[00:10:48] I think Collei was thinking that "overreaction" specifically applied to the volunteers [00:11:08] I know! But really everyone overreacted on all sides [00:11:31] Or maybe overreacted is a bad word, it implies there's only one dimension [00:11:48] I'm not sure I agree with that but John definitely did. It'll be interesting to see what comes of his legal threats. [00:11:52] But I think everyone moved a bit too quickly without thinking, which is too bad [00:12:28] I think for whatever reason the image is not being parsed correctly [00:12:57] Like, I am not really involved with this community outside of a few very high-level backend technical things, but you should know that people in the wider MW world are kinda looking on in wonder at how badly everyone handled it, on all sides [00:12:59] I don't use VE but I think it should try to go to the wikisyntax (``[[file:image.png]]``) before turning into a HTML img tag [00:12:59] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/file:image.png [00:13:23] Supposedly they're not legal threats [00:13:31] they're complaints to the Board [00:13:33] Pretty sure SimpleTooltip is doing that, cause my template looks like that ```{{#tip-img: https://static.miraheze.org/stardustlabswiki/thumb/2/25/Tiplogo.png/16px-Tiplogo.png | {{{Info}}} }}``` [00:13:33] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/%23tip-img:Template:_https://static.miraheze.org/stardustlabswiki/thumb/2/25/Tip%1dlogo.png/16px-Tip%1dlogo.png_ [00:13:35] [url] Error generating thumbnail | static.miraheze.org [00:13:40] ^ [00:13:44] He didn't issue legal threats, that's a false narrative that's getting passed around [00:13:54] I misinterpreted [00:14:05] Not a narrative, that's my own bad [00:14:06] Not your fault [00:14:07] Hmmm [00:14:08] Literally everyone involved in the incident is overreacting [00:14:11] I saw someone else also mention that [00:14:11] maybe something in the extension broke over time [00:14:21] this is true [00:14:27] And good morning it's 8am here in Asia [00:14:28] I can imagine and I'm very disappointed with how this entire thing was handled [00:14:44] Any known alternatives? [00:14:48] I've been trying to do some damage control in the meanwhile [00:15:00] you can try a not-very-elegant workaround which is, wrap the image in a
and add the {{{Info}}} as the ``title`` attribute [00:15:00] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bInfo [00:15:09] My first thought there is if the img tag is being passed through a template. If the extension isn't maintained, a lot of the times that ends up happening where it just outputs as plaintext. [00:15:15] ``title`` on any HTML tag will create a browser tooltip [00:15:16] Got startled out of mostly hibernation lol. Hi folks! [00:15:46] This actually happens in some stable extensions as well, I believe YouTube is one? [00:15:51] I think [00:16:27] so actually this may not be the time but i'd advocate for a Nale lock [00:17:18] Hi there! Long time no see \:) [00:17:46] could you tl;dr what happened now? [00:17:47] ot [00:17:51] i only followed the discussion earlier today [00:17:53] er, it's been a hot minute* [00:18:06] Can't [00:18:23] who cares to be honest [00:18:34] well he does offer a lot of ammo for it [00:18:34] he split MH's entire system [00:18:40] exactly [00:18:49] we have more than enough to ban him on LTA [00:18:58] he's abused our kindness so much [00:19:12] never used that, so I should do smth like ```
https://static.miraheze.org/stardustlabswiki/thumb/2/25/Tiplogo.png/16px-Tiplogo.png
/div/div```? [00:19:12] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bInfo [00:19:14] [url] Error generating thumbnail | static.miraheze.org [00:19:20] That prolly wrong af but eh [00:20:10] [1/3] ```html [00:20:10] [2/3]
[[file:Tip_logo.png|16px]]/div [00:20:10] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bInfo https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/file:Tip_logo.png [00:20:10] [3/3] ``` [00:20:29] That makes a lot more sense [00:20:33] Booh me [00:21:28] [1/2] i usually just use tooltips to grab some attention of the user, on desktop [00:21:28] [2/2] because they don't work on mobile [00:21:37] (because on mobile there's no hover state) [00:22:11] [1/7] Big thing is almost done and ready for review. [00:22:12] [2/7] Micro-summary: [00:22:12] [3/7] -Private messages were disclosed without context and characterized as a targeted harassment campaign [00:22:12] [4/7] -Several people gave their resignation if a retraction didn't happen [00:22:13] [5/7] -I sent a poorly-conceived announcement to try to calm things down but made it worse [00:22:13] [6/7] -This all happened between midnight-3AM for most of the volunteers involved. [00:22:13] [7/7] -We're all very sorry for this nonsense, myself especially. [00:22:48] [1/3] oh yes [00:22:49] [2/3] I've seen that [00:22:49] [3/3] it's because now it seems something has happened with Naleksuh? [00:22:50] I use them rarely but in templates soooooo [00:22:58] I only followed up until John's Resignation [00:23:18] nothing has really happened with him that's new really [00:23:22] The IRC ban is unrelated and is due to altercations with community members on Jan 26-27 and the 15th [00:23:28] Just [00:23:29] aside from the irc ban yes [00:23:54] but that was dug up later on after the main flare [00:23:57] something needs to be done [00:24:01] oh i see [00:24:03] Meanwhile I'm feeling like the donation I did 3h before that indirectly caused it lmao [00:24:05] we've been so lenient [00:24:16] I have the worst timing [00:24:27] he is basically exempt from punishment because no one wants to deal with him [00:24:29] surely not I'd think [00:24:36] CBAN him [00:24:40] [1/4] From an observer's perspective: [00:24:40] [2/4] 1. John overreacted by misinterpreting the joking context, and then posted private messages on public venues without even considering disputing such behaviour in private first AND without the full context of what happened and why are people saying those. It accordingly wasn't even any of the three who requested to be IRC contact. [00:24:41] [3/4] 2. CA/R/NA all kinda overreacted a bit by immediately announcing their resigning. I totally understand the trust broken and the rationale, but if it isn't you guys that did something wrong (accordingly), why resign before requesting/reaching a revocation of the "wrong"? [00:24:41] [4/4] 3. Why is Naleksuh requesting to revoke stewardship from someone who didn't say stuff??? [00:24:41] not even jokin [00:24:43] sadly the case, nobody quite makes enough of a case in time for it to be relevant anymore [00:24:44] someone write it up [00:24:46] and do it [00:25:01] MH thanks for your immense help [00:25:01] 3: longer grievences [00:25:02] 🫡 [00:25:14] <:salute:952783741590319116> [00:25:24] he goes on including dropping me just short of by name in that post [00:26:19] it needs to stop [00:26:29] it does [00:26:36] Like literally with past experience here regarding Naleksuh (his almost racist comments against non-Latin usernames "not supposed to be eligible to" run for community roles) I totally even understand if those jokes were real [00:26:51] @Agent mind if I add you to a GC? you need to accept my friend req though in order for me to do it [00:27:45] Wait huh [00:27:57] dotting this btw, can DM once available [00:28:43] yes this is true [00:28:51] it's ridiculous [00:28:52] Why does he still have rights then [00:28:55] That's insane [00:29:01] very good question [00:29:30] [1/2] I'm still holding a grudge on this [00:29:30] [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1070935350916153345 [00:29:38] . [00:29:47] I'm never forgetting this behaviour [00:29:54] if I was to initiate a CBAN, who would oppose [00:30:02] just so i know whether it's feasible [00:30:17] I mean I think you've got a solid defense for restricting him [00:30:32] I don't see why anybody would oppose that unless they wish to enable behavior like that [00:31:03] want to help me write the thing? [00:31:30] I don't think I have enough knowledge to lol [00:31:32] Sorry, haven't been able to look into this because I don't have access to the PayPal. I'll ask Owen later to see if he can verify your donation, sorry for the inconvenience! [00:31:38] @Lake it works but now it skips a line (I guess because its an image) how do I prevent that too? [00:31:41] done [00:31:43] there's a gold mine in the talk page history where he prolifically removes messages concerning his behavior [00:32:03] Alright, DM me if needed, just wanted to let you know [00:32:08] Btw what's with "Legacy Donors" [00:32:22] Am still a GitHub donor why legacy [00:32:38] if the donation renewed as of late that can probably be updated now [00:32:52] just sent again because it didn't seem to work [00:33:33] well, probably updated whenever Owen is able to look into it I should say basing from above [00:34:22] Honestly I don't see the point in indicating whether donors are "legacy" or not [00:34:40] legacy is a thing which indicates the split in minimums required to get the role [00:34:50] just says "friend request sent" [00:34:50] I think it's a $10 thing and the roles update as of this fundraiser [00:34:59] but @Agent can better advise [00:35:19] Why even divide donors by their donating amount [00:35:24] nvm @Lake, found a way, sorry for the pings and thanks for your help! [00:35:25] Yeah, new requirement of £10 recurring donation or £100 single time [00:35:34] amount as well as when because again, minimum is changed [00:35:43] Legacy Donors indicates someone who donated before the requirements [00:37:13] @Agent honestly I think I did both lol [00:37:25] Oops I thought I was doing a reply [00:37:35] Hiya Agent 🙂 [00:37:58] It has indeed been, I've had my head in the sand lol [00:38:09] My donations are like £100 first time and $20 recurring currently [00:38:22] So yeah [00:39:21] The switch away from Paypal may be disruptive for some folks donating [00:39:50] Paypal is still accepted through multiple venues. [00:40:20] Ah, so maybe just a switch to a different platform for it then. Was donating through github and got a notification along with the ghost ping lol [00:40:54] Github cut ties (that was a them thing) but recurring paypal donations are possible via Ko-fi [00:41:04] Am never doing Paypal, the foreign currency exchange is just horrible [00:42:45] im bored, might make a skin based off of https://wiki.debian.org [00:42:47] [url] FrontPage - Debian Wiki | wiki.debian.org [00:43:00] (aka moinmoin) [00:44:29] Btw: does Miraheze have a CDN set up [00:45:02] i don't think so but i may be wrong so don't quote me on that [00:45:04] i mean it has https://static.miraheze.org [00:45:04] Craziness today. I hope y'all can figure out how to keep this unique, important organization running. [00:45:04] [url] Miraheze Commons | static.miraheze.org [00:45:17] huh, redirects to commons now [00:45:18] Miraheze will endure [00:45:31] np [00:45:38] i may make a tooltip gadget someday [00:45:41] which reminds me, i do not like this wordmark at all [00:45:43] Won't, just asking [00:46:01] I'm sure it'll be fine, and hopefully a matter of time until some folks return. [00:46:04] I do always wondered if Miraheze is slow because you guys don't have a CDN [00:46:10] We don't use a CDN service, we use our own in house caches [00:46:17] ^ [00:46:27] I don't think static content is usually the source of slowness [00:46:29] We have 2 caches in the UK and another 2 in Canada [00:46:33] Got it. [00:46:34] I'd like to get into the organization thing more but that will definitely suck a lot more of my time and motivation than I'm certain I'm willing to give [00:46:35] I believe the disk readings impact that more [00:46:39] Asia be like: [00:46:51] Most worried about cosmicalpha, as i assume he does a lot of important backend stuff [00:46:53] meaning Board/ [00:46:59] I'd the fundraiser goes well, we're looking to add caches to Asia actually [00:47:02] unless someone sponsors them [00:47:05] Oh, as a Canuck I should have known this. 🇨🇦 [00:47:21] I mean I'd defo wanna help but it of course depends [00:47:27] oop well Agent whenever you can I suppose lol [00:47:28] [1/2] honestly [00:47:28] [2/2] if we had more money, I'd see no reason to not migrate some backend parts to cloud services [00:47:29] Wikimedia sponsored a cache server in Indonesia for a while [00:47:30] no rush just [00:47:37] would like to get the ball rolling [00:47:47] it's been stalled for too long [00:47:48] Oops, i forgot that actually pings him on irc [00:48:08] he does.....he was our primary dev [00:48:12] [1/2] I think either Hong Kong or Singapore would do well enough [00:48:12] [2/2] (The good thing about both places is stable electricity and very low electricity prices) [00:48:47] on my website project, there's three CDNs on Asia (that my host provides) [00:48:57] I hear you, CA's work is much appreciated, as is everyone's. I'm of a similar brain tho, that I tend to unsubscribe from volunteer stuff if it gets chaotic or stressful. Somtimes a pause is all that's needed, sometimes not. [00:48:59] I think one is in Hong Kong, another in Bangalore, and other in Tel Aviv [00:49:54] We're probably going to add 2 caches either in Singapore or Hong Kong to improve connectivity in those areas [00:49:59] but if the fundraiser goes well [00:50:08] otherwise then we probably won't [00:50:12] Man, took forever to scroll back and read lol. [00:50:18] [1/2] I think there should be one in either HK or Singapore [00:50:18] [2/2] and other in Sydney [00:50:54] i think there should be 50 per country 🤔 [00:51:04] Lol after seeing how many messages there have been today, i didnt even try to read it all [00:51:10] If even plausible I would actually suggest having one in E Asia (HK/JP) one in SE Asia (SG/ID) and one in Oz [00:51:10] if you're jeff bezos... [00:51:33] not and never really been my field [00:51:36] If we could just get everyone who routinely edits to donate even $1 a year... Better if that was $1 a month (or more). [00:51:41] ah [00:51:45] cvt and organizing/optimizing the other community roles [00:51:46] in fact, here in the JS backend world crazy i know, Edge Computing is becoming really popular [00:51:50] including steward workflow [00:51:58] edge is like, the equivalent of a CDN but for non-static stuff [00:52:00] 3 cache proxies would be interesting but not even North America or Europe has 3 so unlikely for a while [00:52:15] Ultimately, of course [00:52:15] other things along with it including transparency, wrapping other community members into things and community projects [00:52:24] Yeah, that probably would have been wiser, but I had a zombie thing going on today... needed ample time to absorb espresso. [00:52:44] Initially probably one in SG would be good enough, if not then HK, then AU [00:53:03] Asia is way too big tbh [00:53:15] And remember to include AU and NZ [00:53:40] That makes the possible population wayy larger than possibly EU+NA combined by folds [00:54:12] I'd like to try at running a miraheze meeting sometime, if I got the energy to involve more [00:54:31] The current viewers coming from Asia are just such a negligible number unfortunately [00:54:32] We have established that there are surprisingly quite a proportion of East Asia wikis on Miraheze already [00:54:36] True [00:54:57] Though a full two second delay isn't good [00:55:25] Last I saw on Matomo, Asian users are about 5% of our daily traffic [00:55:47] Mind you Chinese users use VPN [00:56:03] Yeah, I was going to say, the Great Firewall [00:56:33] VPN traffic combined is another 4% of viewers [00:56:50] @Agent / @raidarr you guys have 5 minutes to take a look at something? [00:56:58] shouldn't be longer than that [00:57:22] Chinese Mainlanders probably make up 30%+ of zhwiki's active editor and readers but stats only read 1% [00:57:29] Don't really have too much time on my hands unfortunately [00:57:47] Stats are completely disproportionate [00:57:53] accept my friend request if you can then? sorry about bugging you about it so much btw [00:58:08] it just allows me to add you to the GC which would be helpful instead of spamming here [00:58:12] Oh john resigned? [00:58:25] Just saw the CN rfc [00:58:30] <:moonch:794697217826095165> [00:58:34] yes [00:58:57] [1/2] > Why is Naleksuh requesting to revoke stewardship from someone who didn't say stuff??? [00:58:57] [2/2] he probably thought that Reception123 wrote it at first and given his long-time personal grudge against Reception123 started a demotion proceeding because of it but couldnt admit fault after realizing someone else wrote it [00:59:15] which group chat [00:59:29] Oh wow, i was about to add a weak oppose, giving weight to his being a founder of the organization [00:59:33] just some random one [00:59:47] oh i see [00:59:48] nothing "cabal"-related [00:59:51] lmao [00:59:59] That's exactly why I think John's the wrong this time, posting stuff with 0 context as to who said stuff and why stuff said [01:01:23] ty Agent [01:02:21] Without reading the full context, it's hard to get an fullsome idea without reviving it here. I'd imagine that moving the discussion in general back to more mainstream stuff might be the goal right now. [01:02:39] At least, in general chat? [01:03:17] [1/2] If a full context was given that there is indeed actual plans to banish someone, I would say John could be right being the whistleblower [01:03:18] [2/2] No context and still posting stuff? Nah. [01:03:18] I'd suggest a thread perhaps but that would exclude irc [01:03:41] [1/10] i wrote this a while ago planning to send it if he starts another pointless proceeding somewhere (havent had the time to check if he did and im not responding to it right now i have more important things to do), but it represents my feelings about him: [01:03:41] [2/10] I've been told before that I shouldn't speak about Nale's behavior when he's talking about someone else as it looks like people are ganging up on him, but this is not about what he says to any particular person, but more about his general pattern, and, more recently, John completely believing everything Nale says. [01:03:42] [3/10] This started after Nale wrote an email to John falsely claiming that he has been "harassed" and "gaslighted" in the server (Merriam Webster defines "harass" as "to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct" and "gaslight" as "to psychologically manipulate (a person) usually over an [01:03:42] [4/10] extended period of time so that the victim questions the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and experiences confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, and doubts concerning their own emotional or mental stability" - keep this in mind). [01:03:42] [5/10] Nale has never been "gaslighted". He accused Agent of gaslighting him when Agent said that a message was posted in the wiki creators channel telling everyone to not approve wiki requests until a bug is fixed, not long after which he mass-approved every open wiki request and falsely claimed I told him to do it. It turned out the bridge bot had a bug - [01:03:42] [6/10] I never knew bots could gaslight someone. [01:03:43] [7/10] I also do not recall any instance of somebody creating an "unpleasant or hostile situation" for Nale. If anything, my first interactions with him when I was a new user felt unpleasant and hostile (these situations come to mind, but there are others: "You're the one being an asshole" directed towards me after he mass-approved wiki requests despite bei [01:03:43] [8/10] ng told not to and "OK, I don't care what anyone else says. This is Dmehus all over again" when NotAracham wanted to change where the bot welcome messages are placed). [01:03:43] [9/10] However, as a result of Nale's false accusations, John - without consulting anyone else for their side of story - leaked messages that he was told not to post publicly and misattributed the author. He claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix and claimed that Nale was being "harassed" in private - however, I do not understand how some [01:03:44] [10/10] one can be placed in an "unpleasant or hostile situation" because of private messages that they were never aware of and that were never acted on. [01:03:47] Yeah, I went back and read the whole thing, was much easier to understand that way. [01:04:24] 100% agreed with Collei [01:04:44] Without any doubt [01:04:50] all material that would be nice to bring up when nale inevitably pushes the issue, or if someone pushes it for him [01:04:58] either way the push was too far this time [01:05:08] thanks [01:05:11] yea [01:05:15] I just know I'm missing a lot of context, even having gone and read everything. [01:05:33] 'everything' is in several places and inclusive of a whole closet of dirty laundry [01:05:52] my own feelings before this are summarized on my meta talk page [01:06:04] which was of course glossed over as generic attack [01:06:13] Yeah, I found quite a chain of different things going on in different places. [01:06:34] as are mine [01:06:49] The main point being John was being negligent (maybe due to his inactivity or intentionally) of Nalek's inappropriate behaviours, and even if the jokes weren't jokes, those were still almost as legitimate actions to be taken [01:06:51] I managed to get through two double-shot latte's at an extrenely leisurely pace whist trying to follow all of it lol [01:06:51] the incident began at the CN then migrated to RfS [01:06:56] everything in chat is supplementary [01:07:00] *extremely [01:07:31] nale openly spoke of going to John over claims of harassment and such [01:07:33] Yeah, the timestamps showed the sequencing, was interesting. [01:07:43] he goes into detail on the second request to remove based on reception123 [01:07:47] Definitely inactivity related [01:07:59] I'd assume good faith for the former [01:08:03] He has a vendetta against Reception so this was a perfect opportunity [01:08:11] john looked, saw things he did not like and took the actions you see [01:08:16] yes [01:08:22] john really should have asked for input first [01:08:29] like brought it up in private [01:08:38] tbh I'm not sure he anticipated the blowback that resulted [01:08:55] or that there would be any, for that matter [01:09:05] Honestly if Nalek actually decides to post on CN, would it very likely just be a reverse card played on himself? [01:09:21] if anyone has a message or something that Naleksuh said or did that was in violation of the GCP/VCP/MSCoC [01:09:26] please send it to me [01:09:38] just look at his first messages that were directed towards mre [01:09:40] the "non-latin" discussion [01:09:43] lets just say it would instigate more than he could chew [01:09:44] oh yeah [01:09:44] that [01:09:46] privately of course [01:09:48] I never understood that, some of the behavior (of Nale) I saw as a complete neutral onlooker [01:09:50] if you have links on that by all means [01:09:59] at this point it's open season [01:10:02] i can't believe i even forgot about that [01:10:05] anyone have a link to this [01:10:09] I have [01:10:10] one sec [01:10:35] there's been enough that I've sort of blurred it all together myself [01:10:36] [1/3] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1086446244492230728 [01:10:36] [2/3] > I'm still holding a grudge on this [01:10:36] [3/3] > https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1070935350916153345 [01:10:47] at some point there needs to be consequences for nale, as agent has said he just is so annoying that it causes more problems to deal with him than it solves, but it's gone too far at this point [01:11:07] Perhaps one of the unfortunate things was how long the behavior went on for (and fairyly, folks were too busy to be dealing with it) [01:11:14] it's being discussed [01:11:16] we always found better things to deal with [01:11:31] had a vent from time to time and moved on [01:11:32] Yes, as an onlooker and observer, it did indeed go to far, for too long. [01:11:48] but tbh it's the largest mishandling since the apex case [01:12:06] eh i'd argue it's worse [01:12:08] apex was bad [01:12:10] not this bad [01:12:27] I think there's a general "benefit of the doubt" given sometimes, that perhaps some folks need a warning or two before getting their act together and behaving appropriately... but there's certainly a point where appropriate is a lost cause maybe. [01:12:31] well that one was all fucked up for different reasons, and we lost doug as a direct consequence [01:12:36] but yes, this flare out is probably worse [01:12:41] Also the fact that John called himself a whistleblower without even knowing the full context makes him the worst whistleblower of all time [01:12:54] nale has received SEVERAL warnings [01:12:58] *fairly [01:13:00] yeah, I had to think that was some rather petty whistleblowing [01:13:14] again, for warnings, check page history as he loves to deny their existence [01:13:28] Perhaps there needs to be a policy on how many warnings is enough, before escalation, frankly. [01:13:43] Volunteer's time is too valuable to be dealing with that nonsense on an on-going basis [01:14:04] in this case the fuse should have been shorter tbh, it only never ran out because he always managed to slink away before we were incentivized to go all the way and then other things would come up [01:14:06] cant believe i also forgot about march 15th now that i think about it https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1085766618241576970 [01:14:13] has this passed by and been ignored or has someone caught the link and the discussion context already [01:14:19] [1/2] All I'll say about Nale as someone who hasn't had the (dis)pleasure of engaging in much active conversation with him is that for as long as I've been on the Discord and reading Meta on any sort of active fashion he's consistently come off as extremely petty, asinine and prone to starting entirely senseless conflicts, to the point that I was compelled [01:14:19] [2/2] to block the IRC relay bot just so I wouldn't have to read his temper tantrums, even if it meant not getting to see literally any other IRC message [01:14:27] I think @BWM has caught the links so far [01:14:28] i have it [01:14:29] uploading now [01:14:47] if anyone has any more, again please feel free [01:14:53] this is also how i have felt [01:15:03] @BWM btw there's still extra context on the same day when I reacted slightly late to the convo [01:15:08] when you have people who literally don't want to interact in chat anymore because of the behavior you have something that is really cban or coc hit material [01:15:11] do you have the late jan stuff [01:15:17] I've seen outright hostility here as well, for basically no reason. [01:15:36] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1068414500379824128 somewhere around her [01:15:49] And some instances of extreme contrarianism, even when "behaved" [01:16:38] Being a nuissance to other volunteers a number of times as well, which surprised me. [01:16:41] Also: Isn't Nalek also the exact person who failed to follow instructions to stop wiki creation right after the 1.39 update? [01:16:45] much appreciated [01:16:51] yes [01:16:55] can't remember but it wouldn't shock me [01:17:03] and he claimed we gaslighted him because he didn't remember being told that [01:17:07] he's never been too close to the active core of wiki creation [01:17:18] a relic of wiki creators doing more of their own thing [01:17:36] I remember some discussion around him failing to follow instructions and breaking stuff [01:17:42] but no idea when it was [01:17:42] yes [01:17:52] it was one of my first interactions with him [01:17:55] i've DM'd the message link about it in private [01:18:11] I'm not one to generally discuss such (or people in general), I just tend to make observations about observed behavior. [01:18:38] And, I try to keep in mind that there might be a language barrier, cultural differences, misunderstandings and such. [01:18:44] the fact so many people have had distinct experiences including people who tend to get along with other users almost always perfectly is probably a hint something is deadly off here [01:18:58] i'm generally inactive [01:19:05] Same the main reason I didn't even up blocking the relay due to him, I think might be becasue he tends to do it while I am asleep at least, so I tend to only see it, after it is over [01:19:06] don't really know who he is [01:19:08] the recent RfDS only further proved Nalek wrong didn't it [01:19:12] nale got mad that we're allowing volunteers to have non-latin usernames so yes he's definitely a native speaker of a language that uses the latin alphabet [01:19:18] just came to the server as well, didn't you? [01:19:27] been on mh for over a year tho [01:19:37] because i doubt he would try to prevent people from volunteering if they are more used to a language he speaks [01:19:52] I'd say the issue is almost exclusively on meta, some of the wikis he operates on, and through chat [01:20:25] discord and meta are so hard to deal with when he's around [01:20:29] [1/2] you doubt he would try? [01:20:29] [2/2] is it my english or does that mean you don't think he would? [01:20:56] i do not think he would try to kick out volunteers who speak a language that IS his native language [01:20:57] I might have misunderstood the entire sentence so whatever lol [01:21:01] ohhhh [01:21:02] got it [01:21:05] yea [01:21:05] Yeah, after quite a number of negative or totally unnecessarily inflammatory interactions, Nale left a distaste (frankly I assumed them a troll) and I hit the "unsubscribe" (block) button and didn't look back. [01:21:12] So what I observed was short [01:21:14] misunderstood the latter part [01:21:20] yea i see [01:21:26] there' [01:21:39] s not a big difference between a good troll and a bad contributor [01:21:46] when i first joined he was just unbearable [01:21:54] still is [01:22:00] i just mastered ignoring him [01:22:07] Yeah, every time I saw them on there was a problem created. [01:22:12] Just wasn't worth interacting [01:22:16] to be honest I think he is sincere; and sometimes yes, he does bring valid things to the table [01:22:16] best times on miraheze discord so far are when he is IRC banned [01:22:18] Or seeing their comments at all [01:22:23] it just always comes with rudness or problems in general [01:22:28] sometimes certainly but they're always the most minor things [01:22:38] and then he will cause problems with them by as you said being rude [01:22:46] and just disrespectful and assuming bad faith [01:22:47] I found the best message [01:23:03] Thing is, to be heard and have contributions valued, there's such thing as appropriate conduct. [01:23:19] one would think [01:23:25] And not driving people away from MH chat when they are here to help or get help. [01:23:44] when SRE added hcaptcha instead of switching to an open source captcha he just got furious about it [01:23:44] https://tenor.com/view/youknow-you-gif-19056787 [01:23:45] [url] Youknow GIF - Youknow You - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [01:23:59] *she heheheh [01:24:06] oh i never realized that [01:24:17] can't hcaptcha be easily bypassed? [01:24:21] probably [01:24:27] recaptcha can too [01:24:35] but SRE felt that recaptcha was too privacy invasive [01:24:42] My biggest concern were the folks new to wikis that came in to get help, or find resources and kinda got a bad taste. [01:25:10] the problem with recaptcha is that it just broke [01:25:11] we're a free-and-open-source project (fandom uses a fork of a miraheze extension and that's 100% okay under the terms, anyone can use the code) so depending on google's software felt like a poor idea [01:25:17] oh [01:25:20] i thought it was privacy [01:25:23] and even before then recap had a lot of false positives, despite being effective against spam [01:25:29] it was not a privacy decision [01:25:33] makes sense [01:25:36] captchas are general nuisance at this point since people can easily bypass them [01:25:47] they cut down on the amateur spammers [01:25:48] there's the cloudflare version, which seems cool [01:25:49] and non-bots can sometimes take minutes to solve them [01:25:49] but captcha solvers exist [01:25:56] and hCaptcha, but it's not as mature [01:25:57] yes [01:25:58] hcap is easier for regular people but also tremendously easy for bots, forcing us to go into search and destroy proxies and botnets mode [01:26:14] I remember passing 20 Google captchas correctly and it just says please try again [01:26:24] captchas have literally prevented me from reverting spam before [01:26:28] I bet you I can go on a lock campaign right now by checking for bots that are trying to spam links [01:26:33] also preventing vandalism reverts [01:26:35] no i don't think so [01:26:39] send it to me? [01:26:41] i have sent it in a DM [01:26:46] got it [01:26:55] yeah, google was aggressive [01:26:56] it's in the same link I posted, just slightly down the convo [01:27:01] gotcha [01:27:33] off for the night in any case [01:27:41] pls don't explode while I'm sleeping again [01:28:04] Murphy's Law, raidarr 😆 [01:28:17] lmaoo [01:28:29] sometimes i dont want to sleep because i feel like something bad will happen in the morning [01:28:37] Moratorium on resigning and drama [01:28:48] it's 9.30am for me so no point for sleep already lol [01:29:00] this is literally me [01:29:02] but tomorrow will be full of drama [01:29:04] guaranteed [01:29:07] yuppppppp [01:29:08] tomorrow? [01:29:11] something big is coming [01:29:20] Uh oh [01:29:21] lulz? [01:29:24] found out how to solve it: [01:29:24] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Block/Naleksuh [01:29:25] [url] Permission error - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [01:29:28] LMFAO [01:29:31] Close [01:29:38] lmao [01:29:41] maybe one more? [01:29:46] (jk [01:30:00] if only... [01:30:08] yup [01:30:12] maybe not tomorrow [01:30:27] I expect it sooner or later but not tomorrow [01:30:53] gonna log off and see what lulz happen [01:30:54] Nah, captchas are great, they just need to be configured correctly. [01:30:59] bye [01:31:09] just duckduckgo `captcha solver` [01:31:11] ofc its expensive [01:31:19] so only persistent dedicated spammers use them [01:31:39] Which will not affect the vast majority of wikis on the internet [01:31:53] [1/5] actually @Colleiflower I liked this convo a lot [01:31:54] [2/5] > Strongest oppose Reception123 didn't write those messages, as OrangeStar said. Try to pay a bit more attention from now on before slandering volunteers. Collei (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2023 (UTC) [01:31:54] [3/5] > \> Can you highlight where in this request I said that Reception123 wrote them? Nowhere. I was considering withdrawing the request but I certainly will not now that you claim I am "not paying attention' and "slandering volunteers" Naleksuh (talk) 17:47, 17 March 2023 (UTC) [01:31:54] [4/5] > \> \> I generally assumed that the evidence quoted in a demotion proceeding is related to the person you are proposing to be demoted. Collei (talk) 17:54, 17 March 2023 (UTC) [01:31:55] [5/5] > \> \> \> No I'm documenting the issue as a whole. But if nobody will read it then nothing I can do to stop it. Naleksuh (talk) 17:56, 17 March 2023 (UTC) [01:32:28] lmao yea [01:32:35] y'know [01:32:41] generally when posting a revocation [01:32:46] i write about the user [01:32:56] so like if i was revoking naleksuh or something [01:33:00] Like requesting for a RfDS on someone who didn't do stuff and "for a general issue" that someone didn't do? Sounds like the least rational thing to do [01:33:03] i'd talk about naleksuh [01:33:21] "Hello everyone. Today I propose we impeach Joe Biden. As you can see, Donald Trump's actions are completely unacceptable. As such, Joe Biden must be removed from office immediately." [01:33:22] not Zppix or Void or John or the bureaucrat of amazing youtubers wiki [01:33:51] lmao [01:33:52] I did think it was odd he went on a rant about the injustice of the rest of the community against John [01:34:10] lmao yea [01:34:41] [1/2] This is about the meanest thing I've ever said in a wiki context. Fwiw I have been involved in wikis since 2007 and this is the most frustrating single interaction I've ever had, and this user was already on my radar as problematic. And I'm not here that much! (Conversely, literally everyone else I've interacted with on here has been nothing [01:34:42] [2/2] but helpful and kind.) The flippancy accusations and extraordinary bad faith to someone earnestly trying to make a report was just infuriating [01:35:12] life is too hectic when Naleksuh is involved [01:36:09] On first read, I kinda assumed maybe they knew each other? My critical thinking brain asked, else go after perfectly valid team frustration about someone who has been frankly a community nuisance? [01:36:14] But I don't know enough [01:36:42] Also on the WMFBAN on John. Sounds like nothing has changed on him huh [01:36:49] And not enough context. [01:36:54] notaracham told me to not discuss that [01:37:08] gotcha [01:37:17] i'll be back in 5 [01:37:19] So, I can't make conclusions and am witholding voting. [01:37:23] gotta concentrate here [01:37:30] alright [01:37:32] I believe the RfS has been closed [01:37:45] Yeah, I see that, though there are subsequent ones that relate [01:37:45] I mean @Colleiflower as long as you got what I'm trying to say that's sufficient [01:37:56] yea [01:39:14] Sheesh, sorry to hear you had to deal with that. [01:41:16] See, this is why I wouldn't blame some from unsubscribing/resigning. Life is too short to deal with this kind of frustration or have it defended as acceptable community behavior. [01:41:32] that's why Naleksuh will be bye bye soon [01:41:36] it's too hard to deal with [01:41:42] and he makes it hell for the rest of us [01:41:46] yes [01:41:48] Yep [01:41:49] nale needs to go [01:41:52] we shouldn't have to suffer because of his idiocy [01:42:07] even when he has a valid point he is rude and annoying when explaining it [01:42:09] and sure, it may be harsh, but i don't really care. he's hurt a lot of people. [01:42:41] you might wanna choose another word regardless, no need to find points for them to catch on [01:42:55] fixed i suppose [01:42:58] This is what makes me think maybe there should be a strong policy to prevent this kind of thing from going on so long, and then later boiling over due to a complete lack of someone's personal context. [01:43:21] there's almost no way to codify what happened with Nale [01:43:26] i am sorry if i misgendered them again in these posts but they have had no objections to he/him pronouns for a while so i dont understand why this becomes an issue for them now [01:43:27] it's a one in a million chanc e [01:43:46] Someone being a continued nuisance? [01:43:48] i don't believe he's objected to it [01:43:57] in this manner yes [01:43:59] no they did on agent's talk page [01:44:06] when complaining about how agent hasn't admitted to gaslighting them [01:44:10] also there's no way to codify "continued nuisance" [01:44:14] but never made any objections after that [01:44:18] if they transitioned or something thats the first i've heard of it [01:44:43] wikipedia used to have a a "don't be a dick rule" but removed it because they wanted to make things more professional [01:45:03] where [01:45:08] one second [01:45:36] here: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Usertalk:AgentIsai/Archive3#Civility&_honesty [01:45:37] [url] User - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [01:45:46] > I will also assume that you did not check my account settings before referring to me with he/him pronouns, and did not intentionally use them. [01:45:54] why would agent check their account settings???? [01:46:05] Conduct unbecoming a community volunteer... 🤔 [01:46:23] {{GENDER}} is only on-wiki smh [01:46:23] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:GENDER [01:46:24] [01:46:25] [url] Creating GENDER - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [01:46:39] duh, forgot about adding a zwsp [01:46:59] there is a code of conduct that requires basic civility i think [01:47:06] for volunteers and others [01:47:08] There is [01:47:42] yes [01:47:51] as we can all see nale violated it [01:48:04] Yeah, I'd think that at the very least, swearing and names directed at people, like someone an arsehole... unfounded accusations, exhibiting a pattern of repeatedly rude, derisive, dismissive or argumentative behavior while executing duties etc etc. [01:48:17] yes [01:48:27] How's everyone doing? [01:48:32] better [01:48:37] Good morning Cosmic [01:48:38] Yep ^ [01:48:40] hah @CosmicAlpha i’ll catch you up [01:48:44] Good day CA! [01:48:47] or, good evening [01:48:55] totally forgot about timezones didn't I [01:49:01] if anything i'm surprised nale hasn't started a thread somewhere proposing to block or demote someone they don't like [01:49:48] I think it just took folks too long to get a complete picture. [01:50:05] Folks can't be on all the time to see it all, or read it all. [01:50:59] it has been known for a long time [01:51:00] Beer for you when it's the right hour for it CA 🍺 [01:51:07] but they've just been way too annoying to deal with [01:52:27] Yeah, I frankly wondered why they didn't get voted off the island a loooooong time ago. [01:52:43] according to agent and others it's just an annoyance [01:52:52] the leaked messages were a reflection of what volunteers have to deal with [01:53:11] not of a hatred towards nale but a reflection of him doing weird rude shit [01:53:37] I don't like to get involved in stuff, but next time I'll be asking the question to the team in private. They're busy, they probably didn't see just how many general users were subject to the behavior. [01:53:46] no [01:53:47] the team knows [01:53:59] when i brought it up i was told its a known recurring issue [01:54:02] Yeah, but I'm talking like... their first few interactions here. [01:54:04] and that they do not know the best solution to it [01:54:07] or whatever [01:54:13] It set my spidey senses off lol [01:54:23] yeah i see [01:54:32] my first interactions with nale was also unpleasant [01:55:10] I don't think I even had an interaction with them, was just going by their behaviors towards others. [01:55:18] yeah i see [01:55:48] I have a tendency to see it coming a mile away. [01:55:59] We are very very aware of nale’s behavioral issues [01:56:19] I've been gone for months though.. it is just coming to a head now? [01:56:22] nale can't say "Why are we using hCaptcha instead of an open source captcha?", they have to say "Reception123 is a dictator that's trying to take over our captcha consensus!" [01:56:28] Unfortunately only 1 of us, do not have a conflict of interest with Nale [01:56:28] Like, a lot of months lol [01:57:05] shouldn't be an excuse for his behavior at this point [01:57:09] Agree [01:57:11] I lack the context for this but...How does that even happen? [01:57:20] pretty much anyone who's interacted with them has a problem with them [01:57:31] that's like saying you can't block a vandal because you already don't like them [01:57:41] there is no way to interact with nale without getting pissed off [01:57:47] Slowly and over time, with warnings, and then some okay behavior for a while, then back to the usual. [01:58:01] And when some are offline, others are online but busy [01:58:05] this was a previous concern [01:58:16] at this point it’s being disregarded [01:58:22] Is a current concern actually [01:58:26] nale started a whole ass argument over the course of two days because they couldn't admit that they missed a message telling them to not approve new wiki requests [01:58:41] [1/3] Jeez, does the drama ever end here? Now I remember why I resigned, and why that was a good decision for me. Reading through messages, all I see is drama, drama, and more drama... hopefully eventually things can forward rather than progressing in the reverse way. [01:58:41] [2/3] Just to be clear, not calling anyone out here, I understand some of what is going on, but still there is just pure drama here, and that is way, at this time, I have no intent of ever returning to SRE, unless Miraheze as a whole starts to progress forward away from drama rather than backwards. Which over the next few months I am going to work toward trying to get this organis [01:58:41] [3/3] ation in a better position to avoid these types of things. Being away from SRE gives me more time to focus other areas and hopefully improve overall relationships in the community that can't be hurt by any single user's, or a group of users' actions in the future. [01:58:42] if everyone has issues with nale save for one user….that says something [01:59:20] Yeah, we tried moving on from the convo. [01:59:27] alright sorry [01:59:32] Didn't exactly work. [01:59:51] At least moving it out of general would be helpful [02:00:22] https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:%E7%88%B1%E5%AD%A6%E4%B9%A0%E7%9A%84%E9%A5%AD%E6%A1%B6/%E5%85%8D%E6%AD%BB%E9%87%91%E7%89%8C [02:00:23] [wikipedia] User:爱学习的饭桶/免死金牌 | […]" [02:00:23] And back to wiki topics [02:00:30] Sometimes getting off the internet for a few hours or days can be a good move! Just sayin' [02:00:47] This is literally the current case [02:00:59] I think it won't be lost in translation so yeah go have a look [02:01:03] Yeah, I'm gonna put a cork in it for now. If you want to continue gathering evidence of a user's wrongdoing, start setting up a CBAN request or something. If you need a thread to collaborate, start a thread. But yeah, let's stop talking about one user in general. Thanks! [02:01:35] alright i understand [02:01:39] I don’t speak this language [02:01:52] I think they said something about the lines of threads aren't connected to IRC [02:02:02] Anyone who would like to be involved in the discussion/send stuff related, just DM me [02:02:05] we'll stop it here [02:02:16] At any rate, I liked the idea of a policy that might help move the desired direction [02:02:33] [1/5] It's practically " [02:02:33] [2/5] If I oppose every sysop, no one can ban me! [02:02:34] [3/5] (sysop), I oppose you! [02:02:34] [4/5] .... [02:02:34] [5/5] " [02:02:35] Just, might be tricky to figure out how to write to be effective [02:02:39] Or rather how to propose [02:03:02] Yeah, but the majority of the later conversation doesn't seem to be doing anything particularly helpful other than just venting. Which is valid, I suppose, but has gone on for long enough. [02:03:03] Half the battle of a proposal seems to be having a really well thought out write up [02:03:18] Clear rationale [02:03:28] And easy to see the common sense in it [02:03:40] Agree with Void here. We've been frustrated for long enough. Let's let this become a wiki-help focused channel again. [02:03:47] alright got it [02:04:25] ----- This is a BR like ----- [02:04:37] May I suggest putting general in slowmode for a few minutes to help things naturally cool down? [02:04:43] I ❤️ solution-oriented. [02:04:54] cc: @Orduin (maybe 10 seconds)? [02:05:11] also...how are everyone's wikis doing? [02:05:22] oh my wiki is phenomenal [02:05:35] Slowmode was on for a while last night. It was since removed though. [02:05:46] Me being busy like hell and didn't have the time to work on my wiki. [02:06:24] We're still mucking around with extensions at a leisurely pace [02:06:36] The entire incident literally happened 5 minutes before my exams yesterday [02:06:42] anyone have interwiki requests by the way? happy to process if anyone has some, it's quiet for me for the next few minutes [02:07:02] this is....either painful or fun, can't decide which [02:07:22] Hahahah, both. Which is the joy in it sometimes. [02:08:07] Mood right there. Spent the better part of the week fighting bureaucracy so I could file a missing diploma report w/ my local police station to be allowed to request a duplicate 😛 [02:08:39] Did we miss any wiki questions in the shuffle? I'll ahve to scroll back up again. [02:09:07] <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> [02:10:31] Turns out missing diploma reports apparently count towards robbery statistics for some reason so the cops were very adamant about me just needing to search harder for it 😆 [02:11:54] Paperwork moment 😔 [02:12:04] oh [02:12:07] that's uh [02:12:11] interesting? [02:13:45] And, just a reminder for folks that have donations through Github via Paypal, gotta change that arrangement as they drop support. [02:15:47] I like having a layer between me and my CC details, so I'm not a big fan of that CC move. [02:15:59] Or rather, Github move [02:16:02] #announcements would be nice [02:16:03] for this [02:16:32] Yeah, that seems like a good idea [02:16:55] ccing @NotAracham for implementation if possible? [02:17:12] I didn't realize that had changed almost a month back now [02:17:29] I'm heading off for the night, if anyone needs anything for me, it'll have to wait for tomorrow. Night folks! [02:18:19] Night, get some rest [02:18:30] I'm not on right now, will address it tomorrow if nobody else is able to [02:18:36] appreciate it [02:20:50] for donations whats the best platform to donate through if you want to maximise the intake for miraheze? [02:21:13] like the platform with the lowest fees i guess [02:21:35] Paypal I think? [02:21:39] Is ko-fi is new addition? I don't recall seeing it when I signed up [02:21:39] not familiar with Finance though [02:21:58] But that was a while back [02:23:02] No idea, am looking at good a way to hop away from Github sponsorship. [02:23:33] is github sponsorship not ideal? [02:24:46] No, it's fine if you have no problem giving them your credit card details. [02:25:01] I'm just used to having another layer between me and my credit card details. [02:25:42] They've dropped paypal, so no extra layer to continue for me. [02:25:59] 2.9% is apparently Paypal's percentage [02:26:55] Oh, there we go. "The fact that Ko-fi doesn't take any fees from your donations and limits fees from commission and shop sales to 5% makes it a decent place." --looks like Ko-fi is better anyhow [02:27:15] Had just never heard of it [02:28:06] https://privacy.com/ [02:28:07] [url] Virtual Cards That Protect Your Payments | Online Payment Security | privacy.com [02:28:16] oh kofi looks good then thanks [02:28:38] paypal has been known to also store passwords in plain text [02:31:02] At the expense of sounding like a capital one shill they have virtual card service automatically if you have their cc, which is pretty nice [02:31:21] one less service sign up in that case [02:32:16] I read something about this, but there was a short-term bug where that somehow in repeating got simplified to this, but I thought it wasn't actually plain text? [02:33:43] no [02:33:45] it was like actual plain text [02:33:51] it was reported to paypal's hackerone [02:34:12] a white hat researcher in compliance with their bug bounty found a vulnerability that gave them access to plain text passwords [02:41:15] Not allowed <:BanCatMH:766487714262155276> [02:48:15] K, now I just have to prune the gazillion tabs I have open. [02:50:21] is it possible to scrape images from a fandom wiki [02:50:54] been planning to just mass-extract images from genshin impact by reverse engineering it but as expected they dont store images normally [02:51:08] anything that would make sense to store as an image is not stored as an image [02:51:24] UI elements and such are not images, they are models or weirdly obfuscated images [02:51:31] so its slower to extract than it is to scrape other places [02:53:24] I'd think that'd be against the Fandom TOC, so Miraheze staff couldn't/wouldn't endorse [02:53:47] *Terms of Use [02:54:16] or TOS [02:55:33] Nm, looks like question deleted. [02:56:46] i dont really care [02:56:48] its not illegal [02:57:01] yo let’s not be negative [02:57:05] oh [02:57:06] my bad [02:57:09] i didnt mean to be negative [02:57:17] no worries [02:57:30] also [02:57:35] isnt the wayback machine in violation of the fandom tou [02:58:27] That wasn't to you, it was to person who asked, but the question was deleted. [02:58:34] oh [02:59:04] I had used search and found the same question answered by Raidarr, but for some reason it wouldn't let me quote it. [02:59:19] Probably because it was archived. [03:00:02] I think it's a common question [03:00:36] [1/2] Bye everyone. You likely won't here from me for quite awhile, anywhere from a couple weeks to a couple months or longer. I am reachable on telegram or matrix only if needed, both are in my Discord bio. [03:00:37] [2/2] I wish everyone the best in my time away from discord. But for my own well-being, I need this time away to recover from everything that has happened recently. [03:00:38] Miraheze is great in that they will happily export stuff... will Fandom do the same though? Not sure. [03:01:17] No worries CA, take good care of yourself! 🍺 [03:01:26] Thanks for your hard work! [03:13:42] That reminds me, what we've done for our wiki is create a repository of image backups in the cloud, that way, no matter where we host, we have all full-quality originals preserved from game maker, and another archive of optimized-for-web copies for putting up. [03:13:47] Comes in handy. [03:13:53] For you? No. They retain the built-in MediaWiki functions though. [03:14:05] Surprising honestly, given how Fandom operates [03:14:26] Fandom will do everything in their power to prevent you from moving a wiki off their site [03:14:33] ^ [03:14:41] Yeah, see, that's the first warning sign never to put a wiki there. [03:14:54] The best way to move off of Fandom is to make sure they never know you're moving [03:15:00] See: Zelda Wiki [03:15:17] The biggest problem with leaving Fandom is that they won't let you delete wikis [03:15:22] i feel that this must be an antitrust violation [03:15:38] you're allowed to copy all the content into another wiki but if you try to delete your wiki hosted on Fandom, they will revert that and take over the wiki [03:15:40] im not an attorney but this goes against the whole thing about capitalism where there's supposed to be you know competition [03:15:52] they won't provide a better service, they just prevent people from using a better service [03:15:55] Yeah, I noticed that. There's ancient wikis there that haven't been edited for years, yet the leave them going with no content. [03:15:56] And image scraping is technically against Fandom ToS but what the hell are they gonna do lol [03:16:12] they can sue me for costing them $0 [03:16:38] It's not like they own the images in the first place, it's largely all copyrighted media licensed under CC BY SA [03:16:55] I've seen some creative former users over there blacking out the navigation styles so their old wiki is un-browsable... that's pretty hilarious. [03:16:57] let's just say, fuck fandom [03:16:57] And clever [03:17:04] lmaoo yes [03:17:08] it's actually kinda smart [03:17:11] that's amazing [03:17:14] It is smart! [03:17:17] the customization policy doesn't say anything about making a wiki usable [03:17:25] They don't put any attention into their smaller wikis which is the best part [03:17:30] So you can get away with stuff like that [03:17:35] Yeah, I've seen more than one do that too and had a good chuckle [03:17:39] lmao yea [03:17:53] that's assuming fandom is usable in the first place lmao [03:18:15] It's not usable without an ad blocker, and even then many still bleed through. [03:18:20] lmao yea [03:19:10] I never understood why people use Fandom honestly. [03:19:20] it's what comes up first in search results [03:19:23] I do, it's super accessible [03:19:33] That's the whole problem [03:19:41] They have commodified a wiki better than anybody else [03:19:52] At least not when there's other feasible options that are more usable. [03:20:11] this and the fandom wikis usually have more content [03:20:13] That's why it's good to help foster a community of editing here. [03:20:19] yes [03:23:32] I think they just have the most content is all [03:23:44] luckily wiki.gg is giving them a run for their money [03:24:12] Yeah, I've seen some pretty fleshed out wikis on all platforms, sometimes it just depends on having a good core team of editors. [03:24:12] wiki.gg >>>>>>> fandom in every way possible [03:24:17] Is it for movies too? [03:24:31] I think it's just for games for now, but they might open it up to more in the future [03:24:52] and it's just for official wikis for the time being [03:25:24] What makes it official? [03:25:58] endorsed by the game creator or whatever [03:26:03] yeah something like hat [03:26:33] actually after looking at the list of wikis it might not be only official ones [03:26:58] there's a wiki for Animal Crossing Pocket Camp, which Nintendo likely does not officially endorse [03:28:46] [1/2] > Animal Crossing Pocket Camp Wiki is neither endorsed nor affiliated with any of the holders of any such rights [03:28:46] [2/2] yup, it isn't official. After looking at the applications page it looks like they've opened it up to unofficial wikis to some degree [03:30:46] Hmm, interesting. There can be some interesting arrangements between wikis and game makers sometimes though. [03:31:11] Oh yeah, the official Terraria wiki is one of the best out there [03:31:37] Not sure how much of that is the devs vs editors but I imagine the devs helped them out a bit [03:32:28] Ours operates fully independent (just a mobile game) but gets info and images direct from game maker; what's nice about that is we can stay independent and disagree and/or protest changes they make without being beholden in any way. [03:32:49] With the agreement to never leak [03:33:58] And, to not let personal opinions of the game affect the wiki of course. [03:34:44] Or be present on the wiki either. [03:36:00] That does look like a cool one. [03:36:29] There are (or last time I looked, were) some developers that had stuff on Miraheze. [03:37:03] There's quite a range of different wikis to browse in MH [03:42:12] i dont want to agree with hyv on anything [03:42:54] theres a general problem with their gacha that you have to save up 2 patches ahead at least to get a guaranteed win on a character [03:43:22] as a F2P [03:43:32] meaning that F2P players cannot get a guaranteed of the character they want without saving up 2 patches ahead and they only announce upcoming characters/banners 1 patch ahead [03:43:44] which has created a very large demand for leaks [03:46:38] Yeah, this was why it was important to stay independent for us. We can't possibly agree with the developer on a lot of things, but we can keep that disagreement off-wiki. [03:46:47] yea [03:47:15] MH would have worked fine too, we just looked at making the jump at a bad time. [03:47:23] yeah [03:47:50] Still, it's a great platform alternative to Fandom imo. [03:48:25] We'd come to MH before we'd ever consider Fandom. [03:49:34] Would be great to keeping working on wider help community here for editors in spare time. Spare time is just difficult to find some days. [03:49:56] yea [04:05:07] Does anyone make extensive use of LabeledSectionTransclusion (LST)? If so, how are you dealing with the inclusion of extra line breaks? [04:06:23] When transcluding by heading, any extra line break is included, so you either have to put `` `/noinclude` around every empty line, or have a load of `` comments to cut unintended line breaks. [04:06:49] It starts making pages pretty darned ugly after a while. [04:07:10] Hello BrandonWM[m]! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [04:07:25] Using sections is equally clunky. [04:07:34] just saying isnt this sort of an advertisement [04:08:01] yeah that didn't work [04:08:47] what didnt work [04:09:44] just something on IRC [04:11:26] oh i see [04:16:19] @MediaWiki Engineers i dont know who to ping for this but the updates to the RemoveRedlinks extension havent been deployed to normal miraheze [04:20:13] No, because it's not a promotion. Donation requests are their own form of solicitation. [04:20:27] hmm [04:20:27] i see [04:21:06] it's currently PRd [04:21:19] it's a process [04:21:33] oh and here we go again with Nale [04:21:39] [[User talk:MacFan4000]] [04:21:39] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User_talk:MacFan4000 [04:21:40] [04:21:41] [url] User talk:MacFan4000 - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [04:21:55] do not start a conversation around it, it's just me noting it [04:22:12] if you'd like to converse about it, DMs are always there [04:22:16] alright [04:24:29] What he said is utterly ridiculous, and I will def be ignoring most of it [04:24:30] @Stewards need something OSd [04:24:43] or @Meta-Wiki Administrators revdel [04:24:52] apologies for the ping [04:25:06] MacFan4000: are you on discord by any chance? [04:25:10] if not I can come to IRC [04:25:16] and probably delete from the #meta-feed discord [04:25:19] No [04:25:26] will venture over then [04:25:38] see PMs on IRC [04:27:41] If you are referring to cn [04:27:43] i want to tell naleksuh about a greater infringement on his rights than IRC message deletion, specifically that if genshin impact detects you have injected a DLL into the game it renames the DLL on your pc to a random string, but i feel it might not be a good idea right now [04:27:45] There is no outing there [04:27:51] that is not the mention [04:27:52] So no need for revdel [04:27:57] someone edited while logged out [04:28:03] and exposed their IP [04:28:05] If you can dm me the diff [04:28:07] I can revdel [04:28:08] ok [04:28:58] should the discord tag be restored? [04:29:08] appreciate the quick response Zppix [04:29:51] Honestly, just leave it no point in edit warring [04:30:01] fine with me [04:30:12] mind if I discuss something with you in DMs? [04:30:21] probably not something i'd prefer saying in public channels [04:30:24] Ok [04:30:37] My only point to them was that they should be entirely removing comments [04:30:53] shouldn’t* [04:31:00] Macfan as far as I’m concerned you did nothing wrong 🤷‍♂️ [04:31:59] apparently nale reported me to stewards@miraheze.org for outing reception123's discord tag and mentioning that John has a wikipedia account and is banned (i never even said john's wikipedia username but apparently i have "outed" him by "exposing" off-wiki user accounts) [04:32:03] sent [04:32:05] stewards@ has not replied [04:32:28] i am just imagining the kind of email [04:32:41] Literally anybody can look up WMF accounts - it’s not secret [04:32:41] we don't need to do this right now [04:32:45] alright fine [04:32:51] but yes MacFan is right [04:32:56] there's no point to this [04:33:17] Don't [04:33:25] *done [04:33:57] yea i understand, sorry @BWM [04:34:01] Re: deleting revdel'd logs locally on discord [04:34:08] kk [04:34:23] appreciated [05:28:53] who currently remains in SRE and stewards [05:34:00] [1/2] A number of folks greater than zero (in fact most), which is the most important thing for now. Things aren't fully settled, which is understandably unsettling! [05:34:00] [2/2] However, we have more than plenty of folks to retain continuity of service at present, please give time for things to settle. [05:34:28] alright got it [05:44:42] according to google pagespeed the miraheze donation banner has bad color contrast here [06:09:13] [1/2] good morning [06:09:13] [2/2] what did i missed? [06:10:03] nothing important [06:10:19] nale has reported me to stewards for outing john's wikipedia account and reception's discord tag [06:10:29] aside from that [06:10:32] nothing changed [06:53:02] I know Freedom Games is a video game publisher appears to be the owner of Wiki.gg [06:56:47] some things never change [06:58:50] Interesting, a quick google shows they're an indie game publisher. [06:59:10] /I mean Ooyama posting these kind of messages once in a while in general/ [06:59:42] Hiya Legroom, long time no see! [07:00:31] yo [07:01:32] I was too lazy to scroll tru previous messages, nearly 1k of them lol [07:02:42] considering I watched this server entire yesterday [07:03:10] lol busy day I take it [07:04:52] I'm procrastinating on wiki projects I should be doing but can't seem to make myself do. [07:05:57] I managed to procrastinate all the way until bed time and still get nothing done on the wiki... mission accomplished. <:EpicFaceMH:912930767972225095> [07:12:25] G'night all. I'm passing the procrastination torch. [07:46:46] how long does a wiki dump usually take [07:47:22] oh nvm i just had to refresh the page [07:57:53] “There's a Reason You Don't Know.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 29 Nov. 2022, [07:57:54] oops [07:57:57] didnt mean to put that there [07:57:58] my bad [09:19:08] it depends how large, mine usually take 10-15min to generate [09:50:54] John knew the context, I know the context. Certain people don't want everyone else knowing the context [09:51:30] That's correct. [11:54:56] hello my goofy ahh uncles [11:55:59] something is going to happen today [12:37:52] what's the tea? [12:47:40] idk someone just said that last night [13:01:40] how would i go about requesting a wiki deletion? i was a bit in over my head when requesting for one to be created, and i've realized that it isn't entirely necessary [13:06:20] delete a wiki is easy as pie (except only when someone awakes) [13:09:48] that's good to hear [13:12:34] request on Stewards Noticeboard [13:22:11] actually, if i close a wiki, is it still held under the dormancy policy? [13:32:24] Yes [13:32:47] alright, i'll just request a deletion then, thank you all for the help [13:34:02] No problem [14:52:14] https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T10483 - Slow disk response on cloud14, authored by Paladox, assigned to None, Priority: High, Status: Open [14:52:48] what is this bot? [14:52:59] does it just post links to phab tasks for no reason? [14:53:31] Goodnight! [14:57:19] Hello src-ry! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [14:58:28] in general? [14:58:37] yes [14:58:37] there's nothing discord side [14:58:46] though I guess it doesn't bridge over to Discord [15:17:59] wow [15:18:06] we only have 4 SRE [15:19:36] eh [15:19:51] yeah... [15:20:01] hopefully 5 with OS [15:20:05] :) [15:20:18] also, i believe there's more than just the checkboxes that are there right now [15:20:33] you mean at my request for MWE? [15:20:38] yes [15:20:45] but i won't add as I'm not 100% sure [15:20:49] I tried to be as conservative as I could when asking for access [15:21:02] why [15:21:15] you're requesting `mw-admins` access [15:21:21] Well, I'm a noob here still [15:21:26] you can get all the access of that access [15:22:08] that made no sense [15:22:13] but still [15:27:04] shell access + graylog + github is really all I would need [15:27:39] maybe [15:27:48] maybe not [15:27:59] i don't know honestly for sure [15:30:10] i am wishing os good luck with the request [15:32:24] yeah, 2 people on the infra team, 2 on the mw team, and 1 Community engagement specialist [15:32:41] yup [15:32:45] need more [15:33:23] we would certainly take what help we can get, as we are now very understaffed [15:33:34] we lost our primary dev [15:33:36] that's bad [15:33:59] Access request won't be review though until reception is back from their wikibreak [15:34:18] yup.....sadly [15:34:35] though frankly, a wikibreak for like half of the volunteer team was probably necessary [15:34:36] with john gone, to my knowledge, they are effectively the acting SRE manager [15:34:46] everyone's been run thin lately [15:34:50] recharges are needed [15:35:19] MacFan4000: You, void, paladox are the only 3 SRE around right now [15:35:37] me being the only person from the MW team [15:35:49] yeah [15:35:50] not good [15:36:28] who's director of the Nfra team [15:36:46] John was the EM for Infra [15:37:15] john was the EM infra, so until we appoint somebody else, I wold guess for now it is reception as the remaining em [15:37:15] and UO was the director of SRE for the Board [15:37:38] Void or paladox....? [15:37:40] UO is still a board member - he didn't resign from that [15:38:00] yeah but he was the director of the technical team which he no longer has access to [15:38:18] that role is more like a representative role [15:38:19] it's all unpaved road i guess [15:38:22] yeah [15:38:37] I guess you don't *technically* need to be a member of SRE for that [15:38:53] It'll be up to the board and the rest of SRE to appoint a new EM [15:40:38] yup [15:40:43] it's kind of bad though [15:45:36] what I missed [15:45:46] not much [15:49:52] Hello Lcawte! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [16:02:02] You do need to be SRE to be appointed in the role, there's no auto removal criteria if you leave SRE during the term [16:02:38] Assuming it is the Board position we're talking about here, and not EM [16:03:30] we're talking about the board position [16:03:42] thanks for the clarification [17:06:50] yeah [17:07:14] assuming EM is also SRE-Board joint decision? [17:07:30] EM is Board decision [17:07:59] assuming there will be a discussion about the next EM for Infrastructure soon? [17:08:16] I would imagine so [17:09:03] Hopefully something soon then, we only have 3 active engineers right now so stretched thin as is [17:09:10] we need more SRE…. [17:09:42] Having numbers has been a problem for years now, that's the big issue [17:13:38] we could look to the WMFV [17:13:55] though i’m not sure if they’d contribute without pay… [17:19:16] do not look to the wmf [17:21:01] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GuyMacon/Wikipediahas_Cancer they waste a LOT of money [17:21:01] [wikipedia] User:Guy | "The values and distinctions you are trying to stress are so far outside my Overton window that they're not just out the Overton door and down the Overton block--they're 40 miles away on the interstate from the town of Overton.In science, any compromise between a correct statement and a wrong statement is a wrong statement. Thanks, user:Stephan Schulz.My activity level is 53mKo (milli-Koavfs).Sad now. […]" [17:33:45] you have not been very active here so you likely do not know how unbearable naleksuh is to be around. additionally, john falsely claimed that Reception123 wrote messages written by Zppix. and furthermore, john never even considered raising his concerns with zppix before immediately posting private messages in a public setting. [17:34:42] if a channel's description contains "this chat and things said here should usually not be mentioned outside of correspondence with its members" then you shouldn't be posting its contents without first considering other alternatives and perspectives which john did not do [17:46:47] Quite a few things wrong there; 1) I'm here every day. 2) John didn't claim that Reception wrote the messages. 3) John has raised the problem with Zppix and SRE before [17:48:54] Seconded, Owen may not be active in chat, but is present. Let's leave this topic alone, please. [17:49:34] i have plenty to say but i'd be committing a great wrong to explain why what john did is not good so i'll leave it alone [17:52:39] honestly, can we drop the stick about this whole situation atp, or at least move it elsewhere [17:53:32] as you can see i wasnt the one who brought it up [17:53:42] nobody had any objections to owen raising the issue up again [17:53:51] the only problem is when someone disagrees with his interpretation [17:55:40] The issue is the ongoing debate with partial information. As suggested, this is a topic best left dropped. [17:55:51] k [18:14:46] Interesting new discussion on the CN connected to the recent turbulence [18:18:48] now I'm just thinking, UO was our only extension security reviewer, and so we'll need somebody else who can conduct the reviews [18:21:30] oh [18:21:30] right [18:21:43] I would advise all to ignore and not respond [18:21:52] it’s not worth your time and energy [18:22:06] MacFan4000: are you able you [18:24:11] no, I don't think I could do that, I'm not a security expert [18:25:40] Hello Bongo-Cat_! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [18:26:10] darn [18:26:23] actually never mind, let’s see where this goes [18:36:25] hmmm 🍿 [18:47:37] [[CN]] [18:47:37] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/CN [18:47:37] [18:47:38] let me see [18:47:56] [url] Community noticeboard - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [18:48:02] erm miraheze slow for anybody else? 🤓 [18:49:36] i'm not sure if i'm still forbidden from questioning john's understanding of context [18:49:47] but im replying [18:50:18] if you didn't want this to start a discussion you shouldn't have mentioned it to begin with [18:51:05] im tired of having to put up with nale being constantly rude and uncivil and causing problems for everyone [18:51:24] i can never speak of it because he's so annoying that if you speak about him it causes a problem [18:51:43] but im tired of repressing my overall anger and discomfort with him [18:51:58] nale turns the slightest disagreement into a multi day argument [18:52:07] and now he's starting more stupid nonsense on the CN [18:52:13] i am not going to just stay silent about this [18:52:19] he is wasting volunteer time [18:54:30] I'll publish a statement later on this [18:58:27] After reading John's Meta userpage, this whole drama feels more and more like an actual issue hidden under a Kilimanjaro-sized mountain of overexaggeration and fearmongering <:pupCoffeeMH:766487840694599711> [18:58:42] Pretty accurate [18:59:06] Hope it gets resolved ASAP in a proper fashion, but I fear like every single possible outcome is bound to hurt Miraheze long-term at this point. [18:59:24] But you know, the die is cast and all that [19:01:18] this is miraheze [19:01:29] since when do we resolve something ASAP or in a proper fashion [19:04:06] Frequently. [19:06:25] Things that go wrong are big and flashy, things that go right, when done well, are near-invisible. [19:11:25] [1/2] nale needs to be gone, i am tired of nale, he is a waste of time and resources, he is uncivil and abusive towards both new and experienced users, he causes pointless drama, i am tired of having to deal with the drama he starts, i am tired of him making personal attacks, i am tired of him escalating everything when it doesnt need to be. this is a wiki hosting platform but it [19:11:26] [2/2] feels like a circus with him around. a one month ban from IRC is too lenient. [19:13:03] You’re not saying anything we all havent been thinking for months now, the issue is getting someone to stand up and actually do it the right way [19:13:52] if someone proposes to block or demote him for any reason then it becomes outing or personal attacks or whatever but i've had it with him [19:14:02] if almost everyone here has a problem with him [19:14:12] it suggests that it his fault [19:30:06] I have to be honest, the returning of this topic over and over again is a bit frustrating for some users. We already know some action was referenced to be happening soon, would be great if we can leave it at that for now. [19:30:53] Moving on with business as usual would be fantastic. [19:30:56] great then tell that to brandonwm who initiated a discussion about it here and nale who posted a brand new post on the community noticeboard [19:31:34] collei relax [19:31:35] So, what's going on on people's wikis today? [19:31:37] please [19:31:57] I decided to take a short wiki break again [19:31:59] alright im sorry [19:32:05] just hanging there for support [19:32:32] Yeah, my motivation is lacking a bit in the heavy editing myself, so mostly just helping folks learn new features and templates. [19:32:57] Or rather, new to them features. [19:33:15] And drowning myself in coffee at current [19:33:52] I started drinking coffee again, because I found one specific that doesn't make feel horrible lmao [19:34:11] tea pearson overall tho [19:34:47] Oh, you were getting the coffee hangover as I like to call it. It is hard to wiki edit with a coffee hangover. I switched to espresso and no more coffee hangover. [19:35:28] As it turns out, I also edit templates fast LOL [19:35:40] *faster [19:37:07] And actually remember to run maintenance scripts and stuff from my to-do list on the independent one lol [19:38:29] (True! Not that I mind much or that it's a priority right now but it might be worth mentioning) [19:38:35] Discovering tea-flavored Monster absolutely destroyed me. [19:38:50] Anyway hi Miraheze I hope everyone is having a good day [19:38:57] Or at least better than yesterday haha. [19:39:25] Yeah, things have been a little slow this morning, though I assumed it was my VPN [19:41:13] I thought it was also just on my end but another user of our wiki mentioned it and after checking out of all the tabs I have open the wiki ones are the only slow ones lol. [19:41:35] we have very few site reliability engineers and zero security engineers now [19:41:39] so i think miraheze will remain slow for a while [19:41:54] We've never had a security engineer lol [19:41:58] cosmicalpha was one [19:42:01] or the closest to one [19:42:10] He wasn't technically a security engineer [19:42:17] He was first a MediaWiki Engineer and then a Site Reliability Engineer [19:42:35] he did security reviews [19:42:39] you probably thought so because of extensions reviews? [19:42:45] yes [19:42:47] he was the one who did that [19:43:59] There can be short term factors that can bog things down for short periods as well iirc [19:45:46] If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it's probably database backups going on right now [19:46:00] So be thankful! 😆 [19:46:17] UO isn’t a security engineer [19:46:43] He just knew code well enough [19:47:04] oh [19:47:15] does anyone else know enough about security [19:47:28] No [19:47:34] that was what i expected [19:48:23] Sadly I’m not a PHP dev [19:48:44] https://tenor.com/view/php-gif-24572089 [19:48:44] [url] Php GIF - Php - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [19:49:06] i'm making a site in laravel [19:49:10] PHP is so annoying [19:49:37] but laravel is the only good option that allows components and such on the server side without too much of a learning curve [19:49:51] This was thought. Either backups or some memory intensive maintenance scripts that need run. Lots of possibilities. [19:50:41] Patience is a virtue [19:51:09] Albeit sometimes a difficult one lol [19:51:09] i was originally considering just using something like react or vue with a nodejs backend or whatever but on second thought genshin impact players have such slow internet that anything like that would take up too much bandwidth [19:51:16] and too late now [20:08:43] You can use ssg with react or vue for better dx [20:09:06] scholarly research on the size of genshin map [20:09:13] meant to put in #offtopic oops [20:09:16] Well ssg or ssr [20:09:22] ill look into it [20:10:42] [1/2] For react there’s gatsby for ssg, next for literally everything [20:10:42] [2/2] Not sure about vue but I heard about nuxt, gridsome, vuepress before [20:12:52] i made drm bypass for adobe epub reader [20:12:57] apparently its written in .net c# [20:13:25] i decompiled it with dotpeek and opened it in visual studio [20:13:32] apparently some of the drm protected epubs [20:13:34] If you’re going the react route next >>>>> gatsby unless you want everything to magically work or spontaneously stop working lol [20:13:36] you can print out [20:13:46] so i just edited the part where it checks if you have print permissions [20:13:49] and made it always return true [20:13:57] so now i can open the print dialogue for any of them and print to pdf [20:14:03] <:memegalaxybrain:971593261573619712> [20:19:35] I've been trying to cache the result of a cargo query with VariablesLua, but it seems like it's always resulting in a cache miss. Does VariablesLua.vardefine not store values immediately? I vaguely recall that the parser doesn't evaluate in order? 🤔 [20:20:45] wow, no news outlet has reported on miraheze drama yet, should I jinx it? [20:20:54] no news outlet cares about miraheze [20:21:04] Time to write a newspaper section [20:21:08] 😂 [20:21:14] would be funny to have a miraheze newspaper [20:21:15] smaller news outlets do occasionally care about smaller things [20:21:25] feel free to try [20:21:33] the worst they can say is i dont care about this its not news worthy [20:21:35] How about we don't further propagate this [20:21:39] ok fine [20:21:40] lmao [20:21:45] but just saying if theres news coverage [20:21:51] then it would become eligible for a wikipedia article [20:22:03] I've talked with Reception123 also, and might rejoin as a pseudo-security engineer to only handle security reviews, with zero access, and not the part of security engineer that is CSP reviews. It's unclear to how it works, but the only way I'll really continue security reviews right now. Nothing is set yet either. Still only a maybe. [20:22:32] for those on the irc side who cant see what a message is in reply to: [20:23:16] (I kinda expected Ars Technica or maybe ZDNET might report on it) [20:23:20] no [20:23:35] You can tell its a reply on IRC now with the new relay I designed. It doesn't say exactly what replying to, but does mention the target user, and there was enough context for it to make sense I think. [20:23:44] oh i see [20:23:55] @CosmicAlpha ircv3 replies will be nice [20:23:58] Hi! [20:24:02] 16:22 <+MirahezeRelay> I've talked with Reception123 also, and might rejoin as a pseudo-security engineer to only handle security reviews, with zero access, and not the part of security engineer that is CSP reviews. It's unclear to how it works, but the only way I'll really continue security reviews right now. Nothing is set yet either. Still only a maybe. [20:24:07] ^ is what it looked like [20:24:11] i want ircv3 editing and deletion but i hope its opt in for both sides [20:24:14] New relay is cool :) [20:24:16] like there is in simplex chat [20:24:20] How are you today? [20:24:24] aren't most IRCv3 features doomed at this point? mostly by complete lack of interest in implementation [20:24:32] probably [20:24:39] but maybe they will be implemented some day [20:25:00] No [20:25:09] There isn’t a lack of interest [20:25:23] some day = valve time? lol [20:25:40] The internet is a slow place when it comes to innovation [20:25:40] there is, most of the IRC community thinks that IRCv3 is evil [20:26:19] No it doesn’t [20:26:45] The biggest client of Miraheze users is a major member of the working group [20:27:15] which client [20:27:57] IRCCloud [20:28:39] yea, that's the client that most IRC users accuse of being an evil force pushing the terrifying threat of basic functionality onto IRC [20:28:48] I read the page, was surprised to see hexchat on there, that's good [20:29:10] they think that message deletion infringes their rights [20:29:29] you know what actually is evil? profile pictures [20:29:37] The internet requires interoperability with old systems. It doesn’t get redesigned overnight. [20:29:53] it infringes your rights as much as genshin impact, which renames any DLLs that you try to inject into the game to random strings [20:29:58] Message deletion on a decentralised platform is called nonsense [20:30:25] simplex chat moment [20:32:24] Non sequitur: Just have to say, the experimental CVT feed kinda rocks. Is nice to see change details. [20:32:54] Definitely is new since I was last here for any length of time. [20:34:38] yea [20:34:49] [[User:HeyTürkiye]] [20:34:49] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:HeyT%c3%bcrkiye [20:34:50] [20:34:50] [url] User:HeyTürkiye - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [20:35:45] Delete message please? [20:42:06] Is today March 18th [20:42:38] Yes [20:43:10] Today is my friends birthday [20:43:14] Nice [20:43:20] Happy bday to your friend [20:43:26] Thanks [20:44:19] pertaining to above conversation, miraheze does have a news section now, though still incomplete [20:44:38] "half of our volunteers quit" isn't a good thing to put in the news section [20:44:56] "New milestone: half of our volunteers quit over a user!" [20:45:10] just kidding but still [20:45:34] We're doing fine, it was just two volunteers who withdrew from the project [20:45:40] alright i see [20:45:44] For personal reasons but we respect that [20:45:55] makes sense [21:09:14] just IP ban the guy [21:10:13] if they come back then: a) you made them waste money on a VPN, or they used those malware infested free versions and b) ip ban them again [21:12:13] Goodnight! [21:15:17] probably the last day of managing the wiki [21:15:24] gonna get to actually writing tomorrow [21:15:29] also here [21:15:33] 's some motivation: [21:15:41] 1. look at another wiki [21:15:47] 2. realize it's much better than yours [21:15:56] 3. attempt to improve yours, in vain [21:15:59] 4. motivation [21:16:16] 5. repeat [21:18:10] protonvpn free is not malware infested [21:18:12] regardless open proxies are blocked [21:18:20] assuming you're referring to nale? [21:18:23] what news where [21:18:31] this has been discussed over and over again [21:18:37] just the same garbage on the NC [21:18:39] *CN [21:18:56] idk who caused the drama but if thats the guy ip ban them [21:19:26] what? [21:19:39] Let's not get into burn everything down mode [21:19:56] a bit too late [21:20:13] I'd say were not quite there yet [21:20:13] Nale started an RfC to demote everyone with access to the private channels in here [21:20:38] several people are typing [21:20:44] That'd be everyone in any high role then [21:20:46] because they were harassing him in a place he cant access or is aware even exists (as i've explained multiple times thats a bit of an oxymoron) [21:20:49] would leave us with no CVT [21:20:54] i know [21:21:20] Can we relax, stop posting fear mongering, and work to resolve the issue rather than repeatedly drag it through the mud? Thanks! [21:21:21] i was told before to disconverse on this so i am not going to discuss it further [21:21:36] good night [21:21:47] i know a vpn that is free and can bypass almost all blockers but i'm not gonna name it [21:21:57] I also know one [21:22:11] for just 4.99 euros I'll tell you which one it is /s [21:23:00] protonvpn works well [21:23:40] protonvpn goes through a company with credible concerns of how really private it is especially when it comes to the swiss government [21:23:52] Agent: I need help, what channel is Nale talking about? [21:23:59] is it #miraheze-cabal? [21:24:06] that would probably be it [21:24:17] It's a private channel on Discord where all volunteers talk [21:24:27] like, literally everyone? [21:24:50] Yes, almost every single volunteer in a role and also some non current volunteers [21:24:54] (also, I know #miraheze-cabal because it was recently bridged, it's invite only though) [21:25:07] i know because of the discord api [21:25:07] yeah, a relay was recently created [21:26:02] only 1/5th of all miraheze wikis are successful / operating [21:26:29] [1/4] i dont mean this as an attack against josh for posting it but i just want to say this: [21:26:29] [2/4] channel description is "Not bound by NDA but this chat and things said here should usually not be mentioned outside of correspondence with its members." [21:26:29] [3/4] users with access: notaracham, raidarr, the bridge bot, SRE, former sysadmins, stewards, board members [21:26:29] [4/4] thats publicly accessible with the discord api [21:26:49] Why am I not in that channel? [21:26:59] Collei, take your own advice and take a break on this [21:27:01] In a high ranking role I should've clarified [21:27:29] And what do discussions there look like? [21:27:42] cause I imagine the cabal in the title is a joke, right? [21:27:51] There is no cabal! [21:27:52] yes, its a joke [21:27:57] As void sagely advised, let's stop fear mongering and let the process play out [21:28:11] it is playing out right now [21:28:21] wait [21:28:25] I will be describing the cabal in a bit of detail when I reply on the CN [21:28:32] The channel used to be for SRE chatter, then it was renamed the cartel by Doug as a joke and then the cabal because someone else called it that [21:28:34] Raidarr: ok, I'll wait [21:28:44] Basically, it's just off topic chatter about different topics [21:28:52] and some venting, I will admit, about different things [21:28:59] Managing a project like this is stressful [21:29:37] according to my calculations and research, reception123 had approved the 69th wiki request on https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:RequestWikiQueue/69#mw-section-comments 16th september 2015 - but his discord account was made in 2018, so what was the former communication method by miraheze? and how come reception had the privelege of approving this wiki request number? [21:29:38] [url] Wiki requests queue - Miraheze Meta | meta.miraheze.org [21:30:00] LMAO thats kinda funny [21:30:02] IRC was used by all volunteers before Discord came to be [21:30:44] But Discord was made in 2015, before Miraheze? [21:31:17] Before our Discord server came to be [21:31:23] Our Discord server was created in 2018 [21:33:40] 6. Team up with cool folks to learn the stuff they've done that you like, and that you've done that they like, exchange. 🙃 [21:34:44] Best part of this server, frankly [21:35:09] Right?!> (I.e., It's engaging in a "community of practice" in which I can expand my brain a little every day hehe). [21:35:54] Seeing the folks just starting out asking basic questions, to become those offering sage advice to newcomers not a few months later warms my heart tremendously [21:36:24] That's the community spirit that makes this a project I heartily believe in. [21:36:43] Excellent point, that's pretty cool. We all learn different stuff at different times too. [21:37:02] So, we might be advanced in one topic and no zip about another. [21:37:11] *know [21:37:47] Sorry, brain can't spell or do grammar today without assistive tools lol (turning them on now 😜 ) [21:41:33] dw my brain no worky either [21:42:01] I am not alone! ❤️ [21:42:54] Two days I've been procrastinating on removing backgrounds from images in photoshop... can't seem to light a fire under it. [21:43:19] There was one time exactly where my very limited Scribunto knowledge was exactly what someone else needed, it felt so good haha. [21:43:40] Gotta love those moments. [21:44:14] And now I'm the one asking a question! Love these interactions. [21:44:39] I may lean on you then for getting my feet wet with Scrubunto/Lua. Every time I look at it I feel like there's a missing middle somewhere lol [21:45:44] im heading to sleep for the night [21:45:52] good night people [22:34:44] i realized that writing is much easier when you're not counting the time [22:37:05] I'm getting an error: (Cannot access the database: Cannot access the database: Connection refused (db121)) [22:37:27] oh of course the moment i report it after waiting a while, it goes away [22:37:49] @Site Reliability Engineers db121 is down ^ [22:37:59] seems to be back but probably is in read-only [22:38:07] yeah, i was just typing, it's come back in read-only [22:38:11] miraheze is being slow now [22:38:37] I guessed earlier that it was probably database backups [22:38:48] dunno if that's the case though [22:39:17] Fixed [22:39:22] Thanks! [22:39:23] ty! [22:40:02] Having helped run a multiplayer game via discord with a few hundred people at its peak I entirely agree with this sentiment. “Blow off steam” channels quite often caused way more drama than they deserved too. [22:49:32] Yeah, something we'll need to consider. On the one hand it isn't healthy to bottle up frustrations, but on the other you risk drama. [22:50:08] https://tenor.com/view/floptok-queen-slay-gif-26269390 [22:50:09] [url] Floptok Queen GIF - Floptok Queen Slay - Discover & Share GIFs | tenor.com [22:57:30] ^ Not sure that's appropriate here [22:58:03] wtf [22:58:17] Already reported [22:58:35] alright [22:59:21] Thanks for the removal! [23:00:32] yeah im glad im not the only one who found the gif questionable [23:01:31] it's a fine balance, unfortunately the act of acting to avoid drama can sometimes be exactly how it gets enough background to really have an impact [23:02:25] in any case I have blurbs written but need to refine them to be more consise [23:04:25] i dont want newcomers and such to see the drama and think miraheze is unstable but i just have a lot of bottled up frustrations and anger over nale's general behavior [23:04:32] That was fast! Bravo! [23:04:59] I think the big thing is to hit the unsubscribe button and not keep it going. [23:05:04] That's what I've learned. [23:05:22] And moving onto things energy is better spent on. [23:05:38] i would do that but its not that this is over [23:05:49] like there's a discussion on the community noticeboard right now started by nale [23:05:58] My best friend always says "Are you going to care about this in 2 years? No? Then don't waste your energy on it, or anyone else's". [23:06:04] I always thought that was rather wise ^ [23:06:09] i've always wanted to say "well i'll just forgot about it if he doesn't do it again" [23:06:11] but then the next day [23:06:16] he'll do something stupid again [23:06:17] Anyway. [23:06:21] On to other topics [23:06:23] alright [23:07:12] Getting lost in something fun always helps too, like a game. [23:07:20] A book, doing something creative. [23:08:21] Am currently piecing together texture pieces of an island from a game for our wiki. [23:24:52] Good evening. [23:26:26] Hi there! [23:26:53] How's it going? [23:27:11] Not too shabby over here. [23:27:23] Good to hear! [23:29:56] How's you day going? [23:31:13] Not too bad, thanks for asking :) [23:32:53] wait naleksuh is banned on irc? [23:34:54] Yes [23:35:28] Hello carhles! If you have any questions, feel free to ask and someone should answer soon. [23:35:55] do this work [23:35:57] it do [23:47:31] 30d for fighting after warning [23:54:22] Not sure what's going on and frankly it doesn't interest me, but maybe the length and details beyond a yes/no should be kept between the person in question and the people who have a reason to know? I'm not sure how things are done here, but generally it's not a good look to talk about these kinds of things in a public channel. [23:59:47] the latest incident is unusual and definitely not the sort of thing that is expected here, it will hopefully pass soon