[00:28:37] huh, miraheze has a mastodon account [00:32:26] yup [00:47:08] 2 boosts away from level 3. lol [00:51:43] https://tenor.com/view/really-bruh-blink-blank-face-gif-12917060 [00:51:43] [url] Really Bruh GIF - Really Bruh Blink - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [00:53:06] What is that supposed to mean? [00:53:33] i just searched "bruh" in the gif keyboard and chose the first thing [00:54:00] OK [00:57:10] I just realized miraheze has no faq page [00:57:23] [[FAQ]]? [00:57:23] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/FAQ [00:57:24] [00:57:24] [url] FAQ - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [00:57:25] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:FAQ [00:57:26] [url] Meta:FAQ - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [00:57:44] nevermind [00:57:52] the skin i was using gave me the wrong link [00:57:56] i redirected it [00:58:50] @Agent thoughts: https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?diff=324455&oldid=324431&rcid=951019&diffmode=source [00:58:51] [url] User:Saber The Tyrant/mtms: Difference between revisions - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [00:59:53] I have designed a new logo for translation, do you have any ideas? [01:03:14] and the same for TA [01:06:11] also, some skins are really broken [01:06:17] [1/2] https://backrooms.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sheep42&useskin=pivot [01:06:18] [2/2] this looks fine [01:06:19] [url] User:Sheep42 - The Backrooms | backrooms.miraheze.org [01:06:38] [1/2] https://backrooms.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=User:Sheep42 [01:06:38] [2/2] this does not [01:06:40] [url] User:Sheep42 - The Backrooms | backrooms.miraheze.org [01:07:09] also kinda unrelated but socialprofile allows gif pfps [01:07:42] Neat designs, though the conversion icons (e.g. the "A") are a little hard to see [01:09:24] Yep, so I'm designing a new version. [01:09:59] think i'll just keep the skin as monaco for now since that works pretty well i think [01:12:11] Not all skins will play nicely with SocialProfile out of box, so that kind of difference is to be expected. [01:13:19] i honestly didn't know what i expected [01:13:25] vector legacy is pretty stable [01:14:23] Indeed, 12 years of development will do that. 😄 [01:17:03] monobook actually works better, no issues at all on the user profile [01:17:09] some templates break though [01:17:40] nimbus has a shoutwiki watermark at the top [01:18:16] you need to optimize things to work for the skin sometimes and socialprofile's optimization as noted above is limited [01:18:44] I've had structureddiscussions and blog features do strange things too on skins they don't recognize, as well as the notifications/inbox buttons [01:22:13] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:Administrators%27noticeboard#RequestTranslationAdministratorright [01:22:15] [url] Meta:Administrators' - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [01:22:21] can someone take a look at this, owo [02:25:44] might i suggest changing your username on this server? [02:26:46] it's a headache to look at on IRC, to be honest, and it's better (though of course not required) if your username is your miraheze name, just so it's easy to remember [03:13:51] IRC relay uses account username, not server nickname, so just changing on this server wouldn't do anything on IRC. [04:14:27] i suppose that's true [05:01:07] Level 3! [05:02:13] Or at least I thought it was, it was at 12 a little while ago, but it still says 12 boosts to me now... [05:03:31] nice! [08:05:30] I have resigned from Miraheze SRE effective immediately due to recent actions by John, and my loss of trust in Miraheze. I will likley later be leaving and cutting all ties with Miraheze as a whole. [08:06:22] what's happened [08:06:35] Look on community Noticeboard [08:06:51] John posted comments from a semi-private safe space for trusted volunteers [08:07:09] John leaked our private chats, and not only me are now leaving. The whole organization could collapse, I would start making some preparations for that if I were you. [08:07:22] holy shit [08:07:56] Calling it a day as well, getting affairs in order. [08:08:32] I will also be resigning and putting a hold for 24 hours. [08:09:16] In a few minutes I will make an announcement publicly on-wiki, and post revocations for John as my final act here. [08:09:19] right after all the stuff w/ funding ... [08:09:31] Yeah, not f*ing great timing. [08:09:47] But an untenable breach of trust [08:10:05] zero edit? [08:10:26] but what users will have to do now? [08:10:34] looking for other platforms? [08:10:59] That would be best. Maybe some of us will develop a new wiki farm in the future but right now I wouldn't rely on that. [08:11:02] and are you planning to make your own thing, someday? [08:11:04] TBD, this is a rapidly evolving situation [08:11:11] fuck, man [08:11:14] Yes, that would be my idea personally but it would be different from Miraheze [08:11:19] I'm just shocked [08:11:30] We're hoping to do as much as we can to not leave users out in the cold. [08:11:37] Right now things should be survivable until probably next year even without supervision if other SRE volunteers stay [08:13:12] I am also shocked and have put a 24 hour hold on my resignation as often things change but right now this is the unfortunate situation [08:16:01] I hope things won't be that bad... Miraheze is kind of the only hosting platform I can choose from at the moment. [08:20:13] [08:20:14] [url] Requests and proposals - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [08:23:06] guess I'll go request some data dumps [08:24:13] I forgot, file dumps has to be created separately? [08:24:37] Those can only be done by SRE, if anyone will be left to do them... [08:25:05] John can do it all on his own for all I care. [08:47:29] somebody cooked here… [08:47:33] I have read that announcement. Is sad to see the SRE resigning [08:48:04] Did I get pinged? [08:48:05] <06000208#9666> the announcement was deleted, concerning situation [08:48:09] Trash miraheze [08:48:17] Please transfer GoDaddy [08:48:22] fuck [08:48:26] https://godaddy.com [08:48:34] CosmicAlpha, did you post the announcement elsewhere? [08:48:38] lol go ahead with that one [08:48:40] anyway [08:48:46] where in the noticeboard? [08:48:47] Fuck [08:48:50] it's being argued out internally, might see changes to people's opinions [08:48:53] dude not now [08:48:55] What is happening lol [08:48:58] 시발 애장년아 뒤져 [08:49:04] ghost pinged, unfortunate. disbanding all ties to miraheze [08:49:05] Nothing is dying tonight. [08:49:06] chaos [08:49:06] <:BanHammerMH:766488025899073547> [08:49:14] Miraheze drama? 🤪 [08:49:24] Yes [08:49:27] Miraheze is trash [08:49:29] What the Niflheim [08:49:33] what was the announcement for doe [08:49:34] Has happened [08:49:38] Is this a bad time to go work on a wiki request [08:49:39] It's pretty useful.. [08:49:39] I would advise people not to panic and wait for things to play out [08:49:48] Panic about what. [08:49:56] 😰 [08:50:02] Uh, yeah. Make sure you're prepared to make an announcement, let it stand, and receive any response. Let's not be ghost pinging and deleting announcements. Poor execution [08:50:08] Please transfer godaddy or cloud hosting with Google Cloud Service's Compute Engine [08:50:09] 🤨 [08:50:11] <06000208#9666, replying to carhles#4647> several people said they were redesigning, there was an @ everyone ping from one of them, and then the announcement was deleted [08:50:14] Or AWS Cloud [08:50:15] Haha [08:50:19] Not appropriate. [08:50:26] <06000208#9666> yeah^ [08:50:28] I’m just gonna go on my miraheze rn and see if anything is up [08:50:40] dude please stop [08:50:41] Please wait for this to play out. There is a lot of things escalated rapidly behind the scenes. Anything that escalates the situation here will be deleted. [08:50:41] looks intact [08:50:42] <06000208#9666> nothing has changed for the site [08:50:45] Even if the announcement is no longer accurate, letting it stand while providing addenda is most appropriate [08:50:50] I do not unda stand [08:50:58] Well, as a very casual member [08:51:06] Miraheze has been very helpful [08:51:13] So thank you guys for your work [08:51:16] Seconded. [08:51:23] Miraheze trash [08:51:27] yes I'm afraid [08:51:27] Guys, this isn't the first time y'all have preferred to argue things out behind the scenes. [08:51:31] did somebody important do something unlike normal activities [08:51:44] I agree, just left a notice to try and provide something while people figure it out [08:51:45] Ah... this was that wiki thing that never worked out. /leave [08:51:59] What happened is a volunteer leaked private comments made out of frustration [08:52:06] who do you is running site? [08:52:06] That's why we are upset [08:52:19] what? [08:52:33] <노태현#3465> It's a new mess I haven't seen😭 [08:52:42] a group of individuals [08:52:50] or one supreme leader [08:52:52] my bad misread, sorry [08:53:01] yikers [08:53:15] Just when you think things have calmed down, something new rises from the dark side, huh…? [08:53:23] gotta stay calm ... [08:53:31] But we are still sorting things out so yes, stay calm [08:53:49] miraheze is a band of individuals with the intent of helping the platform always but different ways of going about it [08:53:50] just to be clear, none of this will affect anything to do with the wikis? it’s just personal beef right [08:54:00] ^ what im thinking [08:54:09] Not at the moment no [08:54:20] ‼️ [08:54:29] the worst consequences would be people leaving out of indignation/ideological differences that seriously stall operations be they technical or community [08:54:30] as long as theres a proper announcement later hope things get sorted out soon [08:54:34] i imagine it must be late for some of yall [08:54:40] There will be one [08:54:41] I just woke up to this shit [08:54:46] oof [08:54:53] But for now we are still discussing things and have been quite shocked [08:55:05] I'm still rooting for the success of the project, or something equivalent to it - there's nothing else that comes close for idealistic free wiki hosting [08:55:13] [1/2] It will be. I was the one to make the announcement. [08:55:13] [2/2] I will be refraining from any further pings or announcements until the matter is settled. [08:55:30] I hope you all can sort out the inter-cabal stuff, this sort of thing is always rough in close communities [08:55:41] [1/2] I'm okay with being pinged, though. [08:55:41] [2/2] And yeah, what Cook said. [08:55:45] slide the announcement over i’ll give you a picture of my room (intriguing offer) [08:55:59] I'm so confused,,, I rly don't want Miraheze going down,,,, <:bloomPanic:860724221264920616> [08:56:02] i am a master negotiator [08:56:02] yeah, it's a bit rough [08:56:04] Even without this drama though it's worth pointing out that SRE is severely understaffed [08:56:09] there won't be anything like 'oop the server is closed' [08:56:20] Yes, nothing rash like that [08:56:32] It wasn't a mistake to make the announcement. It was a mistake to delete it. Whether you or somebody else, addenda are always more valuable than replacement [08:56:46] but inter-sre differences in particular have flared up from time to time and that's what would be most likely to do damage [08:56:47] as long as i’m able to do menial tasks on my wiki i am content [08:56:50] So this latest chaos won't impact the wikis, as far as we can tell? [08:56:56] [1/2] Y'all know me, I'm not going to do anything further rashly. [08:56:56] [2/2] As the (now deleted) announcement says, the project has funding for the near future, so no immediate action needed. [08:57:03] i mean ngl if its nasty comments i dont think its good to keep it up on the announcements channel but thats just my 2 cents [08:57:08] idk depends if the announcement was a childish tantrum [08:57:18] the impact could be technical availability if people dip, hopefully we don't get hurt on that [08:57:26] what if db141 hears about this drama and decides to crash its disk platters [08:57:30] BC Miraheze is the best thing I have for my group eiki [08:57:33] gasp [08:57:42] get db141'ed [08:57:43] We don't know what will happen. I have already resigned. I might return if things get better, but there has been a massive breach of trust between volunteers in my mind. [08:57:51] Well isn't that a poor image to paint of our volunteers [08:57:52] having read it before it was deleted, it was hardly childish [08:57:52] +1 [08:57:55] oof happy retirement alpha [08:58:07] damn wat [08:58:11] ca dipping will result in any feature development being seriously stalled [08:58:12] just lemme join SRE, i have no bias [08:58:12] It always makes me sus when people display an allergy to context [08:58:17] uh oh [08:58:26] Context is all on CN [08:58:29] I'm just a very anxious person haha [08:58:31] It'd all there [08:58:35] CN? [08:58:39] cartoon network [08:58:40] who’s CN 🤙 [08:58:46] Ceez nuts [08:58:48] Context is provided in addenda. Tell me you've never been in a functional organization without telling me you've never been in a functional organization [08:58:52] L-O-L [08:58:54] I'll end the rant there tho [08:59:02] huh what is happening [08:59:05] noted with thanks [08:59:08] Community Noticeboard on Miraheze Meta. [08:59:09] I'm talking things like managewiki improvements, plugin hacks, createwiki; nothing that would fail overnight but it's a hit [08:59:27] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Communitynoticeboard#Questionsforcandidate2 I think this is the context [08:59:28] [url] Community - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [08:59:30] needless to say the platform is ever looking for mediawiki engineers [08:59:38] tbh I'm surprised y'all have managed to make it this far with volunteer eng [08:59:49] we essentially did things that way for RuneScape for about 4 years but it got to a breaking point [09:00:04] 6k wikis??? i remember when it was at 3k [09:00:14] insane [09:00:52] I don't entirely know what's going on, but I hope a good resolution is found quickly and that Miraheze continues existing [09:01:00] all are hoping [09:01:11] give it a day or so for dust to settle [09:02:04] And give the dust bunnies a hug, while we're at it. They feel lonely. [09:02:41] most of the messages John leaked aren't even that bad lmao [09:02:41] i’m about 200 pages through my 13000 page project i cannot have miraheze fail me now 🤞 [09:02:57] slide? 🫃👀 [09:03:04] he leaked vent messages ye [09:03:11] it's on the community noticeboard here [09:03:12] I know I had made a few but none quoted are mine [09:03:29] I don't even remember what my laundry was but if it was posted I'll go ahead and own it [09:03:29] vent messages are inherently private so kinda fucked up [09:03:38] should I just post the screenshot here, at this point? [09:03:47] aye son slide it to me tho [09:03:49] it was posed out of John's spirit of transparency and community [09:04:01] 🫴 [09:04:31] this seems to be the specific issue [09:04:35] Feel free it's public already [09:04:38] that would be it yes [09:04:56] you may have missed the revocation request for John as Steward whch is the other component, though the issue is ill explained there [09:06:00] It isn't about that. It is the concept. He shouldn't be leaking internal messages, especially under a context that should never have gotten here. It was a freaking GC request, how did it go from that to what has happened now? [09:06:21] no yeah I totally get that, I was just saying that he's ruined something great over something that means so little [09:06:30] hey CA my man don’t leave son [09:06:49] as a wise man once said (i’m the only one to say these words) we love miraheze administratiors [09:06:50] ca and john both have pretty strong ideological opinions [09:07:31] Wiki Community Noticeboard [09:07:32] John is the co-founder 😳 [09:07:38] 👁️ [09:07:59] indeed [09:08:01] [1/2] Frankly, I think you lot need to stop hiding behind the fact that those messages were "private" and either own it ("look this was venting, here is what action has/hasn't been taken, here is what effect it does/doesn't have") or take a long hard look at yourselves ("ok, I admit those are unprofessional, here's how we want to do better"). Answer the question about the messages t [09:08:01] [2/2] hen once that's resolved talk about if they should have been posted like that. [09:08:07] [[CN]] [09:08:07] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/CN [09:08:08] [09:08:09] [url] Community noticeboard - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [09:08:27] they're out, might as well own them I agree [09:08:40] I will admit this is a bit like the UK's so called "Lockdown Files" [09:08:46] The what now? [09:08:50] Which are leaks from the Health Sec and his advisors [09:08:53] It was venting [09:09:00] i don’t think anyone expects anyone to act 100% professional all the time. i mean, these are obviously jokes IMO. i don’t get the big deal. i make these jokes with my coworkers, not like i’m forcing resignation [09:09:04] no reason to not do both either, and maybe filter down the vent in the future after owning to them [09:09:10] Which are not dissimilar to these I'd say. There's a whole debate about those being leaked by a journalist [09:09:27] @Reception123 yea but the lockdown files had an impact [09:09:34] yeah it wasn’t professional but who is always professional? i mean, the UK had a guy without a comb for years [09:09:46] Too late for that, I already resgined. And don't regret it right now. I stick to that I will only return if John leaves. Which will be last I say have that. I have said my opinion on John. [09:09:46] These were frustrated rants that went nowhere [09:09:50] that was kinda funny because the journalist has done exactly the same thing before and was still handed more private files to ghostwrite another book, then just did the exact same thing [09:10:20] 🤧sorry to see you go. hope for good pastures [09:10:38] Anyway. It's even possible that the mistake was venting like that rather than taking actual action in relation to the user and whatever about them caused all that venting. [09:10:41] [1/4] To reiterate and recap: [09:10:41] [2/4] 1. Nothing is shutting down tonight [09:10:41] [3/4] 2. Some private messages (venting between unpaid volunteers) were publicly disclosed [09:10:42] [4/4] 3. No volunteer is being forced to resign, though several are under protest [09:10:58] The comments weren’t professional but they were vents that happened in what the participants making them comments thought was a safe space [09:10:59] I'd agree [09:11:10] We have tried but there's been resistance [09:11:19] And an idea that the gravity is not there for action against the user [09:11:20] there was a lot of ho hum about nale being a problem but nothing to really resolve it until very recent [09:11:35] That's why the messages were said out of frustration [09:12:21] @NotAracham i remember your election at the height of the DB141 War… you can’t go now 😩😩😰 [09:12:49] If they want to go, that's their decision, and I'll respect that. [09:12:50] Today has been the worst day for me in 10 years.... I put a lot of time and work and effort into Miraheze, it was sad to see it end like this. [09:13:13] To be clear, this all happened within the last... hour? [09:13:18] On my part I am not fully decided yet and trying not to be rash [09:13:26] Yep. [09:13:37] And the project was declared "ruined" within 25 minutes? [09:13:38] But if I stay things have to change [09:13:50] Once again, words out of frustration [09:13:59] Things are heated between volunteers right now. [09:14:02] It was "ruined" the moment John leaked those messages [09:14:06] Yeah, people say things when they're frustrated. [09:14:18] Things they don't mean, for instance. [09:14:44] is john even in this server [09:14:52] Yeah, like the leaked messages that supposedly were supposed to be people being serious [09:14:55] Which is not the case [09:15:17] no they weren't? [09:15:21] john labelled them as jokes [09:15:22] I see a distinct line drawn between such comments made in a public environment where discourse is permitted and encouraged, and a private channel which no ordinary members have access to [09:15:24] Everything I have said, I meant, just to be clear. I try to avoid saying things out of frustration, and my resignation from SRE is determined. I will not return unless things change. [09:15:38] " making jokes around things like:" [09:15:39] Transparency of the comments is a key factor [09:15:40] unfortunate news [09:16:11] Wait so what happened- i swear i turn off discord at the worst times [09:16:17] The method of disclosure, excised from context that clearly indicated a joking intent, was anything but transparent. [09:16:19] people got mad at each other [09:16:26] See pinned comments [09:16:31] Yeah if they were jokes why leak them? [09:16:34] SRE has instilled a justified concern that certain users may be at risk based on secret communication channels utilized by some of the highest access functionaries on the project [09:16:37] Pinned message. [09:16:58] No action can be taken without the community though [09:16:58] If you can't see that, I'm concerned what your perception of influence and transparency are [09:17:11] That's not completely true, and you know it [09:17:19] That's again why the messages. It was frustration that nothing could be done and the case was more than clear [09:17:32] Ah, leaked messages [09:17:38] Ive been there [09:17:53] could someone theoretically volunteer with 0 mediawiki experience for SRE 😈 [09:18:00] How many community projects have been nuked from the internet because of a single functionary? [09:18:18] I think you're really misunderstanding the situation [09:18:37] Y'all have an extreme degree of trust, and an obligation to understand the impact of the channels and discussions you establish [09:18:49] I've been nothing but consistent in this message from day one [09:19:16] [1/2] Not everything can be public, and what John leaked had nothing to do with SRE, or any higher elevated functionary users. The private channel is just something some users can talk in without risk of this happening. It has nothing to do with an SRE communication channel, not is SRE itself voicing any concern, John is, and it resulted in the upset of num [09:19:16] [2/2] erous other SRE members. [09:19:33] I agree. I'm relieved this is not as bad as ot sounded. 😌 👍 [09:20:06] john is exclusively on irc [09:20:10] Its bad, because they were leaked at all. It betrayed the privacy and trust of users involved. [09:20:10] It sounds like John is the one to blame for what happened, i don’t see why it needs to go further than John. One person doing something they shouldnt have does not mean everyone else will do that too [09:20:12] I still stand by the point I made [09:20:14] Yes. The point is no one was secretly planning on taking action against a user [09:20:19] john characterizes them as harassment [09:20:28] any action that we someone wanted to take would have gone through the community [09:20:30] he makes it more clear on the page requesting to revoke his stewardship [09:20:43] It relies on human judgement and restraint [09:20:49] where's that? I tried to find it but I couldn't [09:20:57] [[RfS]] [09:20:57] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/RfS [09:20:58] [09:20:59] [url] Requests for Stewardship - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [09:21:17] yeah that's where things go bad. Him calling it harassment of the community [09:21:22] that is 100% not what happened [09:21:26] So while that is the process, the inclination to judge community members in this way is indicative of something concerning [09:21:39] and it's also not fair to say the whole group did it when the comments were only made by a few users [09:21:50] well that particular community remember has been disrespecting volunteers for months now [09:21:58] it's indicative that nale is getting the sort of special treatment apex did despite consistently making things frustrating for everyone to work with [09:22:07] see https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Usertalk:Raidarr#Off-wikireferencesandname-calling [09:22:08] [url] User - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [09:22:26] ...some minutes after you said the project had been ruined? [09:22:33] pretty much what I wrote on the talk page is the gist I had for him piecemeal in public and in private [09:23:08] I said that again out of frustration and because even one volunteer resigning is terrible as we're already understaffed for such a large project [09:23:16] Who is judging community members of anything? I think you misunderstood the whole point. Even the messages that were leaked were meant as a joke, not a serious harrassment as they were never even said to the user in particular, but jokingly based off some of their own actions in the past. [09:23:34] Could that state of mind not apply to others too? [09:24:02] It can yes. But leaking private messages is inappropriate [09:24:23] I think the jump to ruin and resignation was definitely rather too fast and should have been/should be more thoroughly worked out before anyone decides to part ways tbh [09:24:28] What happened for John? [09:24:42] that's the crux of this, I don't get why some people aren't getting this [09:24:42] to be fair, i'd like to see the context behind something like "I’d gladly risk my rights to block him on ever wiki I have advanced rights on", that doesn't sound like a joke [09:25:02] funny enough the one who said it has virtually no rights to give [09:25:04] If that user seriously did that they would've been revoked/locked. [09:25:20] I fail to see what encouraged the use of a secret channel to express such "jokes" and comments, rather than doing so in casual replies on-wiki [09:25:24] i'll let him own to it if he wants [09:25:26] that's why the joke was that they would "risk rights" because they knew such an action would result in removal [09:25:40] I stick by my resignation as I have repeatedly said. Nothing is said that I will later regret. REGARDLESS of an outcome from, if that particular user still remains, I can NOT stay. [09:25:44] people would rather not fight about offhand jokes on wiki especially as some people can be dense to jokes and take them badly [09:25:49] [1/3] > So while that is the process, the inclination to judge community members in this way is indicative of something concerning [09:25:50] [2/3] I would say that even from my out of context perspective reading them that they are clearly understood as jokes, and tame jokes at that. You have a level of expectation of privacy when working internally for an organization. It makes sense to "whistleblow" when there is a serious problem that cannot be resolved internally. John of all people in that situation is in a position to re [09:25:50] [3/3] solve this internally, if it is even to be viewed as a problem in the first place. [09:25:50] idk if Nale ever helped regular users on Meta, CN, etc, but hanging there since mid 2021 I've never seen him helping users in chats, but making Meta related complaints [09:25:52] discussion is still open 👀 [09:26:16] having a space to vent can be good [09:26:16] I know nale's humor and mine go completely across from each other and end up being taken incorrectly either way most of the time [09:26:40] but there's a point where joking about someone just turns into talking smack about them behind their back [09:26:43] ay so i can just simply support to the revocation of stewardship? [09:26:49] Here's an example from the UK's lockdown files. Maybe not even a good one but I think it's quite similar. [09:27:09] there's worse in those files but that particular joke is just a joke [09:27:12] if that's what you want based on your read of things [09:27:31] I'm uneasy enough with the whole thing I'm not going to be voting either way most likely [09:28:04] [1/2] > but there's a point where joking about someone just turns into talking smack about them behind their back [09:28:04] [2/2] It doesn't matter if that happens. It is of no consequence. If the co-founder of the entire project really took issue with harmless smack talk, they should have handled that internally. This does not appear to have been a remotely serious issue. [09:28:28] You fail to realize he has no authority [09:28:43] Yeah, I wish he would've just said "Hey guys I seriously dislike this talk you should stop it" [09:28:58] at least as an attempt before going public [09:28:59] Yes [09:29:08] What does it matter in a situation like this? [09:29:25] You're placing a lot of value on "the co-founder" [09:29:28] [1/2] I don’t know what’s going on but I do know being tagged into the drama and trying to figure it out was a waste of time this morning. need to review miraheze processes for resolving problems between volunteers, leadership etc so that you don’t drag random bystanders in. Thank you for everyone’s work on miraheze but also please act like professionals, keep users out of the hig [09:29:28] [2/2] hschool shit, thank you. [09:29:29] It means next to nothing [09:29:35] Regardless [09:29:40] Thanks for the ghost ping 👋 at least I got some drama out of it [09:29:40] he's a steward and sre more than anything really [09:29:42] What does it matter in a situation like this [09:29:52] what IS a steward 🤔 [09:29:58] but the issue is ideology and beyond that it's only relevant that the parties are volunteers deeply involved [09:30:01] [[Steward]] [09:30:01] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Steward [09:30:02] [09:30:02] (oblivious 🤓) [09:30:03] [url] Stewards - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [09:30:07] aythanks raidarr [09:30:10] Exactly. It should've been any one of the people in the chat [09:30:11] Where there was no harm done to begin with, not exactly signs of a particularly internally toxic environment unless you are that opposed to tame jokes. [09:30:12] Definitely not to do with airlines. [09:30:33] harde har har [09:30:35] welcome to miraheze airlines, we're out of jet fuel but we have plenty of rockets [09:30:36] Why should it have happened at all? There's a reason the IRC is a private chat [09:30:36] Here's the thing [09:31:15] ay this Steward thing is crazy, im gonna nominate myself [09:31:21] (i will not) [09:31:34] In any case now that it is public people should just try and actually address the question ("Do these comments represent value and Miraheze in a good way?") - though I guess there are some people who were already ready to step away and this just made it snap into place. [09:31:43] SRE are not elected. SRE are not directly responsible to the community. It appears to me that the relevant chat is primarily populated by SRE, thought please correct me if I'm wrong [09:32:06] Counterpoint: those were four cherry-cherry picked comments from a private chat. [09:32:45] I'm not around much anymore :-) My issues with the organization as a whole have been longstanding and there's a looot of history you can find from me :p [09:32:50] it all does primarily include sre [09:33:03] So it wasn't even like a full conversation? 4 individual msgs/parts of it only? [09:33:04] doing this right now [09:33:07] the platform developed in a way that things are to this day a little muddled in management [09:33:16] I bet it won't take long. 🙂 [09:33:23] I've said constantly that Miraheze doesn't have proper safeguards [09:33:23] To be clear, when i say address it. Unless you lot think you were behaving indefensibly, I don't mean by that "apologise profusely". I mean address it. Talk about it. Answer the question. [09:33:43] [1/3] Hey y'all - I'm not really part of this community, but I have a small suggestion after having been through a number of very similar situations involving private chats: [09:33:43] [2/3] please SLOOOOW DOOOOOWN [09:33:44] [3/3] y'all are still pretty heated about something that happened like 2 hours ago, getting into a posture of having to defend it to randos on Discord isn't really the right move rn. just take it easy, and try to have more of the conversation on-wiki (CN/RFS, etc) where you can actually think about what you say before you say it [09:33:45] It truly needs to be as "human proof" as it can be [09:33:51] I do recommend the person quoted just own it on wiki tbh, he has nothing to lose [09:33:52] ¯\(ツ)/¯ [09:34:24] the platform is absent of safeguards to a lot of exploitable holes for a number of reasons really [09:34:26] i dont think anyone is still heated despite those directly involved it in. we just discussin [09:34:43] discussin we is... [09:34:48] But my popcorn is ready now <:Sadge:888183241717198888> [09:34:58] human proofing something as abstractly broad as miraheze would at best be painful [09:36:38] Highly agree. To have a positive view of this puts a lot of faith in John to present them within a fair context. At best, the "whistleblowing" would be useless because there is not enough context, which is what leads to this scenario where the only result is destroying trust with the volunteers. [09:37:47] I don't know about any of you, but I wouldn't want to work within an org that is prone to leak any out of context thing I say to the people I am privately saying it about. [09:38:00] And that's seemingly the problem here [09:38:35] Hmmm [09:38:55] Very valid [09:39:01] oh naw john puttin himself on a pedestal! [09:39:09] [1/3] Well, I'm leaving. [09:39:09] [2/3] (To take a nap.) [09:39:10] [3/3] I want more ghost pings-- [09:39:12] very ideological [09:39:14] Wait what [09:39:25] he will fight this one until he sees nothing worth fighting for [09:39:30] and to be fair he's resigned... three times I think [09:39:33] Trust needs to be re-established, yes, but we seem to forget that one person did this. People aren’t leaking left right and centre. [09:39:33] I'm seeing conflict right now between goals of achieving trust within community members and achieving trust within volunteers [09:39:45] I wish it did not need to frame as one or the other [09:39:51] I was about to say this. It's the same introduction as the last several times [09:39:52] CA. I think you could put a hold on your resignation for 24 hours. Is better to do it calmly. [09:40:02] he said he's thought about it [09:40:06] so 🤷‍♀️ [09:40:15] probably pent up frustration culminating in this one event [09:40:39] wasn't extreme enough to anticipate this but I think a little background went into it [09:40:50] john called himself a whistleblower. kinda goofy IMO [09:41:04] I didn't make my decision out of frustration but I thought about it. It is unfortunate, but I must stick to my resignation at this time, unless things change very quickly. [09:41:19] typo by CA in #announcements. laugh [09:41:32] you see he has a strong opinion about it, characterizing it as harassment [09:41:56] nale would no doubt agree but nale never seems to realize what make people think so ill of him in the first place [09:42:22] [1/2] > I'm seeing conflict right now between goals of achieving trust within community members and achieving trust within volunteers [09:42:22] [2/2] I feel like most community members would be able to recognize that there was no legitimate internal problem warranting this kind of behavior. [09:42:34] i put my thoughts in the Support subheading of his revocation [09:42:35] Especially in the original context it was presented which had nothing to do with what happened [09:42:53] Decisions aren't made by the majority of the community though [09:43:05] Neither are the community's feelings toward the matter [09:43:05] I think you misinterpreted what I said [09:43:10] in full hoensty I think part of the issue may well come down to John also being isolated from general discussions ie where the messages were quoted from, involving a large core of volunteers/ex volunteers, and himself with an almost birds-eye view [09:43:25] I was replying to what you said about trust towards community members [09:43:28] I've seen too many community members in this chat express concerns over the contents of the comments made to dismiss it [09:43:31] hey since youre resigning can i steal your user page @CosmicAlpha [09:43:32] I understand entirely [09:43:51] I didn't see a lot of people get hung up on the comments themselves [09:44:08] [1/2] > Decisions aren't made by the majority of the community though [09:44:08] [2/2] Why would that be relevant? [09:44:10] Sorry, the venue [09:44:23] You said "most" of the members [09:44:32] "most" is irrelevant when discussing the community [09:44:35] it's valid to be somewhat concerned of the venue considering it's a chat involving a lot of people with a lot of advanced rights [09:44:36] I haven't resigned on-wiki yet. I am waiting for that to see how this plays out. But if in 24 hours there is no change, I will resign all roles, and this server as well. [09:44:36] ay wait @NotAracham MAN DONT RESIGN I REMEMBER WHEN YOU GOT HERE [09:44:48] but on the other hand it is to be expected that such a place would exist to help them coordinate [09:44:51] or just say hello [09:44:53] unfortunate to hear. will you still participate on wikis hosted by miraheze? [09:45:08] ca operates a marvel wiki iirc [09:45:10] I know, I mean in the literal sense? But again why does that matter [09:45:13] I have a 24 hour hold as well [09:45:14] or was it a dc wiki, idk [09:45:15] Again, transparency wherever possible. Keep the contents of the messages out of those chats [09:45:18] something superheros [09:45:24] Business-only venues [09:45:34] 😭 [09:45:41] where I see room for improvement is more brainstorming in more public venues, ie, developing ideas through talk before pasting to official vote [09:45:52] No, I have already made the decision to move the only real wiki I do participate in off of Miraheze. Even if I end up returning or staying. [09:46:09] the ideas can and should initially appear internally if that is what gets them to exist but by all means there can be an intermediary stage where they are public before voting [09:46:27] I've said over and over again, and I know y'all long time members know me lol. Transparency only happens here where it's convenient [09:46:37] nobody tell CA that im ripping his user page [09:46:37] Hard disagree with ya there tbh [09:46:44] They can absolutely start publicly [09:46:51] The development may happen internally though [09:47:01] I've tried that often enough and had it muddled badly to the degree I no longer can take your position on it [09:47:10] I don't want to involve myself in this discussion (it's up to the volunteer staff to figure it out), I just wanted to say that while I'm sad to see you go, your hard work is seen and I wish you all the best whatever you decide to end up doing [09:47:10] phew thats a lot of words in the source. i will uh just improvise then [09:47:39] I am always more comfortable bouncing with at least one or a couple people in private and having something to offer before inviting elements of the community who I know by experience will then modify it possibly beyond recognition if it is unformed and raw before then [09:48:02] See, that's where I say not everything needs to be an invitation [09:48:21] The presentation of an idea fulfills transparency [09:48:26] Doesn't need participation [09:48:28] I still do try to start publicly in the raw but it is always just plain more problematic to pull anything off [09:48:44] [1/2] mate, please [09:48:44] [2/2] I can understand you try to ease up chat w/ jokes but it's getting a tad annoying, especially in such rapidly happening convi [09:48:49] still, I can and will continue to do that on one side, but some thoughts I will continue to present through people I trust to refine them further before I go on ahead [09:51:31] [1/2] [checks ghost ping] [backreads a bit] ...Mods, I think it might be best if someone slowmodes general for a few hours. I figure everyone's on Europe time, but this is... certainly an argument to be having at three in the morning. [09:51:32] [2/2] Wishing those leaving best of luck on future endeavours, and those staying best of luck on dousing the fire, I think? [09:51:39] ay my fault man, ill ease up [09:52:00] it's calmed down a fair bit since the start [09:52:07] I am on US time, and it is 4AM... [09:52:09] personally off to work now, slightly late already [09:52:18] Lol hello fellow PSTer [09:52:20] what happened? [09:52:25] pinned messages [09:52:27] See pins [09:52:31] ols [09:52:43] I've left a comment on https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/RequestsforStewardship#John'sRevocationof_Stewardship - refrained from putting it in oppose since I'm not active but y'all really need to take a big step back IMO. [09:52:44] [url] Requests and proposals - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [09:52:45] PST gang [09:53:11] I got 30 minutes of freaking sleep last night, and only a little tonight also. I am going. I will also be away for a few days, completely, to let things blow-over a bit. [09:53:55] please get some proper sleep man [09:53:57] i saw your message. IMO, the discussion is not about the content of the messages, but the character of John and releasing those messages [09:54:22] it shouldve been handled in private. the content of the messages isn't a factor [09:54:23] Hey, good on ya. Important to remember the human. I hope you're able to take care of yourself and find something to captivate you in the next chapter :) [09:54:23] that's materially impacted by the content though [09:54:34] just... one thing at a time, y'know? [09:54:35] Get some rest, CA. Sounds like you really could use it. 💚 [09:54:38] yur [09:55:38] I wanna be clear that I'm not necessarily saying people shouldn't go all "him or me" on it - I'll never know the full context as i've not interacted with the referenced user at all never mind day after day - just that people should be sensible. [09:55:42] Yikes, I been spending too much time arguing with people in internet organizations [09:56:07] Sometimes, I really wonder if the internet's impact on society is truly good 😆 [09:56:42] it's interesting how wikipedia prevents some of the kinds of issues discussed by having a near complete ban on decisionmaking that results from discussions off-wiki. Of course, miraheze is not wikipedia, so not everything translates and I see both sides of this sort of organizational theorizing [09:56:48] Hello [09:57:45] I enjoyed it [09:58:42] The Internet is absolutely BOTH a blessing and a curse [09:58:47] I know it isn't. I hate how internet is right now and the drama it brings. I wish people would just talm rather than everything the internet brings. It has a lot of issues. And has been proven to have a negative impact on people's actions. [09:59:09] I've noticed that something that causes a LOT of stress just in general is when people feel personally responsible for something, but also don't really have any control over it. [09:59:23] I wonder if that's the whole internet, or just the social platforms it brings [09:59:36] The distribution of information is quite incredible [09:59:43] I think it's a bit of a and a bit of b [09:59:55] I don't think we saw this level of polarization until the rise of algorithmic social media [10:00:09] ever heard of IRC drama? [10:00:16] Peak confirmation bias [10:00:41] wdym by that? [10:01:10] Social media has a way of strengthening and affirming folks' confirmation bias [10:01:32] They just double, triple, etc. down on their existing beliefs [10:01:36] Big social platforms mean that anything you say is broadcast to 00s to 000s of people, rather than maybe single-digit or low double-digit numbers in physical social groups. That increases greatly the odds of reaching someone who disagrees with you really strongly, even without algorithms. [10:01:49] ah yeah that makes sense, I thought you were referring to me having confirmation bias lol [10:02:52] social media lets all of the people who'd just be some crazy person on the corner of the street yelling about the end of the world congregate together [10:03:34] sorry but fellas that sound like off topic [10:08:09] I'll be taking a one day break today but things look much better than a few hours ago. [10:09:34] Can someone update what happened? [10:10:06] see pinned [10:28:36] What does SRE stand for [10:28:49] Site Reliability Engineer [10:29:05] [1/5] > He has disregarded the trust of the volunteers that could result in total collapse of Miraheze. [10:29:06] [2/5] If this trust is so important, why did there even need to be a private discussion in the first place? [10:29:06] [3/5] and if the discussion leaked was not sensitive and was just jokes, why did this blow up so much? [10:29:06] [4/5] I'm just personally disappointed in how much this was escalated over that of all things, being a wiki creator and co-owner myself [10:29:07] [5/5] i just think this was a big overreaction [10:29:34] It's not about the content of the messages, but the fact that the messages were leaked in the first place [10:29:50] it's a violation of trust [10:30:49] Idk I usually enjoy having private discussion with colleagues and even my boss at work where we can pal around and have a laugh and vent in between "real" work [10:31:28] Nale is also a bit controversial in the TF2 community [10:31:51] It intending to pile on the guy, but just providing insight that it isn't just the bias of some SRE people [10:31:58] TF2 wasn't in my Miraheze Drama Bingo [10:32:34] I don't participate in community/fandom much tho [10:32:44] Hah well, when I was looking for context after getting shadow-pinged, I noticed a familiar face [10:33:11] He contributed to a bunch TF2 community projects [10:33:29] oh dang I've played on Casual.TF [10:33:42] tf wiki? [10:34:01] That and a few coding projects as well, casual.tf [10:34:11] IIRC potato.tf [10:35:09] small world [10:35:12] https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/nyf537/mywarningexperiencewithcasualtf_servers/ found some context for this [10:35:13] [url] Reddit - Dive into anything | www.reddit.com [10:35:32] whoops, getting off topic again [10:35:48] He wanted to contribute to a project I am a lead of as well [10:35:55] I'm not a mod tho [10:36:19] Oh I'm just trying to move to a conclusion that fits here as well [10:38:05] The gist is that he doesn't seem very good communicating as text, thus ending up sounding like a jerk time to time and getting into many misunderstandings. On the other hand man's made a charity fundraiser with the casual.tf service, received horrible threats in the potato.tf community that can never be called for, and did contribute to many places after all [10:38:24] Point is, i don't think he has actual ill will [10:39:42] I know the catalyst for everything lays on John, but it's unfortunate seeing yet another drama have a (if indirect) relation to him [10:49:59] just woke up and oh god [10:51:56] morning [10:52:53] morning [10:56:10] <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> Well this is...A state of affairs I guess [11:03:07] #announcements [11:03:10] … [11:03:15] Did I miss something? [11:03:33] I woke up to see I had a ping. [11:04:44] Seems multiple people resigning… I’m not sure scrolling through chat. [11:05:19] See pins, issue stemmed from private msgs being posted publicly, looks out-of-context at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Communitynoticeboard#Questionsforcandidate2 [11:05:21] [url] Community - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [11:09:35] Wtf is going on [11:10:02] Just finished. Seems like it was a leaked private chat on some “joke” now some people are resigning. [11:10:59] trust betrayal is the main reason for resignation [11:11:30] dude, what are you always typing? [11:11:36] and not sending [11:11:46] A damn bible. [11:11:47] bro lemme cook lol [11:11:55] you've been cooking for a while lmao [11:12:13] use wordpad xd [11:12:22] what is this 2005 [11:12:39] np++ it is [11:12:50] tru [11:13:00] normal notepad is where it's at [11:13:32] I can't believe I learned to program using notepad [11:13:36] how did I put myself through that [11:13:48] my first HTML in school [11:14:01] in notepad [11:14:08] I was making adventure games using batch scripting in notepad [11:15:26] that has to be illegal to use notepad for programming :p [11:16:05] So what happened [11:16:39] See here [11:20:30] That really sucks [11:20:38] I would hate to see this project fall [11:21:41] I'd say not getting enough donations is a bigger risk than a squabble once and a while [11:22:59] in the end people may disagree on the specifics of how Miraheze should work, but its core value is the same for everyone [11:26:02] there are important expenses yes, but it was also mentioned earlier in this channel that miraheze is severely understaffed in terms of sysadmins, and if three of them choose to resign simultaneously the understaffing will be much worse [11:26:15] Really disappointed hearing everything that has transpired, but I hope the best for CA and still want to see Miraheze succeed and thrive as a community and project [11:26:32] well, you see, the problem bigger than small donation is a lack volunteers who will maintain technical aspects [11:27:16] ah, just was said [11:38:25] I think a bigger problem at hand is how often people use the threat of resigning. There's both a financial, volunteering and culture problem here that needs fixing yet seems like it won't be fixed. [11:39:16] Personally, I don't think John has done anything that bad - and it's been hyped up against him. [11:42:55] I don't know about that, throwing in random quotes without any context from a private conversation when it has virtually nothing to do with the community noticeboard request [11:43:12] That's fucked up if you ask me [11:43:19] [1/3] I still think it was a bit much for this one incident, especially given not only was there apparently no sensitive discussion going on, but the leaked messages don't even have any names or timestamps associated with them. Also, the whole question thread (1) is literally about "a private discussion between Miraheze staff members". How could that line of questioning not have [11:43:19] [2/3] ended the way it did? Especially given both sides committed to going down that line of questioning. [11:43:19] [3/3] Like, "yes I'll answer your questions about this private group chat... oh no, messages from the private group chat, how could you do this" [11:43:35] They need to be discussed properly in the context of the request [11:43:36] how would you feel in such situation, Owen? [11:44:08] If the conclusion from that discussion is that they added nothing or were unnecessary, then you can start saying they shouldn't have been posted [11:44:40] People jumping to resigning and also trying to get rid of him within minutes feels more like a deflection and certainly not like particularly good faith. [11:45:04] Not that it should condemn them as people, people get emotional and make mistakes [11:45:09] I can only speculate that it's the top of the iceberg in this case <:shrug:768840831821414438> [11:45:41] Like if there's mitigating context for example it should be really easy to demonstrate that [11:46:17] appeal to emotion <:trollface:973970675696017498> [11:46:26] And I'm not saying there isn't mitigating context, by the way! [11:46:46] no, but trust can be lost easily [11:46:56] I wouldn't trust either [11:47:04] I missed a show last night [11:47:09] it happened once, it might happen again [11:47:30] it might be even abused [11:47:47] Yeah but this happened once [11:48:00] I find myself feeling more trust towards a platform that calls out bias against a user on the part of those with power, than towards one where discussions between those in power are safeguarded. [11:48:02] The point is more that you shouldn't need to be the person providing "mitigating context" because it is clearly posted without context and fairly out of topic [11:48:28] the group chat discussion was the topic [11:48:52] all considering that platform has access to personal stuff etc [11:49:17] Sounds like joking around to be, it's normal to have a place to vent [11:49:32] but how do you know that without context [11:49:49] Yeah, if there's an inappropriate private group chat involving someone nominated to a position of power, and also the person nominating them by the way, that's very relevant. [11:49:49] Regardless, shouldn't even have been posted publicly anyway [11:50:34] Makes me wonder how many of the people jumping on 'support' for removing john have a personal stake in the group chat he's been critical of [11:50:58] escape209: I very much doubt that John uncovered a secret conspiracy against Naleksuh [11:51:12] feels more like joking around and venting [11:52:09] It shouldn't be necessary to imagine that defense, though? If that's the case those involved should be able to say it, and demonstrate it pretty easily. [11:52:58] The fact that it was posted on an SRE only channel can only mean one of these two things to me: secret conspiracy or venting, and that the fact it was posted as venting is indicative of the level of trust that existed between them (and why leaking them was taken as personal) [11:52:58] Without context I can't say whether they were joking or not, right? [11:53:24] In any case, I think this WP guideline can be valuably applied: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Assumegoodfaith [11:53:25] [wikipedia] Wikipedia:Assume | "Assuming good faith (AGF) is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. It is the assumption that editors' edits and comments are made in good faith – that is, the assumption that people are not deliberately trying to hurt Wikipedia, even when their actions are harmful. Most people try to help the project, not hurt it. If this were untrue, a project like Wikipedia would be doomed from the beginning. This […]" [11:53:39] There's no such thing as context on text-only conversations. [11:54:06] Assume good faith on the part of John? That he's calling out genuinely problematic behaviour that really needs to be addressed? [11:54:26] [1/2] he should have address that privately, especially if he thinks it's "harassment" [11:54:27] [2/2] all active in chats users know how conversations w/ that users are going, I'm not even surprised about such vent [11:54:29] By their very nature, you miss things that you would have catched on if it was face to face, or even a video [11:54:59] I'm just saying that it seems people too often drag out pitchforks when they do more harm than good [11:55:57] you'd think if there were any of those other things they'd have been mentioned [11:55:57] <:emj_eyes:1019924615499354162> [11:56:03] [1/2] what happened? [11:56:03] [2/2] i was asleep [11:56:04] hi lake [11:56:10] hello legroom [11:56:13] some things [11:56:18] what other things? [11:56:34] there was brief panic [11:56:40] at the very beginning [11:56:45] and ghost ping [11:57:03] but now just one thing, if you mean SN [11:58:31] Legroom: If John seriously thought that was an attempt at starting a harassment campaign, I don't think leaking it would've been a bad decision [11:58:59] The problem I think is that John fell victim to the "there's no context on text-only" fact. [11:59:26] If it was face-to-face, you would know when someone is just venting [11:59:32] well, how often John even checks general user chats? [11:59:58] @Coolie I agree that's true just in general, I struggle to see the application now though. I do think people need to take a step back and work through everything one issue at a time. And yeah exactly @escape209 - the response has really rubbed me up the wrong way. [12:00:02] But there's no way to tell in text-only [12:01:03] he made a rather quick assumption, and making assumptions w/ chats is a big mistake [12:01:11] And also, like I said, the leaked messages don't even have any names or timestamps associated with them. [12:01:30] I was called names because people simply assumed my "tone" [12:02:01] Legroom: that's exactly what I'm talking about [12:02:06] If the message is leaked… I know many of you will be mad for me to bring it up. But could anything else like passwords be leaked? [12:02:12] I strongly believe that's what happened here. [12:02:14] [1/2] regardless of what was discussed, there is an expectation of confidentiality and trust when it comes to internal messaging for any organization–airing out dirty laundry, especially if it was not meant to be seen by a wider audience or even the user in question, or a sign of grave misconduct, is worrisome. What was leaked was not even particularly egregious but the fact it was [12:02:15] [2/2] leaked to begin with was not the right move at all [12:02:16] Foxyboy: No [12:02:33] Passwords are not stored in plaintext to begin with [12:02:39] The IRC channel has nothing to do with the login DB [12:02:41] that's my concern re trust to the platform, I'm personally pretty paranoid [12:02:51] @Rman i see youre here as well [12:03:06] I am invested [12:03:30] the whole motivation for John to leak the messages doesn't apply to that [12:04:24] I would be scared if anything someone’s wiki has as confidential getting leaked as well but not sure what volunteers have access to. This leak. Could effect how people wish to donate. They would wanna deal with a wiki they can trust. [12:04:51] Nothing like passwords etc would be leaked. The chat in question is a discord channel on this server and it’s been agreed it’s not bound by our legal NDA, So nothing confidential gets discussed there. It seems like there was just implicit trust to not share messages but it appears someone sent them to John? [12:04:51] @Centrist16 it was certainly a nuclear option but I think it was, if not relevant and important overall, at least believed to be relevant and important by John. [12:05:00] Nothing on wiki or our servers would be affected [12:05:20] In fact that's the point, whether or not it's relevant or important needs to be explored properly [12:05:29] I just assumed John was in the server, but apparently he's not here [12:05:41] John was never big on discord me thinks [12:05:42] hes irc only :p [12:05:53] at least from what i can tell [12:06:01] he's only on IRC [12:06:08] could he have seen it over an irc bridge? idk [12:06:16] who's Juwi? [12:06:20] ndkilla [12:06:28] thx fiddlestix [12:06:29] Whereas some people seem to be pushing forwards on not only an assumption that it's not relevant or important, but the idea that relevance or importance shouldn't be considered at all which I don't agree with. [12:06:33] np [12:07:18] but if he was sent those messages by someone else, that has other implications for trust i.e. who sent them to him? [12:07:21] [1/2] in any case [12:07:21] [2/2] I hope people don't panic, things will get resolved [12:08:06] he assumed straight up it's a harassment w/o asking or being aware of what happens in general chats to begin w/? [12:08:09] I’m in a panic state. But not about here. But about my job at work. We got too much damn ice cream there. [12:08:10] The whole idea that it's obviously bad because it's a leak and it doesn't matter what or why is, to be honest, something that leads me as an otherwise disinterested party to be a lot more sympathetic to John [12:08:37] And let's be clear, I had no idea who any of these people are before the ghost ping this morning [12:09:01] which people? [12:09:38] I don't remember you talking here much tbh [12:09:41] The ones involved. John, whoever's in the group chat... literally anyone involved in miraheze at all to be honest. [12:09:44] exactly [12:10:25] I'm in this server because I had a few questions about the structure/setup of a project that I've still not written a proposal for because i wouldn't have the time atm to dedicate to doing it right [12:10:53] *a wiki proposal, to clarify [12:12:25] [1/4] My two cents, having been involved in incredibly high-drama, high-friction communities (livejournal roleplay comms were... a thing.): [12:12:26] [2/4] Leaking an attempt at a harrassment campaign (and I'm not saying this is happening here, I'm steelmanning the position) is basically the best way to accidentally start a flame war as people start siding with and against people they have a bias towards, exacerbating things by basically prompting people to defend and air their own grievances publicly. [12:12:26] [3/4] I honestly hope that Miraheze's got enough adults not to do that but I've seen enough adults act like teens on the internet that my faith in humanity is wobbly, so I feel like John could have handled any whistleblowing a little better and a little more "ayo I understand the urge to vent but if you have issues with an individual please don't just sit on this until it explodes, [12:12:26] [4/4] is this a serious issue that should be addressed and do you need a mediator?" [12:13:44] So I'm completely disinterested but I'm coming in and seeing "this is bad because it's a leak, that makes it inherently bad" as an instant response without discussing the contents or the questions posed, and that makes me think actually the leaker had a point, is the best defense is just to attack the source. [12:13:57] That said @Neo Qwerty is right, it's very much a nuclear option [12:14:21] so you don't know that there are users who sometimes act rather frustrating [12:15:07] [1/3] Context is key. The user they were venting about is known to be quite combative and a prick, so I don't blame them. So it was already an open secret that that user was not well-liked and their arguments were here on full display via the IRC logs here anyways. The thing is, it's not as though they were going to take any actual, unilateral action against that user without some [12:15:07] [2/3] form of transparency. However, because they were reasonably frustrated, they decided to vent on what was supposed to be a secure, private channel. If John decided to leak messages like that, who knows what else he could've had chosen to leak. How would one feel knowing anything they say has the risk of being broadcast to the public, out of context, regardless of the nature or [12:15:08] [3/3] importance of said message. There were other, more appropriate ways to handle this with tact and sensitivity [12:16:10] sarcasm comments on Meta [12:16:15] too [12:16:26] [1/2] ok so, I didn't see literally anything because it was like 3-4 AM in my timezone, so I was asleep [12:16:26] [2/2] but is this user they were venting about a staff member? [12:16:34] or just a ordinary user [12:19:11] from my understanding, they don't have any official role or function to begin with [12:19:23] I was asleep for the whole ordeal, but after reading it, I have released a statement [12:19:53] MacFan4000: where? [12:20:02] CN [12:20:04] I have witnessed for myself for months now how that user in question seems to argue over the most inconsequential minutiae on everything [12:20:18] oh, "IRC logs", I kinda can guess who is, lol [12:20:21] he has wiki creator and patroller role on Meta [12:20:35] and is also a interface-admin at meta [12:20:38] i think [12:20:59] I mean, I haven't seen him helping ordinary users here [12:21:30] I would certainly hope that Reception and CA don’t fully leave - it would effectively leave me as the only member of the MediaWiki team, and having SRE severely undermanaged like that would not be great for the future of miraheze [12:22:20] mostly complaints about bureaucratic matters on Meta and anti-Discord propaganda lol [12:22:28] I very much hope that the situation gets resolved [12:22:36] aren't we all [12:23:18] We should certainly be careful what we say here, as the channel is publicly logged, this Naleksuh can see everything that is said if they chose to read the logs [12:23:29] thus* [12:25:02] hi i just woke up, no clue what happened here is anyone able to recap? [12:25:12] pins still leaves me with more questions than anything [12:25:33] see https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_Stewardship&curid=4268&diff=324645&oldid=324643&diffmode=source [12:25:34] You'll get either one side of it or the other [12:25:35] [url] Requests for Stewardship: Difference between revisions - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [12:25:35] active chat users know and see that behaviour, as Centrist said [12:25:36] Unfortunately CA at least seems pretty set on leaving fully, unless John leaves at least. Reception is a bit more up in the air from what I gather, but still likely to leave. [12:25:52] just nobody address is out of politeness [12:26:28] openly [12:28:36] @Legroom it not being addressed may (and I mean may, i don't know) be a problem in itself [12:28:56] ok, I'm a tad tired, idk what should I do w/ my wikis, lost some motivation tbh [12:29:11] hoping for the best outcome, of course [12:30:58] [1/3] not miraheze related, but [12:30:59] [2/3] we on WiKirby (wiki about kirby obviously) opened a russian version [12:30:59] [3/3] it's still a WIP but, it's there [12:30:59] lol [12:31:05] If you decide to move the Devilman one I'd like to follow like a lost puppy, even though my ADHD is kicking my butt on working on it right now, just so you know [12:32:09] One of Kovo's editors wants us to open a French version [12:32:13] I have been contemplating it [12:32:14] I'm not aware of everything that has happened, and I apologize if this is seen as insensitive, but are our wikis at risk of being taken down at this point in time? [12:32:24] But I want it to be more organized in English first [12:32:43] Nah [12:32:46] [1/2] I have no idea where I can move such wiki, especially when I migrated it off FANDOM all alone lol [12:32:46] [2/2] might pretty much just call save dump and retire this whole idea [12:32:59] fandom 🤮 [12:33:00] [1/2] I have no idea where I can move such wiki, especially when I migrated it off FANDOM all alone lol [12:33:00] [2/2] might pretty much just save dumps and retire this whole idea [12:33:11] I have no reason to believe that wikis are in danger at this time [12:33:22] yeah it's just [12:33:34] like intrusive thoughts you know [12:33:56] [1/2] well, you could dump everything on the wiki and save it just in case [12:33:56] [2/2] so at least you can have a local installation whenever you want to edit something [12:34:15] just as things can change within hours, who knows what will transpire over the next year, but I'm still cautiously optimistic [12:34:20] quick question whys the irc messages popping up here [12:34:26] bridge [12:34:34] so the irc guys can post here [12:34:49] [1/2] sadly never played a single Kirby game though he's cute [12:34:49] [2/2] having investment in wiki's topic is base of fruitful work on it [12:34:49] and vice versa [12:34:50] We bridge the channels to make communication a little easier [12:35:12] ok now the next question i have to ask is where is this irc lol [12:35:48] [[IRC]] [12:35:48] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/IRC [12:35:49] [12:35:50] [url] IRC - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [12:36:50] oh so its like discord another [12:36:56] * migrated and fixed all templates all alone [12:37:19] "irc, oh is that like discord" just made me really feel my age lol [12:37:32] IRCs predate Discord by a loy [12:37:36] IRC is WAY older than discord though, but also a bit more technical to use, but yes it is a text chat protocal [12:37:46] i mean the answer is basically yes, but ouch [12:37:47] ok and i never used it before so it doesnt matter to me lol [12:37:47] I remember using Mibbit for IRC lmao [12:37:51] "several people are typing" [12:37:53] i was on irc for a year or two before discord was a thing, so like 2014/15 [12:38:16] then made my discord in 16 [12:38:39] still so confused how a leak can lead to miraheze getting shutdown fears [12:39:03] Aww, you cute little youngling, I had stopped using IRC multiple years before Discord was even invented <:blobhug:396521731126460427> [12:39:07] the main difference is irc doesn't support stuff like voice channels or directly uploading images (although my and some friends would send images to each other by copying and pasting the base64 as text) [12:39:14] uhh very weird stuff happening [12:39:24] im kinda worried about my sandbox wiki [12:39:48] it's not personal data kind of leak that leads to shut down, it's a leak which lead to trust issues between higher up volunteers [12:39:49] i dont know 99% of it lmao [12:40:01] ahh i see [12:40:19] amogus [12:40:20] and resignation of some of these volunteers [12:40:23] and because two members of the already understaffed SRE who keep Miraheze running on the technical side are either resigning or likely resigning due to said leak [12:40:31] please don't flood [12:40:32] so basically private shit that basically lit a fire on the volunteers trust [12:40:39] yea [12:40:50] i mean they were also joking about another volunteer behind their back, i'd say there was already trust issues there [12:41:07] but damn how bad is this leak for like 2 of the sres to stepdown? [12:41:08] I agree though the leaking was a misstep [12:41:12] id assume it was [12:41:16] pretty bad [12:41:30] I just think the reaction to it was way overblown [12:41:32] not even major or anything but moreso the fact it was leaked to begin with [12:41:55] idc what people say about me behind my back, I'm almost certain that my ethnicity might be discussed at work [12:42:00] why ghost pinging tho [12:42:01] well in my opinion i feel like the reaction was kinda overblown? [12:42:02] And the fact it involved a specific user [12:42:03] not sute [12:42:17] the user who shallnt be named [12:42:24] The content of the leak is not that bad, as said just some jokes, without even a timestamp or even who send the messages originally, it is more the idea of anything being leaked that causes the issues [12:42:26] the unspeakable [12:43:01] You could argue the issue could go all the way back to the existence of the private chat in the first place and what was being discussed there [12:43:01] and as I already said before, the person they were joking about already has a reputation anyways [12:44:03] i mean i get that the situation behind the scenes may be different than what we see here publicly, but why drag all of users into this conflict (or whatever happened) [12:44:08] an announcement was made in a hassle and then deleted [12:44:31] i see [12:44:33] I think they are well in their right to maintain a private chat just as any government, organization, company, or other entity would keep their internal messaging and information confidential [12:45:11] [1/2] Yeah... and there's not a lot of places to host a Devilman wiki given most places make any pics of Sirene or Devilman Lady a TOS gamble, ugh. [12:45:11] [2/2] If you want to just close everything I won't blame you but I'd like to say that if you just want to take a break I'll keep poking at the Devilman wiki. (and if you want to throw it at me I wouldn't say no either) [12:45:19] Not really, to my understanding, it was more of a chat of people who happen to be both friends, and higher ranked in miraheze, than an actual internal chat. It is pretty much inevitable for such kind of chat to exist [12:45:20] What's up with the recent anouncement about the shadow ping, one member resigning, etc.? Is it something us Wiki-owners should be concerned about? [12:45:25] It's essentially a necessity to a degree [12:45:34] Precisely [12:45:53] The thing that concerns me more is the person involved is exactly the reason why Miraheze is always rejected on the English Wikipedia wikifarms list... It's not any other person is it. [12:46:25] First time I'm learning about that [12:46:33] i wouldve gone to wikidot to move the rise of nations wiki but miraheze alone beat wikidot in every way imaginable [12:46:35] 👀 could you elaborate [12:46:39] who's that person? [12:46:48] [1/3] So I guess either [12:46:49] [2/3] 1. John shouldn't have asked about the chat. [12:46:49] [3/3] 2. They should have told him they wouldn't divulge any details of the goings-on in the chat instead of committing to discussing it. [12:46:58] i also had another option, to host my own server using money i get from developing stuff [12:47:03] hindsight tho [12:47:13] but that felt like wayy too much work [12:47:37] miraheze seems like really the best option and im surprised it isnt a lot more popular [12:48:18] unless you want a community on your wiki, which if the game supports said wiki there wouldnt be need for a wiki community (or well a subcommunity on a different platform) [12:48:30] I moved from wikidot because the upper management is AWOL, the owner's gone crypto, and is looking for crypto-space investors for wikidot. absent staff is also not a good thing. [12:48:41] Should I start making a backup? [12:48:58] thats the case with the rise of nations wiki, its supported by the game’s owner + there is already a community on the discord server [12:48:58] [1/3] I still have contact w/ founder (who was banned on FANDOM yeah), but he hasn't been involved in wiki since 2019 I think, and the only remaining admin is a tad strange [12:48:59] [2/3] founder dude supported idea, my main concern was that the wiki will get booted for adult content, and then I burned out at some point and it stalled [12:48:59] [3/3] if I didn't, idk how I'd inspire the fans to reject FANDOM which is all over Google [12:49:20] I would literally rather have my wiki as a google drive folder than touch that rancid abomination FANDOM [12:49:28] No idea but likely not [12:49:40] good to do regardless [12:50:10] Honestly, since the November Wiki issues, I have done that alongside the wiki [12:50:18] I just want a platform that isn't Fandom's abomination [12:50:29] My wiki was affected by the November issue, hence my caution [12:50:33] that's how i found miraheze [12:50:53] I'd rather quit wiki-editing altogether if my only option was going back to FANDOM [12:50:54] isn't wikidot like a whole other software too, that would be a pain to migrate [12:51:04] yeahh [12:51:10] migrating from fandom is a pain [12:51:14] which reminds me [12:51:29] Miraheze and FANDOM are at least both MediaWiki [12:51:34] this but minus the first two words [12:51:43] i forgot that i got my friend who was helping me migrate to make a python 3 image fandom image ripper [12:51:51] I migrated from Fandom to a server hosted by a friend back in 2015 (when Fandom was still called Wikia), then migrated to Mirahaze back in 2022, because electreicity prices rose and my friend couldn't host the server anymore. [12:51:56] the biggest pain of leaving FANDOM is their policies yeah [12:52:04] i heard that the one you guys use uses python2 [12:52:15] Fandom wouldn't remove the remnant of my Wiki until 2020. [12:52:31] trying to keep an eye on the situation developing. i'd probably just opt to figure out how to privately host if miraheze goes down in flames. hopefully the current situation is resolved amicably. im sure donating to keep the servers alive would still be a good idea but unfortunately not knowing exactly what was going on is giving me cold feet on tossing dollars over [12:52:34] afaik, we usually use tools compatible with MW [12:52:46] like, Scribunto still uses a somewhat older version of Lua [12:52:52] rather than the newest one [12:52:59] fandom sent a “wiki representative” and i told this guy that the wiki is getting migrated to miraheze at a certain point [12:53:10] they said thats fine [12:53:15] Maybe seeing if the Devilman Crybaby subreddit wants to help could be worth a shot... Hm. (They're the biggest space I can think of in terms of Devilman fandom without going cross-language to the Brazillian Devilman fandom) [12:53:19] and it's noticeable how MW still ships JQuery [12:53:35] and told me to cite the reasons why i want to migrate the wiki [12:53:56] idk if theyll allow me to delete the wiki [12:54:40] I'm lucky my more "personal" small wiki got easily deleted because it basically had no audience [12:54:50] me realizing that i cant do shit i could do in newest lua when using scribunto made me scream from the inside [12:54:54] Likely not if it's generating money [12:55:04] 🤡 [12:55:07] i mean yeah lmao [12:55:13] i.e. people visit it and see ads [12:55:26] its a wiki about a fucking 6k concurrent players game which has 500k page views a month [12:55:29] I fucking hate Fandom lol [12:55:32] fandom is actually cancer [12:55:53] [1/2] what? [12:55:53] [2/2] do you mean you don't like 50k ads and three autoplay videos that you can't close? [12:56:02] If Miraheze collapses soon, then I'd like to say that it was a great 3 years [12:56:14] Maybe is better to vote on the Request about the Stewardship of John and keep all the other Sysops and SRE inside Miraheze and keep Miraheze functioning [12:56:18] No matter what happened I think that is unlikely [12:56:24] and giant shill spots for other fandom wikis i couldnt care less about [12:56:35] me when fandom disables the ability to edit abusefilters which either block users or remove their autoconfirmed status [12:56:38] I don't think MH will collapse... hopefully [12:57:03] [1/2] Part of the issue is that we have private correspondence that is bound by NDA for actually private? stuff, and this isn’t that. We’ve repeatedly talked about how private it is and although it’s restricted and we ask people not to share it’s not really confidential. It’s kind of just an invite only chat for some people that have been around a lot / incre [12:57:04] [2/2] dibly helpful people. Most of them are current of ex stewards/sysadmins but there’s been a few normal users in it over the years. [12:57:43] ublock + pihole ratio [12:57:46] [1/3] I'm very uncertain on this, honestly [12:57:47] [2/3] if too many users will support it would be declined as hyped up [12:57:47] [3/3] I will abstain [12:58:18] Also this is just my comments on it obviously can’t force people to trust me on this but for the most part things like what was quoted don’t get discussed like that there, I believe a few people were just venting, and I can’t say I haven’t done similar. Hell, I’m pretty sure I said a lot about ‘Amanda’ for anyone that remembers all that drama. [12:58:45] Half the time I’m in the chat talking about videogames or other non-mh stuff bc general just moves too fast sometimes. Otherwise people just talk about PRs and stuff because it’s easier there [12:59:10] That's fair but I would still reasonably expect some level of privacy regardless even in something more informal as that [12:59:30] hmmmmmmmm [12:59:57] sees Owen typing, runs away 🤣 [13:00:00] There's also a rift here now - I honestly believe two members of SRE will be leaving, it's just a case of which side of the sphere they land on, but losing either set will be damaging. One set is replaceable, the other is not to me. [13:00:25] i would love for it to continue. its great to have this space and i want to support it and help it grow [13:00:34] have you read all convo now? [13:00:47] [1/5] I donated yesterday march 16th. [13:00:47] [2/5] I think the better way to help on this in be on the community. [13:00:47] [3/5] Miraheze is understaffed. The staff are all volunteers like me and you who choose to collaborate and work for the better of all these people. [13:00:48] [4/5] Miraheze is already the best free wiki hosting that doesn't profit with publicity and the data of their users. [13:00:48] [5/5] Miraheze is worth saving. [13:00:50] And I have had messages in that channel - in happy for all of my messages to be shared publicly because I have nothing to hide and I'm not jumping to protect either side. [13:01:52] Miraheze 4ever [13:02:19] I mostly agree, and while I primarily don't think John should have pressed on the topic, the problem I have is that the guys basically opened the door to it by continuing the line of questioning [13:02:21] God bless this mess 🌼 [13:03:27] Just so we're clear.... so Mirahaze is here to stay then? [13:03:36] Yea [13:03:39] probably [13:03:42] most likely [13:03:48] It's definitely not got for starters [13:03:52] Yes, there is no immediate or imminent threat to its current operations [13:03:56] Likely would stay until ran out of money [13:04:12] But there's a problem tho [13:04:23] MH is understaffed [13:04:38] There are random stuffs that may occur [13:04:43] running out of money is probably the lesser problem [13:04:51] cough db141 cough [13:05:21] It is one of the biggest problem of MH [13:05:57] As the userbase is growing, donations will be easier to come by but it seems the number of talent who are willing to volunteer has not increased in rate as we'd hope [13:06:01] I was affected by it, and we eventually recovered. [13:06:50] convo so hot discord broke [13:06:51] I know what you mean, what I'm saying is that being understaffed and lack of update and staffing on the technical side would easily make more people leave, then running out of money would be the larger problem [13:07:30] android discord moment [13:08:22] Miraheze isn't going to run out of money in one day, people leaving coz their requests can't be handled on time or due to understaffing in case of a fatal error happening is the immediate issue [13:08:49] people are constantly funding [13:09:05] no real reality where miraheze runs out of money [13:09:45] That's if you didn't count the failed hardwares [13:09:58] true [13:10:11] and/or people who find leaking private messages, confidential or not, unacceptable [13:11:15] [1/4] I agree the understaffing is the first thing we should solve. And the power is in our hands. [13:11:15] [2/4] The people who knows how the technical stuff works could help with the technical stuff. [13:11:15] [3/4] The people who are proficient with community managing could be community managers or moderators. [13:11:15] [4/4] I don't know technical stuff but i could help on other aspects. [13:11:50] [1/2] i just didn't join the tech staff because i'm not a php dev [13:11:50] [2/2] my abilities with the language are poo poo [13:11:59] i suffer from javascript/typescript developer syndrome [13:12:41] [1/2] I think I could handle tech stuff, w/ some learning ofc [13:12:41] [2/2] the main problem is that I have no time for that [13:12:58] Same [13:13:46] most of my free time goes to do things to not go insane in unfriendly environment [13:14:18] I can just imagine me self hosting my wiki on the same PC I always use like a dipshit lol [13:14:35] Or is that common idk [13:16:56] Hello xxxl! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [13:17:00] z [13:17:03] zx [13:17:05] x [13:17:05] vxzv [13:17:05] zxcx [13:17:05] vzvzxc [13:17:06] xzv [13:17:09] bruh [13:17:11] Most sre work doesn’t involve php! Although media wiki development obviously does [13:17:16] I'm a C++ and C# guy, so not sure how much would I be able to help [13:17:23] [[z]] [13:17:23] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/z [13:17:31] koreawiki.wiki [13:17:37] https://koreawiki.wiki [13:17:38] dude stop [13:17:39] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:17:52] can we get an op here? [13:17:53] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:53] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:54] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:17:54] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:54] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:54] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:55] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:55] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:55] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:55] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:56] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:17:56] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:17:58] Fascinating [13:17:59] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:00] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:01] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:01] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:01] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:01] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:01] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:02] ... [13:18:02] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:02] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:02] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:02] ... [13:18:03] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:03] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:03] ... [13:18:03] what a nice timing [13:18:04] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:04] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:04] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:05] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:06] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:06] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:07] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:08] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:09] ... [13:18:09] I think the Discord side should purge a few messages first [13:18:09] ... [13:18:10] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:11] ... [13:18:18] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:19] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:19] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:34] <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> [13:18:34] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:34] https://koreawiki.wiki/v [13:18:35] [url] 404 Not Found | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:35] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:36] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:36] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:37] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:18:37] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:38] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:38] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:39] I smell a banhammer on its way [13:18:39] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:18:40] ... [13:18:50] xxxl the goat fr Idk what to say [13:18:59] not funny [13:18:59] lastmikoi: hopefully [13:19:16] FUK_U [13:19:17] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:17] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:17] Is it done [13:19:17] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:17] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:18] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:18] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:18] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:19] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:19] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:20] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:20] v [13:19:20] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:20] Oh okay [13:19:20] nvm [13:19:21] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:21] ... [13:19:21] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:22] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:23] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:23] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:19:23] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:19:24] ... [13:19:25] ... [13:19:27] [[klill [13:19:31] poor kid I've angered the little bugger [13:19:31] [[fuck]] [13:19:31] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/fuck [13:19:34] * lastmikoi pats pats [13:19:57] m [13:19:58] ,,,,,,,, [13:19:59] go ahead, let it out, you obviously don't have access to mental health help, we're the best you can get [13:20:00] mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm [13:20:03] https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/h [13:20:04] ttps://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/ht [13:20:04] tps://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/https://koreawiki.wiki/htt [13:20:04] ps://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:20:04] [url] 404 - File or directory not found. | koreawiki.wiki [13:20:04] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:20:04] [url] Runtime Error | koreawiki.wiki [13:20:06] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:20:09] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:20:11] 느금마 [13:20:12] 창녀 [13:20:16] I think I know who is this [13:20:22] wooo seo koreawiki lets go [13:20:23] go ahead [13:20:27] iam [13:20:32] kindly, once again, stop spamming [13:20:32] 2pc_official [13:20:37] yup [13:20:45] Why this Korea Wiki Wall Of text on the general channel? [13:20:53] !ops [13:20:53] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:20:55] this doesn't give you a good look [13:20:55] Oh didn't they get banned [13:20:55] search enginge optimization [13:20:56] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:21:11] can i find seoul in koreawiki [13:21:19] koreawiki [13:21:23] KR_WIKI [13:21:27] dude got banned in discord for trying to advertise in the recent news [13:21:31] are you guys koreawiki fans [13:21:40] it's a spammer [13:21:44] let me bring revi here so he can take care of this [13:21:51] i am koreawiki OP [13:21:54] <:LetHimCook:1081435886400589905> [13:21:58] would everyone else just start ignoring that guy lol [13:21:59] i love koreawiki [13:22:03] pretty desperate if spamming an IRC channel is the only way for them to get SEOs [13:22:04] <:EpicFaceMH:912930767972225095> [13:22:09] i dont have mod permissions [13:22:15] i cant kick or ban anyone [13:22:20] https://koreawiki.wiki/ [13:22:20] I think that's a tough ask given the content of the messages [13:22:22] [url] KoreaWiki | koreawiki.wiki [13:22:25] once again, no mods in this time zone, sigh [13:22:36] no mods in general in IRC [13:22:39] it’s 9:22 am mods asleep [13:22:51] korea wiki [13:22:55] it's 21:22 \:) [13:23:00] (); fuck ;() [13:23:03] 14:22 here [13:23:03] it's 16:23 [13:23:05] cP P [13:23:16] #include [13:23:20] 19 | Male | He/Him | Unleashing the devil inside me [13:23:20] stdio [13:23:21] H [13:23:55] added them to my ignore list, they'll get bored eventually [13:24:23] looks like it has been solved [13:24:28] btw been a while since I hung around here, how's the project going after the last two years ? [13:24:30] [1/5] Like others, I woke up to quite the buzz here, but am I correct in understanding that this entire kerfuffle was: [13:24:30] [2/5] • based on John's apparent revelation on for the IRC Group Contact nominations for Universal Omega, Reception123, and MacFan4000 that the private SRE group was being used to talk behind other people's back; [13:24:31] [3/5] • fuelled by John's release of private messages, which I am both glad (in the interest of transparency) and disappointed (because there is a reasonable expectation for messages in a private group to remain private) to see; [13:24:31] [4/5] • at the crux of the issue is a feeling of betrayal of trust by, well, everyone? [13:24:31] [5/5] I'm still trying to wrap my head around the issue, mostly to understand what I'm going on. Are the three bullet points above more or less spot on with my analysis? [13:24:31] [url] Community - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [13:24:51] Hello NDKilla! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [13:24:53] sounds legit [13:25:01] yeah, correct [13:25:54] d [13:25:54] z [13:25:55] z [13:25:59] ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ [13:26:09] CA resigned, and Reception voiced his plans to do so [13:26:24] WIKIJJANG [13:26:32] fuck you man [13:26:38] not sorry [13:27:13] So is this server just screwed until a mod gets online [13:27:16] @paladox woo [13:27:31] NDKIilla plz [13:27:34] help [13:27:44] I can’t op in #miraheze lol but paladox banned the spammer [13:27:45] at this rate we can learn some korean using whatever gets sent here [13:28:03] can you clean up message here tho? [13:28:19] The only Korean I've learned so far is koreawiki.wiki and I was better off not knowing it [13:28:35] oof [13:29:10] What was that spam? [13:29:14] you could say that Paladox is our paladin. 🛡️ ⚔️ 😍 [13:29:17] Geez! [13:29:27] John has resigned [13:29:27] hi polda [13:29:33] what [13:29:43] 🤔 [13:29:46] he just updated his userpage [13:29:52] [[user:John]] [13:29:52] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/user:John [13:29:53] [13:29:53] [url] User:John - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [13:31:10] Oop [13:31:15] bruh [13:31:21] <:OMG:1081436927825281176> [13:31:34] It seems that we're in a treat. [13:31:45] Grab popcorn. [13:32:33] Thanks for all the fish! [13:32:48] the plot thickens [13:32:58] he doesn't admit that leak was a mistake tho [13:33:02] it seems? [13:34:06] The so "leaked mesaage" caused 3 people in SRE quits MH [13:34:23] 💀 [13:34:28] Well, he always took the position that he didn't do anything wrong from the beginning, right? [13:34:32] potentially 3 [13:34:38] hopefully just 1... [13:34:48] Yeah, the way he phrases that resignation, he almost seem to be proud of the leak [13:34:52] ¯\(ツ)/¯ [13:35:07] I was expecting 1 but Omega quit this Discord server already [13:35:18] no one seems to be willing to give in on either side so welp [13:35:19] That's more than 1 [13:35:21] what to expect [13:35:29] yeah no real acknowledgement of the problem, he framed it as if it was noble of him [13:36:10] he believes that SRE for real would block Naleksuh [13:36:13] he did say he would reconsider rejoining if John left so I would not count him out completely once the storm passes [13:36:18] common [13:36:40] I mean, the volunteer who's message was leak, did [13:37:06] it was a vent tho? [13:37:08] That's kind of starter it all [13:37:28] blocking w/o any real reason ofc unacceptable [13:38:06] From what I have read so far it seems like John is generally against anything that would be conducive to forming an “in-group” of Miraheze volunteers versus an “out-group” of its broader community especially with regards to decision-making [13:38:39] everyone known this, he could ask straight question [13:38:48] make sure that won't happen for real [13:39:08] [1/2] I mean, I don't really mind anything, as long as Mirahaze doesn't go woke lol [13:39:08] [2/2] As long as it remains afloat and doesn't implement weird policies like Fandom did, I'll remain at Mirahaze as long as possible. [13:39:10] Yes. Sounds line John is White Knight-ing all of this situation saying he (John) is the only one who fights for the community and prevents the power grabs from the SRE who want to control the wiki [13:39:10] instead leaked messages discrediting both himself and SRE? [13:39:32] [1/7] I don't quite have time to process this yet as I need to get to work (luckily I'm working from home today; rainy and miserable outside so screw the commute), but just to add my 2¢: I do run a few other online communities, and in one Discord server that I moderate, several years back we did have a moderator who resigned over what he described as the private moderators channel being [13:39:32] [2/7] used to vent internal hostility over users that the moderators simply found to be annoying. I was one of the few who took his resignation seriously and pushed for more transparency, though there was no public release of any private message. [13:39:32] [3/7] In retrospect, I'm both glad that he brought attention to the issue, but also unhappy that he did not discuss with us first. I do make mistakes—catastrophic mistakes and lapses in judgement, even—and from personal experience, I have been grateful for people who have given me a metaphorical slap in the face in order to draw attention to the problems I'm engaged in before they boil o [13:39:33] [4/7] ver. The goal of dispute resolution should be to avoid escalations like a resignation—or what we're currently in right now. Had that aforementioned moderator took us aside (yes, me included), there was a chance that the issue could have been resolved. I was unhappy that he made no attempt and simply resigned without warning. [13:39:33] [5/7] Did the Discord server fall apart? No, it didn't. As unhappy as I was with the decision, I pushed for more moderator transparency and created public mod logs to prevent the shadowbanning we had been engaged in. It did lead to another moderator resigning as he was unhappy with the changes, but we did eventually elect two new moderators to bring fresh ideas and new perspectives to th [13:39:33] [6/7] e team, along with helping to keep a check on things. [13:39:34] [7/7] So, after my lengthy spiel: no, this is not the end of Miraheze. At least, I don't think it will be. Private hostility amongst volunteer projects is not unique to Miraheze, but it's not something we need to live with. [13:39:41] But we are still understaffed so we should put announcements in the following days asking for volunteers [13:41:26] what do these public mod logs include if i may ask? [13:42:01] im not gonna lie, i personally dont understand the push for 100%/near 100% transparency [13:42:08] they're not mod logs [13:42:08] I guess stuff like bans and kicks? [13:42:14] oops [13:42:28] I wouldn't advice for message logs to be public. [13:42:38] yeah my impression was message logs would be public [13:42:44] By that I mean deleted message logs. [13:42:51] the leak? guys jokingly said they'd block a guy who constantly gets into arguments here w/ other users [13:43:07] no i was responding to to koka actually [13:43:13] my bad [13:43:16] no worries [13:43:29] hah, that would kinda defeat the point of deleting the messages xD [13:43:36] [1/2] Veering into off-topic, but they included user role changes (to review additions of the mute role), user kicks, and user bans. [13:43:36] [2/2] 100% transparency isn't feasible because there will always be some sensitive information that does need to remain private. Our server has thousands of people and from time to time we do get sensitive information sent to us that shouldn't be made public by default. [13:43:52] ah gotcha [13:43:55] On a MediaWiki-wiki equivalent, that would be like checkuser IP information and stuff that needs to be OS'ed. [13:44:08] And it's spelled "k6ka". I know. People have been misspelling my username since 2009. [13:44:16] sorry just curious to learn since im also one of the mods of our wiki server [13:44:27] oof my screens too dirty to see that 6 [13:44:28] The point of deleted messages logs is that if the user decides to delete the message, mods will still be able to see it. So if someone posts something incredibly racist in the chat and then deletes it, mods can still ban the user. [13:44:31] thats my bad [13:45:05] Don't forget that members can still delete their own messages, even if they do not have moderator abilities. [13:45:24] Jesus, this is a shit show [13:45:28] John resigned all rights [13:45:32] amen buddha [13:45:45] I know I am a mod on a different discord server myself, but they were talking about people wanting to make those logs public [13:45:56] Yeah [13:46:00] Which is a bad idea. [13:46:09] well, can't argue w/ that [13:46:15] I would make bans and kicks public. [13:46:16] Do not have deleted messages public [13:46:31] Oh, I would never recommend making deleted messages public. There's a reason why deleted pages on a wiki are publicly logged, but the contents are not public. [13:46:31] That would be a serious privacy issue [13:46:40] okay so from what i understand: the co-founder of miraheze leaked undamning, private vents to the point where those implicated resigned and voted to remove said co-founder from the position? + there had happened to be a ghost ping + miraheze will still keep going for the foreseeable future due to it being properly funded [13:46:56] yes [13:47:01] basically [13:47:04] okay ty [13:47:29] eeenaaa [13:47:40] [1/2] well, I think at least we can say MH won't suffer [13:47:40] [2/2] while I personally I don't have anything against John (I don't think I've ever interacted with him), would be a disaster to have only a single SRE IMO [13:48:05] MacFan would not be able to handle everything by himself [13:48:11] 🤍❤️ my beloved 💙💛 [13:48:13] What kind of technical qualifications does an SRE need? [13:48:52] If you know PHP, you're welcome [13:49:35] btw, the people that resigned today outright stated or heavily implied they would come back if john resigned [13:49:36] I can't help with SRE because I don't know PHP/dev stuff, but if volunteers are needed for anything else, maybe I could help [13:49:45] If you want the more sysadmin roles (there are multiple roles at SRE), some experience with the linux shell is needed [13:49:51] Wth happened lol, I’m barely active with the community here and some bomb of a controversy apparently happened [13:50:12] hello take a sit, grab some popcorn [13:50:20] https://tenor.com/view/perfect-popcorn-michael-jackson-gif-26271837 [13:50:20] [url] Perfect Popcorn GIF - Perfect Popcorn Michael - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [13:50:22] [13:50:32] Time to teach myself PHP [13:50:39] Don't do that [13:50:50] It's like shooting yourself in the foot [13:51:06] I like pain [13:51:09] chances PHP will kill are never 0 /j [13:51:53] Well [13:51:59] This is interesting [13:52:11] I mean 100% of people who ever died, drank water so 🚱 [13:52:12] yooo [13:52:29] That's some wisdom right there [13:52:38] I'm just sitting in this discord since hell broke out [13:52:42] non stop [13:52:55] and greet people [13:53:03] had a lunch tho [13:53:40] AHH okay [13:53:41] I don’t even know what to think tbh [13:54:11] too much stuff for half a day [13:54:24] [1/5] I'm still trying to fully understand John's position here, re-reading his comments. I don't think he's explicitly stating that there should not be any private discussion channels; the crux of the disagreement, from what I gather, is that the line between what should be discussed in a public channel vs. a private channel isn't well defined. To be clear, I don't think it's ever been [13:54:25] [2/5] clearly defined in any online community I've managed or moderated. [13:54:25] [3/5] I don't disagree with John that a private "cabal" club that makes all decisions behind closed doors is a bad idea. I do think he's making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill, though. I obviously am not privy to the contents of the private channel, but from my own personal experience, both on Discord and on the English Wikipedia's IRC admin channel, not everything in there needs t [13:54:25] [4/5] o be private, but it's not a particularly "serious" issue. A discussion in a private channel about "Hey, we should apply for IRC Group Contact together so we can cover all the time zones" isn't something that needs to be in a private channel, but at the end of the day, it's not "overriding the community" because it still needs to be brought up to the community for a discussion, a [13:54:25] [5/5] s is ongoing right now. [13:55:31] As someone with access to the channel in question, I will say we come up with ideas in said channel, but ultimately we bring it to community to decide if its worth implementing [13:55:42] I can't disclose everything in our enwiki admins channel, but a lot of it is so trivial that I'd roll my eyes if someone complained that it should be in a public channel. Things like "Can someone keep an eye on this problematic user? I'm on mobile and can't block them.", or "Second opinion on my own revdel action?". [13:55:59] would anybody also be able to enlighten me on what an sre is?? im curious to know [13:56:13] Site Reliability Engineering [13:56:17] okay tyvm [13:56:24] That being said, on IRC there is a long-standing convention that you don't disclose logs without the consent of everyone involved, unless it's particularly egregious enough. That, I do not think the threshold was met here for John to release them. [13:56:36] Exactly [13:56:49] That channel operated on the trust of its members, and that trust was violated [13:56:52] I still don't get why the "harassment" has to be brought up in this discussion ... [13:57:16] Okay, so not at all unusual for pretty much every place I've worked at. Yes, worked at, not just volunteer projects. [13:57:21] different problem too, if he really wanted it to be addressed? [13:57:54] Exactly, besides that we just chat to each other and use it as a place to talk about our frustrations [13:58:12] leaked private messages have always been seen as a breach of trust [13:58:55] if it might just be a joke, no point in leaking them [13:58:57] We also used that channel as coordination between sre, and some of us to attempt to ensure we had information together to give out during the db141 incident [13:59:02] We did have discussions in my other Discord server about whether the moderator chat should be used to vent frustrations. I can't recall what consensus we came to, but my current position is that if you have a frustration with someone, it's better to address them directly rather than to gossip. This is hardly an isolated thing: it's more of a critical social life skill. [13:59:10] NotAracham made a page with common abbreviations used in general, that you may also be interested in then https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:NotAracham/Miraheze:AcronymsandAbbreviations [13:59:11] Yep [13:59:12] [url] User:NotAracham/Miraheze:Acronyms - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [14:01:35] [1/2] guys this is IM not on-wiki, no point in keeping your messages so long lol [14:01:36] [2/2] I've seen you guys typing for like a full three minute [14:01:41] [1/2] At my current workplace, each team has their own private Microsoft Teams channel for coordination, and most of the stuff in there is just stuff that doesn't need need to be private, but also things that are not applicable to others. Of course, this is an apples vs. oranges issue, being a corporate work environment vs. an open source volunteer project. The hostility issue could ab [14:01:41] [2/2] solutely still be addressed without releasing the messages. Even the moderator that resigned on our server didn't do that, and I considered him to have handled the situation poorly. [14:02:20] [1/2] Speaking as a guy who had his own community blow up due to venting instead of intervening on a user that was annoying the bejeesus out of half the community: [14:02:20] [2/2] Airing the venting for transparency's sake was very much not how you handle that time bomb, anymore than letting it blow up would have been. [14:02:28] "If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." [14:03:02] look it's not my fault my ADHD writer butt needs my sentences to be as un-misinterpretable as I can make them [14:03:16] (this was facetious btw) [14:05:05] So the reason for example, the db141 incident was coordinated was in private was to reduce panic, and attempt to stop misinformation, and give information to sre and a couple other volunteers to help answer questions [14:05:05] and the unacceptable part is: why on Earth did the self-called "whistleblower" first, ever, try to complain in private to the related persons that the behaviour is unacceptable? Or such, why is there a need to actually post specific context on-wiki? [14:05:19] Maybe we can convince Cosmic Alpha to return now that John has resigned and we can convince Reception123 to keep his hold on the resign so he continues in his position 👍 [14:05:52] I'd say Reception and NA are prolly staying [14:06:00] Hmm [14:06:07] CA we'll have to wait for them to wake up [14:06:10] dunno Avengium [14:06:35] Honestly, I’m hanging on by thread staying here [14:06:42] But i havent decided yet [14:06:52] i have to go now, but i will follow more the discussion later [14:07:08] And ive been here for 7 years so i have some time invested in Miraheze [14:08:22] What was "the behaviour" [14:09:13] I personally wouldn't count on UO staying, though of course we'll have to wait on that [14:09:34] see Community Noticeboard, in short, venting and talking (joking?) about banning someone who has been considered troublesome [14:09:37] So no we were not even told anything prior to the leak [14:09:56] Yes I can confirm the messages were a joke, and/or venting [14:10:22] [1/5] I can see why it would seem like a double-edged sword. On one hand, making discussions public would allow more knowledgeable users to monitor what's going on rather than relying on a post-mortem that they might slam as "not giving the full story". On the other hand, making discussions public would allow less knowledgeable users to misinterpret data, as they [14:10:22] [2/5] often do. [14:10:22] [3/5] Companies are often accused of not being transparent when they don't publish reports of incidents until after the fact (and are accused of "leaving out all the details"), but as someone who has a degree in technical communication, I can say that a lot of the technical details doesn't need to be in the official announcement that goes out to everybody. Plus, d [14:10:22] [4/5] oing the post-mortem allows time for the events that transpired to be digested. We know full well, in professional communication, that emotionally-driven communication is either awe-inspiring or a dumpster fire—anything but professional and rational. [14:10:23] [5/5] But yes, in this case, coordination in a private channel is reasonable and generally expected. With db141, you were trying to resolve a serious issue involving data loss, not plotting to desysop all local admins for "Interfering with Miraheze Network Operations". We're nowhere near Fandom's level of shenanigans. [14:10:55] Exactly. And even if there's a need to call out to the community regarding some behavioural issues, there's literally still no point in posting the content out on-wiki. Is it hard to paraphrase it and notify it without directly leaking messages? [14:11:35] Not to mention, context wasnt even provided [14:11:51] So it makes us look even worse [14:12:02] Exactly. If a full context is provided, I couldn't complain about anything regarding the whistleblowing [14:12:15] so i just got here [14:12:16] handpicking specific messages is literally the worst way to whistleblow, if that's what it is [14:12:18] what the [14:12:49] Well this isnt what I wanted to wake up to [14:13:06] indeed [14:13:07] [url] User:John - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [14:13:14] Agree with you K6ka [14:13:18] luckily on the opposite end of the world, happening before sleep [14:13:35] I'm more vulnerable when I'm just awake than about to sleep [14:13:52] Owen, think what you want, but dropping something from private place w/o context AND w/o looking up context of its content isn't professional [14:15:09] This channel, btw isnt new, its been around since at least 2018ish [14:15:19] yup [14:15:28] it's existed [14:15:40] it's just somehow become a problem now [14:16:05] [1/2] Just a gentle observation, but it’s probably best not to throw hypotheses in general on peoples decisions regarding their future involvement, it would probably be best for members of the community and the volunteer team that the individuals involved be allowed to determine that and make statements or speak for themselves instead of speculation. I hope a resolution is forthcomi [14:16:05] [2/2] ng and the volunteer team knows their work is very much appreciated, especially on difficult matters of sorting things out in moments like these. [14:16:41] Knowing what I know, we will lose people over this, good people [14:17:03] everyone were ghost pinged so questions will be there for some time [14:17:58] sadly yes [14:18:07] Ive not decided if I’m staying or not yet [14:18:39] I just know i’ve worked hard over 7 years so [14:18:56] Also context: `[[Special:Permalink/302355#IRCdiscussion(28January2023)]] [[Special:Permalink/324361#NoticeofBanfromthe#mirahezeIRCChannel,16March2023]]` [14:18:56] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/302355#IRC%1ddiscussion%1d(28%1dJanuary%1d2023) https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Permalink/324361#Notice%1dof%1dBan%1dfrom%1dthe%1d#miraheze%1dIRC%1dChannel%2c%1d16%1dMarch%1d2023 [14:19:17] wait what does this have to do [14:19:19] someone fill me in [14:19:22] That has nothing to do with this [14:19:28] Absolutely nothing [14:19:39] waiting till the SRE people wake up and say what they're gonna say is probably a good idea, before making any rash decisions [14:19:49] I know it isn't directly related [14:19:58] Its not related at all [14:20:01] but the context is [14:20:10] No its not [14:20:23] Fine, as you would say [14:20:50] someone fill me in [14:20:55] what happened? all i know is a ghost ping [14:21:09] See pins in channel [14:21:21] It’s one the reasons for my comment actually, it’s best for the community to be encouraged to wait and listen instead of speculation which can be detrimental to resolving things for everyone [14:21:27] Ghost ping was me, I'll write up something in a bit. [14:21:46] someone angered the db141 gods is what happened [14:21:50] jk that's not what happened at all [14:21:50] hi NotAracham [14:21:58] Hi. [14:22:02] [1/12] I have a few opinions on all this: [14:22:02] [2/12] Firstly I am a strong believer in transparency and I strongly believe anything said in internal chats are not explicitly private (for this community or any community). While I understand and agree with some stuff being private, like user data, back end and anything related to security. Chat's between volunteers in "public" channels are not private, even if it is locked behin [14:22:03] [3/12] d a certain level of permissions. On the other hand, conversations between two or more members privately (outside of any channels directly tied to x community) even if related to the community are private. [14:22:03] [4/12] That being said I understand things happen in a community by volunteer community leaders "behind closed doors" because not everything needs to be a public debate or discussion. These channels may be for conflict resolution or discuss ideas for the community prior to them being brought before the community for their input. So, anything said in these chats should not be 100% pr [14:22:03] [5/12] ivate, and should always be under the assumption that they will become public even if they are not meant to be public. There is always going to be a whistleblower if someone feels something has gone too far out of line and there will eventually be a disgruntled member who will leak said channels. This isn't exclusive to Miraheze, or public communities. I have seen other onlin [14:22:04] [6/12] e communities, offline communities and private businesses all have this happen to them in one way or another. [14:22:04] [7/12] So while what John did was not "professional" and I will comment on-wiki in response to John. I believe the reaction by other Stewards was over the top and unnecessary. There are ways to handle the situation amongst yourselves and the community. Shouting "Fire" in a movie theater is not the way to go about it. The announcement ping in a rash and emotional response, then delet [14:22:04] [8/12] ing it only added fuel to the chaos. To then go on about how this has "ruined" Miraheze. You are not helping. Seeing John say "Miraheze has had a long history of having a closed 'old boys' style club" makes 100% to me as even in my short time on here even I can see that this is true and the response by others, to me, confirms that. The contents of what John leaked was clearly [14:22:05] [9/12] made as a joke, and as stated before you should expect anything you say to possibly become public. Of all of the "private" conversations to be upset and resign over, this isn't it. [14:22:05] [10/12] This is poor timing to the donation campaign that just launched, and honestly overall quite upsetting. I will not vote in support for any Steward who resigns over this, and if John had not already resigned I would have voted in opposition to CA's Request of Revocation of Rights for John as that is honestly some low level pettiness to not only resign over this but to call for [14:22:05] [11/12] revocation of rights. I will be discussing this with other members of my community in which my wiki about, we have had this wiki for over 2 years and recently started to really push hard to preserve our communities history by adding it to our wiki. Moving it will greatly harm our efforts and will most likely kill the project. We would not want to move, and currently have no p [14:22:05] [12/12] lans on moving but we will continue to monitor the situation. Sorry for the long winded text. [14:22:06] Good day sir [14:22:06] woahhh [14:22:12] oh boy [14:23:23] omg it's literally called the cabal [14:23:25] Been that way for years [14:23:38] do you guys secretly run the entire world? [14:23:42] Respectfully disagree, but gathering my thoughts and will comment more fully when emotions have cooled [14:23:47] Yes [14:23:47] :o [14:24:03] I just hope that everyone who has volunteered in the past in demanding positions or is volunteering is aware the work they’ve invested has not gone unnoticed and is appreciated. [14:24:08] Again, don't say anything you don't want public [14:24:26] i'mma be back in 10, guys [14:24:30] [1/2] > This is poor timing to the donation campaign that just launched, [14:24:30] [2/2] kinda agree with this, I was considering having rswiki just cover the miraheze infrastructure costs and now I'm definitely going to let this settle down before we make any decisions about that [14:24:39] Well, when you think you are able to trust everyone in there [14:24:52] see DMs [14:25:16] I would recommend that the channel be renamed. I get that the name is a joke (in our moderators' channel I joking put "Remember: there is no cabal!" in the channel topic), and on Wikipedia we do it all the time. But we still name our channels in a non-joking manner, since it's the core of the channel's purpose. [14:25:18] Im not answering dms [14:25:43] Why rename a channel that no one sees [14:25:47] Its just a nsme [14:25:52] This is a correct read of the intent [14:26:09] from what i understand, in opposition to someone being promoted to administrator, someone posted private messages from that person. that doesn't seem great, but i'm confused about why it's causing such a stir. also, "nothing is shutting down tonight" is rather ominous--are there questions about whether miraheze will continue, because of this? [14:26:33] Well we are losing sre members [14:26:35] You make fair points and I don't disagree with what you said. Indeed, the timing of this kerfuffle is not great, considering we just launched a fundraising campaign, and fundraising is a large part about image, speaking as someone who's worked at a non-profit before. [14:26:48] we are probably going to lose multiple [14:26:59] So no idea how this will play out [14:27:09] I would recommend against speculating until folks make decisions [14:27:13] did you know the discord API leaks all private channel and thread names if you send the right HTTP request? [14:27:20] Yes [14:27:21] IRC-side people: Has John been revoked from ops access yet [14:27:33] I don't think so [14:27:37] I also know that its against discord tos to do that [14:27:46] Wikipedia has lost countless community members—even admins and WMF staff members—over more serious issues. I don't see this as the "end of Miraheze", and I would caution against screaming that the sky is falling down. [14:28:10] I wouldnt say the situation itself would end us, but if we lose enough people [14:28:26] [1/2] I hope the self-flagellating is kept to a minimum. This seems to happen a lot in all communities. Someone in a high position makes an inconsequential mistake that is blown way out of proportion, and either makes the decision to, or is pressured to, resign. This opens the floodgates of mass resignation and loss of community trust, all because of flaring emotions and bruised egos. [14:28:26] [2/2] The wiki for the game I work on is pretty integral to the game, so I was planning on donating, but I'll be putting that on hold for a bit now. [14:28:26] yeah, i'm rather confused about why an admin leaking a few private messages is causing such controversy [14:28:43] breach of trust [14:28:45] True: you can destroy a bank by getting everyone to withdraw all of their money all at once. I don't think that's what will happen here, though. [14:28:54] As having also worked for non-profits, I too know all too way about looking good while fundraising which makes all of this 10x worse imo [14:28:58] well yea, but the law isn't a form of computer security, just ask that one weird oil industry news website that wanted to sue firefox for warning users about lacking HTTPS :P [14:28:59] SVB [14:29:01] anyways wildly off topic [14:29:17] Because our trust was violated, our ability to have faith in certain people was smashed [14:29:24] trust violation [14:29:38] that's fair, it just seems to be blown quite out of proportion though [14:29:39] ie. John [14:29:50] Not really [14:30:15] See we only asked for one thing from the people in that channel, to be trustworthy, that was it [14:30:19] https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?oldid=324668 for fucks sake [14:30:20] [url] User:John - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [14:30:32] <×[ ¤ 𝐏 𝐑 𝐈 𝐌 𝐄 ¤ ]×#2007> Damn what happened [14:30:38] well, glad I never got around to using miraheze as a platform 👋 [14:30:46] hello member i haven't seen before [14:30:51] John leaving isnt that big of a deal [14:31:03] Who wants doughnuts [14:31:05] He was fairly inactive to begin with [14:31:15] Oh, don't be too concerned. Corporate in-fighting is very commonplace; you just don't see it because they don't have community Discord servers like we have here. [14:31:17] <×[ ¤ 𝐏 𝐑 𝐈 𝐌 𝐄 ¤ ]×#2007> I snoop, was mainly here for the database issue but stayed for convenience of updates. [14:31:33] This [14:31:52] Please keep speculation to a minimum and possibly refrain from it on main, because it could cause unnecessary anxiety for passerby’s who were ghost pinged until more information comes out from the involved individuals [14:32:06] there are some issues [14:32:16] I am an involved individual [14:32:21] Those were my messages he leaked [14:32:27] i'm aware [14:32:28] oh [14:32:37] interesting [14:32:51] Don't let the lack of ignorance—information being available rather than not being available—let you sway your perception that Miraheze is somehow more poorly run than more-opaque corporations. At the opaque corporate level, things don't get out until the company has to tell its investors that everything they invested is now worth squat and the company is closing up shop. [14:32:52] Without context of course [14:33:05] what does context reveal [14:33:15] That those messages were jokes or venting [14:33:22] Tbh [14:33:31] I took them as jokes when i read em [14:33:33] Probably nothing, it was clearly a joke [14:33:37] Even in the comments lol [14:33:39] and before someone asks if we can release the messages to show [14:33:41] again, John doesn't hang on general channel that mich to know how things are handled here w/o asking [14:33:41] we can't [14:33:59] John doesnt have access to that private channel [14:34:03] Even [14:34:13] he does IRC-side [14:34:15] the plot thickens [14:34:23] No he doesnt [14:34:39] he's an IRC group contact why wouldn't he have access? [14:34:58] <×[ ¤ 𝐏 𝐑 𝐈 𝐌 𝐄 ¤ ]×#2007> Idk the fine details but no organisation is susceptible to disagreements and questionable decisions, either by individuals or groups. I don’t think whatever this is will take a blow in the and scheme of things ... unless it really is that big and i’m being ignorant [14:35:00] Brandon, please, I’m not in mood to argue, I know for a fact hes not in the irc side [14:35:11] Infact there wasnt an irc side until like this week [14:35:16] fair enough, i won't push [14:35:21] Anyways, I must get back to my day job, but feel free to ping me if you want to ask me anything. I hope clearer heads will prevail. They have to. [14:35:25] it's been challenging on all of us [14:35:29] good luck [14:35:45] @ Prime - seems like wikis will be ok [14:35:54] might apply for moderator just to try and assist and restore peace somehow [14:35:56] anyway [14:36:06] But it lead directly to misinformation which is why the channel has been forbidden to be used again for such a purpose [14:36:42] are you reading all messages or just picking some? [14:37:05] anyone have thoughts? haha [14:37:12] The one thing that should be forbidden is sre having community roles [14:37:13] Yeah no [14:37:18] It should be one or the other [14:37:38] how far does this go though [14:37:40] just Stewards' [14:37:50] hello paladox [14:37:52] or also Meta sysop, GS [14:37:55] Thats a bad idea most of our sre are also our only stewards and stuff [14:38:03] Well I am the only sre member to not have a community role [14:38:06] Agent is the CES [14:38:12] yeah [14:38:21] Hello [14:38:22] and MH is stretched thinly enough [14:38:29] if anyone else were to resign in SRE [14:38:35] .... [14:38:50] [1/2] it’s probably best to discuss and launch a public announcement to go over things though, unfortunately taking things out of context happens frequently in all communities out of private conversations and the only way to keep people from panicking (from experience) is to address it as a team instead of in general as people come and go… [14:38:50] [2/2] hopefully everything can be resolved sooner than later so there’s one less stressor on the volunteer team. [14:38:56] John was the most competent person on the team. He was inactive which was a shame but he was competent [14:39:51] see DMs? [14:40:05] Huh? [14:40:19] sent you a direct message [14:40:32] I’m not discussing it in dms [14:40:54] that's not exactly what i wanted to discuss [14:40:58] but okay, sure [14:43:05] <:pupCoffeeMH:766487840694599711> [14:51:28] Well now, this has been interesting [14:51:41] not really [14:51:52] Interesting in a negative way [14:52:02] did you just get here? [14:52:03] As reiterated before, just a small argument between some volunteers [14:52:07] i can catch you up [14:52:18] I've been caught up by other users [14:52:23] ah okay [14:52:51] wb agent [14:53:01] i just joined really [14:53:03] !! [14:53:09] Welcome [14:53:40] yo [14:53:49] to both of you [15:00:30] Hopefully this isn't too flippant, but this isn't a particularly unique situation. Basically every internet community I've ever encountered has had some version of this "leaking private messages where people are slightly shit-talking someone" drama [15:00:50] It doesn't need to tear the community apart. Most other groups find a way to move on from this [15:01:41] He was one of the founders of Miraheze. [15:01:42] John being gone is the first step [15:01:48] we cannot run MH with him anymore [15:01:49] It seems like a couple of volunteers took rash decisions in light of something that, while definitely an issue, did not warrant the amount of drama it generated [15:02:13] I see some chat active lol [15:02:18] The project continues as normal and no interruptions to service will occur [15:02:29] As always, I'm here, stewarding and tending to requests [15:02:38] Straw that broke the camel's back I suppose [15:02:39] I'm actually writing a new guide on Meta [15:02:50] about what? [15:03:06] My advice is to try to lower the temperature and not make any permanent decisions about resigning, making this more of a conflagration, etc. It doesn't matter what side you're on really [15:03:10] looks like its not a great time to think about joining miraheze [15:03:28] I see Meta as a bit of a tech wiki. [15:03:29] It would be a shame to lose what Miraheze has to offer because you guys couldn't find a way to reconcile and everyone was just too mad to stick around [15:03:47] [1/2] seems like it has a great offering but... [15:03:48] [2/2] all this drama lol [15:03:49] As said before, nothing has changed on our service. The lone resignation today doesn't affect us in a visible way [15:03:50] In my opinion, meta should be used as a plain wiki. [15:03:50] things clearly cooled down since uh 11 hoirs ago [15:04:08] Each of our pages is full of exaggerated Designs. [15:04:13] oh yeah wanted to ask something, is there a way to manually add user edits if say i move over from fandom [15:04:35] it's less than a day of and already cooling down lol [15:04:40] okok [15:04:59] no drama of such scale occured since I joined in mid 2021 [15:05:16] Yes. If you move your wiki over from Fandom, if your username is the same on your new wiki as on Fandom, your edits will automatically get assigned to your user [15:05:32] If your username is different, we can manually assign edits [15:06:03] so the only issue if i move from fandom is basically, images and the original wiki still being up due to fandom policies [15:06:27] sadly yes [15:06:43] #elections [15:06:45] oh and [15:06:45] With images, someone might be able to help you [15:06:45] SEO [15:06:56] @CosmicAlpha why did he resign from SRE? [15:07:00] this is true [15:07:10] Adenin: because of the recent drama [15:07:27] You don't need to tag a person to talk about them in third person :P [15:07:33] Huh what happened [15:07:41] Alot [15:07:47] i see [15:07:50] What's all this talk about miraheze collapsing [15:07:52] If the wiki you're migrating from isn't very popular, SEO will be easy to catch up with [15:08:03] If someone explains the drama without exaggeration, I would be happy, and I am not a fan of prolonging the subject. [15:08:12] see https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Stewardship#John's_Revocation_of_Stewardship [15:08:13] [url] Requests for Stewardship - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:08:17] A few users made a rash decision to resign and it blew up out of proportion to users believing the entire project will collapse [15:08:22] its a decently popular wiki, its just htat most people come to read and not edit [15:08:30] Obviously it won't, I'm still here \:P [15:08:32] unless you'll convince them to delete it [15:08:36] Resigning about what [15:08:38] do you mind giivng me a quick run down of what happened [15:08:46] is this the drama? [15:08:47] Jfc what the hell happened??????????? [15:08:49] yes [15:09:05] ok Orange star, thanks. [15:09:20] im hearing bits and pieces everywhere thats why [15:10:05] TL;DR: A few messages were leaked from our private chat by a volunteer that, out of context, seems like we're bullying a specific user. Another volunteer felt that trust had been broken and resigned. The original user who posted the messages also resigned and others panicked and assumed that the project was collapsing [15:10:27] Evidently, we're nowhere near collapse [15:10:40] donations though [15:11:05] Well, hopefully our users enjoy our service and donate \:) [15:11:16] hopefully so [15:11:33] I see [15:11:35] Just chipped in part of my tax return lol [15:11:37] [1/2] thanks discord, very cool [15:11:37] [2/2] went offline a bit and message now seems out of the place [15:11:46] i'm back [15:11:47] thank you very much [15:11:47] Thank you so much! That means a lot to us ❤️ [15:11:49] something happened? [15:11:51] it is appreciated [15:11:55] (in the meantime) [15:11:59] see RfS [15:12:00] or CN [15:12:03] @Lake [15:12:04] [1/3] > Miraheze is becoming an environment where those in power feel an ability to hijack and get rid of people who disagree with them or threaten their own resignations to get a power play to get their own way. [15:12:04] [2/3] on [[User:John]] [15:12:04] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:John [15:12:04] [3/3] seeing 2 conflicting opinions now [15:12:05] [15:12:05] John resigned 🙂 [15:12:05] [url] User:John - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:12:19] I would like to add the messages john leaked were mine, and were either jokes or venting [15:12:22] john is wrong, objectively [15:12:29] [1/2] oh yes I knew this, lol [15:12:29] [2/2] I was here earlier today :P [15:12:30] Thank the Canadian government for giving me a ridiculous amount of tuition tax credits and basically refunding all of my taxes 👍 [15:12:40] wow lol [15:12:41] It ties into what I said, people 'threatning' resignation. [15:13:00] I see [15:13:04] and also the out of context messages where it looks like a user is being targeted [15:13:09] yup [15:13:11] Who else resigned other than john [15:13:17] UO [15:13:25] Universal Omega but I think he might stay on [15:13:29] that's about it [15:13:32] What, did John disclose personal information? [15:13:35] no [15:13:50] Well I hope miraheze makes a speedy recovery [15:13:51] Private messages between a group of what we believed to be trusted users [15:13:51] My trust in Miraheze is seriously shaken right now. [15:13:58] Just a few joke messages [15:14:03] Yep [15:14:09] I have used this website since 2020 [15:14:16] it's not about users personal data so relax [15:14:26] Ive been here for 7 years [15:14:34] i've been here for 3 [15:14:36] Time to pack your bags [15:14:39] i'm here since 2019 [15:14:45] there is no need to pack bags [15:14:46] mid 2021 [15:14:52] everything will be fine [15:14:57] So what's that about, a housekeeper shouldn't resign so easily. [15:15:06] Although my current accounts were made in 2021 and 2022 [15:15:07] yeah, I admit I panicked a bit at the very beginning [15:15:18] here's the leaked msgs [15:15:18] [1/2] in fact, it's here that I surprisingly learned basics of web, like HTML and CSS [15:15:19] [2/2] and now I work as a fullstack web dev [15:15:19] [url] Community - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:15:19] lol [15:15:24] April 2021 for me [15:15:28] Yeah, the severity of this was blown out of proportion [15:15:31] imo [15:15:33] So trust was heavily breached between a few of us, and so we reacted [15:15:43] I don't even see how telling people to donate just a few pounds is a bad thing [15:15:50] Nothing that directly impacts anyone except the people in that locked discord channel and the mentioned people. [15:15:58] ^ [15:15:59] [1/2] "I will be filing a complaint with the company against numerous people with whom they have agreements in place whether non-disclosure agreements which allow them to access sensitive information about everyone here or volunteering agreements in SRE. Whether that will go anywhere - I do not know but I do know that it will decide the future of Miraheze and it will be a futu [15:15:59] [2/2] re I won't be in." Oh boy... [15:16:03] totally unrelated, but how much capital investment in servers has been made for Miraheze? I see that the colocation costs went from £300 to £510 per month, but what's the value of the physical hardware (that I presume is owned by the company)? [15:16:06] Yes and no, John definitely should never have leaked anything, its a breach of trust and quite frankly, raises concerns [15:16:20] how did John have access to the messages [15:16:22] i'm curious to learn more about your infrastructure [15:16:27] Owen [15:16:36] oh [15:17:17] [1/2] I don't think UniversalOmega and especially Reception123 would resign this easily with such thing [15:17:18] [2/2] I imagine there were some sort of recurring conflict over time that just became public now [15:17:50] I mean none of us are perfect, we all say things that may not be the most professional, but that doesnt mean we deserve for it to be leaked either [15:17:59] I believe somewhere around £1500 is the value of our hardware [15:18:15] oh wow, that's all? [15:18:35] I wish Miraheze the Goodest of Nights after what happened today [15:18:36] Goodnight! [15:18:36] Shocking, yeah, yet with it we serve 300M+ viewers a year! [15:18:41] viewers or views? [15:18:47] Unbelievable things are going on in Miraheze. [15:18:49] Yes and no, I can’t speak for them, but I know for me, me and john havent seen eye to eye for yeats [15:18:49] views [15:18:56] #elections again [15:19:00] happy to assist if elected [15:19:07] No need to plaster your RfM [15:19:13] what elections!? [15:19:14] It's been noticed [15:19:17] so the overwhelming cost is just £6k a year in colo? [15:19:21] @Agent It is possible to see the development of Miraheze in Turkey. [15:19:29] Orange_Star: Discord mod election [15:19:37] Yes [15:19:39] can I vote by proxy /s [15:19:51] Turkey turned red (also thanks to my contributions lol) [15:20:01] If we used cloud providers, it would be double the cost I believe [15:20:04] i don't think elections is bridged [15:20:09] so probably not [15:20:14] [1/2] just a question [15:20:14] [2/2] how much bandwidth transfer there is on a daily basis on MH, on average? [15:20:18] (if you have such data) [15:20:19] up to Agent though I guess> [15:20:27] If NotAracham and CosmicAlpha don't come back, who will be elected as their replacements? (Mostly Global Sysop) [15:20:31] I meant giving a Discord user the ability to vote in my name [15:20:35] just a joke though [15:20:46] We don't really need replacements [15:21:30] In the meantime, if they don't come back, there will be no one I trust on these wikis and I will most likely stop contributing to Miraheze. [15:21:44] That's definitely an overreaction [15:21:55] i'm hoping they don;t [15:21:59] What's the total cpu+ram stats on the hardware fleet? [15:22:01] I hope, of course, that this will not happen and if there are no people I trust, Miraheze means nothing to me. [15:22:17] 1500 seems crazy cheap for all your machines [15:22:19] Don't come back or don't leave? [15:22:27] don't leave haha [15:22:36] CA and NA are amazing [15:22:41] would hate it if they left [15:23:07] harsh reaction but if the person you trust is not there, would you be comfortable standing there? [15:23:15] 158 CPU cores, 460GBs of RAM and 7TBs of storage [15:23:18] @Agent I believe John needs removing from local on-wiki rights? [15:23:25] as a steward you can [15:23:32] 7TB wow 😱 [15:23:37] Wow, that's quite a lot [15:23:38] I think he already removed them himself [15:23:48] global only [15:23:50] But also sounds like a lot more than £1500 in capital lol [15:24:19] I'm trying to guide myself off of what [[Finance]] says but I think yeah, probably off by a bit lol [15:24:19] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Finance [15:24:19] [15:24:20] [url] Finance - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:24:35] but we're hoping that if this fundraiser goes well, we can expand our servers even more [15:24:53] 1500 is what we pay a month for hosting i believe [15:24:53] We're transitioning from HDDs to SSDs which should improve speeds [15:25:00] £8000 is a little too much. [15:25:09] But the actual hardware is more i think [15:25:22] I seriously don't know if the Miraheze Community can live that long. [15:25:30] Yeah but I was adding the sum of what I saw on Finance that was labeled as money which was used for buying servers [15:25:33] We will be fine [15:25:37] let's stop promoting fear [15:25:40] it's not necessary [15:25:40] Please stop with this negative doomsaying or you will be muted [15:25:41] It takes millions of dollars. (According to Turkey) [15:25:41] does MH use Redis for caching? [15:25:43] Miraheze has survived worse [15:25:55] Wuts with the doomerism lol [15:26:11] We had a very similar situation a few years ago, and we made it out just fine [15:26:21] Incidentally, with the same users too [15:26:26] This seems too high based on the tables [15:26:47] We pay £1500 a quarter [15:26:49] It looks like it's 1500 a quarter [15:26:52] ^ [15:26:59] ^ [15:27:04] bruh [15:27:05] Thats what I meant [15:27:22] Ok, thanks for the warning, but I don't see any negative catastrophe or fear here. But is it sad for Miraheze, yes I understand your sad state very well. [15:28:09] Miraheze might need to refocus who volunteers and it might be a bit rocky for a bit but we’ll be fine [15:29:15] I still love Miraheze for this, even if I don't have the means, I will continue to support Miraheze as long as there are people I trust. <:Partyheze:999887629266993232> <:mirahezelogo:446641749142798339> [15:29:28] how so [15:29:58] Ive been with Miraheze for 7 years, I can assure you I 100% trust every current SRE and every steward with everything [15:30:04] I wish I could donate, but I don't have a PayPal account [15:30:21] there's github as well [15:30:29] actually they might've removed it? [15:30:32] i'm not sure [15:30:44] I have heard that there is PayPal in Turkey, but I would like to say that it is not a widespread money network here. [15:30:44] No we still have gh [15:31:15] You can also with credit card [15:31:36] I also don't have a credit or debit card [15:31:48] @Agent see DMs I guess [15:31:56] well now, your contribution of time is appreciated \:) [15:31:59] Burda birine para karar vermek/harcamak için ya kredi kartı yada IBAN lazım yada Western Union (WU) kullanmakn lazım. [15:32:07] for sure [15:33:26] Is there a page with the breakdown of every server's specs and what it's used for? Half a cent per core hour is really quite good but ~15 cpu-seconds per pageview (probably not fully utilized) is a bit underwhelming [15:33:47] There is [15:33:52] I don't remember where it was at [15:34:10] Because people have left [15:34:21] [15:34:23] [url] Tech:Server usage - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:34:27] I’m going back to celebrating my birthday [15:34:34] OH [15:34:37] Does anyone know how much wikimedia's monthly server cost? [15:34:40] HAPPY BIRTHDAY MATE [15:34:45] Probably in the millions [15:35:05] happy birthday R [15:35:07] Wikimedia are a whole other scale [15:35:11] Happy Birthday [15:35:43] I'm thinking about maybe just funding your infra with some of the RuneScape money, as part of a longer term partnership on wiki tech [15:36:01] Happy birthday! [15:36:02] But I want to understand more about the stack and what all those machines are actually doing [15:36:25] @RhinosF1 I congratulate your birthday from Turkey with my sincere wishes. I hope you have happy and healthy days. With love from Turkey. Happy birthday! ❤🇹🇷🎂 [15:36:28] happy bday [15:37:38] Birthdays are the best day for me, you are seriously lucky. Thanks be to Allah (God) who created us. [15:38:18] 🎂🥳 [15:46:01] are the memory numbers on incorrect? it says 10G memory on the wiki but grafana is saying 23 [15:46:04] [url] Tech:Db101 - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [15:48:31] As far as I know yes [15:48:48] I believe db101 is going to be decommissioned soon [15:54:41] do you happen to know roughly how many total pages or revisions there are on miraheze? [15:54:48] or the total size-on-disk of the databases [15:55:26] Alot 😂 [15:55:34] We have 6,000 wikis so probably a lot of revisions [15:55:58] I know, for example, Polandball Wiki has over a two million revisions [15:56:30] but it was migrated [15:56:39] indeed [15:56:43] but the revisions are still there [15:57:11] Alhamduillah [16:03:49] Elhamdülillah* (Turkish %100 lol) [16:14:39] what jst happened [16:14:51] *just [16:15:14] hi [16:15:16] well [16:15:20] a lot [16:15:25] ok [16:16:08] John gone [16:16:15] as a minimum [16:17:07] hey man [16:17:15] on the bright side maybe that guy at wikipedia wont hate us because its no longer "owned" by a WMF-banned user [16:18:34] why were messages leaked [16:18:37] like who leaked them [16:18:46] co-founder of miraheze [16:18:49] See the Community noticeboard [16:18:58] oh [16:19:07] John leaked some out of context messages which made it seemed like we were targeting Nale [16:19:13] i see [16:20:25] oh i just saw [16:21:20] lets hope i dont get in trouble for this but i cant say a certain someone didnt deserve being targeted for saying things like ^ [16:21:43] i purposefully used replies so the IRC side doesnt know what im referring to [16:21:57] but we know [16:22:18] everyone who active know [16:22:19] Let's leave it be for now. Folks are taking time to let tempers cool. [16:22:30] alright got it [16:22:37] sure [16:22:54] anyway i am logged in but this is happening [16:23:01] i made sure the logout bug isnt going on [16:23:08] but im still blocked for web host open proxy [16:23:09] Are you sure you’re logged in? [16:23:21] yes [16:23:35] ill try it again tho maybe its a one time bug [16:23:46] still going on [16:23:47] wtf [16:23:48] I think he accidentally hard blocked it [16:23:55] Can you fix it agent? [16:23:56] [[Special:GlobalBlock]] [16:23:56] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:GlobalBlock [16:23:56] [16:23:57] [url] Permission error - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [16:24:04] yeah the block isnt set to anon only https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/185.107.56.0/22 [16:24:05] [url] User contributions for 185.107.56.0/22 - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [16:24:06] There were recently some big changes w/ proxy blocking, hopefully Agent and Reception will have a chance to look into it in a bit. [16:24:11] kk [16:24:34] this is the IP im currently on [16:24:56] Strange [16:25:04] huh? [16:25:09] was he banned on WMF? [16:25:20] John is office banned yes [16:25:22] yes [16:25:29] A blunder he did when he was employed there [16:25:35] the more you know [16:25:39] at this point im not having too much trouble guessing what he did [16:25:47] Lol [16:25:51] I've unblocked you locally on Meta. It seems the IP was hard blocked on Meta only [16:25:56] alr i see [16:26:16] 🤔 [16:26:20] didnt knew that [16:26:51] @Agent i sent an apology to you in DMs [16:27:04] I only heard that "Miraheze was founded by WMF outcasts" lol (from Russian wikireality) [16:27:21] Not really [16:27:30] John was still employed with WMF when he got office banned [16:27:33] so he wasn't an outcast [16:27:41] and Southparkfan held local rights on a bunch of wikis [16:27:54] but what did john do to get office banned? [16:28:55] I dont know if thats public or not [16:28:58] Either way idk [16:29:08] There's a story floating around on why [16:29:09] something when he was employed is all i know [16:29:22] TL;DR: blunder which I think WMF handled too harshly [16:30:11] Well if it was something he did while employed, it likely violated his contract so a office ban would make sense [16:30:40] what does Miraheze use for parser-cache? [16:31:01] I wanna say we use redis [16:31:23] i didn't see any redis in the tech stack, but it's possible i was looking in the wrong place [16:31:43] given that IRC users can only see messages when they're unbanned im just going to write this and delete it: its not a tragedy that i have a month without nale [16:31:55] https://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/pull/5152 [16:31:55] [url] Try using redis for session cache by Universal-Omega · Pull Request #5152 · miraheze/mw-config · GitHub | github.com [16:31:57] somewhat i believe, though i can’t disclose details [16:32:01] still open [16:32:28] https://github.com/miraheze/mw-config/blob/ed41977b179b2425996a5b0fe1babf71f4f6587d/GlobalCache.php#L36 [16:32:28] [url] mw-config/GlobalCache.php at ed41977b179b2425996a5b0fe1babf71f4f6587d · miraheze/mw-config · GitHub | github.com [16:32:37] The channel is publicly logged - anybody can read these messages banned or not [16:32:51] oh [16:32:52] welp [16:32:53] too bad [16:32:55] ah it's db-backed parsercache [16:33:04] https://tenor.com/view/skillissue-skill-issue-gif-22125481 [16:33:05] [url] Skillissue GIF - Skillissue Skill Issue - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [16:33:22] i dont understand how IRC works [16:34:33] it can be confusing [16:35:35] @Colleiflower pressing the X button hides the banner [16:35:48] it hides all banners for the campaign [16:35:51] unless you have cookies disabled [16:36:00] in which case, you can disable it in Preferences [16:36:04] oh i see [16:36:47] regarding this whole thing….anything i can do to help? [16:37:06] also if anyone wants assistance with their wiki [16:37:13] i’m happy to help where i can [16:37:54] i have to go now but i suppose @ me if anything happens [16:38:08] Oh woah cook fancy seeing you here [16:39:12] hope everything is resolved soon, and again remember there’s no need to panic about this, it was an argument. it happens. miraheze will survive. [16:39:25] oh hey, been a while [16:39:31] yea [16:41:37] A sentiment I second. I still have faith in the project, regardless of whether I stay on. I'll say more later, when appriopriate. [16:57:19] [1/3] what is this even supposed to mean? [16:57:19] [2/3] > I will be filing a complaint with the company against numerous people with whom they have agreements in place whether non-disclosure agreements which allow them to access sensitive information about everyone here or volunteering agreements in SRE. Whether that will go anywhere - I do not know but I do know that it will decide the future of Miraheze and it will be a future [16:57:19] [3/3] I won't be in. [16:57:38] all i can tell is that he's trying to ruin miraheze [16:59:37] To revisit this, this guy keeps going. Agent has been incredible and bonked like half a dozen of this guys sockpuppet accounts, but hes made another and agent appears to be away from his pc at this moment. Can someone help please [17:08:09] Message @Galvatron if so i gotta get off my macine for a bit unfortunately [17:09:28] Dms be open [17:10:15] @Stewards [17:17:53] I’m confused [17:17:59] About what happy [17:18:28] Regarding…? [17:18:33] TL;DR overreaction [17:18:48] What was posted in #announcements [17:28:37] the founder of miraheze [17:28:45] leaked a bunch of private, confidential messages [17:28:51] to make someone they dont like look bad [17:29:07] and took it out of context and blew it out of proportion [17:29:14] pretended they were written by someone they werent written by [17:30:18] read here: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Communitynoticeboard#Reception123'sNominationforIRCGroupContact [17:30:19] [url] Community - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [17:32:26] Let's not remind people of the drama, please. [17:33:21] why not [17:33:21] they asked [17:33:22] tbf people are going to be asking all day [17:33:28] if not longer [17:33:37] it's better to deal with these things rather than sweeping them under the rug [17:33:45] ^ [17:33:53] time to delete #general [17:34:00] (jokes) [17:34:00] Based [17:34:12] It happened, no point in denying it, this will likely be mentioned throughout the weekend [17:35:03] Better not be because we're going to eat muted. [17:35:21] no one wants to eat muted [17:35:28] As long as the discussion remains factual and respectful you won’t [17:36:16] Hmmm, what would muted taste like... vanilla? cardboard? 🤔 [17:36:22] this is miraheze [17:36:25] It makes more sense if it is not opened at all, there is no need to make anyone talk. [17:36:34] nobody has really remained respectful or factual for a long time [17:36:41] Moldy cardboard with a side of expired milk [17:36:44] yeah well people areasking about it [17:36:57] How so? [17:37:26] In the effort to be transparent recapping what happened is expected when events occur, as long as people don’t embellish what happened or hypothesize what will happen in the future. [17:37:28] yummy [17:37:39] 🤮 [17:37:41] pinging the entire server in a ghost ping isnt respectful to anyones time and blaming wikipedia for john breaching his contract isnt factual [17:37:55] [1/2] you've been warned to be muted for writing doomy, panic inducing messages, which took place already at the very beginning of the drama [17:37:56] [2/2] just answering questions of confused people without dramatic accent is another thing [17:38:13] I aim to get a proper writeup together explaining things later today, ideally as objectively as is possible. [17:38:14] Yes in hindsight it should of been handled better, but at the same time, emotions make you do crazy things [17:38:57] I was responsible for the ghost ping, which will also be covered in the writeup. I'm deeply sorry for any panic that has caused the broader community, as warranted as it may have seemed at the time. [17:39:15] No one blamed wikipedia for anything? Someone asked what happened with John on Wikimedia, and we answered with as much info as possible [17:39:36] i am mostly thinking of the past [17:39:53] y'all missed korea wiki spammer tho [17:39:57] Look, it's like that, my messages may or may not be correct. But I can't allow myself to disturb people and create polemic. Those who want to know the event can talk, but right now, it is seriously exaggerated with my contributions. [17:40:04] i see [17:40:49] I don't blame you, I'm trying to explain, knowing that meaning gets lost often when we are talking w/ you [17:41:01] I may have acted wrong as a person who does not know the events, you are right, but there is really no need to prolong this topic. [17:41:03] I am sad I was dead asleep for that, I'm glad it got sorted. [17:42:08] No, anyone who wants can criticize me. I welcome criticism. [17:42:38] [1/2] Gentle reminder that this is a global community and at times where things are unclear but will be addressed later, phrases may be misinterpreted or misused when trying to extrapolate what occurred. [17:42:38] [2/2] Please be patient with the staff/volunteers and allow them to address inquiries when they’re available (time zone differences) [17:42:45] [1/2] it's okay, just - answering questions is a normal thing to do [17:42:46] [2/2] that's all [17:44:11] I was thinking to apply to moderator just to combat spammer tbh, because it's always happen when current mods are a asleep lol [17:44:18] Anyway, there's no profit in prolonging this drama. We just have to look at things like what we can do for Miraheze, how the development will be. When something done in the past is seriously prolonged, we waste time. [17:44:36] lol let's laugh let's have fun let's be good 🙂 [17:44:49] but this isn't being prolonged [17:44:58] barely a few hours have passed since this started [17:46:12] It's a stretch for me Orange_Star, I respect your opinions but I feel sad when I see these texts 😦 [17:46:45] we are not prolonging it, someone asked abot it [17:48:50] [1/2] people are confused because of deleted @/everyone message [17:48:50] [2/2] they will ask what happened, and we'll just answer without making it sound dramatic [17:49:05] [1/7] anyway @Zppix these are all very accurate and good messages to reflect Nale's attempt to demote Reception123 for what you wrote: [17:49:06] [2/7] > "just run DROP NALE FROM *;" [17:49:06] [3/7] > "I’d gladly risk my rights to block him on ever wiki I have advanced rights on" [17:49:06] [4/7] > "He can’t appeal IRC bans if we globally ban him" [17:49:07] [5/7] > "I’d vote a policy that says the cabal can revoke any right, anytime we want 😂" [17:49:07] [6/7] > "Thats when we OS it and it never happened" [17:49:07] [7/7] > "Fwiw theres not a snowballs chance in hell any of us would support it" [17:49:08] I hope you understand [17:49:26] Collei please stop kicking [17:49:27] not sure why John thought this was some great exposure [17:49:41] ok fine [17:49:55] that one wasn't at you lol [17:49:58] i know [17:50:22] LOL! 🤣 [17:50:44] can you kindly delete that then? or shorten [17:51:07] Me? [17:51:14] nooooo [17:51:25] Ha okey [17:51:31] it was @ collei [17:52:07] i shortened it to something more respectful [17:52:25] thank you [17:52:27] np [17:53:00] <:OpposeMH:775411033330155520> Oppose lol --Example (talk) 00.00 1 January 2023 (UTC) [17:53:42] How would you react if a user voted like this when you made a request? [17:54:10] I wouldn't even consider it [17:54:36] fortunately, RfCs and the like aren't elections, so I would safely ignore it [17:55:13] random SRE question: does anyone know approximately how many images are served through swift per day? [17:55:32] I'm trying to do some math on whether a different image serving architecture would make sense [17:55:33] What would you say if someone cursed? someone said "fuck" and gave it a negative. [17:55:49] people swear on miraheze all the time [17:55:54] I would post a laughing emoji [17:56:01] everyone here is at least 13 [17:57:07] 162 people used the word "fuck", this is the 163rd 🤣 [17:57:55] Considering the 1000s of messages generated a month, that's an argument that the use of f* is actually pretty infrequent. [17:58:49] thats fair [17:59:26] can you delete the message? People should not see the conversation as abusive. [17:59:58] it is not absive [18:00:08] I feel like I curse most tho I'm not sure lol [18:00:39] i curse more in private but try to behave more professionally here [18:01:25] You are definitely a frequent flyer of the 'audit log'. 🙂 [18:01:41] While swearing is frowned upon generally it’s not an offense as much as it is offensive - maybe making it spoilered would be preferable just to make it less jarring for someone reading through? Up to the poster, though. [18:02:07] it depends on language and culture too [18:02:33] which is the case w/ Turkey's understanding of things, it seems [18:02:48] I wouldn’t say it’s abusive though, a better term for it would be offensive to individuals who dislike swearing or profanity on main, etc [18:03:04] how do you start a discussion to propose blocking someone from meta and revoking their wiki creator rights for violations of the volunteer conduct policy [18:03:16] wait, you mean my messages do get deleted 🤔 [18:03:19] (just curious) [18:03:25] try posting at the CN [18:03:30] i might [18:03:35] not me [18:03:35] If that's not the place to post it someone will let you know [18:03:35] I know who you're talking about [18:05:08] I hope you’re joking @max20091 as discord does look for individuals under 13 and deletes accounts based on that (it’s against the Terms and Service agreement) you must be at least 13 or older to use Discord [18:05:10] Yes, the CN would be the proper place [18:05:24] A Steward would then evaluate the merits and either accept or decline [18:05:34] as only Stewards may revoke WC, not the community [18:05:44] omg Steward dictatorship [18:05:48] I mean, I'm not 13 too, I'm 28 lop [18:06:04] discord takes every possible mention of being under 13 seriously [18:06:07] this reminds me of the popular novel by George Orwell, 1984 [18:06:16] someone who makes genshin private servers got banned by discord and had to verify their ID for joking about being 12 [18:06:36] i DM'd @max20091 to delete the message regardless of whether or not it is true [18:06:42] happens more often than you’d think! [18:07:22] my personal opinion is that COPPA is misguided, i made my first discord (different account) when i was 11 knowing its against the rules and blatantly lied to everyone except for a very small group of friends who knew the truth [18:07:45] turns out there are more people than i thought who are underage and we never were in danger at all [18:08:40] This is like 1984 + Brave New World + Handmaid's tale + Fahrenheit 451 combined [18:08:58] despite the fact that they contradict each other [18:09:07] ah hopefully i wont break any rules about political discussions but with laws being pushed to make the minimum age to use social media set at 16 or 18, i don't know if i'll be around here forever, if it turns out that discord is legally required to ban me for being under 16 or under 18 or whatever i doubt i'll leave the internet, but i'll have to invent a new fake identity [18:09:58] How will they know if you tell them [18:10:02] Nah, it just alerts us to swears, auto-blocks would be things like straight-up slurs. [18:10:28] does anyone know who would know the answer to this? [18:10:42] to what [18:10:52] see discord side [18:11:03] ah yes, just gimme a minute /s [18:11:04] its a reply [18:11:12] [1/2] original question: [18:11:13] [2/2] > random SRE question: does anyone know approximately how many images are served through swift per day? [18:11:31] dont tell them what? that im fourteen? too late [18:11:43] not going to go and search through hundreds of messages to delete that [18:12:08] i've said it many times [18:12:25] Yeah age; well there's no helping that now with this account then lol [18:12:40] yes [18:13:30] Hi everyone, I just want to give my personal apology for everything that has happened. I have now officially resigned and been removed from SRE, but hope to stay on the community to help rebuild some inter-volunteer trust and transparency once again. I deeply apologise and am saddened by the recent events, but wish SRE and other volunteers the best in the future endeavors. [18:13:43] thank you, i understand [18:15:05] Unfortunate situation all around but thank you for all you've done for us [18:16:03] For my part, I will continue as SRE for the time being. [18:16:19] But tasks will be slow [18:16:38] i thought you were going to be demoted for your great abuses of power after zppix wrote messages that apparently you wrote /s [18:16:52] I thought SRE is mostly doing SRE stuffs [18:17:58] I mean CosmicAlpha only need to resign from Steward and not SRE [18:18:12] 🤔 [18:18:25] CosmicAlpha I wish you luck in your attempts at rebuilding trust, though the situation looks hopeless right now I appreciate that at least someone didn't give up [18:19:01] Cosmic isn’t a steward [18:19:12] As always, SRE is looking for new volunteers! [18:19:16] i have a lot to say in response but it'd come off as too uncivil for me to reply [18:19:24] If anyone is interested, please do contact us [18:19:31] you can email me then [18:19:32] (for those on the IRC side: that is a reply to orange star) [18:20:02] @Orange_Star: what is your miraheze username? [18:20:20] OrangeStar: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:OrangeStar [18:20:22] [url] User:OrangeStar - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [18:20:39] thanks [18:22:03] I am probably not in a place to volunteer, but I think it might be cool for us to work a bit more closely, and get a better idea of what your technical goals are besides feature dev [18:22:28] There are a few perf optimizations that aren't on by default in MW because WMF sets all the defaults basically, but that would probably go a long way for you guys [18:22:30] you can always help with css/js/html [18:22:53] [1/2] for those on the irc end i edited that to: [18:22:53] [2/2] you can always help with css/js/html and submit pull requests to github even if you arent sre [18:23:09] I mean, the part I would help with is probably high-level system design, but I can't sign up to be oncall or anything like that [18:23:21] but there are a lot of things, especially related to parser cache, that might go a long way towards improving performance [18:23:58] you can contribute on github if you want [18:24:18] but you dont have to be oncall if you're SRE, SRE is volunteers so it's expected they could be away when they wish [18:24:19] that's not really how this works [18:24:30] oh my bad [18:24:33] like, I can't just PR a massive rearchitecture [18:24:41] good point [18:24:45] it requires a lot of discussion with people who know your systems better than I do [18:24:48] @Stewards John needs removing from cvtwiki [18:24:51] Your help would be very appreciated! [18:25:00] as part of the offloading process [18:25:07] What optimizations did you have in mind? [18:25:45] A lot of these depend on the relative sizes of things [18:26:05] Like how many pages do you have across the network, how many revisions, what's the size-on-disk of the parser cache, how many images are you serving per [18:26:58] how are things sharded across db/memcached nodes, etc [18:27:16] you could bring it up on phabricator [18:29:22] @Agent changes need to be made to [[Tech:SRE Volunteers]] [18:29:22] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:SRE_Volunteers [18:29:22] [18:29:23] [url] Tech:SRE Volunteers - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [18:29:50] the biggest single one-line optimization is to turn $wgMFStripResponsiveImages to false [18:30:13] it will basically double the amount of stuff you can put in your parser cache. its existence is basically a comedy of errors from WMF and I don't think they quite realize how much of a mess it is [18:34:34] what even happened though [18:34:45] was it because of the donation banners? [18:35:11] What are you referring to? [18:35:18] the arguments in announcement [18:35:28] No thats nothing to do with that [18:35:35] oh [18:35:50] what happened [18:36:13] Private messages between volunteers were posted on Community Noticeboard on meta, the broader story is more complicated. [18:36:24] I'll have a fuller account later today, with any luck. [18:36:41] I would recommend that we disconverse about this particular topic as rumors will start flying [18:36:55] alright thanks for telling me [18:36:56] let’s all wait for the account by NotAracham [18:37:02] I recommend not doing that [18:37:02] alright [18:37:20] I don't like sweeping things under the rug, people should talk while there's still interest in this [18:37:40] yes but again, people are starting to build and spread baseless rumors [18:37:54] at the very least please don’t cast aspersions [18:38:31] if miraheze for some reason shuts down will we get backups of our wikis? [18:39:02] Sure [18:39:44] (if no one also delete the backups) [18:40:22] It won't be shutting down in the foreseeable future [18:40:25] And hopefully never \:) [18:40:43] 2093, 70 years of miraheze to come! [18:41:18] ill be most likely dead by then [18:41:26] Hey, same! [18:41:35] Don't be so pessimistic! [18:41:44] 120 year olds will be the norm by then [18:41:45] hopefully [18:42:18] Speaking of which you did lol, I think I saw 3 of them in the past week :P [18:42:22] CybAracham - they're a computer now! [18:43:34] Still nothing near as frequent as the Gluster era, but the point, it is taken. [18:44:10] Yeah! It was only noticeable because I hadn't seen any in months. [18:44:58] how are you still running phabricator [18:45:05] when i checked the official website it was shutdown [18:45:29] Phabricator isn't maintained anymore but we host our own instance [18:45:35] @Orange_Star: emailed as requested [18:45:55] wtf [18:46:04] There's a user called Ora [18:46:04] reading it [18:46:06] idk who Ora is but i didnt mean to ping them [18:46:09] and kk [18:46:10] i gtg now for real [18:46:11] cya [18:46:47] (Wait... I said "speaking of which" thinking the last time future Miraheze was mentioned was during the meeting but it was yesterday, I'm mixing up the conversations 😔 Reading this server too much lately haha) [18:51:32] [1/2] Hello, [18:51:32] [2/2] Do you know what day it is? It's my Birthday! [19:07:19] happy birthday 🎂 [19:09:48] ngl what happened today was kinda like a bank run [19:10:52] tl;dr minor staff squabble over misunderstood texts caused an entire panic that led to peeps panicking [19:13:01] Is the shortest summary for this thing i have read today. But remains true in some part. 👍<:DoneMH:775407710400675940> [19:20:36] i dont even see the large issue tbh, seems blown out of proportion [19:21:44] In retrospect, it was however, it's understandable seeing as this issue arose at midnight when most were sleepy and not thinking straight [19:35:23] quick question, is https://blog.miraheze.org/post/17/introducing_scsvg/ up to date regarding Miraheze's current infrastructure ? [19:35:23] [url] ✩ Introducing SCSVG | blog.miraheze.org [19:36:33] Yes. MH uses physical hardware now [19:37:35] Nice, that's neat ! I was in discussions with I don't remember who a few years ago about hosting a few VMs in my own lab servers at cost, but we didn't go further due to bandwidth concerns [19:38:25] I've checked the finances, concerned that the hosting fees could be reduced, I've forwarded the blog post to a swedish friend who owns a datacenter and hosting company, he might be interested in helping out [19:40:54] It looks like SCSVG is running G7 servers, and my own lab is G8 fully speced-out I got for 40€ a pop from the same friend as he renews old hardware, so he might be able to provide newer less energy intensive hardware, or even a hosting deal (although I suspect sweden is a bit far away if you want to be hands-on) [19:41:13] no promises though =) [19:43:23] does anyone know what the capital costs of the physical hardware were? surely that's $10k-$20k right? [19:43:37] That's very interesting, I hope something can come of this. Though yeah, we don't really want to have hardware located in an area that isn't easily accessible to one of our volunteers. Certainly doesn't mean it is not worth looking into. [19:44:00] About a tenth of that, if I'm remembering correctly. [19:44:09] Cook: If it's 20k I'm gonna have a heart attack [19:44:16] okay a tenth, pheeew [19:44:31] Yeah, $10k is like 2x our annual donations [19:44:39] haha, could be 20k for high end servers, but we don't have those :P [19:45:16] tbh if those G7 costed 8k a pop I'm gonna have to find your broker and make him spit the money back [19:45:35] you got 150+ cores worth of servers (even old ones) for like $2k? [19:45:55] how long had they previously been in use? [19:46:56] I really don't know. I only approved the budget (over a year ago now), and wasn't really involved with hardware acquisition. [19:47:04] Actually, checking the stats on the Tech homepage, it seems we actually have closer to 150 CPU cores [19:47:18] counting all cloud servers [19:47:33] I have 3 HP DL380p G8, each with two Xeon E5-2260v2 CPUs, 256GiB ECC RAM, over 8TiB HDD SAS, for under 200€ total. [19:47:33] I'll admit, it was an insane deal I made due to my strong connection, but still [19:47:33] yeah i counted 121 currently in use [19:48:02] that's a wild deal [19:48:13] It is, but not a 100x under market deal [19:48:26] they're OLD cpus at this point, even if they do have loads of core. [19:49:59] anyhow, it's a nice infrastructure, glad to see you guys went for IPv6 only, I've been pushing my hosters for ipv6 support [19:50:45] IPv6 is a really hard stuff [19:50:51] Heh, it's nice when the SSDs work with the dell PERC controller [19:51:03] hint: they don't like each other much [19:51:10] max20091: Yup, that's why I get loads of people asking me for help xD [19:51:21] nearly landed a few RIPE NCC certifications at the old job [19:51:56] Who would be the best miraheze contact for my hoster buddy ? [19:54:10] (he's on discord) [19:56:01] wave [19:56:45] ah, here he is [19:56:55] Make that e5-2660v2 Now 2260 [19:57:00] I can go back to my boardgame night, ya'll figure out how you can please each other /j [19:57:02] Not* [19:58:16] (ah yes 2660v2, I mistyped from my /proc/cpuinfo) [19:59:10] Well, at the moment, myself, Reception123 and paladox are basically the ones handling infrastructure at the moment, but Owen is in charge of finances. [20:01:04] Hello guys [20:01:19] Why can't regular users of my wiki upload images ? [20:01:49] Can anyone upload images? Or otherwise do you have an error message for us to look at? [20:02:12] Heya! Nice to meet yah. Well I mean, right now i am just thinking a nice discussion on what you are using and what we COULD look at might be enough. [20:03:00] That's what one of editors sent me: [20:04:25] Also what's about this ghost ping ? I seen in notifications that some resign from something due to something [20:04:32] But when I opened it it was deleted [20:04:46] Ah, ok, then go to Special:ManageWiki/permissions, select the group you want to be able to upload (`user` is logged in users only, what I'd recommend). [20:05:23] Right, there's no permission for images [20:05:38] Should be called upload [20:06:31] Nope [20:07:01] Thing is that nothing has been changed yet now people can't upload stuff [20:07:55] I'm kinda curious actually what the monthly cost for you guys are currently spread across. [20:08:01] If you want, we can create a thread to discuss this better [20:08:06] I'm seeing it listed under [20:08:07] [url] Manage this wiki's permissions - Vanilla Playground | vpg.miraheze.org [20:08:10] Sure [20:08:23] 90% of costs are the colo fees [20:08:35] Probably higher [20:09:20] O wait [20:09:31] First time I checked I didn't notice it [20:09:32] Thanks [20:10:04] 👍 [20:38:20] Is there any documentation / guide on how to move a (big) wiki form Fandom to Miraheze? [20:43:32] [[Moving]] covers most points [20:43:32] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Moving [20:43:33] [20:43:34] [url] Moving a wiki to Miraheze - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [20:44:00] If you need us to explain anything in specific, we certainly can [20:46:07] Thanks [21:31:45] honestly, this whole situation is a shame [21:36:35] hope you all get some good rest this evening and have as peaceful a weekend as possible :) [21:36:42] oh, hey axolittle! [21:37:18] oh hiya Fiddle! Nice to see you around :D [21:38:30] [1/2] leaking private messages from a channel where the description includes the text "this chat and things said here should usually not be mentioned outside of correspondence with its members" and then falsely claiming that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix and then threatening to file formal complaints against Miraheze is most certainly a [21:38:30] [2/2] "large issue" [21:39:54] it was talking to the board about the situation :p [21:39:59] in fact, similarly to the reasons for why John got fired from the WMF and banned from every wikimedia website, it's unacceptable and unprofessional behavior [21:40:30] and violates the trust that volunteers place in each other [21:40:31] Collei, please stop speculating on John's professional history. That's not a helpful topic at present and doesn't reflect on you well. [21:40:44] ok sorry [21:41:05] Thanks, appreciated. [21:41:43] nice to see you around too :) [21:45:42] however, the rest of it stands. it is a breach of trust to publicly leak private messages, take them out of context, and falsely attribute them to someone who did not write them. [21:48:01] how's your wiki editing been going recently? I don't think I ever asked which wikis you frequent? ^^ [21:48:59] I'm a bit curious as well, not sure where bukkit frequents myself [21:53:16] mostly meta and discord.js wiki, occasionally I do some cleanup one memipedia, but havent really been on there myself :p [21:55:25] ohh very nice! [21:57:00] yeah, havent been as active as of late because I'm trying to learn C++ because eh, seems cool [21:57:18] C++ is fun [21:57:41] eh, its difficult to learn but it seems pretty cool [21:58:02] I like C# also, and I think its a bit easier to learn. [21:58:06] evening everyone [21:58:16] and to give myself a challenge, i dont really know that much of programming in other languages :p [21:58:31] ive used C# a few times in unity [21:58:35] evening! [21:58:40] C++ is great, it lets you shoot yourself in the foot willingly [21:59:04] Anyway, just dropped by to see how everyone was doing. I'll probably drop in here and there, but not as active anymore. [21:59:12] "In C++ it's harder to shoot yourself in the foot, but when you do, you blow off your whole leg." [21:59:13] lol [21:59:20] does this server have any moderators right now who are not retired [21:59:34] na is sticking on [21:59:40] I still am an administrator here. Not leaving as that. [21:59:48] owen, myself, a couple others are carrying on as they were [21:59:56] alright [22:00:01] in fact there's not really any hit from the discord mod perspective [22:00:21] huh, moderator election [22:00:33] can't say where exactly I am, right now it's limbo [22:00:42] and nevermind it was withdrawn [22:00:49] indeed [22:03:33] This whole situation was really heartbreaking. [22:05:46] Yes, I'll be staying on, though I'll be taking today off for cooler heads to prevail. Thanks for your patience and understanding, all. [22:06:03] alright got it [22:06:37] And seconded on CA's assessment. [22:14:39] well bye again, stay safe everyone [22:28:07] do stewards accept wiki creation requests? im tryna be like that [22:28:24] stewards can approve them but usually a wiki creator does it [22:28:42] (randomly appeared again but im not gonna be too active until im done with some stuff) [22:29:23] stewards are most likely to be involved when standard wiki creators are not too active at a given time or when the request is particularly sensitive in nature and their input is solicited [22:29:32] yes [22:30:04] in my later tenure as a steward pretty much all of my wiki creations were covering for the gap due to dedicated wiki creators being inactive, despite having resigned the wiki creator role specifically [22:30:31] I shouldn't say resigned, I shed it because steward is technically inclusive of it [22:30:59] is it something that anyone could do? [22:31:07] seems like something i can do frfr [22:31:10] no [22:31:14] you have to be active on miraheze for a while [22:31:21] due to it involving deep understanding of policies [22:31:24] steward is a role of extremely high trust [22:31:26] You can definitely work your way there [22:31:36] If you want to help us out though, wiki creator is a great way! [22:31:42] i thought they were asking about wiki creator not steward [22:31:45] i am [22:31:45] its capabilities and consequences reach far beyond just creating wikis [22:31:56] and yeah, wiki creator is a plausible start [22:31:58] i feel like wiki creator isnt needed rn [22:32:04] thats what i think too [22:32:08] I'm not too familiar with you on-wiki which is where activity would be mainly assessed [22:32:23] I do think there is merit for tali to have a wingman/backup but you wouldn't have much to do for the time being [22:32:48] as ever the hurts are mainly related to skilled technical volunteering [22:33:18] tail64 is great but it's not a good idea to expect that all wiki request will be handled exclusively by him, many different things can come up that would prevent him from working [22:33:19] people who can address complex system errors, are trusted to handle such access/information and ideally develop features [22:33:21] imo there should be at least two people [22:33:30] there are several people with the bit [22:33:33] oh [22:33:35] my bad [22:33:48] each role page has lists of who is in a given role at the time [22:33:55] oh wow [22:33:56] tali simply leaves little for others to do [22:34:03] OrangeStar for MWE [22:34:13] personally I think when other volunteers have a boring job because it's being done (properly) things are in a good spot [22:34:15] well if theres a need for wiki creators i could certainly try to help [22:34:18] best of luck Orange_Star (irc-side) [22:34:26] wiki creation specifically is not in need [22:34:39] other areas of meta more so [22:35:09] im not very experienced with coding like .jss, .css or html so i dont think i could help [22:35:13] but much of it is tedious and requires a bit of creative planning that my interest in is limited and declining [22:35:15] meta sysop/crat are the only areas i can think of [22:35:21] maybe translation admin [22:35:24] jss, css and html are all viable [22:35:35] you dont have to code to help with non-technical things [22:35:36] what meta needs is not people with hats, it's people with drive to actually write and create things [22:35:45] true [22:36:13] meta sysop is a full list, bureaucrat is a very background role and ta is a negligible technical role that has little to do with the actual act of translation (something which is a problem and in need of review tbh the way it's done now) [22:36:47] I should clarify, translation itself overall is a bit of a problem because it cannot be credibly reviewed or held accountable in any easy way [22:38:11] documentation comes to mind as an area in which we are sorely lacking [22:38:51] i was considering MWE but eh [22:39:06] mwe is incredibly difficult to thrive in really [22:39:14] If you have PHP experience then go ahead [22:39:15] it's why there has been so much trouble actually getting it [22:39:24] if you do have that experience it's a start [22:39:48] It seems OrangeStar wants to skip MediaWiki Engineer and become a Site Reliability Engineer [22:40:11] but miraheze needs feature work, hacks, stuff that works and won't fall down, people with the kind of seasoning like CA to do that well and not result in even more bugs or setbacks [22:43:48] we need a dev [22:44:04] the issue with me becoming mwe is that i suck at ssh [22:44:12] go on linkedin and other job boards and put up a position for a developer and mark it as a volunteer position [22:44:14] easy [22:44:31] that's an idea that's been mulled recently I believe [22:44:38] if you're good with PHP and Linux, I'd reasonably assume you'd be good at SSH [22:44:49] [1/5] I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system components comprising a full OS as define [22:44:49] [2/5] d by POSIX. [22:44:50] [3/5] Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU which is widely used today is often called Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project. [22:44:50] [4/5] There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux [22:44:50] [5/5] is normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called Linux distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux! [22:45:00] of course you can only hope for so much considering people who are really that solid end up having everything they need to just do that and get paid [22:45:02] nice copypasta [22:45:11] and i also suck at php unless im looking at something as a reference, so will probably learn a bit more php before i consider it :p [22:45:12] muted [22:45:15] lmaoo [22:45:17] hmm [22:45:22] yea fair [22:45:23] #unsubscribe [22:45:31] well then, once you master that then you can aim for MWE [22:45:39] probably best to learn more and unsuck before going for a deployed environment [22:45:45] nothing wrong with acknowledging that and working up [22:46:32] though iirc if you got to a place where you feel you suck ish but can give it a go, pretty sure miraheze has a testing server where you can break/unsuck further before affecting live data [22:47:23] and from what I understand a good deal of what's needed is routine stuff that is difficult to mess up, and with more savvy developers on the line could eventually be automated [22:51:20] how’s brand control been doing [22:51:27] for now ill just keep doing PRs and stuff on Phabricator, I still make a few mistakes here and there :p [22:51:36] well thats still helpful of you [22:51:43] and very nice too [22:51:49] much appreciated [22:55:53] We can extract something useful of today. Maybe more people are willing to collaborate supporting Miraheze [22:56:33] what would that entail? any links to a description of the job may b? [22:58:03] I think documentation consist on making manuals or pages explaining something [22:58:48] What’s this “situation”? [22:58:59] pinned bb [22:59:14] Thanks! [23:00:15] that'd be something id be interested in [23:01:37] I'm glad to hear that. I think is an useful part too. Making help pages or doing some writing job is also useful [23:01:45] Soooo what I’m getting is there’s been basically been drama between people. Nice. [23:01:57] Basically, yeah [23:02:05] Overreaction is the simplest way I can put it [23:02:31] Ah, okay [23:04:08] I’m going to leave this server and come back with my main account [23:13:30] Hi, everyone. This is my main account. [23:15:59] so your main account is from 2023 but your alt is from 2016? [23:16:42] Basically what @Avengium 𓂀 said [23:23:51] Yep, I'd been intending to switch for a while and only got down to it last year [23:24:02] [1/3] How can we help on "documentation"? [23:24:02] [2/3] Also, is there a role for that? [23:24:03] [3/3] do you need a wiki group to do that job? [23:24:27] I used to manage the Wildbow Literary Universe wiki, at the domain wildbowiki.net. It seems its no longer there. [23:24:30] @Agent can we switch to DMs to validate my donation? [23:24:31] Has it been deleted? [23:27:06] Good time of day, everyone. I am here because I am a simple fool who knows not how dismissable site notices work. [23:29:31] You do not, anyone can make an attempt to help document using their personal userspace. Once you feel it is concrete enough to move into public spaces you can work with meta administrators to move it to the appropriate location. [23:29:41] An example of a guide-in-progress I still intend to write. [23:30:20] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:NotAracham/WelcometoMiraheze [23:30:22] [url] User:NotAracham/Welcome - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [23:31:15] [1/2] And an example of a guide covering the abbrevations and acronyms commonly found in the Miraheze ecosystem: [23:31:15] [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:NotAracham/Miraheze:AcronymsandAbbreviations [23:31:16] [url] User:NotAracham/Miraheze:Acronyms - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [23:31:37] no, it is not an overreaction [23:33:18] john leaked private messages that he was explicitly told not to share, deceptively misattributed the author, falsely claimed that there are attempts to harass naleksuh, and falsely claimed they were acted upon [23:34:24] he then resigned from the organization and said he would file complaints against miraheze with some unknown person or group for some unintelligible reason on his user page that i've read several times and still can't understand [23:35:34] ask on [[SN]] [23:35:34] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [23:35:35] [23:35:38] [url] Stewards' noticeboard - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [23:36:24] Dammit, it has [23:36:49] probably best to let the team work things out internally, I'm sure they're all up to date with events :) [23:36:57] Regardless, I've put in a request for a new wiki. [23:38:10] From glisteningsunlight. Could someone take a look at it? [23:38:24] Excellent! It was already accepted. [23:39:45] Any idea on how I could prevent SimpleTooltips template from showing up like this in visual edit mod? It's pretty annoying for me and confusing for new users. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:SimpleTooltip [23:39:45] [url] Extension:SimpleTooltip - MediaWiki | www.mediawiki.org [23:57:49] I dunno man, that sounds like an overreaction to me 😌