[00:00:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> The request exists.
[00:00:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> I can see it.
[00:01:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> When creating the ImportDump extension, it looks like I forgot to include requesters to have access to their private requests lol. I'll fix later @asph//ellie.
[00:01:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <asph//ellie> i created two different import requests for the same wiki as i thought the first one didnt send correctly
[00:02:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <asph//ellie> but they are the same so just ignore the second one
[00:24:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> You should have access to the request here in a second, deploying a fix to make sure requesters have access to their own requests.
[00:45:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> @asph//ellie you should be able to view the request now.
[00:46:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <asph//ellie> yes i can view it now
[00:50:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Great!
[02:05:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> So I’m trying to import the template “infobox medical condition” for my personal wiki from Wikipedia and… I have no idea what I did wrong. I imported all the modules using wikipedias export tool as well as the template so I have no idea what I did wrong.
[02:06:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071250233473908756/Screenshot_from_2023-02-03_20-59-33.png
[02:07:31] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Can anyone help me out? I am very new to miraheze wiki making btw
[02:10:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> That means you're missing several modules that are needed for the template to work.
[02:12:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Your have four distinct types of error that I can see.
[02:12:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 
[02:12:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 1. You need to enable the TemplateStyles extension
[02:12:27] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 
[02:12:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 2. You need to enable the wiki base client and repository extensions
[02:12:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 
[02:12:31] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 3. You are missing the if preview module and will need to copy that over
[02:12:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 
[02:12:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> 4. You are missing the SDcat template and will need to copy that over
[02:12:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> also you need to enable the templatestyles parser hook in managewiki
[02:12:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yea
[02:12:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Ah ok ok
[02:13:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Will do all of this
[02:13:22] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Thank you 👍
[02:13:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> If I have any more problems I’ll ask y’all again
[02:14:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> No worries. This is the thing w/ wikipedia templates, they tend to have lots of extra requirements.
[02:14:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> We're happy to help as needed
[02:22:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Ok that fixed all the problems except one
[02:22:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> whats the remaining problem
[02:23:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Lemme screenshot it
[02:23:27] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071254631621079200/Screenshot_from_2023-02-03_21-23-04.png
[02:24:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Sorry if I’m probably bugging y’all with really basic issues like not having all the basic settings checked and modules imported for Wikipedia style templates
[02:24:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> So this one is tackled by copying the full name of that styles.css page, the navigating to Special:ChangeContentModel
[02:25:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> On that particular special page, you'll need to paste in the name, change it to sanitized CSS and save
[02:27:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> So I copy and paste the module name into the page title text box?
[02:28:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Yep, that should get you to a new prompt w current and new content models.
[02:29:03] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Ah ok ok
[02:29:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Essentially what you're trying to do is get the styles.css page to be treated as CSS code instead of generic text
[02:29:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> That'll make formatting apply properly
[02:31:38] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Alright! That was everything!
[02:31:42] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Thank you so much!
[02:38:40] <Naleksuh>	 @prettyraddude Oh you are using Linux Mint? Me too! :DDD
[02:38:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Yeah it’s great
[02:39:36] <Naleksuh>	 I thought it was a chromebook until I noticed my own taskbar looked just like yours
[02:39:38] <Naleksuh>	 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/yHUmV77E/image.png
[02:39:42] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Tho I am thinking of switching to Nobara (An improved Fedora distro) in a couple months once my college computer classes are over for the semester
[02:39:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.
[02:39:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> 
[02:39:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.
[02:39:50] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> 
[02:39:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is normally used in combination with the GN
[02:40:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Richard Stallman is kinda an asshole
[02:40:10] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Dyno> @prettyraddude Watch your language.
[02:40:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Lol
[02:40:15] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> Sorry
[02:40:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> 1984
[02:40:27] <Naleksuh>	 Excuse me, what is Dyno doing?
[02:40:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> censoring bad words
[02:40:35] <Naleksuh>	 No rule in the COC against saying asshole
[02:40:37] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> this reminds me of George Orwell's classic dystopian novel, 1984
[02:40:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> apparently someone enabled the built-in swear word list
[02:40:51] <Naleksuh>	 Actually, what is it doing on the server in general
[02:40:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <prettyraddude> “I’ve never read it but it reminds me of it”
[02:41:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> warnings, bans, mutes, kicks, etc.
[02:41:10] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> lol yeah
[02:41:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> I actually finished reading it a few days ago
[02:41:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> even though I always joked about it heh
[02:41:37] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Dyno's fishy behavior makes me think they're being kind of a bass
[02:41:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Darn. Ah well, it was worth a shot.
[02:42:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> lmao
[02:42:19] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Watch your language.
[02:42:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Human oversight strikes again, thanks Agent. 🙃
[02:43:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Cabra> Watch yo profanity this is a Christian wiki server 😝
[02:43:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> lmao
[02:43:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> this is a family server
[02:45:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071260093590536313/image0.gif
[02:45:27] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Veering steeply off-topic at this point.
[02:45:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yea true
[02:46:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> #ID:615786602454581249 is that way.
[02:59:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Orduin> Might be worth excluding dyno from the relay, I don't think it sends any messages that would be useful for IRC folks
[03:01:03] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> probably
[03:03:17] <Naleksuh>	 @Orduin You are part of SRE yeah?
[03:04:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> they are
[06:25:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> this is a default infobox isn't it?
[06:25:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071315632815095838/image.png
[06:27:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> That's a Wikipedia infobox, yes
[06:34:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> yea i know, how do i import it into my wiki i've been tryna figure that out
[06:36:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> It's very hard to depending on the infobox so we generally discourage it strongly but if you want to import a Wikipedia infobox then use Special:Export on Wikipedia (make sure to click the "Include templates" box) and then once you have XML file, use Special:Import to import it
[07:47:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> ok makes sense
[07:49:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> import on miraheze or wha
[07:50:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> permission error rip
[08:53:01] * xtexChooser[m] uploaded an image: (153KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/v3/download/sakura.ci/qFaZceuwduibTUKIDtkmxRcc/image.png >
[08:53:04] <xtexChooser[m]>	 Can you open the phabritcator?
[09:37:11] <RhinosF1>	 xtexChooser[m]: looking
[09:37:48] <RhinosF1>	 I’ve alerted people
[09:37:55] <RhinosF1>	 Apologies for the downtime
[09:39:29] <Reception123>	 Sorry about that. Fixed.
[10:06:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> What are some cool wiki CSS?
[11:44:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> We can add custom CSS in the main page for example, organizing the layout of the content.
[11:44:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> Adding colors, etc.
[11:44:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> What are the limitations?
[12:07:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Anything possible in CSS, you can do on your wiki (except maybe on some special pages). Some cool stuff here: https://1stwebdesigner.com/css-effects/
[12:07:18] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] 150 Amazing Examples of CSS Animation & Effects | 1stwebdesigner.com
[12:21:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> https://grayravens.com/
[12:21:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> This wiki probably have most of their previous skin elements replaced by CSS
[12:21:08] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] GRAY RAVENS - GRAY RAVENS | grayravens.com
[12:27:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> wow, doesnt look anything like mediawiki
[12:29:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> It's super cool
[12:29:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> However for grayravens.com, I wonder why it is quite low
[12:30:05] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> No idea
[12:30:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> It's not about php or mediawiki stack?
[12:31:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> what do you mean quite low?
[12:31:37] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> looks all right to me
[12:31:45] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> Definitely not based on php or some sort of external mediawiki extensions
[12:32:27] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> Must have some sort of crazy lvl of coding like the Citizen skin
[12:33:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> here it is with most of the custom css gone:
[12:33:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071408116681408672/image.png
[12:33:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> Yea, without CSS, it just base Timeless skin
[13:03:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <OatCookies> Goodnight!
[13:40:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> "Putting All Your Eggs in One Basket"
[13:40:10] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> 
[13:40:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> Ah the age-old adage that's been passed down from generation to generation warning us against taking too big of a risk. "Putting all your eggs in one basket" they say "you're bound to get burned." But is that really the case? Let's take a closer look at this fowl matter.
[13:40:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> 
[13:40:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> Imagine for a moment that you have a basket of eggs. Not just any eggs, mind you. These are rare and prized heirloom eggs, with a unique flavor that's been passed down through the generations. You've worked hard to gather them and now they're all in one basket. So, what do you do? Do you spread them out just to be safe? Or do you take a leap of faith and keep them all together?
[13:40:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> 
[13:40:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> If you're anything like me, you'll choose the latter. After all, why would you want to spread your wealth out when you can concentrate it all in one place? The key, of course, is to find the right basket. It must be sturdy, reliable, and most importantly, able to handle the weight of all those eggs.
[13:40:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> 
[13:40:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> But what happens if that basket should happen to fail? Well, my friends, that's where the real fun begins. Because when you've got all your eggs in one basket, you're forced to think on your feet. You'll scramble, you'll improvise and, if necessary, you'll fry up an omelet of epic proportions.
[13:40:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> 
[13:40:22] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <coofl> In short, putting all your eggs in one basket is a bold and daring move. But it's also one that pays off in the end with a rich and satisfying reward that's well worth the risk. So go ahead, take the leap. And remember, when it comes to life's biggest gambles, sometimes it's best to put all your eggs in one basket.
[13:51:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Cabra> Gets told by Void to not post this crap here, does it again the very next day. Brave if nothing else :BanCatMH:
[13:56:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Reception123> Banned.
[13:58:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <devian> lawd whatd i miss
[13:59:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Cabra> Just a weird self-promo essay. Nothing *too* fun.
[13:59:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <devian> awh
[13:59:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <devian> thats boring
[14:52:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Fluent Aero> Ummm I want to speak Chinese
[14:53:50] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Fluent Aero> I can't read English！！！
[14:55:03] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Fluent Aero> Does everyone know a software named QQ ?
[14:56:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Fluent Aero> I want to set up a QQ bot to （追踪wiki上的更改）
[16:20:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> why you need a QQ bot?
[16:20:45] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> you want something regarding wikis on Miraheze?
[16:21:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> what that bot has to do?
[16:22:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> and as far as I know QQ is strictly limited to users in China, so don't expect a lot of help from people outside
[16:24:05] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> maybe Winston might help, but idk how active he is right now
[16:26:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> I don't use Tencent QQ, so probably can't have help with it.
[16:26:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> ah rip
[16:26:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> and hi
[16:34:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> (I might not check messages in this Discord server; mention (ping) me instead.)
[16:35:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> The user wants a bot for RecentChanges feed.
[16:37:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> oh
[16:37:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:RecentChanges
[16:37:13] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] API:RecentChanges - MediaWiki | www.mediawiki.org
[16:37:22] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> > Winston don't kill my wiki OwO
[16:37:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> Bruh. Won't do that.
[16:37:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> You know, there are always complaints about ads on Fandom.
[16:38:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> Miraheze uses standard API for most of Mediawiki stuffs so just use Mediawiki page as references
[16:38:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> (Looks like I only missed 1 message from LuciferianThomas.)
[16:40:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> wow i just looked at that
[16:40:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://grayravens.com/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css
[16:40:03] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] GRAY RAVENS | grayravens.com
[16:40:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> thats amazing
[16:42:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> ~~I worked with them for a while back when we are at Fandom~~
[16:42:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> And then UCP happened and fcked up customizations, that's how that site is destined to use Miraheze
[16:42:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <max20091> 😂
[16:43:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> lmaoo yea makes sense
[16:43:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> well good work
[16:54:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> I love that https://codepen.io/takaneichinose/pen/wvGwXQJ
[16:54:23] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Just a moment... | codepen.io
[16:55:31] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> wow yea
[16:55:33] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> thats pretty cool
[16:55:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> those buttons too
[16:55:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> <https://codepen.io/ahart814/pen/yLNMZGa>
[16:55:59] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Just a moment... | codepen.io
[16:56:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> <https://codepen.io/vladracoare/pen/jOPmMap>
[16:56:00] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Just a moment... | codepen.io
[16:56:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> iWiki
[16:56:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <DeletedUser> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071474458386243584/image.png
[16:57:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> hmm
[16:57:19] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yea
[16:57:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> these kind of styled buttons give me an idea
[16:57:45] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> might do something similar on the home page for genshinimpact.miraheze.org to something iconic for genshin impact
[17:05:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> ive made many attempts to reverse engineer genshin impact some more successful than others and i still have some source code and assets for genshin on my pc
[17:07:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> so it shouldnt be too hard
[17:07:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> anyway brb
[17:10:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Yeah it is cool. Remember that some of these need javascript too. Which you can also use, but it wont work for users with JS disabled
[17:12:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> But you could have css only buttons just for those users
[17:13:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <LuciferianThomas> Was joking, and what, you replied to a message that's half a year old?
[17:14:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> *Clean up*
[17:14:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Winston Sung> 《清理積壓》
[17:37:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> most of them dont need js
[17:38:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> is it possible to make the "donate to miraheze" link have rel=nofollow
[17:40:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> I'd assume that footer links inherit whatever value you've set
[17:43:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yea but theres no way to change what the donate to miraheze link links to or anything similar to that
[17:55:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> could someone with the appropriate permissions delete this spam on phabricator https://phabricator.miraheze.org/p/Vexi12/
[17:55:32] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] ♟ Vexi12 | phabricator.miraheze.org
[17:55:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071489246180954194/image.png
[18:00:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> oh yeah @max20091 imagine using namecheap instead of cloudflare for registration
[18:15:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> I think the first one they linked does
[18:15:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> no
[18:15:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> it doesnt
[18:15:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071494243882905682/image.png
[18:17:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Does html or css have for loops? Looking at the html tab
[18:18:37] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> no
[18:18:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> why would they need them
[18:18:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> idk if you understand how html and css work
[18:19:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Maybe i dont. What is the for loop in the html tab?
[18:19:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> oh
[18:20:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> pug is a custom html thing
[18:20:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> the compiled html is
[18:20:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> a lot longer
[18:20:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071495498114023515/hell.html
[18:22:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Oh interesting
[18:22:15] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yes lmao
[18:22:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Never heard of pug
[18:22:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> ah
[18:22:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> well now you have heard of it
[18:22:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Lol yep
[18:22:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> if you want to hear of it more go duckduckgo it
[18:22:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> Yeah
[19:36:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> lmao
[19:42:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> There are a few reasons you'd want local HTML for loops, but they're pretty specialized use cases.
[19:43:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> since wikipedia says i dont have perms to import a wiki to another how do i get the infobox
[19:45:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> You don't import the infobox to Wikipedia, you import it to your own wiki
[19:47:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> ok so for example i got canada's page, how would i import it to my wiki
[19:47:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> like wheres the option
[19:48:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Go to Special:Import
[19:49:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i don't see that-
[19:49:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071517781650067476/image.png
[19:49:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> There's a link there called special pages.  But any time we reference things with that format, e.g. Special:pagename or MediaWiki:pagename, you can also go their directly.
[19:50:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Whenever you see we mention something like `Special:Blahblahblah`, we want you to put that in the search bar and press enter
[19:50:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> You can do so by the URL format of ```https://<yourwikidomain>.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:pagename```
[19:50:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> that too
[19:51:15] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> ok i got it
[19:51:19] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> what do i fill out
[19:52:22] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Should be straightforward
[19:52:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Attach the file you got from Wikipedia in the first field, in the Interwiki field put "wikipedia" and then press submit
[19:53:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> no pages to import :why:
[19:53:33] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i have the xml file
[20:23:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> how do i fix that'
[20:36:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> uh
[20:37:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> thats because you didnt put the right things in Special:Export on wikipedia
[20:37:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i.e., you put literally no pages
[20:38:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i have to put the page too?
[20:38:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> not just the xml for it?
[21:05:05] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> on Special:Export
[21:05:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> you have to put
[21:05:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> the pages you want to export
[21:05:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> oh
[21:08:19] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> where do i do that
[21:08:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071537711388819456/image.png
[21:08:31] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> on wikipedia
[21:08:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Export
[21:29:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> this is much more confusing then i thought jesus
[21:33:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> As an alternative, Portable Infobox has a learning curve but doesn't require importing anything.
[21:33:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> We use the same formatting as Fandom's version of Portable Infobox, so their help documents work too:
[21:33:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> PortableInfobox Main Documentation (fandom) - https://portability.fandom.com/wiki/Portable_Infoboxes
[21:33:57] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Portable Infoboxes | Portability Hub | Fandom | portability.fandom.com
[21:33:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Generalized Help Page with Examples (fandom) - https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Help:Infoboxes#Examples
[21:33:58] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Help:Infoboxes | Community Central | Fandom | community.fandom.com
[21:33:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <NotAracham> Additional Implementation Examples (fandom) - https://portability.fandom.com/wiki/Example_communities#Portable_Infoboxes
[21:34:00] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Example communities | Portability Hub | Fandom | portability.fandom.com
[21:35:42] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> export - you take something from another place, in this case Wikipedia
[21:35:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> import - you add stuff for yourself, that's gonna be your wiki
[21:36:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> a lot of newcomers think that's the easiest way but then they end up in error chasing loop
[21:36:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> so, PortableInfobox is much handier too
[21:48:12] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> yk what i think i'm just gonna use my friends infobox for now i can't comprehend this rn :ppenk:
[21:49:45] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> that dosent even work either ok 😭
[21:51:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Legroom> don't rush and take your time in getting into things
[21:52:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i'm not i just can't figure out how this works
[21:53:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> cause i don't code shit
[21:54:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i dont even have access to the visual editor either'
[22:03:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> honestly might move my wiki to ConWorlds since that'd prob make more sense anyways as it is a ConWorld
[22:03:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> Hey Indy, I recognize you from AHW
[22:03:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> are you the Sierra dude
[22:04:05] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> Indeed
[22:04:10] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> i thought so
[22:04:22] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> cause i was looking at sierras shit for symbol inspo 💀
[22:05:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> I'm flattered :wholesome:
[22:05:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> can you even make a subwiki on conworlds or is it just pages for countries how does it work
[22:05:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> You can port anything you'd like there
[22:05:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> It already has all the Wikipedia-styled infoboxes you'd like
[22:05:59] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> so is it like the alternate history wiki on fandom where its made of tiny series' of wikis
[22:06:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> yea thats why i was thinking abt moving it
[22:06:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> It hosts multiple projects, like althistory, sci-fi, and fantasy. We can take this to #ID:615786602454581249 if necessary
[22:06:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Centrist16> On the road but I can discuss further later!
[22:07:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> pog
[22:08:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> OH YOU CAN MAKE SUBWIKIS
[22:08:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071552830885855312/image.png
[22:08:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> noted
[22:10:27] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> alright just so i know can you manually delete wikis yourself or do they have to be requested
[22:14:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> You can request your wiki to be deleted on the Stewards' noticeboard: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Stewards%27_noticeboard
[22:14:06] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Stewards' noticeboard - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org
[22:16:59] <ugochimobi>	 @AgentIsai why is StopForumSpam enabled globally?
[22:17:15] <ugochimobi>	 Was there a feedback from community?
[22:25:32] <Naleksuh>	 Nope
[22:25:41] <Naleksuh>	 Just a decree
[22:29:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Original Authority> Is this the social image from WikiSEO?
[22:30:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> I don't know, I'm not familiar with that extension
[22:40:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Indy> noted
[22:43:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> it is the social image
[22:43:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> @Naleksuh @Ugochimbi: if you dont like it being enabled, you could bring it up with agent
[22:43:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> oops sorry didnt mean to ping the person here named ugo
[22:43:50] <Naleksuh>	 Never said I didn't like it being enabled, I said it was a decree
[22:43:55] <Naleksuh>	 It's better than reCAPTCHA
[22:44:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> ok well whatever
[22:47:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Original Authority> I don’t think it’s the automatically generated image I’m thinking of.
[22:47:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Yeah no, it's not
[22:48:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> it is an image that somebody manually set
[22:48:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> We can't do that as Restbase isn't enabled globally
[22:48:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> It requires a new server
[22:50:04] <ugochimobi>	 hmm?
[22:50:55] <ugochimobi>	 Oh, I get now, nevermind.
[22:55:21] <ugochimobi>	 The extension has a name so unrelated to it's function :)
[23:04:31] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <kimora> HII
[23:04:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <kimora> caps
[23:12:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> is codemirror supposed to work? seems to be installed and the settings are enabled, but i dont think its doing anything
[23:13:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> i mean codeeditor
[23:17:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Naleksuh: we don't use reCAPTCHA anymore, we stopped using it two days ago due to issues with users unable to verify, etc... we now use HCaptcha alongside StopForumSpam, StopForumSpam won't fully replace the captcha either.
[23:17:30] <Naleksuh>	 WHAT??????????????????????????????
[23:17:34] <Naleksuh>	 THE COMMUNITY OPPOSED HCAPTCHA
[23:17:38] <Naleksuh>	 IT HAS ALL THE SAME PROBLEMS AND MORE
[23:17:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> It works, unlike recaptcha.
[23:18:37] <Naleksuh>	 Stop defying community consensus
[23:22:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Original Authority> I’d argue community consensus does not veto security.
[23:23:03] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Naleksuh: There was never consensus against it, there was an RfC that only lost due to recaptcha v3 being new, SRE trying to get that working, and opposing it based only on continuing failed requests to move off ReCaptcha and no present reason to do so.
[23:23:04] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:23:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> SRE is not technically bound by community consensus, but we follow it as much as possible, getting feedback where relevant, but sometimes there is a need for us to take actions for the stability of the service.
[23:23:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:23:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> At the time we decided to change to hcaptcha it was because there was suddenly suddenly a surge dozens of reports via email, and even one on Phabricator that indicated recaptcha had massive failures, and users unable to use it. Additionally, it was non-functional for DiscussionTools, making it not work there.
[23:23:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <dimasupil> What’s the bot for daily deals?
[23:23:49] <Naleksuh>	 @CosmicAlpha No, there was a proposal to move to hCaptcha which failed due to hCaptcha having many of the same problems reCAPTCHA has
[23:23:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> im not sure if CodeEditor is supposed to show anything for people who cant edit the page, but can you look and see if there's anything obvious im missing, or if it works for you: https://comprehensibleinputwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Mediawiki:Common.css&action=edit
[23:23:57] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] View source for MediaWiki:Common.css - Comprehensible Input Wiki | comprehensibleinputwiki.org
[23:24:04] <Naleksuh>	 And yes, it's a bit concerning that the community said they didn't want hCaptcha but you added it anyway
[23:24:05] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> @Naleksuh: can you link to the proposal?
[23:24:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Replace_reCAPTCHA_with_another_CAPTCHA
[23:24:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Replace_reCAPTCHA_with_another_CAPTCHA_2
[23:24:45] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Requests for Comment/Replace reCAPTCHA with another CAPTCHA - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org
[23:24:47] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Requests for Comment/Replace reCAPTCHA with another CAPTCHA 2 - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org
[23:24:49] <Naleksuh>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Replace_reCAPTCHA_with_another_CAPTCHA_2#Proposal_2:_hCaptcha
[23:25:03] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> the testwiki community is about evenly split on whether or not to remove the custom domain but you think that given WP:NOTVOTE most of the !votes are invalid and therefore the actual consensus would be to remove the domain, so the same could apply here
[23:25:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> anyway i'll check the proposal
[23:26:37] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yeah i checked both proposals, i dont see anything better about hcaptcha than recaptcha
[23:27:13] <Naleksuh>	 The issue with hCaptcha or the issue with SRE adding hCaptcha?
[23:27:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i dont want a captcha at all
[23:27:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> Captchas are necessary to prevent spam
[23:27:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Naleksuh: like I said, our actions, for the stability of the service are sometimes needed. Our primary focus is providing a reliable service.  We are not bound by the RfCs, and even though usually request feedback, it is only advisement to SRE, we usually follow it, but sometimes we have to do actions to make the service reliable. ReCaptcha was completely unusable at the time it appered, and we had to make the change.
[23:27:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> let me type something
[23:28:16] <Naleksuh>	 @CosmicAlpha OK, so make the change to something that solves the problems with reCAPTCHA
[23:28:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> captchas as a whole are imo ineffective and privacy invasive, spambots are still getting around them constantly, funsilo.date as an example of an abandoned wiki (not on miraheze) is essentially receiving a spambot pseudo ddos attack because it has a bunch of dofollow links, i was trying to blank out the spam and was blocked by recaptcha, the few times where i did blank it out a spambot would get ahead of me and repla
[23:28:20] <Naleksuh>	 Instead of something almost identical
[23:28:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> literally just duckduckgo something like `captcha solving service`
[23:29:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> in that case someone needs to update the essay comparing miraheze to fandom to point out that miraheze SRE can override consensus at any time
[23:29:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> something that i've seen pages deny before
[23:30:47] <Naleksuh>	 I don't see any mention of SRe on that page
[23:30:56] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> it'll always be a cat and mouse game between captchas and programs that try to beat it. but if there was no captcha at all, it would probably be magnitudes of order more spam
[23:31:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> there is a comparison between miraheze staff and fandom staff
[23:31:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Naleksuh: We can't, ReCaptcha couldn't be fixed. At least not v3, our only other option was reverting to ReCaptcha v2, but HCaptcha has a better track record in prevention then that and is comparable to ReCaptcha v3.
[23:31:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:31:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Also, unlike ReCaptcha, HCaptcha is globally unblocked, where recaptcha is blocked in some countries.
[23:31:38] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:31:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Also, <https://www.hcaptcha.com/post/hcaptcha-vs-recaptcha>
[23:31:40] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] hCaptcha vs. reCAPTCHA | Blog - hCaptcha | www.hcaptcha.com
[23:31:54] <Naleksuh>	 @CosmicAlpha Why was that your "only other option"?
[23:32:22] <Naleksuh>	 There are lots of CAPTCHAs for MediaWiki-- and moreover-- there are ones that DON'T make the user run proprietary code and connect to an external server
[23:32:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> It was the only other option in terms of similar functionality and known to be working.
[23:32:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> isnt hcaptcha much more privacy focused? why would you want recaptcha
[23:32:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> It has better privacy also, yes.
[23:33:59] <Naleksuh>	 IIRC it was supposed to be a top priority to remove reCAPTCHA and do everything we can to prevent the full violation of all of Miraheze's software commitments from ever finding its way onto Miraheze servers again-- but it seems it was replaced with one that still has the exact same problems
[23:34:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Also HCaptcha is being evaluated for use on the WMF also.
[23:34:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> because the WMF is definitely a great role model for how to run a non-profit
[23:34:21] <Naleksuh>	 It's different when it's already there, but to change to it is an entirely seperate issue
[23:34:38] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> [[w:User:Guy Macon/Wikipedia has Cancer]]
[23:34:38] <wm-bot>	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer
[23:34:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Wiki-Bot> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Guy_Macon/Wikipedia_has_Cancer>
[23:35:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> you would have preferred to stay on recaptcha because it was "already there"?
[23:35:03] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower It also doesn't seem to be true. I see no mention of Wikimedia considering hCaptcha, and community has rejected it for similar reasons here
[23:35:19] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yea
[23:35:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T250227
[23:35:25] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] ⚓ T250227 Investigate and evaluate hCaptcha to replace Wikimedia's Fancy Captcha | phabricator.wikimedia.org
[23:36:17] <Naleksuh>	 It does not seem to be under active consideration, and the original task already lists the issues with it:
[23:36:19] <Naleksuh>	 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/K0WyHJ3N/image.png
[23:36:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i do not see how hcaptcha is any more privacy focused or how WMF is a good role model
[23:36:48] <Naleksuh>	 Also they rejected reCAPTCHA here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Perennial_proposals&useskin=monobook#Use_reCAPTCHA
[23:36:48] <Naleksuh>	 And ALL of the reasons apply to hCaptcha
[23:37:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> There is always issues with any possible option. It isn't perfect, but nothing that is within our resources or capabilities is.
[23:37:26] <Naleksuh>	 I don't remember if it was CosmicAlpha or someone else but one person was defending reCAPTCHA by saying that Wikipedia used it until someone pointed out "no they fucking aren't lol"
[23:38:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> "Privacy: reCAPTCHA collects data on users’ behavior and interactions with the website, whereas hCAPTCHA is more privacy-conscious and does not track users."
[23:39:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> <https://blog.cloudflare.com/moving-from-recaptcha-to-hcaptcha/> also
[23:39:30] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Moving from reCAPTCHA to hCaptcha | blog.cloudflare.com
[23:39:47] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo
[23:39:47] <MirahezeBot>	 [wikipedia] Ergo decedo | "Ergo decedo, Latin for "therefore I leave" or "then I go off", a truncation of argumentum ergo decedo, and colloquially denominated the traitorous critic fallacy, denotes responding to the criticism of a critic by implying that the critic is motivated by undisclosed favorability or affiliation to an out-group, rather than responding to the criticism itself. The fallacy implicitly alleges that the critic […]"
[23:40:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/cloudflare-drops-googles-recaptcha-due-to-privacy-concerns/
[23:40:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> or whataboutism or whatever cant find the right word for it
[23:40:02] <MirahezeBot>	 [url] Cloudflare drops Google's reCAPTCHA due to privacy concerns | www.bleepingcomputer.com
[23:40:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> That details better privacy with hcaptcha also
[23:40:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> [[w:appeal to popularity]]
[23:40:14] <wm-bot>	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/appeal_to_popularity
[23:40:15] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Wiki-Bot> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/appeal_to_popularity>
[23:40:16] <Naleksuh>	 Yes but Cloudflare is a tumor to the internet
[23:40:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> oh lol cosmicalpha basically posted the same thing
[23:40:23] <Naleksuh>	 So if anything that's an even bigger reason not to do it
[23:40:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yeah i dont think that cloudflare is any better of a role model than wikimedia
[23:40:57] <Naleksuh>	 Why would you take privacy advice from a business whose entire business model is MITMing traffic
[23:41:14] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > "Privacy: reCAPTCHA collects data on users’ behavior and interactions with the website, whereas hCAPTCHA is more privacy-conscious and does not track users."
[23:41:15] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> who is that from exactly
[23:41:18] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> because i think its from hcaptcha
[23:41:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> and as naleksuh and the WMF pointed out: https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/HW4619XA1HCgWH3FZfeSWH6NwycTIbB0V206lZNbQ5U/https/usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/K0WyHJ3N/image.png
[23:41:34] <Naleksuh>	 Might be from cloudflare
[23:41:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yeah either cloudflare or hcaptcha
[23:41:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> either are not good
[23:42:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> just some random website, a lot of different recaptcha vs hcaptcha reviews mention privacy
[23:42:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Captchas are vital. We get thousands of spambots every day who are twarted by it. If some circumvent it and there's a good handful of them then imagine what'd happen if it weren't there any captcha
[23:42:24] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> that's what stopforumspam is for
[23:42:34] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> again look at funsilo.date as a case study of how useless captchas are
[23:42:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> We're trialing SFS
[23:42:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> good
[23:42:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> keep using it
[23:42:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> instead of hcaptcha
[23:42:50] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> but I don't know if we'll remove captcha ever
[23:42:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > just some random website, a lot of different recaptcha vs hcaptcha reviews mention privacy
[23:42:58] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> [[w:appeal to popularity]]
[23:42:58] <wm-bot>	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/appeal_to_popularity
[23:43:00] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Wiki-Bot> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/appeal_to_popularity>
[23:43:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Yes yes, everything is a fallacy, we get it
[23:43:11] <Naleksuh>	 @Agent No one suggested removing CAPTCHAs. What was suggested was removing the external servers
[23:43:29] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower What's the name of the logical fallacy where you present two extremes and act like those are the only two options?
[23:43:30] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i never said that
[23:43:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> Naleksuh: if an inhouse solution existed then we'd use it but it doesn't
[23:43:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> false dilemma iirc
[23:43:41] <Naleksuh>	 That's what Agent has been doing. "The only solutions can be reCAPTCHA or no CAPTCHA at all"
[23:43:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> We will not remove captcha. We also have something.
[23:43:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:43:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> There is no option (that is decent and reliable) to remove external dependency.
[23:43:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> lol what. im just saying its more likely than not that hcaptcha is more privacy focused or they wouldn't make those claims due to the risk. or google would be doing it too for their service
[23:44:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> *have to have something
[23:44:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> fff
[23:44:35] <Naleksuh>	 @florigon Whether it's "more privacy focused" is irrelevant. It's still a required dependency on an external server, both for Miraheze and the client
[23:44:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> this is like replacing stage 4 cancer with heart disease and saying its good
[23:44:57] <Naleksuh>	 Lol I love that
[23:44:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> That's not a good comparison
[23:45:00] <Naleksuh>	 See Colleiflower gets it
[23:45:39] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> does anyone have any alternatives they would prefer? no captcha would probably not be good
[23:45:50] <Naleksuh>	 Yes, all of the options in the original RFC
[23:45:55] <Naleksuh>	 And proxy blocking
[23:46:07] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i dont think wikipedia has a captcha and if it does then its some kind of foss captcha, they have cut down on spambots through whatever they are doing
[23:46:08] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> We get targeted by hundreds of thousands of spambots every day. Removing captcha would be risky
[23:46:15] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower Yes, it does have a CAPTCHA
[23:46:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> ah
[23:46:20] <Naleksuh>	 @Agent NO ONE HAS SUGGESTED REMOVING CAPTCHA
[23:46:21] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> what does it use
[23:46:24] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower Link the fallacy
[23:46:32] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> They've got plenty of volunteers to lock them and to implement global blocks
[23:46:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> oh yeah i see what wikipedia uses
[23:46:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1071577564180652143/image.png
[23:46:41] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower I think it's QuestyCaptcha but it's one of the free ones
[23:46:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> ah
[23:46:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> thats what that is called
[23:46:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> questycaptcha seems acceptable
[23:47:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> It's very easy to crack
[23:47:32] <Naleksuh>	 That must be why Miraheze has more spam than Wikimedia. Because Wikimedia's is so much easier to crack
[23:47:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> collei did: "captchas as a whole are imo ineffective and privacy invasive"
[23:47:43] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > They've got plenty of volunteers to lock them and to implement global blocks
[23:47:44] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> they also have abuse filter, proxy blocking, a spam blacklist, etc.
[23:47:45] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> 
[23:47:46] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > [irc] <Naleksuh> @Colleiflower Link the fallacy
[23:47:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> [[w:False dilemma]] i think
[23:47:48] <wm-bot>	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
[23:47:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Wiki-Bot> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma>
[23:48:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> They do, yes, they've got all of that
[23:48:32] <Naleksuh>	 @Colleiflower Are you talking about external captchas or including ones entirely bundled on the wiki?
[23:48:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > collei did: "captchas as a whole are imo ineffective and privacy invasive"
[23:48:36] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yes but i doubt theres a better captcha to replace it with right now, if it was possible it'd be great to have no captcha but that doesnt seem possible given how much spam therei s
[23:48:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i mean external ones
[23:48:48] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> and the ones that fingerprint users require js etc
[23:48:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Look, I understand frustration. But would rather have ReCaptcha, that doesn't work at all, or hcaptcha that at least works, has better privacy, and is globally unblocked? Any of the other options, are not as good, block less, and wouldn't do much. We are so much smaller then companies like Wikimedia, and our CVT team can not handle the spam caused by not having one (or having a week one), unlike Wikimedia can better d
[23:48:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:48:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Miraheze does not have more spam then Wikimedia, they are just able to deal with it better as they are a lot larger. Plus they have 20 years of blocking proxies, and other anti-spam measures they have built up over the years that we are unable to do ourselves at this time.
[23:49:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> if its on-wiki and foss
[23:49:38] <Naleksuh>	 As mentioned before I made a method for importing Wikimedia's proxy block list
[23:49:41] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> then given how successful wikipedia is in proxy blocking and blocking spambot IP ranges, what if we use wikipedia's API to check global and local blocks for a given IP address?
[23:49:41] <Naleksuh>	 Try it out here: proxytest.miraheze.org
[23:50:20] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> we could also import some of their abuse filters etc
[23:50:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > But would rather have ReCaptcha, that doesn't work at all, or hcaptcha that at least works, has better privacy, and is globally unblocked
[23:50:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> sure but better =/= good
[23:50:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> other implementations have been suggested both on discord and on the wik
[23:50:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> *wiki
[23:51:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> captchas where source code is open are inherently worse at blocking spam because they are easier for others to crack when they can see the code
[23:51:05] <Naleksuh>	 It's not a question of "having reCAPTCHA" vs. "having hCaptcha"
[23:51:05] <Naleksuh>	 reCAPTCHA was bad, but was already there. You CHOSE to CHANGE to hCaptcha
[23:51:09] <Naleksuh>	 It is sort of like the trolley problem
[23:51:26] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Agent> They've got bans in there for reasons which aren't covered by our NOPP
[23:51:45] <Naleksuh>	 @Agent And which would those be?
[23:51:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> then check if the ban reason contains something like "spam" or "open proxy"
[23:52:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Okay, I understand your point, we could have stayed with recaptcha, and then no one could create an account, use DiscussionTools, or anything that required a captcha. That would have been so much better right?
[23:52:02] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> could get more specific given their templated block reasons
[23:52:11] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> no
[23:52:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> the proposal has been to change to questycaptcha which i still dont see evidence about having been cracked
[23:52:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > captchas where source code is open are inherently worse at blocking spam because they are easier for others to crack when they can see the code
[23:52:53] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> if the security of hcaptcha or recaptcha depends on it being closed source then if they ever got hacked in any way every spambot is going to start having a field day on miraheze
[23:53:17] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> companies like okta have had their source code stolen and the reason it didnt cause every company in existence to get hacked is because they can maintain security even if hackers have their source code
[23:53:35] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> true, but lots of stuff in the world would get messed up if someone hacked in
[23:53:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> yes but that is why security through obscurity by only protecting the source code is a bad idea
[23:54:09] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> products that are genuinely secure will not be easy to crack by only obtaining the source code
[23:54:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> hcaptcha might not have been permanent, others *might* be considered in the future, us changing to hcaptcha was to solve the immediate issue. It is not like everything else is permanently off the table. But there is no other option I'm aware of that is as reliable. If you know of one, then let us know. QuestyCaptcha is easily crackable, and it not a viable alternative.
[23:54:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> also i forgot the name of it but theres a browser extension you can find on github that bypasses every audio captcha automatically
[23:55:13] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> well maybe someone can code something that is super secure and open source, but currently companies would rather go the easier route and hide their code
[23:55:16] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> great that its not permanent but do you have proof that questycaptcha is easily crackable
[23:55:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> I didn't say it for sure wasn't permanent, I just said others *might* be considered in the future, if we have a viable alternative.
[23:56:28] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> It doesn't *have* to be permanent, if we have something else to switch to.
[23:56:49] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > well maybe someone can code something that is super secure and open source, but currently companies would rather go the easier route and hide their code
[23:56:50] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> sure but that creates the problem that the only thing a hacker needs to do to exploit several vulnerabilities is to obtain the source code, which is why security through obscurity is never a good tactic 
[23:56:51] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> 
[23:56:52] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > I didn't say it for sure wasn't permanent, I just said others might be considered in the future, if we have a viable alternative.
[23:56:54] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> > It doesn't have to be permanent, if we have something else to switch to.
[23:56:55] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i know, but why is questycaptcha not viable?
[23:57:01] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> you say its easy to crack but i dont think so
[23:57:06] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> or at least i dont see any evidence of that yet
[23:58:07] <Naleksuh>	 @CosmicAlpha What is your evidence that it is "easily crackable"?
[23:58:20] <Naleksuh>	 There have been no instances of that, but lots of hCaptcha solvers
[23:58:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> I feel like I am going in circles here, that has already been answered.
[23:58:23] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> 
[23:58:25] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <CosmicAlpha> Also SimpleCaptcha is what Wikimedia uses, not QuestyCaptcha someone that got implied above.
[23:59:29] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> i dont see it being answered yet
[23:59:32] <Naleksuh>	 Yeah I said I thought it was QuestyCaptcha 
[23:59:37] <Naleksuh>	 But eveyone acted like it was confirmed
[23:59:40] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <florigon> "never a good tactic" is kind of black and white thinking. companies are much less likely to put the money into building the software if others can take its source for free. and with less money going into the software, it's less effective. especially since this probably requires vast amounts of computing power to try to outsmart the AI's that are trying to outsmart it
[23:59:50] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Colleiflower> also simplecaptcha sounds good too if thats what wikipedia uses assuming its effective so far, is there evidence that its not
[23:59:57] <mhbridgebot>	 [discord] <Tali64> How about making a captcha that asks you questions about MediaWiki and you have to answer them by typing out examples