called `betawiki`...I have been asking for that to be changed for a while now [06:36:41] didnt know that [06:36:58] oh that’s hilarious…also easy for typos though [06:37:15] who has access? [06:37:22] I thought it was just named after Betaheze but I'm just now realiziing it's only one letter off XD [06:37:27] Naleksuh: it might be moved to metawikibeta eventually. [06:37:41] CosmicAlpha : Wait, you're not using the same DB servers are you???? [06:37:54] It should be called `metawiki`, and just on an entirely seperate machine [06:38:16] Naleksuh: yes it is same db servers. We don't have resources for others. [06:38:32] OK, that's another change I will ask for [06:38:37] Fine, I will donate to Miraheze D: [06:38:56] Why’s that a bad thing 😂 [06:40:10] Well, I could also use my money to not starve, but then again I really want the DB names to be the same [06:40:18] I guess I can just eat my leg instead [06:40:43] Um [06:40:50] Beta will run 1.39 from as soon as we can after the branch cut BrandonWM [06:40:57] wtf do you want to me to answer to that 😂🤣😅 [06:40:57] Which is about 9 weeks prior to release [06:41:07] Oh it's asking for pounds :| [06:41:15] Beta is under resourced [06:41:19] Significantly [06:41:31] RhinosF1: Gotcha. I’m assuming Betaheze is an isolated testing environment right [06:41:43] No, it's not isolated per above conversation with CosmicAlpha [06:41:48] BrandonWM: as isolated as we can afford [06:41:50] I am donating so they can make it actually isolated [06:41:52] Which is not very [06:42:21] underresourced? How much would you need to completely isolate it + wishlist for beta from SRE [06:42:31] All of that total, just a rough estimate [06:43:14] Donations would be prioritized on server upgrades that would make wikis load faster/less 503 errors as that's what the community wants based on the survey responses I've seen so far [06:43:31] Yeah I will say there are a lot of 503 errors [06:43:35] and I think it's reasonable to give that priority rather than Beta [06:43:42] Ofc [06:43:49] what is that rough estimate though [06:44:41] All things SRE would like in total [06:45:02] [[Fundraiser]] [06:45:02] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Fundraiser [06:46:22] How close are you to the goal? [06:47:46] Actually forget that question probably protected by an NDA [06:48:13] so 3840 + 400…I’m assuming close to 5000 pounds? [06:48:37] BrandonWM: how much we've raised and need is actually at the top of the page [06:48:47] Oh what [06:48:54] howd I miss that [06:49:12] > Raised: £2275.62 of £5120 [06:49:14] Agent: is that updated for all platforms raised also? [06:49:38] CosmicAlpha: we're still waiting on PayPal stats but it should be up to date [06:50:16] Don’t y’all need another 1K pounds for basic survival goal? [06:50:28] We do [06:50:43] We are however hoping we get big donations soon from very generous benefactors [06:50:43] and remaining sum is 3.5K dollars total to fund entirely…. [06:50:57] Agent: That should go a long way towards helping [06:51:07] But yeah, we're a long way from getting to our goal [06:51:17] Would like to see connection speeds boosted tbh, it’s really slow trying to load a wiki [06:51:23] So any little donation is greatly appreciated [06:51:31] let me see what I can do [06:51:36] BrandonWM: recent slowness might not actually be our fault [06:51:44] It's possibly an upstream provider issue [06:51:51] Oh huh [06:51:55] We have an other issue with networking upstream right now also. [06:52:05] Only that provider or all of them [06:52:07] I donated [06:52:13] Thanks! [06:53:18] Nice! [06:53:29] Okay let me see what I can do [06:54:53] One of my PayPal accounts wouldn't let me send using a bank transfer and the other one put on some fees and foreign exchange [06:55:08] Looks like PayPal took almost a 10% cut [06:55:37] 😶 [06:55:42] that’s ridiculous [06:56:07] 5% max, don’t they have enough tens of billions of dollars to mess with? [06:57:52] Sad [06:58:34] Also would any of you happen to be admins on loginwiki [06:59:17] I tried to edit User:FirstNoelle and User:ApexTest as socks of Apex, but was prevented from doing so by the abuse filter [06:59:54] There are no local admins for loginwiki, Stewards act as local sysops [07:00:25] But I would say that there's no need to tag FirstNoelle as an Apex sock [07:00:26] Oh okay [07:00:47] shouldnt Doug be de-opped in #miraheze-feed-login [07:01:07] Anyway okay I don’t need to [07:01:36] Agent : There really shouldn't be editing on loginwiki at all [07:01:45] It was just a bad descision made in 2015 that stuck [07:02:43] The only editing that happens on there is editing global user pages [07:03:03] loginwiki could probably be merged into metawiki tbh. [07:06:11] Agent : Yes, and that shouldn't be there either [07:06:42] CosmicAlpha : Yeah, Wikimedia uses Meta for global user pages, though some people say Meta's user page should be just for Meta. One idea floated around was a wiki just for global user pages? (would be nonsensical on Wikimedia, but Miraheze hosts plenty of single-purpose wikis) [07:07:54] That’s loginwiki looks like [07:08:12] though I’d support migration of global user pages from loginwiki to metawiki [07:08:26] That's not what a login wiki is supposed to be for. It's supposed to be a wiki for conducting log-ins, generally with almost no extensions and editing locked off [07:08:47] Also, all other global stuff takes place on Meta [07:10:16] Loginwiki should be renamed and used solely for GlobalUserPage I think. The term loginwiki doesn't much make sense for what it's used for. [07:10:44] But then the wiki used for logging in would be misnamed [07:11:05] The term loginwiki does make sense for what it's supposed to be used for. There's just a problem of it being used for other things as well [07:11:30] I guess you could rename it homewiki [07:11:33] or globalwiki [07:11:49] or accesswiki [07:11:52] idk [07:12:10] That wouldn't solve the issue of all global things being on Meta except for global user pages. Those could be on Meta but then there is the Meta user page problem [07:12:15] s[_] complained *a lot* about that [07:16:50] CosmicAlpha: It’s possible to move the hub of global user pages to Meta right? [07:17:17] Do you mean moving the database entries or just creating the pages on Meta and deleting them on login? [07:17:37] Personally, I would support importing the pages to Meta then resetting loginwiki's database. This abuse of login wikis was always prone to breaking somethin [07:17:38] g [07:17:46] YeH [07:17:50] import [07:18:03] we don’t want people who’ve worked hard on their pages to start from scratch [07:18:15] I am assuming it’s possible right [07:18:19] I meant do you want cut-and-paste addition or moving the database? [07:18:40] db probably [07:18:53] Whatever, it doesn't really matter. This would need consensus onwiki [07:19:35] It's almost impossible to do due to conflicts with existing user pages on meta. [07:20:01] I’ll author an RfC with a few different proposals [07:20:50] Probably move to meta, rename loginwiki, move to different wiki (create new) and restrict editing on loginwiki [07:21:04] Let me know if you have ideas [07:23:11] Why move to Metathen move again [07:23:18] Oh, those are seperate proposals [07:23:35] BrandonWM : My proposal would be to move them to a global user page wiki, then reset the database for loginwiki [07:24:00] Okay I can add that on to the RfC when I create it tomorrow [07:24:06] But that's an issue for tomorrow, it is 12:24 AM here so going to bed [07:24:10] Ah, same [07:24:30] Yep it’s 12:24 here as well in LA [07:24:44] Im about to crash, will head out for the night [07:24:47] Cheers, all [08:44:19] I serioulsly want Reception123 to become a steward, but at the same time I seriously don't want him to. [08:44:48] I'm just having pity though, I feel the "work" will be too much for him [08:46:20] someone's mental health is very important, Imagine being an SRE, Steward, and add RL issues to it, lol [09:52:31] [discord] Wouldn't that create problems though? [09:52:52] [discord] Referring to merging the `loginwiki` into `metawiki`. [10:35:40] [discord] I don't think it would create many issues, but I like the separation of meta wiki and login from a user page perspective [10:36:39] [discord] I suppose from a CU perspective I could do it with meta the same way I do it with login; login is the 'quick and dirty' typically in dealing with voa accounts/sockpuppetry, and inevitably I end up with the hat for longish periods because a) there's just that much going on or b) I forget in the given day and when I get to it oh look, an lta's back [10:55:11] I don't understand why Naleksuh is asking Agent to step down from SRE if Agent gets Steward. [10:55:38] [discord] I think the entire 'sre conflict with stewards' is bollocks [10:55:59] [discord] nobody took issue with that for both void and john and both have a far more effective technical range with inclusion in SRE to deal with issues [10:56:36] [discord] the only issue I see there is if SRE workload multiplies to the degree that the steward-sre's may not be able to do community as much (ie, an upgrade), but from what I see that would be negligible [10:56:59] [discord] I think it's an entirely artificial issue tbh, not long ago we were having extreme issues with inter-department cohesion because we're too itemized in roles with strict boundaries [10:57:16] [discord] I think both are perfectly competent enough to distinguish between acting as either/or r ole [10:57:21] [discord] I think both are perfectly competent enough to distinguish between acting as either/or role (edited) [11:03:36] I agree. I see no general issue with someone holding both, and both Agent and Reception123 in particular are very competent [11:06:09] [discord] I would be extremely pleased to have them both working side to side [11:07:51] [discord] another big thing is that both communicate with other volunteers very well making issue coordination quite easy (not going to wait a week to advance a footstep on something) and both are fairly strong/prominent in community roles as well, and on top of that I believe in their ability to talk with each other/me if there is any confusion - which serves my dream of a steward team that can act in unity more often and can inte [11:22:27] [discord] How to delete my wiki? [11:24:36] [discord] which wiki [11:25:18] [discord] forgot ping^ [11:26:06] [discord] I would like to request for One Future Unified Team wiki to be deleted. Tq [11:28:33] [discord] :DoneMH: [11:29:46] [discord] Oh cool. That fast! [11:29:50] [discord] Thanks [11:30:39] [discord] yeah, pretty trivial [11:44:14] [discord] BrandonWM I knew FirstNoelle was ApexAgunomu all along because of the familiarity of the editing and username(s) she has chosen in the past. [13:03:40] .devoice dmehus [13:03:40] Attempting to OP... [13:09:14] Minor update for all interested on the RfS [13:09:37] Reception123 has a 9/1/0 ratio, with a total of 10 users so far [13:10:02] Agent Isai has a 7/0/0 ratio, with a total of 7 users so far [13:44:50] Naleksuh: Created the RfC [13:46:36] Anyone can add a proposal, and I’m permitted to do this as the RfC has the endorsement of Naleksuh for proposal #2 so that satisfies the Meta restriction [13:51:11] BrandonWM: What RfC you talk about? [13:52:30] The new one [13:52:36] alternatives to loginwoki [13:54:56] I nominated it for deletion because it has no meanful content. [13:55:02] Cigaryno: I’m sorry, what are you doing [13:55:13] I’m about to add meaningful content [13:55:20] it’s a draft RfC for a reason [14:01:50] I think it would be better if draft RfCs are done in userspaces [14:01:52] to prevent issues like this [14:02:49] but either way, the draft is valid and there's no reason to request deletion [14:13:22] Reception123: In the future I can move it to my own userspace [14:14:11] Also the draft is done, feel free to write your comments/questions in the Pre-Launch Comments section [14:14:15] open to anyone [14:15:55] Would appreciate feedback [14:18:28] BrandonWM: also, I personally think it's a good idea to not allow votes when drafts are going on [14:18:33] as it really muddles the whole draft idea [14:18:53] either it's a draft or it's open, you can't have people voting in drafts and commenting on whether they support or oppose the proposals [14:27:45] Reception123: The pre-open comments aren’t meant for voting. They’re meant to give feedback to the user to improve the RfC before opening. [14:28:09] I can take it out and open the RfC though l [14:31:13] Done, opened [19:27:00] So I see personal attacks are back on the table [19:27:25] What personal attacks? [19:27:39] Saying that I didn't read proposal 1 is somewhat correct. A bit blunt, but not a personal attack [19:28:04] Oh, I see now :| [19:28:15] it was definitely not a personal attack [19:28:34] I wouldn't have been that blunt but Naleksuh accused me of not reading something days before so I thought it was fair to respond in a similar way [19:28:47] I think they meant the "I'll paraphrase it for you, so you won't resort to incompetent behavior or any nonsensical comebacks against my reasons for opposing this utterly ridiculous RfC that will go nowhere." [19:29:11] And for the record, I didn't read it, so you were correct [19:29:30] I see. I think there was just a misunderstanding then as well as your reply to my oppose for Proposal 1 [19:29:47] I simply meant WMF also deals with logins via loginwiki, I never mentioned GUP but opposed simply because of the idea of deleting loginwiki [19:29:57] Yeah I didn't realize that [19:30:04] I added a new proposal 1 ; to check that out? [19:30:47] I see, that makes more sense. I'm not sure if I'll vote yet but my strong opinion really was about deleting loginwiki, I don't have a particularly strong one about GUPs [19:31:08] I mean to be fair, as long as loginwiki is being used for global user pages there's no real reason why logins shouldn't be conducted via Meta [19:31:33] The whole point of a dedicated login wiki and not doing logins via Meta is to have a wiki that just does logins and nothing else, usually with very few extensions [19:31:33] But Miraheze also uses the login wiki for global user pages, defeating the purpose of even having one [19:32:01] I think the idea was that people wanted to have local pages for Meta users but also ones for people to see outside of Meta [19:32:10] but again, I don't really mind much [19:32:17] You can just use includeonly and noinclude tags for that [19:32:22] To note GUP was originally on meta, but in the end there was strong opposition to it being it there and so that resulted in it being moved [19:32:22] Or have a dedicated global user page wiki [19:32:34] oh was it? I don't remember that [19:32:38] I guess it was short lived then [19:33:05] MacFan4000 : I guess, but I don't think it should have been moved to login because then that defeats the purpose of a login wiki, it should be locked read only [19:33:09] I was one of the people who originally pushed to have it installed [19:33:15] I wish I had been around in 2015 when all this was being set up, but I wasn't. I joined in 2019 [19:33:47] well what exactly is the issue with having an additional limited purpose to loginwiki? [19:33:57] I mean if we wanted we could have a separate wiki but that feels too much for some user pages [19:34:08] Ideally there should be no editing on loginwiki [19:34:14] Also there should be very few extensions if not none [19:34:23] to my knowledge there's not many? [19:34:25] Well, you need some like Centralauth [19:34:27] (extensions that is) [19:34:30] There's abuse filter. No reason for that [19:34:42] that's globally installed [19:34:56] Yikes [19:34:57] Loginwiki on Wikimedia is minimal [19:35:01] but obviously it wouldn't need to be active if GUP would be on Meta and editing would be banned on login [19:35:16] I think the best idea is a global user page wiki [19:35:23] Also reset the database for login as most of the damage is done by now [19:35:50] Reception123: not you [19:35:53] but what's the rationale behind not having GUPs on loginwiki? [19:35:57] youre all good [19:35:57] what's the downsides to that? [19:36:01] Because there shouldn't be editing on Login wiki [19:36:08] Also because it's a misleading name [19:36:08] but why? [19:36:25]