[00:00:09] Being a Steward does not give you an exemption in UK law [00:00:24] And to add on to that, how does mis-accessing PII equate to an IBAN between Nale and raidarr? [00:00:39] and even in IBANs, users are still permitted to talk about the user they have an IBAN with [00:00:40] 2 separate but equally serious issues [00:00:42] just not to them [00:00:51] I fail to see how raidarr did anything any other steward in the history of MH hasnt done before [00:01:08] [1/2] so after a quick skim, he used CheckUser? as in...ip tools that the vast majority of websites use...? [00:01:08] [2/2] wait am I breaking the law when I click the "online users" list on a forum I'm an admin on and it shows me the IP addresses of everyone online [00:01:21] I think I know why he was banned but I'm unsure why he was banned just now and not in the past [00:01:35] what is it [00:01:37] So question by law you cant reveal any checkuser or personal user information [00:01:45] well I can't share [00:01:53] Owen will slap me with a trout \:P [00:02:02] You can, under specific circumstances [00:02:26] @Orduin: anything to add here? [00:02:36] What is the policy on third party mediation owen? [00:02:38] Owen shared some of the info with you as he said [00:02:55] im curious so since he violated his NDA what happens to his NDA which he signed [00:02:55] would appreciate your take if it was valid or not [00:03:07] I think it's futile to keep arguing this [00:03:12] I seem to remember Nale complaining about personal information being revealed and nobody involved in the discussion having any idea what he was talking about, but I guess I missed the end of that discussion [00:03:18] it is better to move on imo [00:03:25] no grievance will be solved [00:03:27] how though- [00:03:29] It will now cease move forward to be valid [00:03:42] @Owen [00:03:48] this sets an extremely bad precedent as Zppix said [00:03:55] no grievance will be solved so what's the point [00:04:00] This drama isn't worth it the actions already been taken [00:04:05] it's obvious nothing will change Raidarr's ban [00:04:10] This situation calls for an RfC [00:04:19] RfCs are unenforcable on T&S [00:04:24] I’m beyond changing that, I’m looking at overall [00:04:26] No policy, but there's a process to follow initially which is the Board can be asked to review [00:04:28] no but I'm asking for clarity on the situation [00:04:41] I'm not making any statements until I get the full context. [00:04:42] and then subsequently what needs to be done going forward [00:04:48] Nothing will change this is a trust and safety matter a RFC wont change anything [00:04:50] including possible third party mediation on the situation [00:05:12] I dont think we have enough people on the board for a neutral board review [00:05:27] it's literally Void [00:05:33] that's it if Owen recuses himself [00:05:49] Why do anything for Radairr if he doesnt even wanna come back its not worth it [00:06:00] Its not just for radiarr [00:06:09] This is going forward [00:06:30] I think its time to lay this to rest [00:06:34] Its an overall bad precedent to set [00:07:11] no, absolutely not [00:07:14] Not acting is an even worse precedent to set, as that's what even got us to this point [00:07:54] is it within my rights to request that the board review the material and submit a review to the community? [00:07:59] This is ridiculous we been arguing an hour [00:08:04] I believe something can be put together without disclosing PII [00:08:06] Indeed, not acting is the death of Miraheze [00:08:17] obviously, someone like Nale should've been locked years ago [00:08:19] but acting wrongly is worse than not acting even [00:08:20] but we're too permissive [00:08:28] we wouldn't even be here [00:08:28] So is overreacting [00:08:32] sad we're just now coming into the realization [00:08:35] It won't go to the community [00:08:55] You can't ask the community to weigh in on a matter he has no information about [00:09:45] i'm asking for the information to be presented [00:10:12] You can't present private material publicly [00:10:24] why talk about what should of been done instead do what needs to be done, its sad that @CosmicAlpha is the one who finally Makes the rfc [00:10:24] then exclude the private elements of this [00:11:07] And give the community a half baked picture that means it lacks the information needed to make a decision? [00:12:00] I don't know, anything here would be appreciated [00:12:20] So then give details to someone with an nda like myself [00:12:35] Im getting out of this ttyl [00:12:35] and I am happy to sign an NDA myself if needed as well [00:13:53] I'm not going to share T&S information with people randomly with NDAs. There's a process of review that exists, what I've shared already is probably about as much as I can share [00:14:44] @Agent see DMs if you can, this is slightly more urgent than what I had written before [00:15:46] And from my perspective this conversation is now just looping around this topic, so I won't be engaging any further to justify the decision that has been taken. Perhaps speak with Raidarr and ask why he did to get banned and why he intentionally breached restrictions knowing the outcome that was coming instead of appealing [00:16:08] I’m not asking you to, I’m asking you to share with 1 person, and considering I have experience in Miraheze handling PII in my role as former sre, I already have been through all the nescarry steps [00:17:03] Yall just leave owen alone [00:17:13] That's rather unfortunate [00:17:16] But seals the deal for me [00:17:40] no one touch owen [00:17:52] Its very troubling the lack of intention to entertain ideas from the community [00:17:54] No one is [00:18:06] jesus who's saying they're going to harm Owen here [00:18:18] Bro [00:18:27] Cocopuff, everyone already stood down, please find another way to spend your time today if this is distressing you. [00:18:39] Good idea [00:19:30] heh, Miraheze is so slow I can't even load Special:UserRights [00:20:11] There's been more than enough opportunities for the community to get involved over the years, this might be something that turns the tide - all ideas have always been given the appropriate airspace, but sharing private information with public people and those outside of the sphere is not one Miraheze Limited is going to entertain unfortunately [00:20:31] And if that is going to be a problem that my opinion is that, I am happy to step down [00:21:10] Ur opinion isnt a problem @Owen atleast to me [00:21:54] for future Stewards, make sure to first remove your global rights and then your local rights [00:21:57] if there are any, that is [00:22:31] That statement reads as if that would include outside mediators [00:23:14] I'll do a few more Steward tasks before resigning completely [00:23:19] As there is no stance on that yet formally, it may be construed in that sense until it is considered by the Board [00:23:25] if anyone wants something done, speak now or forever hold your peace lol [00:23:30] Good luck with ur future @Agent [00:23:34] thanks [00:23:47] oh you just self locked [00:23:52] ye [00:23:56] Will there be a Steward hiring after this? [00:24:04] Bye agent thanks for evsrything you done [00:24:06] You can always run for Steward [00:24:10] I think we should have discussions on thos [00:24:10] Who would run? [00:24:14] exactly [00:24:16] that's the issue [00:24:27] @Orduin CosmicAlpha and Agent will need permissions removals on Discord [00:24:39] I have not resigned Discord admin yet [00:24:39] Who said I resigned from here? [00:24:42] and then any IRC chanops can take care of the rest (CA has group contact on IRC) [00:24:49] I'm not out of SRE yet [00:24:50] Most of us Dont qualitfy for steward [00:25:17] oh? [00:25:22] I qualify but wouldnt pass nor do I want to [00:25:23] not yet [00:25:24] Re, who would run for steward, I'm willing to step up, if the community would trust me [00:25:32] you self-locked so I assumed you were resigning [00:25:33] I don't think you'd make a good fit [00:25:36] respectfully [00:25:44] Too early amanda [00:25:50] I only resigned global steward, not local steward [00:26:03] I'm still finalizing some details [00:26:04] is there anyone that would [00:26:06] I offered to be a Steward, but Agent said that I don't have the abilities required of a Steward [00:26:14] are u resigning fully @Agent [00:26:15] indeed you don't [00:26:16] we could bring back Doug :p [00:26:20] No [00:26:24] Doug is too inactive to come bacl [00:26:26] noo dough [00:26:33] Exactly [00:26:39] we just wont have another steward [00:26:56] is my idea [00:27:03] actually [00:27:15] @NotAracham any interest? [00:27:25] We may, or may not. The community will decide when the right candidate comes along. [00:27:39] Ill vote aracham in [00:27:50] He's not Aracham [00:27:50] Hang on... wouldn't having only one steward itself be a violation since there needs to be at least two people with CU/OS acccess at any given time? [00:28:05] It would, but there's two Stewards [00:28:18] I had thoughts about running in August potentially, but am still assessing the situation. [00:28:22] That only applies to locally elected CheckUsers and Oversighters [00:28:25] not to Stewards [00:28:31] I do believe you would be supported if you chose to ran today [00:29:01] I have decided to hold off from fully resigning seeing the sorry state that the farm is at [00:29:11] ...but if there was only one steward, who would audit/monitor them? [00:29:12] i think CA's resignation needs processing [00:29:24] AmandaCath: no one [00:29:26] the board I guess [00:29:35] nothing in policy precludes there only being 1 Steward [00:29:37] theoretically [00:29:46] in fact, theoretically, there could even be no Stewards [00:29:52] We will have void [00:30:10] I don't know whether Reception would resign though [00:30:12] Are u fully resigning everything @Agent [00:30:17] Not yet [00:30:27] I don't believe there's anyone to replace me [00:30:37] and I don't want to give a certain someone the pleasure of seeing this [00:30:44] Well looks like agent is staying [00:30:59] Well, yeah there definitely could be no stewards. But if there was only one, how do we know that one steward isn't going off the rails with CU/OS/other stuff that isn't public logged [00:31:10] board [00:31:11] No Stewards!? Then who would take care of stuff!? [00:31:13] Nothing can be done for Miraheze anymore in my mind. Probably tomorrow I'll be cutting all ties with the farm, and request my own vanishing on wiki. [00:31:27] Worse case scenario, SRE [00:31:29] @AmandaCath, Even if Agent resigned today, there'd still be two, at least for now: Reception123 and Void [00:31:37] I think we have a malliable structure imo [00:31:40] We just have to be bold [00:31:44] Im tired of all the drama im leaving miraheze too [00:31:47] Sre used to help stewards back in the day [00:32:01] i think you have to re-add autopatrolled and global renamer locally [00:32:07] no, I won't [00:32:11] Bye everyone [00:32:13] oh [00:32:17] Bye Cocopuff [00:32:17] It doesn’t have to be your address? MH has ample funds to pay for a mail address for Companies House. [00:32:25] see yall later good luck [00:33:13] I wouldn't say ample funds considering 3 times in the last 12 months there have been grave concerns around paying hosting bills [00:34:43] Deep pockets! [00:35:03] Huh, I actually didn't realize that Reception was steward now too.. thought they were just SRE [00:35:11] Is there a separate list than wiki discover for wikis hosted by custom domain? [00:35:36] I don't think so [00:35:49] Is the info in wiki discover? [00:35:57] There is not [00:36:06] frankly if people are curious here [00:36:30] who here thinks that they have the technical know-how for SRE, but aren't sure if they want to do it? [00:36:40] -kick @Cocopuff2018 bye [00:36:43] I have no technical expertise so [00:37:02] Performing kick, per request. [00:37:02] [1/2] For a final record: I'll be requesting a vanish soon. Nothing can be done for Miraheze anymore. I'm done here permanently, and my promise is this: never will I return to Miraheze whatsoever, I will not help with security reviews anymore, I will not help with technical advisements as I have done in the past since I resigned from SRE. My entire faith in the institution/organiz [00:37:03] [2/2] ation have been irreparably lost. So wish Miraheze Goodluck but without my faith in it whatsoever anymore. [00:37:24] leave me for now @NotAracham [00:37:26] And an address is perhaps £60 for the year? If Miraheze can’t afford that then there is something really wrong with how you are spending the funds. [00:37:26] I have a technical background (used to be cybersecurity consultant), but not sure if it matches what would be needed [00:37:53] this might help for security reviews [00:38:07] So a private mailbox at postal office? [00:38:42] That would be a decision for someone else to make other than me - I don't see the need to make such an expense currently [00:38:46] Well, technically IT consultant with security background. My security experience isn't in PHP though [00:38:47] No, you pay a company and use their office address and they route your mail to you/scan it. [00:39:05] There is something deeply wrong with our funding model if anything [00:39:08] We're a charity at this point [00:39:09] IDK if I could do something MediaWiki-related [00:39:24] oh this means so much [00:39:52] It is and wiki discover for active English wikis seem to not suggest a lot of worthwhile wikis if I'm being honest [00:40:46] what are you looking for specifically? [00:40:56] @CosmicAlpha do we process your resignation then? [00:41:02] I guess my question is: is there a greater need for SRE, or for the community roles (steward/CVT/etc) [00:41:08] including from the board [00:41:38] both [00:41:50] AmandaCath: my analysis is yes in some positions. CVT could use some hands, and with CA leaving I would assume Meta admin might need one more too. but SRE is very much where the need is [00:41:51] YES! Not from the board yet, one last thing planned before I leave that. [00:42:08] We have some good wikis but also quite a lot of wikis which don't contribute much back to Miraheze [00:42:11] are you going to review the raidarr thing [00:42:15] Wikis worth saving in case of worst scenario, basically backup in waiting [00:42:19] we have a huge number of private wikis [00:42:50] thats kinda subjective tho, no? [00:43:02] Can you name those, if possible? [00:43:20] I am part of wb wikis, are they worth saving to you? [00:43:37] I literally say yokaiwatch, visited and it's dead [00:44:11] AVID, All The Tropes, NATO, Polandball Wiki, among others [00:44:39] Are those actively edited? [00:44:45] ye [00:44:51] Then yes [00:45:04] nice [00:45:12] I don't think there should be any panic for now [00:46:44] I'm going to take a minute [00:46:57] regardless, I want to thank all past and present volunteers for what they did, I really appreciate it and it insipred me to try to contribute back [00:47:21] @Agent whenever you have time, there are definitely less pressing things that would be nice to discuss with you via DMs so let me know when you're around, but again, not urgent [00:47:27] Maybe i could do MW Software Engineer, since I do have the MediaWiiki and PHP experience, as well as some background with CSS/JS [00:47:40] that would be extremely helpful [00:47:49] though, with me not being located in the UK and thus not having access to the physical "server room", is that a blocker? [00:48:03] no it is not [00:48:07] no MWE has physical server access [00:48:25] Oh ok [00:49:47] Excuse me, where can I find the LocalSettings.php? [00:49:55] Most settings are in ManageWiki [00:49:59] Oh hey AmandaCath, long time no see. [00:50:39] MH LocalSettings.php is public on GitHub, but as Agent said, anything you can change is in ManageWiki. [00:50:40] @hypercane did u see my dm [00:52:22] Is there an SRE application form somewhere? [00:52:46] You do it on github [00:52:55] I am trying to figure out why the special pages associated with the extensions I installed aren't working. [00:53:06] No, you file an access request on Phabricator [00:53:12] i meam the other platform [00:53:36] Is the extension enabled at Special:Version? [00:54:28] I think so? [00:54:42] Some you can enable but are disabled fir security reasons [00:55:09] Well, I am trying to enable Newest Pages so... [00:55:25] Run update.php? [00:55:34] How do I do that? [00:55:54] M3w, please stop suggestiong things the user can't do. [00:56:41] Liberonscien, is this a wiki hosted by Miraheze or a wiki you're self hosting? [00:56:54] A Miraheze wiki. [00:57:11] You would use managewiki [00:57:31] Special:ManageWiki/extensions? [00:57:41] Yes, go there, then to the Special Pages section [00:58:00] Wasnt i leaving? [00:58:04] Please confirm if "newest pages" is checked. If not, you'll need to enable it there and save changes. [00:58:32] You need to check the extension is enabled on Special:Version—it might b not have been enabled despite being ticket that can happen sometimes if the cache doesn’t update. [00:58:36] You can also use the 'search managewiki' box at top left (thanks CosmicAlpha for implementing!) to search it directly. [00:59:18] Yep, so in this case, as Original Authority suggested, you can check if it installed correctly by going to the Special:Version page on your wiki [01:01:05] https://phabricator.miraheze.org/T10931 [01:01:05] Doesn't look like it: [01:01:27] I assume i did that right [01:02:12] I don't understand. This one installed just fine: [01:04:04] You might need SRE to regenerate the ManageWiki cache for that wiki. [01:04:22] "SRE"? [01:04:30] Sysadmins [01:04:37] Hmm. [01:04:45] @Agent can we remove the cooldown for this channel [01:05:21] done [01:07:56] How can I get one of those? [01:09:02] For the record: I am not leaving Miraheze anytime soon; however, I've just made backups on every wiki that I am able to in case that Miraheze does go down [01:09:23] But for some reason, I can't download the dumps I made on my personal wiki (https://tali64.miraheze.org) [01:09:24] I don't think it'll deadpool any time soon [01:09:37] the more likely reason Miraheze will shutdown is funding if anything [01:10:10] @Site Reliability Engineers ^ [01:10:26] probably a corrupted revision [01:11:19] It's saying that I'm not authorized to access them despite me having bureaucrat + administrator rights [01:11:20] Agent can you regenerate @liberonscien ManageWiki cache? [01:11:30] oh [01:11:34] No; Agent resigned as SRE [01:11:38] I have not [01:11:52] I’m well aware of the discussion, but they have not yet. [01:11:52] Having looked a bit more, it doesn't look like I qualify for GS or Steward yet as I don't have the 1000 global edits. but it looks like I'd qualify for Meta admin and/or wiki creator, if the community would trust/support me in those rles [01:11:54] I would first try disabling it, saving, then re-enabling again. If that fails, you'll want to file a [[Phabricator]] ticket [01:11:54] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Phabricator [01:11:55] [01:12:14] Void seems to have fixed it [01:12:17] @Tali64 try again [01:12:23] ye [01:12:28] I'll try that then. [01:12:39] What's your wiki's URL? [01:12:45] https://fanficwiki.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page [01:13:01] curious re this - would anyone support? [01:13:31] no [01:13:37] Too soon tbh, and at the moment theres not a huge need for meta sysops [01:14:00] Meta sysops dont really have a huge workload as it is rn [01:16:28] At the rate I'm going I'll secure a thousand edits in a month or less. I find it interesting how that means something. [01:18:43] DataDumps can handle image dumps again, but I've left it at managewiki-restricted (stewards + SRE only) for the time being. [01:18:53] ooo, nice! [01:18:58] great timing \;) [01:19:16] It's one criteria of many, but is a proxy for platform involvement, general MediaWiki knowledge and provides a body of work to review. [01:19:41] @Orduin i have a request can you do it [01:19:42] Not a perfect proxy by any stretch, but it's more than nothing. [01:19:53] nods I'm not looking for a job or anything. Just thought that was interesting. [01:20:27] For sure, just thought that was a fun bit of rationale trivia [01:20:52] nods [01:20:55] Anyways, how can I file a Phabricator ticket? [01:21:20] Just go to this link https://phabricator.miraheze.org/maniphest/task/edit/form/1/ [01:21:27] make sure you're logged in [01:22:32] Use the button that says "Login or register" with the MediaWiki logo on it when setting up your phabricator account [01:25:45] More instructions are also on that Phabricator article I linked earlier [01:32:39] What tags should I use for this? [01:32:53] If any? [01:33:08] Should we file a Phabricator ticket if we want to have text + image dumps of our wikis? [01:33:27] Text you can do via DataDump [01:33:30] Images I can do now [01:33:32] rip AVID [01:33:45] actually, I don't know if we have the space for that on mwtask141 [01:33:49] AVID is full of images [01:35:54] I won't add any tags. I figure if tags are needed then someone will tag it. [01:36:51] Should be fine as long as it was filed as a generic task [01:38:08] No plans to leave right away, we’re just being prepared. [01:41:20] Good to see ur staying @Agent [01:46:20] Always good to have a backup. You don't back up because you're planning on something, you back up because the universe is a chaotic place and you never know when the sky might come falling down. [01:46:41] In which case, we better have found a habitable planet to evacuate onto! [01:47:29] Seconding that -- Nothing wrong with a good contingency plan, thanks for your continued presence for now [01:48:01] Fixed! Thank you! [01:48:30] Whats this going towards [01:56:00] Glad to hear it! Thanks for reporting back. [01:57:18] So I'm going to need to sign off in a few minutes, but I just wanted to unequivocally state that I want to see the Miraheze project continue to grow and prosper, and that I'm willing to step up and take on whatever roles/task(s) are necessary for that to occur. Please do comment at [01:57:19] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Community_noticeboard#Recruitment/Vacancies if anyone has any other ideas, and don't hesitate to email me either. [02:02:54] Miraheze down for anyone else? [02:03:08] Yes [02:04:01] the end is neigh sooner than expected. [02:04:29] probably PHP-FPM acting up [02:04:37] I was able to load Meta though [02:04:47] Took a while to load, including meta, but got there [02:05:00] yeah, that's indicative of php running out of workers [02:05:11] what's php? [02:05:28] Just like Miraheze is seemingly also running out of workers 🤦🏻‍♂️ [02:05:55] nvm [02:06:41] Miraheze never had any workers 😉 [02:06:44] only volunteers [02:07:31] People who work on Miraheze are "workers" workers can be volunteers also. [02:07:32] Is the stability of Miraheze a concern with PHP having issues? [02:08:02] !night [02:08:02] Good night, sweet dreams and dream of the miraheze servers without errors! [02:08:15] Yay, that still works lol [02:08:51] It's been doing that off and on for years, not a super big concern [02:08:57] Alright [02:10:13] Skeeter davis- End of the World 🤣 [02:19:31] @Agent did you resign? [02:19:48] you haven't removed roles but have noted it on the Stewards list and chart [02:19:51] Not yet they are sleeping on it for now [02:19:53] so wanted to clarify [02:20:04] But they plan on it for what i understand [02:20:48] that's unfortunate [02:22:41] Yeah, basically what Zppix said [02:23:22] I'm getting some final affairs handled and will then be exiting [02:23:27] I'm basically just waiting for Reception123 [02:23:35] Ah [02:23:46] is he planning to resign? [02:23:57] Well, he's been sleeping during the whole ordeal [02:24:00] so I don't know [02:24:02] Reception123 doesnt even know what happened. [02:24:13] Any chance you remain on MH even though you resigned? [02:24:16] or a complete exit [02:24:24] would help a lot if you stuck around, even without any roles [02:24:54] No, it'll be a complete exit [02:25:00] I can't stand to see Miraheze die [02:25:09] I'm not sure anyone outside of half a dozen people do. Lots of resignations and nobody will say what is causing it apart from "Lost faith in MH" [02:25:09] I won't be able to take it [02:25:29] TL;DR: A user got globally banned [02:26:04] That user being Naleksuh or someone else before that? [02:26:08] nale [02:26:14] someone else because of Naleksuh [02:26:14] A former Steward [02:26:23] wrongfully [02:26:36] that too [02:26:56] i'll begin removing you from the documentation pages then [02:27:08] i'm sad this is how it goed [02:27:20] i feel like we could've done something differently.... [02:27:47] It's just how it goes sometimes, I've been on communities long enough to know that this is inevitable in some aspects. [02:27:53] I don't know where I go next [02:27:56] It is sad though I Agree [02:28:00] Nowhere [02:28:03] Don’t worry I won’t go quitely [02:28:03] You stay here if you want to [02:28:09] No one is shutting down Miraheze [02:29:01] Me and reception have been basically the only OGs for a while now [02:29:15] Yeah, nobody is shutting it down. I wouldn't panic just yet. [02:29:22] I'm more concerned about the platform eventually becoming like ShoutWiki did [02:29:25] My 7 year journey with Miraheze ends tonight [02:29:28] sadly [02:29:28] I've also been here since...2018 [02:29:35] oof, and with the 1.40 update coming soon [02:29:37] any chance you'll ever return? [02:29:37] interesting [02:29:38] I feel bad [02:29:56] [1/2] Trust me this isn't easy for anyone. Myself included. This all saddens me deeply. I have cared for Miraheze for a long time, but all things don't last. Miraheze will stay for the foreseeable future, and all that is happened is saddening, but the way Miraheze functions, this has been a long time coming. A lot has happened that led to this, that I can't into full detail right [02:29:57] [2/2] now, as that would take all night. [02:29:59] Ive been here since 2017 [02:30:01] So why is this global ban not an RFC, in the same way the Nale RFC exists? Is this an irreversible but also private decision or something? [02:30:15] Because it was a trust and saftey action. [02:30:22] trust and safety [02:30:25] again so [02:30:42] Yeah...T&S from what I can undertand are not easily reversible (?) [02:30:50] not in the slightest [02:30:58] T&S actions can only be undone by T&S [02:31:02] No one else [02:31:04] Ah, I see [02:31:07] Makes sense ig [02:31:09] No appeals, nothing [02:31:21] Appeals exist, via T&S itself [02:31:31] You have to prove they were wrong [02:31:39] Exist, but practical? [02:31:44] anyone want to try and go for T/S? [02:31:52] No [02:32:13] Not I, even though I'm not qualified anyway. [02:32:15] Owen could use some help, I feel bad it's only him and Void on the legal side of things right now.... [02:32:17] It is not easy whatsoever, basically they don't exist, just for formality do, but likelihood of proving to T&S that they themselves were wrong isnbery hard... [02:32:22] legal = board and T/S [02:32:59] I already have a request into the board, its up to them to decide if they are going to care to do it [02:33:37] If I was more active, I would probably have been a good candidate for other things. I just seem to have low-energy these days with my presence it seems. [02:33:41] I'd lose a lot of faith if they didn't [02:33:57] NGL every interaction I've had with any T&S has been a nightmare in the worst ways. [02:34:06] @CosmicAlpha so to clarify, you're requesting a vanish, but will keep Discord/IRC permissions? [02:34:06] Ill go down that path if thats what happens [02:34:19] i'll join you with that [02:34:33] I rather that I do this with people I know [02:34:46] oh...kay [02:34:50] Because I’m going all in [02:34:56] I have not yet, but for now I will be keeping Discord/IRC, that might change tomorrow. [02:35:04] okay [02:35:14] Do we know who the said global banned user was? Or is that info somehow private too [02:35:22] if you ever want any help with anything, let me know [02:35:24] i know i [02:35:35] Thats about the only thing not private [02:35:39] Raidarr. [02:37:01] the challenge with offboarding CA and AI [02:37:09] is that there are so many docs to update 😂 [02:37:15] I can imagine [02:37:40] T&S has a solution [02:38:06] @zppix see DMs [02:38:18] Agent and I basically had more rights than any one else, which wasnt always a good thing... [02:39:52] Yeah, principle of 'separation of duties' was unfortunately not so much followed out of necessity. 😦 [02:40:03] I mean its not any better than a sole person being the entire t&s team [02:40:22] That is a logistical issue for sure... [02:40:33] Its a bias issue [02:40:37] Too many hats, too few heads both willing, community-vouched and qualified to wear them. [02:40:38] @Agent and for clarity same question to you here [02:40:58] I kind of think we just need to start taking chances? [02:40:59] My IRC perms are entirely linked to me being an SRE member [02:41:04] I wouldn't mind seeing Tali in a CVT role [02:41:05] Thats why I was annoyed that they created a separate T&S team [02:41:10] I am basically waiting for Reception123 before deciding on IRC GC resignation. [02:41:15] or Bukkit [02:41:52] Miraheze was never large enough for that, just spread things further. But it also had its reasons as well... [02:42:18] I agree it had reasons, but it was rushed and messy [02:42:37] I feel the same way about when the two SRE teams split into two teems, it just devided things further in my opinion. Again there was reasons and benefits also... [02:42:56] Sre has always had teams it just wasnt official [02:43:14] When I was SRE, I was on the MWE, and puppet-admins team [02:43:58] Yes, but both "teams" helped on MediaWiki, and then those with root access did infrastructure work. MediaWiki always needed more help. When the teams split collaboration reduced, and MW became a bit slower. [02:44:12] I believe that Global Sysop would probably be the one I ultimately run for first, since being a Steward has a lot of responsibilites [02:44:20] of course [02:44:30] I will consider Stewardship eventually due to Miraheze's current situation [02:44:33] Best of luck to you [02:45:16] The phrase puppet-admin always makes me chuckle. A mental image somewhere between marionette enthusiasts and Master of Puppets by Metallica. Maybe room for some Weird Al to parody. 😄 [02:45:24] lol [02:45:34] Lol yeah, it doesn't exist anymore though... [02:45:42] jeez I'm still doing docs removals [02:46:46] oh I just realized [02:46:54] @Reception123 is now the only Meta interface admin [02:47:03] previously we had UO, Agent, Doug, and Nale [02:47:07] now those 4 are gone [02:47:08] All sysops inherit IA [02:47:23] So I am also technically an IA [02:47:24] They do not [02:47:24] And AmandaCath at one poiny IIRC [02:47:36] Uhh i can edit the namespace 😂 [02:47:36] oh [02:47:37] They can only edit interface messages, not CSS and JS [02:47:48] Try editing Common.css [02:47:54] or rather, Common.js [02:47:54] there are so many docs pages [02:48:24] is it alright if Agent keeps the autopatrolled role [02:48:31] Well thats weird but i could technically just grant myself ia lol [02:48:37] You can't [02:48:43] Only bureaucrats can [02:48:49] sysop can remove not grant [02:49:03] Thats weird [02:49:19] Just saw the notif for a global ban request for Naleksuh [02:50:12] 100% support, the dude constantly fucks up. I've had negative interactions with them in tf2 projects like Custom TF2 Weapons and Creators.tf and the TF2 Wiki where he spent his time slamming me (as I am banned from the TF2 Wiki due to terrible staffing over there) in their public irc whenever my name was brought up [02:50:12] @tf2cutcontent Watch your language. [02:51:00] That's all I wanted to say. 100% support a global ban for that dude, he's just terrible. Saw your announcement in another discord server that is broadcasting the events [02:51:20] you'd have to vote on-wiki [02:51:26] Ehhhhhh [02:51:57] Too lazy but I see he's already got overwhelming support to GTAB™️ [02:52:04] (get that ass banned) [02:52:39] true but every vote matters [02:52:42] up to you of course though [02:53:13] I think I finished up removals for UO/Agent on Meta documentation? [02:53:15] Thanks for this bit of levity in a pretty dang rough day. [02:53:48] Always a shame to see it reach a point where a user gets banned, but that's absolutely not the acronym I was expecting. 😄 [02:55:44] well, seeing as there are only 3 meta sysops left, I am considering (re)requesting the role since that means not many people could currently action meta sysop tasks [02:56:13] hahah [02:56:23] MacFan4000: I was considering running actually [02:56:32] we only have 3 left, 2 more might be beneficial? [02:56:33] This has been a rough day for us all. [02:56:40] I can only imagine [02:56:50] 5 total also breaks a theoretical impasse where a decision needs to be made and it's 2-2 [02:57:07] I can't imagine how hard it's been on you, Agent, and raidarr [02:57:16] i am so sorry [02:57:17] I was previously a sysop, and I had a pretty decent amount of activity in that capacity [02:57:24] yep [02:57:35] When going to sleep yesterday and waking up this morning, this is not how I thought today would go... [02:57:45] granted that was nearly 4 years ago [02:58:26] We really dont need more meta sysops we really dont have a large workload [02:59:45] Well... that list IS gonna dwindle to 1 member that doesn't have significant other responsibilities on the/to the platform. Training up or re-recruiting others wouldn't be the worst idea. [02:59:58] [1/4] yes but the 3 are currently: [02:59:58] [2/4] a) an SRE, steward [02:59:58] [3/4] b) you [02:59:59] [4/4] c) an SRE, steward, board [03:00:09] It has been an honour to be a part for Miraheze for the past few years. Unfortunately, nothing lasts forever. And Miraheze just doesn't seem to me like what it used to be a few years ago when I joined... [03:00:28] in case you ever decide to return, maybe don't request a vanish? [03:00:38] Glad to have had you, CA [03:00:44] A vanish is reversible [03:00:54] also would add that with recent resignations, those responsibilities will significantly expand [03:00:57] GDPR request is not. [03:01:15] I was under the impression vanish = GDPR request [03:01:25] No, two seperate things. [03:01:36] One is Stewards the other is T&S [03:01:46] The gdpr one is also referred to as a irreversible vanish sometimes [03:02:22] Though I might just request my account be locked and not a vanish at all, who knows... [03:02:25] Ah [03:02:30] this might be better [03:02:35] harder to reverse a vanish [03:02:39] not impossible, just more work [03:03:22] oh hi dmehus [03:03:25] what's new [03:03:28] There is like a 1% chance of me ever returning at this point tbh though [03:03:33] Wishing you and WikiForge a blissful voyage beyond Miraheze, and big sympathy from me for today's turbulence. Not how I planned to spend my day off. 😄 [03:03:41] there is that 1% though [03:04:00] maybe we should pause miraheze for 3 days and everyone takes a vacation, y'know? [03:04:08] i just took a week break [03:04:32] Always good to keep and reinstate that balance from time to time. [03:04:42] a=yep [03:04:47] yep [03:05:05] mhm [03:05:15] MacFan4000: you around? [03:05:20] yes [03:05:38] see PMs on IRC [03:05:46] Just enabled 2FA, may make my GS request soon [03:05:57] Probably tomorrow or the day after that [03:06:05] you have interesting points of view [03:06:37] me? [03:06:38] or tali [03:06:54] Yes? [03:07:07] hahahah [03:07:11] You two are fun. 😄 [03:07:13] I agree :p [03:07:16] Miraheze is currently severely understaffed; on the community side of things, there are only two Stewards and one Global Sysop [03:07:24] Me being a GS will help with that [03:07:47] quick thought though, might be wise to wait until after the Nale CBAN is closed [03:07:58] for obvious reasons [03:08:14] This has been an interesting journey for me; when I joined Miraheze, I wanted a place where I could write funny articles on my humor wiki [03:08:39] I never thought I'd be a wiki creator or be considering Global Sysopship (is that a real word?) [03:08:56] I guess so? [03:13:05] Wow, everyone's voting support on the Naleksuh RfC; even Dmehus returned to support it [03:13:38] That is the one thing that could have lasting beneficial impact coming out of today. [03:13:46] yes [03:14:03] oh, now 100% of the libera GC responsibilities fall to reception [03:14:25] (as the only active one) [03:14:25] CA hasn't resigned that AFAIK [03:14:29] I have not resigned that, and NDKilla is still one. [03:14:47] NDKilla hasn't acted in that capacity in years [03:14:56] I am waiting to talk to Reception123 before deciding on that... [03:16:25] Yes, I'm waiting for Reception123 before resigning all roles [03:16:32] I have to give him a personal apology for it [03:16:54] I feel shitty for Reception123 [03:16:58] when he wakes up.... [03:17:05] actually you know what I just realized? [03:17:15] 16 support votes wow [03:17:22] Me too... it isn't ideal for that... [03:17:24] removing AI and UO was so much work because there was no separation of powers due to their having so many roles [03:17:40] it could theoretically become that again with some new combination of users [03:17:51] someone needs to be a new IRC GC if UO resigns [03:18:17] and it may just end up being Void or paladox or MacFan4000 [03:18:59] I might stay as IRC GC, I don't intend to disappear from the entire IRC platform... [03:19:18] Until/if another is appointed anyway... [03:19:53] oh, I just realized that Raidarr was banned from herew [03:20:00] I thought he left by choice [03:20:03] but no, he was ousted\ [03:20:05] it's kind of messed up [03:20:12] Yeah... [03:20:14] I don't know I'd support a Discord ban [03:20:21] well obviously I don't but anyway [03:20:49] I knew for a bit apparently but yikes is the only word I can really say atm. [03:21:03] Yes, I guess he was banned here also. [03:21:12] I saw that in the audit log a while ago... [03:21:15] technically they could join via IRC but they don't really use it [03:21:28] 18 support votes now on the Nale CBAN [03:21:30] so far it's unanimous [03:21:34] 18-0-0 [03:21:38] good ridance [03:21:40] but at what expense? [03:21:45] There will be no project soon [03:21:52] 1 oppose actually from nale himself [03:21:57] The discord ban is due to the T&S ban [03:21:58] lol [03:22:14] T&S ban includes all Mh related spaces sadly [03:22:20] 1 "oppose" ig, since it doesn't really count now. For obvious reasons. [03:22:26] MacFan4000: oppose isn't technically valid [03:22:32] Banning Naleksuh doesn't change anything for me. It is good to finally have some accountability but Naleksuh has caused so much harm to Miraheze. [03:22:40] It is valid. [03:22:46] This should of happened months ago [03:22:55] comment is but not oppose vote [03:23:05] Yes, it is. [03:23:07] I predicted this almost, I had been saying for a long time that he needed to go [03:23:16] well T&S technically speaking have no actual power over IRC since the one member doesn't even use the platform [03:23:17] The vote is valid [03:23:35] Not like it'll change much either way [03:23:50] At the rate its going [03:23:53] Yes, recent events leading around Raidarr were what fully prompted me to post it now. But it has caused a lot of issues in of itself... [03:23:54] not per Reception123 but who cares to be honest [03:24:01] it's either 18-0-0 or 18-1-0 [03:24:07] It doesn't really matter much yeah [03:24:13] It is valid but irrelevant. [03:24:13] either way [03:24:18] Yeah tbh his opinion is invalid [03:25:20] I really hope we can fix this [03:25:31] so do I [03:26:11] mhm [03:26:19] I wish so, but realistically I don't think so. It is broken from the core. [03:26:58] Depends on the level of cooperation we get [03:27:32] I might be naive, but I always think it’s possible to fix broken things and make them stronger [03:28:19] Cause frankly the thing ive done tonight is just step 1, I have so much more things to propose that are much more what could be considered extreme and crazy, but I don’t care at this point [03:29:33] what did you submit to the board [03:29:36] Honestly, w/e works at this point [03:29:51] I’m waiting til we get a response before I bring that to the public [03:29:55] got it [03:29:56] I want to give them time to respons [03:29:58] I don't think the Board will solve anything [03:30:34] Lmao Naleksuh undid my vote [03:30:43] What was the point in registering to vote then lol [03:30:49] Im not asking them to [03:30:50] Is Nale allowed to do that? [03:30:52] police their own vote [03:30:56] He cited some policy [03:30:56] that technically a valid policy [03:31:01] But he's done this type of thing a lot [03:31:02] ehhhhh [03:31:06] that is* [03:31:10] He likes to police stuff involving himself [03:32:04] I'm trying to focus on writing something right now [03:32:11] anyone else want to check if it's valid? [03:32:15] i'll do it after [03:32:52] Yeah I skimmed it real quick, it is a valid policy. I mean tbh I saw the notification of this through another discord server that has announcements from here forwarded and only took notice because I recognized the name [03:33:30] when was your account created [03:33:41] like before yesterday? [03:33:55] No just now [03:34:05] Cause I left a vote unregistered and it was removed, so I registeres [03:34:19] As stated here, I am new here [03:35:07] Just wanted to provide my experiences with Nale in the TF2 community over the years to you guys here, that was all [03:35:40] how'd you find us, anyway? [03:37:51] [1/2] Sorry for the confusion, your earlier comments suggested to us that you might have been part of a miraheze team fortress wiki that Naleksuh contributes on. [03:37:52] [2/2] Naleksuh is correct on the policy, users that register after a RfC has opened can't vote on it, per [[RfCP]], but they probably shouldn't have been the one to remove your vote as an involved party. [03:37:52] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/RfCP [03:37:52] [03:38:09] Another discord has your announcements forwarded [03:38:15] Ahhhh, makes sense. [03:38:23] I got the discord notif when I woke up today and saw "Naleksuh" [03:38:36] Then I did a spit take [03:38:49] Feel free to reiterate your two cents as a comment on the RfC, that is valid and shoudn't be subject to removal. [03:38:54] oh Dmehus left a message on your talk page [03:40:29] Huh my "previous account"? That was an IP edit [03:40:43] And I'm on cellular mobile data so the IP likes to jump around [03:40:47] please disregard Nale's comment [03:40:49] They were talking about any possible accounts that existed before [03:40:50] it's hatemongering again [03:40:55] Oh I don't have any other accounts [03:41:03] actually on second though @Agent as you're currently still a steward [03:41:03] Yep, so doesn't apply [03:41:13] doesn't nale's comment there fall outside of his purview [03:41:17] that he was unblocked for [03:41:21] To save you time, I'm happy to reinstate as a comment in the comments ection? [03:41:24] yes, it does [03:41:25] I must say, I like this Miraheze thing. It's like Fandom except not trash [03:41:32] that could be a reblock [03:41:37] *should be a reblock [03:41:41] Would be helpful, I've just arrived at work and will be busy [03:41:54] Thanks, will do. [03:42:48] Ope, looks like @imamy beat me to it. 😄 [03:42:58] Don't you just love that [03:43:02] lol [03:43:14] I got edit conflicted earlier myself so [03:43:19] One thing to note about nale's msg on my talk page [03:43:58] Yes I was briefly k-lined from Libera IRC until I contacted them and explained the harassment I was receiving from them and some other folks on Libera. Libera then un-k-lined me [03:44:05] I also do not follow them around [03:45:27] Thanks for the additional context, and welcome to Miraheze. You've arrived at a very interesting time. [03:46:21] I can tell. [03:48:42] I currently self-host my own wiki @ TF2CutContent (dot) wiki, but I've been wanting to reallocate the funds used to pay for the VPS elsewhere. Maybe Mira would be a good alternative to host that wiki on? [03:49:40] My wiki is also kinda very dead and unloved due to my actual work so I'm also contemplating just closing it down entirely [03:56:58] wait so is that a reblock on Nale [03:57:01] God I hate mobile editing on wikis [03:57:24] [1/4] Was trying to reply to Naleksuh providing chat logs of DMs with: [03:57:24] [2/4] > I won't deny that what you've supplied is true, but you are providing those logs without any context as to what was occurring on the tfwiki at the time. You yourself ended up on the wrong side of staff on the tfwiki after all this went down. I was banned from the tfwiki irc channel so DMs were my only way of communicating with you over things you were saying about me in [03:57:25] [3/4] the irc which I could see via the public logging. Context matters. [03:57:25] [4/4] And it was saying action disallowed due to external links? [03:59:09] I'm stuck at work for the next 7.5 hours with no access to my PC so yeah. If there's any questions about stuff Nale is saying about me, I am an open book. [04:00:08] The fun bit of this was they blocked me from the tfwiki irc, then would slam me nonstop, so I'd dm them to contest what they were saying. They ran to Libera staff to claim harassment and got me k-lined briefly until I contacted Libera on my own. [04:04:55] I wouldn't lose worry over this and would advise to continue with your workday as normal. [04:05:13] That would be a better use of your time, honestly. 🙂 [04:13:40] Got my 5¢ in, time to go back into the shadows [04:15:15] Thanks for stopping by, Cabra [04:16:36] Hopefully will be coming back more regularly if the vote goes well and the volunteer resignations don't spiral too hard [04:26:12] @Meta-Wiki Administrators https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Meta:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Naleksuh_edit_warring_again [04:26:38] Looking [04:26:56] Just freaking block him already, policy warrants it again if same conduct occured. [04:27:10] exactly [04:27:24] it literally should be a zero-strike policy [04:28:12] Im blocking him, if he wants to comment on something he’ll just have to request it on his user talk [04:28:19] Otherwise not my problem [04:28:42] I’m not giving anymore chances to him, thats what got us here [04:30:37] "I don't think I did an edit war" <:mattriddle_lmfaobro:960435108517675059> [04:31:36] Don’t care his global ban is succesfull, theres no chance it will fail, so [04:31:37] He never admits things. [04:31:53] He was allowed to vote, by policy thats all we have to do [04:31:54] He is never wrong [04:32:46] I've known him and worked with him closely through the years and he is stubborn, I will say that much. [04:33:12] Reception is taking a wikibreak [04:33:17] I once corrected some of his programming of a custom weapon attribute for a Team Fortress 2 project, and sent it back to him to help him learn and he undid my changes and submitted his broken work [04:35:33] Lol [04:35:54] Just trying to prove to him this wasn't me "stalking" him <:gabeshrug:724707566600585327> [04:36:32] Yeah get used to it [04:36:46] Anything negative gets removed from his talkpage because he believes we wont notice [04:46:57] It's all part of the presentation of him as a good dude and if he doesn't like you he takes any opportunity he can to hide your remarks. I've known him for years and he's always done this. [04:47:57] Shit I just read a bit of #offtopic [04:48:38] So he's responsible for pert near bringing Miraheze down entirely? Shiiiit. [04:49:19] depends, he is basically 97% of it [04:49:38] 3% is old ideas and ways of doing things that we held on to from the very early days [04:49:56] I like the edit war rule change [04:50:04] 3 reverts = a war was dumb [04:50:08] Its not changed as far as I know [04:50:12] Ohhhhh [04:50:19] I thought it was now 1 revert = warring [04:50:26] People falsely use wikipedia policies on Miraheze, when they dont mean anything [04:50:28] Cause if the intent is there.... [04:50:55] I've been wiki editing since Wikipedia came out in 2001 when I was 14. I got my start when Wikipedia did [04:51:03] We have our own policies we dont use wikipedia policies, we sometimes tend to follow the same idea but not exactly [04:53:27] I'd love to help however I can in ensuring Mira doesn't die off [04:53:59] Most of what has happen is a waiting game, and just seeing what happens [04:54:01] But in entirely new here and need to read up on policies first [04:54:03] In lieu of policy, WP essays provide guidance [04:54:25] But it isn't binding and never has been. [04:55:26] Theres not really anything a single person can do unless you have the experience and been around for awhile tbh, navigating the issues we face takes people that know how the platform has worked over the years, its not as simple as flicking a switch [04:55:56] And even then its not even promised to work [04:57:08] We are in a very complicated situation at the moment [04:57:29] Its been complicated for awhile now, but its just now starting to surface [04:57:45] Well I've been on the editor side of things for 22 years and only recently (like 2 years ago) got into self-hosting and learning the internals of MediaWiki [04:57:57] So I might not be the best candidate then lol [04:59:02] Theres no good candidates really, its a matter of just throwing stuff in the dark and hoping [04:59:39] Essentially theres not a damn thing anyone of us can do directly [05:00:10] We just have to hope we can formulate enough good chance to push us back to the right side of things [07:29:37] I wish I had found this place years ago, I could have warned you guys of Naleksuh sooner. [07:36:14] we had big drama back in February, I think? had to be done back then, but discussions would just go back and forth [07:41:25] and people didn't dare to be harsher too [08:01:32] Well as said before, I had worked with him on a couple team fortress 2 projects in the past and he was a pain in the cock back then. He's been a pain in the cock in other wikis. [08:01:32] @tf2cutcontent Watch your language. [08:01:44] Oh yeah I keep forgetting to watch my language lol. Thank you Dyno. [08:03:34] On the first project, Custom TF2 Weapons, he had beef with a guy named Loreknight. When I left cTF2w and hopped over to Creators.TF, Naleksuh wanted to join too and be a Discord mod (always going for positions of power). Then he found out we had hired Loreknight as a discord mod and he threw a hissy fit over that and stormed out of the Creators discord when he saw Lore. [08:04:04] I guess at this point we gotta move on sunce the voting has passed, and see what's going to happen w/ MH [08:04:37] Indeed, so I'll 🤐 about him now 👌 [08:10:54] 🤞 fingers crossed that MH can come out of this in a good state and continue on normal operation for years to come [08:14:45] I wouldn't want it to be gone, mostly because wiki migration gonna be a big hassle one way or another, but it hurts to see all the good and experienced folks to leave [08:16:42] I just donated $20GBP ($35CAD) ❤️ [08:17:19] Bloody exchange rates >.o [08:19:20] Thank you very much Donated ❤ [08:21:13] @Discord Moderators @Discord Administrators (sorry ping) Can you introduce the 'donor' role to the user? [08:21:48] That role is only given for Ko-Fi donations now. [08:21:53] IIRC [08:22:25] Because it is automated for that... [08:22:45] Withdrawal from PayPal? I don't think it matters where the donation comes from. [08:23:23] Legacy Donors are those who donated before Ko-Fi, now it is only given to Ko-Fi donations [08:23:53] That’s a bit… restrictive [08:24:02] Hm, okey thank you very much information [08:24:34] I don't know why it was done, but I think because Ko-Fi automates the role, and if it was done manually it might just be removed again I guess? [08:25:37] Well... I should get to sleep and leave this hectic and eventful day behind... [08:25:57] One secarooniedoonie [08:26:22] Bad gateway woot [08:26:30] I will not give the name of the user, I think you are a little tired. good night to you [08:26:45] huh? [08:26:54] Cosmic is sleeping, I woke up 😄 I wish I had slept anyway [08:26:59] Was gonna donate through Kofi as well but the site is hanging on load [08:27:16] I'm talking about the discussion in RfC. [08:27:26] He who shall not be named anymore [08:27:45] I opened that RfC, I know the user, I don't know what you mean? [08:27:51] Anyone that still has access, I think mw* needs a bit help [08:28:40] take some proper rest man, sleep deprivation sucks [08:28:46] I'm talking about Naleksuh's global ban. I think you're tired of it. I think .d for a coffee [08:29:12] That is the least of what happened today. [08:29:28] The only good thing to come out of today. [08:29:41] is something going on with Miraheze? [08:29:51] seems like there's some v anxious people [08:29:59] Site was hanging on load for a minute there but it seems to be fixed [08:30:17] Thats a very long story [08:30:27] Miraheze is still running, the funding is still there too, I wouldn't worry much about wikis [08:30:38] Ha, okey. Better drink coffee or eat ginger, your headache will go away. Still, you know, sleeping is an easy thing 😄 [08:30:46] You can read through the thousands of messages today in this channel to get the full story. [08:30:57] let him go already Turkey lol [08:31:16] Lol yeah I have been trying to get to sleep for a while now... [08:31:27] Nah if I’m up that means UO can’t sleep either 🤣 [08:31:37] Imma get the frying pans out lol [08:31:45] lol [08:31:57] Allah, what is my sin.... lol [08:32:24] I wonder if Münür Önkan has uploaded a new video... [08:32:41] Okay I really am going DnD and to sleep now... if I can after the day we have had here... [08:33:01] if it's getting about not Miraheze stuff, better to move to #offtopic [08:33:02] Münür Orkan turkish youtuber? [08:33:24] Yes, he's a Turkish barber who does ASMR videos of his traditional Turkish barber haircuts and massage services and such [08:33:42] I love his videos and want to visit Turkiye just for that service because we have nothing like it here in Canada [08:34:24] Haaa, Here, barbering is a profession/tradition. Here, long hair is against our culture. [08:35:06] I've seen a few clients in videos with long hair [08:35:39] Come if you come, but I would like to say that this place is also expensive. But don't leave here without drinking sweet tea 😄 [08:35:53] my problem with login has been solved. I hope you'll find a way, guys. this project is too useful and important to let it fade away :3 [08:36:51] exactly [08:38:01] do data dumps also download images? [08:38:23] has to be requested separately [08:38:36] To Stewards now [08:38:46] Whoops, I should be asleep lol [08:39:23] from DataDump page you can generate xml and managewiki dumps, but images do stewards, the link to it appear on the same page [08:40:29] so how do i request images from stewards? [08:42:39] i'm a little tech illiterate at times, admittedly lol [08:42:42] whoops [08:42:57] I can't find link <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> [08:43:15] <:PensiveBreadCowboy:1000310340585783317> [08:43:19] [[SN]] [08:43:19] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [08:43:20] [08:43:25] I guess? [08:43:30] ah [08:43:39] I thought from special page [08:43:42] sorry [08:44:19] so i guess i'd put the request under misc? [08:50:25] aight, request made! [08:50:58] I guess? This has only been Stewards' jurisdiction for a day, so has no precedence [08:51:22] mhm mhm [10:51:42] One comment... Not opposing to the gban, but even if there is unanimous support or requested by the user in question, I don't think global ban requests unless clearly disruptive should be closed early in case of late coming opposition... [10:54:46] @LuciferianThomas treat it like a guilty plea in court [10:55:00] You don't go to trial if you've pled guilty in most cases [11:08:31] I have figured out what has happened so far. Frankly, I am sad... [12:20:54] I need help with 2FA [12:22:03] Recently, I enabled WebAuthn with my phone having the security key, but when I try to log in to my account on my computer, Windows Security asks me to insert a USB key even though I don't have one [12:22:20] I've tried using Phone Link on Windows, but it didn't work [12:34:23] that's normal behavior [12:34:50] mediawiki doesn't distinguish between your different devices [12:35:40] as you enabled WebAuthn on your phone, it will always enforce it for your account, regardless of whether or not you can complete the second factor [12:37:03] What security key are you using? I use https://www.yubico.com/es/product/security-key-series/security-key-nfc-by-yubico-black/, which has both NFC for your phone and an USB port for everything else, perhaps that one could work better for you [12:37:48] I set it up with my phone as the security key [12:38:08] so it isn't a physical key? [12:38:19] No, and I just accidentally logged out of my phone, so now I have no access to my account because of goddamn 2FA [12:38:57] you have a key that only works on your phone? [12:39:18] I don't really know what you have going on, but as a last resort you can beg SRE to disable 2FA for you [12:39:26] It doesn't work, not even on my phone, that's the main problem [12:40:39] so your only key is broken? [12:40:49] you're sold, sorry [12:41:16] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Reset_lost_credentials is all you have left [12:41:17] oof [12:46:43] I think I'll just ping SRE to reset my 2FA [12:47:18] @Site Reliability Engineers WebAuthn on my account is broken, can it be disabled so I can log in? [12:49:07] It was closed early by request after the person emailed staff I guess? [12:49:44] It was requested to be closed early by the user that the gban is subject to, so close is valid [12:49:56] "kind user" I'm going to politely disagree with this assessment, as someone who has worked closely with the individual in question in the Team Fortress 2 community and has known what kind of person they actually are since long before MH was a think. [12:50:20] But let's look to the future instead of dwelling on this, yes? [12:54:48] Why do I even need a USB key for WebAuthn!? WHY CAN'T I USE MY FUCKING PHONE!? [12:55:20] actually, you can! not really, but you technically could [12:55:40] Is there really no phone au-oop Orange Star coming through with the goods [12:56:35] If you're willing to code your own WebAuthn implementation that uses your phone's secure processors as the authenticator, you technically could [12:56:48] Next time I enable 2FA (if there is a next time), I'm going with TOTP [12:59:16] All of this because I wanted to be a GS... [13:01:49] not all hope is lost just yet, if you manage to sufficiently prove to an SRE member that you're indeed Tali and not someone who hacked their discord account you may be able to get 2FA disabled. [13:02:40] unfortunately, I don't know how you would that, and SRE will always be very skeptical of any requests of this nature because social engineering is a very real attack [13:03:32] My personal email is tali64squared@outlook.com, so if SRE sees an email from that address, it's me [13:07:30] What's your social sec-nah im just kidding [13:09:52] [1/2] Sorry, When I called them "experienced and kind user" I was not referring to Nalekush, but to Universatheir retirement citing them as one of the reasonsl Omega and Agent Isai who announced . [13:09:52] [2/2] I was out of town when the global ban request for Naleksuh was made, so I was unable to vote, but if I had seen the meta at the time, I certainly would have supported the request. [13:10:15] Ohhhhh [13:10:23] Apologies then 😅 [13:14:05] Just sent an email to SRE to disable 2FA on my account, hopefully I can get it back [13:16:08] I'm sorry for not being clear enough.... [13:16:34] TOTP is good enough for most people. I use Authy to have the tokens synced to all my devices. Recently, Google Authenticator got the feature to sync as well. [13:17:07] Noooo it's ok, you're fine ❤️ [13:17:13] I'm paranoid about losing the final backup for a security measure, so to have my only login access be tied to a phone that might go missing terrifies me. [13:17:37] you are right to be paranoid in that aspect [13:17:52] it's one of those things you don't care until suddenly you're locked out of everything [13:18:13] that's the thing with almost all forms of 2FA, it increases the chance of being locked out [13:18:25] I have a KeePass database file saved on a USB thumb drive that I keep in a desk drawer as a backup [13:18:48] And Authy on my phone for 2FA, but I suppose I can't easily backup Authy to a thumb drive....or can I?... [13:19:27] doesn't look like it [13:20:27] Authy's selling point is cloud backup, so local backup probably isn't a priority for them. [13:20:48] but for TOTP you tipically have recovery codes, which you could store on a thumb drive locally [13:21:04] But I want a cloud backup, and a local backup of the cloud backup, and then another local backup of the local backup of the cloud backup, and so forth 😛 [13:21:56] best backup solution is to just post all the TOTP secrets and backup codes to a public pastebin and writing down the URL on a piece of paper, you'll never be locked out that way /sarcasm [13:21:58] My workplace requires me to use Duo Mobile push notifications for 2FA. No backup on that. [13:22:24] If my phone goes kaput I have to go running down to the IT desk begging on my knees to reset my access. [13:23:32] backups of these things aren't that important in enterprise environments tbh, you can easily identify yourself via physical presence. They would mostly just be another attack vector [13:27:24] Interesting - I can actually sign in to my account on my phone if I use Chrome [13:27:58] smh my head not using the best browser ever netscape firefox [13:28:12] firefox gang where? [13:28:23] 🖐️ [13:29:15] 🙋 [13:29:46] firefox aye [13:30:00] _safari all the way on mobile, though_ [13:43:13] Finally got back into my account, this was a close call [13:44:06] <:Partyheze:999887629266993232> [13:44:22] Awww sweet, thanks, I have the donor role now ❤️ [13:44:41] Just getting caught up on this, glad you were able to solve it, Tali. [13:45:19] Wasn't relishing having to work the wiki queue w/ today's IRL workload [13:46:37] Switched to TOTP, definitely an easier 2FA method [13:48:08] I'm so sorry that this happened to everyone involved. [13:48:24] Don't worry about it, I have my account back [14:01:24] Tali, I think they were referring to the chaos that took up most of the prior day's chat. 😅 [14:01:48] But I'm also glad you got your account back [14:04:55] [1/2] re @RhinosF1 (https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1115957016263933982) and @zppix (https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1115985948749082634) I mean true but pleading guilty does not necessitate guiltiness. Didn't say the close is invalid, but people on the internet tends to be spiteful. Was just saying that it [14:04:56] [2/2] could be done by leaving a note, and at least holding for a few days before confirmation. [14:07:36] Naleksuh themself asked for it to be closed as it was a snowball [14:07:44] 20 vs 0 is very unlikely to change [14:07:54] If it were 10 vs 4 then I'd agree entirely [14:14:20] So I take it now that they've gotten their wiki exported and have been gbanned, they are also banned from the IRC? I know they can appeal in 3 months but in all likelihood I don't think even if they did the vote would go good [14:17:54] Mostly just curious as to whether or not we are pinging them rn, due to the irc relay and all [14:19:06] You are, yes. [14:19:20] Are they on #miraheze? [14:19:27] As far as I knew, they weren't [14:19:28] They are, at least according to IRCCloud [14:19:33] I mean, I'm not as I'm not saying their name [14:19:35] interesting [14:19:45] For obvious reasons [14:25:47] Agent: you still have +o in IRC, just fyi [14:26:16] Orange_Star: thanks for the heads-up [14:51:12] so i guess it’s done [14:51:22] what? [14:59:31] the Nale CBAN [15:02:44] I guess [15:03:25] i hope Miraheze can continue somehow [15:05:44] I mean, you can't predict the future, but... yk. Not assuming that this is the end just yet, but not exactly all that positive on there being a future at all [15:06:06] I do not seriously expect us to make it past the end of the year [15:06:14] @tf2cutcontent no they are not banned from IRC currently [15:06:33] !ops [15:06:35] if that works [15:06:38] On-wiki only [15:06:40] that should happen [15:06:42] it doesn't [15:06:46] oof [15:06:56] Community bans don’t extend to IRC and discord [15:07:07] It is up to platform moderators [15:07:09] I think there was a bot supposed to watch out for the stalkwords [15:07:11] MacFan4000: It was outlined in Nale's CBAN specifically that it does [15:07:22] or maybe everyone was just manually configuring !sre :) [15:07:31] look at the wording of the proposal for Nale's cban [15:07:47] I mean if they want to pull the trigger I would be willing to turn a blind eye [15:08:13] the wording was that Nale is banned from all Miraheze and Miraheze Spaces [15:08:21] given his abuse of IRC previously [15:08:37] Github, Phabricator are under SRE control but I believe that should be actioned as well [15:09:38] something something we're toothless, something something no stamina to do so [15:10:04] There is also precedent in prior community bans, but again, that's at discretion of those in a position to implement as it isn't official policy. [15:10:24] Kickbanned [15:10:44] I can’t do GH/phab - somebody else will have to handle [15:10:55] Can we remove from the -feed channels, too, please? [15:10:55] (Access level reasons) [15:11:08] That's the discretion of IRC operators, no RfC is required [15:11:34] Procedurally, the community ban can't ban someone from GitHub and Phabricator; it can only advise [15:11:56] That's up to SRE to do, but I would think they would see their conduct there to be generally unhelpful :) [15:16:15] dmehus: i have no authority over -testwiki but you could ban as a consul [15:17:40] all user rights should also be revoked [15:17:51] MacFan4000, sure [15:18:00] so @Stewards wiki creator and then rights across the rest of miraheze community wikis [15:18:03] test, devwiki [15:18:12] All already removed [15:18:21] appreciated [15:18:28] Bans should extend to wherever, and appeals could be sent in via email if the team has one set up for that [15:20:07] dmehus: thanks also for doing testwiki [15:20:40] and also @NotAracham if you have a moment, mind posting an announcement? [15:21:15] if that's posted please share the announcement over here as well [15:21:44] of course [15:21:49] thx [15:22:49] oops, i broke it real quick [15:23:04] I don't believe an announcement is necessary [15:24:08] I can just put it here then [15:24:18] That's canvassing, no? [15:24:25] I've nominated @Tali64 to be a new global sysop here on Miraheze [15:24:32] it's not my request [15:24:35] I’ve kickbanned from every channel I can - I have no flags in the remaining ones [15:24:39] but you posted it [15:25:11] sure but saying it exists isn't canvassing [15:25:52] I was asking for a community advisement similar to https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407504500136607745/1077574383914197002 [15:26:18] if it's canvassing i'm happy to remove but afaik it isn't, I haven't advised anyone to vote in any way [15:26:53] A community advertisement is not canvassing. It's an interesting question whether asking a Discord moderator, publicly, to post an announcement is canvassing, as it could also be seen as dually asking for the moderator's !vote. I'd probably lean 'no', but can see both sides [15:27:02] as you wish then [15:27:22] As long as the message is neutral and available to all, it's not canvassing [15:27:26] You can't be biased [15:27:35] And you can't target individuals [15:27:38] true [15:27:40] dmehus: i'm asking as requests for permissions have been posted in announcements previously for CVT requests [15:27:46] Nor do it in a space few people can see [15:27:53] exactly [15:28:02] by uninvolved parties though [15:28:20] In any case, I do not see a need for a community advertisement at this point. Historically, we have not done such advertisements for all candidates, only candidates seemed by the Steward team to be 'viable' (i.e., those who can demonstrate experience for the role) [15:28:30] Agent, fair point [15:29:18] well that determination seems biased, no? [15:29:33] anyway it's fine with whatever, I'm sure it'll be seen [15:29:56] Maybe, maybe not. There's some discretion. As long as the methodology for assessing candidate viability is applied equitably and fairly, it's not biased [15:30:31] Obviously, we won't promote the RfX of a user who's new, but of a well established user with a fair chance of being successful then of course [15:32:07] We used to have TOOSOON and NOTYET candidates that applied; they did not get advertisements. They have to be able to demonstrate technical and policy knowledge of the given role, and demonstrate some current or past experience for the role. As the nominee has not responded, I do not see evidence demonstrating that. At least that's the way @Reception123 and I viewed community advertisements for RfXes :) [15:40:38] am I gonna get stewart this time yet [15:40:56] No [15:41:42] or maybe yes [15:41:54] am sad now [15:41:58] free stewart for everyone [15:42:34] lmao [15:42:45] I meant to attach that pic of "Tall Morty" to my question about getting stewart [15:42:59] If my request for GS doesn't go well, I'm probably gonna be a sadsop [15:43:13] are you a yoshi [15:43:24] ...can I ride you [15:43:38] I'm not interested [15:43:59] I didn't mean - get your mind out of the gutter 🤣 [15:44:25] Well, things took a turn out here while I was doing a morning garden walk. 😅 [15:44:49] we want stewarts for all [15:45:45] I think stewarts is a dermalogical condition stewards can get after dealing with a persistent type of LTA behaviour 🙃 [15:45:51] I want a yoshi named stewart that I can ride [17:16:09] Uhm... Hello! I'm new around here and I was trying to set up a newly created wiki. We want it to be accessible to anyone, but limit editing privileges to a handful of users. I went to change the settings for the everyone user group, and I think this should do the trick [17:16:44] However, I'm not sure why createaccount is a permission and what the abusefilter is about [17:16:49] Are account unique to each wiki? [17:16:56] they're not [17:17:03] accounts are shared between all wikis [17:17:32] abusefilter is used to apply filters to actions, mostly edits and page creations. [17:18:00] So if I wanted to restrict editing permissions I should probably also get rid of that, right? [17:18:18] If you want to limit editing, go to ManageWiki (see [[ManageWiki]] for how to use it) and remove (edit) from * and user and give it to a group of users you trust to edit [17:18:18] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/ManageWiki [17:18:25] You can't disable AbuseFilter. It's a global extension [17:18:34] Right [17:19:13] re: Orange_Star's message, a best practice is to add the right to the other user groups before removing it from groups like `*` or `user`. Same with `managewiki` [17:19:48] Oh, yeah, good call lol [17:19:52] heh [17:20:27] Alright, so I'll leave this page alone for now and look into managewiki [17:20:36] See if I can get the desired results through that [17:20:38] Thanks! [17:21:11] np sounds good [19:00:09] dmehus: you have a moment [19:00:55] BrandonWM: not right now, just heading out, but probably later tonight :) [19:02:18] Got it, just ping me whenever you have a moment [19:04:03] @CVT might be wise to lock `Naleksuh BOT` [19:04:59] It already happened. Check the global account logs. [19:06:03] oh it doesn't register on CentralAuth [19:06:04] my mistake [19:14:30] CentralAuth shows locked: [19:15:01] I was on testwiki [19:15:55] It should say locked: yes [19:15:56] "Locked: yes" still shows on testwiki CentralAuth also [19:16:07] Not the big entry though [19:18:32] yeah i missed this [19:26:42] Bot, hmm [19:26:54] did this have bot info? [19:27:09] I don't know how to make a wiki bot yet. d [19:51:00] CosmicAlpha: I suggest removing flags from Nale and Freedom in -dev and -feed-dev [19:51:20] Will do later [21:04:16] oh, the stress [21:05:13] Can we not make pointless comments [21:06:07] why not [21:06:11] it’s a conversation starter [21:06:37] MacFan4000: forgot to mention, done [21:08:53] I think it's nice to use both IRC and Discord 🙂 [21:09:10] We'll open it on Telegram soon, it'll be over lol.... [21:09:14] Hmm? [21:10:16] I like that you use both platforms actively, that's what I'm saying 😄 [21:10:46] I think it would be even better if we opened Miraheze in Telegram [21:10:58] Anyway, you have to try it [21:11:19] I did once it just was never used IIRC [21:11:59] Is it used if we do Telegram? [21:12:01] lol [21:13:32] Anyway, ah, ahh, ahh.. 🥱 I am tired. Good night. I wonder if it would be better if there was a day other than a normal day in Turkey--- oh, oh. Whatever good night. [21:18:21] I tried Telegram and hated it lol [21:19:22] @CosmicAlpha you around? [21:19:44] Kind of [21:20:29] on discord? [22:56:34] Glad to hear some folks who had resigned initially are gonna stay for a while longer [23:00:08] I made some tools for MediaWiki and relesed my templates/old theme under GNU Public [23:13:58] Why are page banners not working on my self hosted wiki? [23:14:46] It works here: https://taerel.com/wiki/index.php/Test but not here: https://taerel.com/wiki/index.php/Taerel:Aagr%27ozla_Lush_River [23:18:37] Maybe the banner isn't set up to appear in certain namespaces? [23:19:17] I've not seen this banner system on a wiki before so I honestly don't know how it works but the namespace'd article not working makes me think it's got something to do with that [23:20:27] Hmmm, how could I fix? [23:23:18] Changed $wgWPBNamespaces = [ NS_MAIN ]; to $wgWPBNamespaces = [ NS_MAIN, NS_TAEREL]; [23:23:25] No Fix [23:23:33] There was no change [23:29:29] What is IRC? [23:30:19] Ah, I learned today you can use in $wgWPBNamespace a NameSpace number (Eg on my wiki NS_TAEREL is 3000 ) [23:34:32] I have also learned it hates ' [23:59:51] internet relay chat