[00:00:29] What do you mean? [00:00:46] is the end near, or does humanity find a way? [00:01:07] @orduin I know you have been very busy [00:02:55] how's the volunteer recruitment going? [00:05:26] In case @mywikis doesn't respond or you want faster answer to questions related to MyWikis's services, you can reach out to me as well. šŸ™‚ [00:07:23] I saw my 2 requested Wiki have been deleted Thank you so much [00:17:30] iNext Wiki and Kayla & Rachel Wiki has officially migrated to WikiTide šŸ„³ [00:24:41] miraheze is kinda falling apart [00:25:02] kinda, yeah [00:27:02] What on earth is going on? [00:27:28] Yes [00:28:12] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407504500136607745/1119054471280988171 [00:28:17] šŸ‘€ [00:28:23] Why was I not informed of this issue as soon as it occurred?! [00:29:35] if we somehow survive, we will be greatly weakened [00:30:41] just dumped the backrooms wiki, i should be able to download all the images separately [00:31:12] i'm gonna hang on for as long as possible though [00:32:07] I mean a discord announcement was done, twitter I believe as well, and its been mentioned on meta a bit [00:33:26] Well it can't be helped... I'm sure everybody is doing what they can [00:38:10] just like? [00:42:28] Friends, the situation is desperate [00:43:13] We'll pull through [00:44:37] Can somebody explain what the issue actually is? I have no knowledge of Miraheze's history over the past year [00:45:19] i mean i created a datadump [00:45:30] Well, the Team is overstressed... [00:45:43] Oh, so it's a psychological problem [00:45:43] what exactly would that be? [00:46:13] [1/2] Yes, kind of. [00:46:13] [2/2] Are you looking for some kind of wiki hosting? [00:46:14] it's an archive of every single page on the wiki, see [[mh:backrooms:Special:DataDump]] [00:46:14] https://mh.wikipedia.org/wiki/backrooms:Special:DataDump [00:46:20] [00:47:43] record [00:48:17] No; but I am a constituent of multiple wikis [00:49:57] Oh, alright. Let's just hope the best! [01:00:44] Hey, how do I know if I have an image dump on my wiki? [01:01:48] The image dump will be available in Special:DataDump once complete [01:02:08] [1/2] phabricator, please don't leave though [01:02:09] [2/2] there's still hope [01:03:18] Well, nothing I can do now. The new wiki was already created. https://thedreamlogowiki.wikitide.com/wiki/Main_Page [01:04:03] I am waiting for the image dump to complete so I can pack up and get out of your hairs [01:04:38] I'm sorry, but I can't risk my wiki getting deleted and all the hard work we put into it [01:05:59] We just gotta accept the fact that Miraheze is unstable, and ready to fade on. [01:06:58] That's a very poetic way of putting it [01:07:30] Why thank you [01:10:02] Well, I just closed my wiki. Waiting for image dump to complete [01:10:25] Well as a crat for a wiki covering a NSFW/fetish game, I really struggle to find any even half-decent options we can move to, if MH does end up shutting down, so yeah I really hope it doesn't get to that [01:11:04] I don't know if you are supposed to wait until image dump completes and then close it, or close it and then start image dump [01:11:36] Which one am I supposed to do? [01:12:11] Hey who enabled slowmode again? I thought we didn't need it. [01:13:30] What wiki would that be?? [01:13:33] If you have a phab task open I would wait to close it until you've downloaded the image dump [01:14:18] I requested it at steward's noticeboard and not phabricator [01:15:00] Then you don't need to 'close' the request at the end [01:15:27] So I just keep it closed for now and wait until image dump is complete? [01:15:48] I should ask to clarify at this point, keep what closed [01:16:05] The wiki. [01:16:07] Putting it in spoiler so people don't click it accidentally, if they don't want to enter a NSFW wiki: ||https://gianna.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page|| [01:16:32] Oh you want the wiki to remain open until the image dump completes [01:16:45] Oh ok [01:17:19] Should I make it private so nobody uploads anything? [01:17:46] Only you can know if that's the best route for the moment for your wiki [01:17:56] Alright [01:22:43] Can somebody estimate the probability of Miraheze shutting down? I assumed it was on the way out, but I keep hearing people say things like "if Miraheze shuts down", "I hope nothing happens to Miraheze" [01:23:05] 90% chance [01:24:40] I'd say around a 60% chance; there are a lot of people still interested in Miraheze (myself included) that are discussing on the best way to run it going forward, but nothing is definite yet [01:26:00] It it hard to tell really, though the default state per say is that it will shut down, if nothing changes, so probably at least in the quite likely to shut down area, but well as I said very hard for me to find any alternatives I am desperately clinging to any hope of it not shutting down. [01:27:39] Definitely not 90% [01:27:47] I'm getting mixed messages here [01:28:11] I would say 50% [01:28:18] well idk at this point [01:28:22] 50%?! So it could go either way?? [01:28:41] Basically, yeah [01:28:53] [1/8] Subject: Formal Complaint Regarding the Demise of Miraheze Wikifarm [01:28:53] [2/8] Dear Board of Stewards, [01:28:54] [3/8] I write this letter on behalf of the concerned administrators of the Miraheze Wikifarm, who have been deeply affected by the recent events surrounding the ceaseless drama and internal bickering within your board. It is with great disappointment and frustration that we address you today, as the actions and decisions made by the board have ultimately resulted in the demise of a onc [01:28:54] [4/8] e-thriving community of knowledge and collaboration. [01:28:54] [5/8] Firstly, we would like to express our utter dissatisfaction with the lack of professionalism and accountability displayed by the board. It is deeply disheartening to witness those entrusted with the management of a prominent platform engage in petty conflicts and personal disputes, while neglecting the best interests of the community they serve. The constant internal bickering no [01:28:54] [6/8] t only undermines the integrity of the organization but also erodes the trust and confidence of the users who rely on the Miraheze Wikifarm. [01:28:55] [7/8] Furthermore, the detrimental effects of the board's actions have been felt by the entire community, including administrators, contributors, and readers alike. The ceaseless drama and internal conflicts have created an environment of uncertainty, instability, and confusion. Projects have been left unattended, vital resources have been misallocated, and overall progress has come to [01:28:55] [8/8] a grinding halt. The decline in user activity and engagement is a direct consequence of the toxic atmosphere perpetuated by the board's failure to uphold their responsibilities. [01:29:01] At this very second, yes, ask me again around this time tomorrow and I may be able to give a more decent guess [01:29:27] [1/7] In addition to the severe disruption caused, the demise of the Miraheze Wikifarm has resulted in irreversible damage to the accumulated knowledge and contributions of countless individuals. It is deeply distressing to witness the erasure of intellectual efforts and collaborative work that once thrived within the Miraheze community. Such a loss is not only a disservice to the dedi [01:29:27] [2/7] cated individuals who invested their time and expertise but also a blow to the broader pursuit of knowledge and the principles of open collaboration. [01:29:27] [3/7] We, the affected wiki administrators, demand immediate action and accountability from the board. It is imperative that you take swift measures to rectify the situation, mitigate the damage caused, and restore the Miraheze Wikifarm to its former state of functionality and productivity. We implore you to put aside personal differences and prioritize the interests of the community a [01:29:28] [4/7] bove all else. [01:29:28] [5/7] Furthermore, we urge the board to institute robust governance policies and mechanisms to prevent the recurrence of such internal conflicts. It is crucial that the individuals responsible for managing the Miraheze Wikifarm demonstrate the highest levels of professionalism, integrity, and commitment to fostering a healthy collaborative environment. Only through such measures can th [01:29:28] [6/7] e community begin to rebuild and regain the trust that has been shattered by recent events. [01:29:28] [7/7] We expect a prompt and substantive response from the board, outlining the concrete steps that will be taken to address our concerns and salvage the Miraheze Wikifarm. Time is of the essence, and any further delay or inaction will only serve to exacerbate the damage caused and deepen the wounds inflicted upon the Miraheze community. [01:29:31] Board and Stewards are two different groups [01:30:00] [1/4] Please be advised that if our concerns are not adequately addressed and suitable corrective measures are not implemented, we will explore all available avenues to ensure that the voices of the affected administrators are heard, and the responsible parties are held accountable for their actions. [01:30:00] [2/4] We sincerely hope that you will give this matter the serious attention it deserves and work towards restoring the Miraheze Wikifarm to its former glory. The success and viability of this platform depend on your commitment to transparency, professionalism, and the well-being of the community it serves. [01:30:01] [3/4] Yours sincerely, [01:30:01] [4/4] NimoStar [01:30:09] Making it clear that uo wasnā€™t part of advertising. I should have been clearer here because he gets wrongly linked to it. [01:31:10] The entire Board has pledged to resign so I guess you don't have to look for any corrective measures for them though either way, what would one even seek? ToU exempts them from liability [01:31:48] I got no idea at this point. I mean, if Miraheze does survive, I'll return to it. But for now, its a salute to it [01:31:53] Your concern are heard, but frankly there is no course of action, there is an effort to stop the shutdown for Miraheze, but legally your course of actions are limited. Thanks. [01:32:02] My God they've unionized [01:32:23] Yeah, a letter isn't really going to help ensure anything, everyone's pissed off... [01:32:47] No it wonā€™t, infact its more disruptive than anything [01:34:23] Firstly, props to drafting the letter. The first part is a valid and vocal expression of grievance. The last part looks like a vague threat, though. [01:34:28] Did you AI that statement [01:34:37] lol [01:35:15] I'm sorry, but as an AI language model, I do not have the ability to draft complaint letters to online wiki hosting services. [01:35:52] But ask it to give an example of one, and it probably gonna draft one xD [01:37:36] Humans arenā€™t machines [01:39:28] Sometimes I can get in doubt about that tbh [01:40:10] So was the background some sort of psychodrama? I refuse to believe this whole thing is simply down to personalities [01:43:44] Anything [01:45:52] Thats good news? [01:47:42] 60% is less than 100% which is what i thought it was [01:51:34] How does that poem about death go? [01:52:06] Wait a minute let me look up "poems about death" [01:52:39] "The art of losing isnā€™t hard to master; so many things seem filled with the intent to be lost that their loss is no disaster" [01:53:01] There are only three things that are certain in life: death, taxes, and Miraheze conflict every other Tuesday [01:53:38] Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight, And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way... [01:54:10] "Sooner or later something goes amiss; The singing birds pack up and fly away" [01:58:41] [1/7] Like I said early today, I ask that the community please remain hopeful, we are working on a plan to potential save Miraheze, however panicking and exaggerating sudden doom does not help anyone. [01:58:42] [2/7] The facts: [01:58:42] [3/7] Labster, myself, and void have been in contact and have been having productive conversation, nothing has come of it yet, but it is looking pretty hopeful [01:58:42] [4/7] At this very millisecond of time, Miraheze is in no danger of sudden shutdown, we still have atleast a few months, regardless of what happens. [01:58:42] [5/7] Remaining hopeful and holding onto what trust remains will be crucial these next few weeks. [01:58:43] [6/7] I will keep everyone updated when I do find out more, but at this very moment I would say the chances of Miraheze shutting down is only 50%, and I do believe that could even go lower in the near future. [01:58:43] [7/7] I know I sound like a stubborn hold-out, but I am asking as a long time Miraheze member that we please do not give up now. [02:02:05] Maybe write this onwiki? [02:04:03] I rather not drag it on on-wiki as at this point theres no craziness going on-wiki and I do not wish to start any [02:04:36] Especially when I have nothing concrete yet [02:04:48] There isn't any craziness, but your only off-Discord communication is still "we're screwed, you're screwed, save your wiki while you can" [02:05:08] Could go under the CN thread, but I agree a bit on waiting for a concrete plan. [02:05:14] however that is the truth [02:05:24] I don't think this is a case where public communication about these efforts would hurt. [02:05:35] Because officially that is the recommendation [02:07:36] Actually, poor public communication does hurt the efforts as its only creates more confusion [02:07:56] There is no official efforts [02:08:16] Poor public and private communication is what got us in the first place. [02:08:33] [1/2] The Board could start by drafting a letter on Meta where they retract the shutdown dates and announce a volunteer drive instead. [02:08:34] [2/2] Otherwise this is a temper tantrum, absolutely no attempt to save Miraheze was made [02:08:46] The shutdown dates are still relevant [02:09:19] The attempt to save Miraheze is on-going as we speak. [02:09:21] They're still relevant if any plan falls through [02:09:23] I just don't want to see the situation where Miraheze would be salvaged but by that time, everyone but people that don't have other choice would be avoiding it like fire. [02:09:58] I unfortunately fear that will be the case, that our reputation is in the mud and irreparably broken forever [02:10:00] Once we get more of a concrete plan, Iā€™m all for going all out on putting it everywhere [02:10:32] But for now I think just a simple off wiki message just giving an update is the best course of action [02:10:37] This is a potential concern for the future yes [02:11:49] I know I personally wouldn't want to host any wikis on a host that's announced they're about to break into a million pieces [02:11:59] Just change the name from "Miraheze" [02:12:22] I suggested a rebrand, others didn't think it's necessary [02:12:45] Do you think something like "Ezeharim" would sound too alarming? [02:12:56] We havent even got that far yea [02:13:01] sounds like a name I'd find in the Bible lol [02:13:36] In fact this reminds me, I've been planning for a long time to ask how Miraheze is pronounced, and this might be one of my last opportunities [02:14:04] Don't rebrand. That's like Facebook rebranding to Meta. It fools nobody. [02:14:07] Mirah-ease is how Iā€™ve always pronounced it [02:14:11] how can i get all my data from miraheze so i can import it to fandom [02:14:16] Mira-heez [02:14:17] I've always thought it was "Mirror hazy" [02:14:42] That was honestly my thought [02:14:50] Yeah, that's an issue too. I don't think we're escaping this reputation any time soon so I'm not holding my breath on it. Fundraising will be the most difficult thing ever this year. [02:14:53] You probably find about as many pronounciation as there are users on the farm šŸ˜› [02:15:03] Sell it to Elon Musk [02:15:17] We had an official pronunciation somewhere [02:15:25] Official pronunciation is whatever I decree it is \:P [02:15:25] My french butt parsed it as "meer-ah hay-zey", to back Gummiel's assertion [02:15:41] First biblically accurate wiki host [02:15:43] Ah! I knew I wasn't alone [02:16:01] ^^^ [02:16:02] As for the official pronunciation, there isn't one really. Many people pronounce Miraheze differently though general consensus as of 2022 seems to be "meer-ah-heez". [02:16:10] heh yeah, I was about to say, a lot of people pronounce it like that but officially, most people pronounce it as above ^ [02:16:16] What's the origin of the name? [02:16:46] Two stars, Mira, and Heze, derived from the names of two Wikimedia Foundation servers where our co-founder worked at at the time [02:17:03] Oh so it was a merger? [02:17:18] yeah, Mira + Heze = Miraheze [02:17:35] Perhaps this current crisis could be solved in the same way, like the LibDems and the SDP [02:18:13] Let's rename to Eqiadcodfw next [02:18:21] That's the spirit! [02:18:44] Especially if we will reincorporate in the US [02:18:58] Might I suggest "Marryheze", or perhaps "Mirabore" as alternative names [02:19:04] See i can pronounce that, Equad cod ef [02:19:06] can someone answer this question [02:19:21] There's an i there, you fool! [02:19:34] I is silentā€¦ [02:19:38] You can use Special:DataDump to get an XML export of all the page content. And [[SN]] to request an image dump [02:19:38] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [02:19:43] [02:19:49] thank you [02:20:12] https://wikitech.wikimedia.org/wiki/Eqiad_data_center "Eqiad (pronounced eh-key-add" šŸ¤£ [02:20:27] even though there are efforts to recruit more volunteers, trust in miraheze staff has basically eroded [02:20:32] I refuse that pronouncation [02:21:04] Ive always said equad, i aint changing it for no one [02:21:14] The solution to this is for the staff to change their names and announce the implementation of a new staff [02:21:22] Splinter groups have already started [02:21:26] it will take a while to restore trust + people think that miraheze has grown unstable [02:21:40] We won't be shaking that off any time soon [02:21:48] So the the plan behind saving Miraheze would result in new Leadership [02:22:32] I like the way you capitalize Leadership [02:23:05] What credentials are needed [02:23:30] That hasnt been decided yet, like I said no concrete plans have been made [02:24:04] Nothing instills confidence but we'll see [02:24:15] [1/2] I'd make a terrible leader. [02:24:16] [2/2] But yeah, best not throw the engine before the rest of the car. (Or whatever analogy would work best.) [02:25:30] Thankfully, the damaged relations are mostly with wiki owners and not wiki readers. So, some hope in case the effort to rebuild things succeeds. [02:26:01] Apart from wikis like AVID that have already locked themselves out and started migrating. [02:27:12] What wiki gets the most views on Miraheze? Is it the same as the wiki that has the most pages? [02:27:26] ATT gets tons of views, not sure of exact amount though [02:27:46] [1/2] ATT? [02:27:46] [2/2] All the Tropes? šŸ¤” [02:27:53] Yep [02:32:32] All the Tropes is on Miraheze?! [02:33:18] Yep. [02:44:26] someone fill me in? [02:45:10] looks like iā€™ve missed something [02:54:30] Jlooks like John was right [02:54:42] currently, is wikitide a long-term solution for all miraheze wikis that are moving? [02:55:03] and my personal pronunciation /ĖˆmiĶœÉ™ĖžÉ™ĖŒhiz/ is the only correct one [02:55:46] I honeslty never been able to read those kind of pronunciation letters, so no idea what your pronunciation is still xD [02:55:48] if you're considering a platform that just started to be long-term, yikes [02:55:54] unfortunate [02:56:19] damn, slowmode [02:56:26] Wikitide is one of the solutions, but you should probably be skeptical of it because it is basically an off-shoot of this drama. [02:56:50] It's a very new farm, and necessarily is a bit narrow on what it's accepting due to resource constraints. Unfortunately, not all MH would be able to find a home there even if we had unlimited resources. [02:56:50] lower slowmode? [02:56:56] Already done, down to 10s [02:57:05] thanks [02:57:49] was considering going on irc to bypass that 30 second cooldown tbh [02:58:19] That's a funny joke to play on moderators. šŸ™‚ [02:59:04] personally I love how MH hasn't provided recommendations to alterinative and just said "figure it out" [02:59:40] There are options in #Alternative Wiki Hosting Services but it is highly dependant on the specific wiki what is the best option though [02:59:55] Well, Miraheze never had a lot of great competition in the area of free wiki hosting. [03:00:07] There's really no comparable alternatives. The alternatives are Fandom (ads), ShoutWiki (outdated), WikiTide (some have a grudge against it), or paid hosting [03:00:08] ah yes, because we all know every alternative [03:00:19] Miraheze is absolutely a one of a kind [03:00:32] theres really no easy alternative [03:00:34] The support thread linked by gummiel is the best collection for now [03:00:48] It's mainly devolved into a MyWikis advertising thread lol [03:02:12] The first post in the thread is likely the best summary of the information from my last look [03:02:12] Not much of an advertising when they mention that it is 10-15 USD per month and if you miss a payment, the wiki will instantly go offline. [03:02:27] Maybe consider pinning the starting post in that thread though as it seems have been updated with several alternatives in it, but kinda hard to find as is, since there are not "jump to start" button or anything? [03:03:12] Bad that Discord forum threads do not do that by default. [03:03:31] It could be pinned [03:03:42] Done [03:03:59] I think they meant pinning the start post in that forum thread. [03:04:05] ^ [03:04:15] Ah, gotcha. [03:04:24] [1/2] Community-sourced list of alternative wiki hosts: [03:04:24] [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1119154807362556024/1119154807362556024 [03:04:30] Yeah what Lev said, was indeed what I meant xD [03:04:33] No. Like, in the thread itself. [03:04:45] Re-done [03:04:57] Ngl that should be in announcements [03:05:16] Announcements need to be reorganized [03:05:28] The initial approach wasn't optimal [03:05:56] If a post goes in announcements it needs to be probably a semi-length post summarizing the current status and answering the FAQs from this channel and #tech-community related to the situation [03:06:19] Exactly this. I don't particularly feel like stirring up any more chaos than has already been stirred. [03:07:07] <光ēŗŖ#9056> as a student in university 9$/mo or more is quite expensive for me šŸ˜­ [03:07:10] I'd draft a post but I'm unsure (a) I have enough credibility that the write-up could be consider impartially informative and (b) its also unclear if someone not in a volunteer position at this moment should even draft such a message [03:07:51] <光ēŗŖ#9056> maybe wikitide for this year and I'll start receive donating from co-writers [03:08:02] Unless it will be absolutely decided not to continue with Miraheze, this is just premature. Like most of the communication done by Miraheze up to this point tbh. [03:20:02] Just checking on the news, is Miraheze going down for good? [03:20:27] If so, when does it affect our wikis? Because I need to import my wiki then [03:20:41] afaik theyā€™re working on a plan, and if enough people help out, I believe it can be saved right? [03:20:48] It has until October at the very earliest [03:21:02] Some people are trying to salvage the project but that endeavor is very 50/50 at the moment and subject to change [03:21:26] In that case, do any of you know how to import over 500 pages to another wiki? [03:21:44] I believe it can be saved, personally, but Iā€™m not part of the team behind it all, so I donā€™t know. Agent says 50/50 so id stick with that for now. Not the best, but thereā€™s hope ^^ [03:21:49] Because I ain't copypasting over 700 pages [03:21:54] gay pigeon [03:22:01] gay pigeon indeed :> [03:22:14] Special:DataDump on your wiki [03:22:38] šŸ³ļøā€šŸŒˆ šŸ¦¤ [03:22:45] How does that work? [03:22:49] wish there was a pigeon emoji Fr [03:22:52] wait thats a dodo bird [03:23:19] I believe your request is queued, and then when itā€™s process you can download a zip containing XML files, which can then be imported to a new host [03:23:22] [1/2] The special:datadump page generates an XML file, which is a representation of the text content of your wiki's page. [03:23:22] [2/2] You can take that file and import it at a new host to re-create all the pages. [03:23:42] How many pages can it handle? [03:23:49] Thousands [03:23:55] I got 710 pages [03:23:58] all of them I believe, but the file size increases obviously [03:24:00] Even a very big wiki is only a few kilobites in text [03:24:11] Images are the bigger problem [03:24:16] Images are big issues [03:24:17] DataDump can generate dumps under 5GBs [03:24:30] Because I got roughly 500 images [03:26:02] Piece of cake for DataDump then [03:26:22] [1/2] Image dumps can be requested separately via either the Stewards' Noticeboard or via filing a ticket on [[Phabricator]]. [03:26:22] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Phabricator [03:26:23] [2/2] Be aware that our SRE team (which has very few folks left) has quite a lot of work on their plate at the moment, so generating an image dump may take a bit for them to get to but they will get to it. [03:26:23] [03:26:58] Full guide with all these details will be worked on and (hopefully) made publicly available this weekend, for those who'd like this info all in one place. [03:32:35] suggested to macfan4000 earlier, perhaps set up a queue for these requests and do them in batches to save on storage space regardless of swift's limits. give folks timelimit to download or send to internet archive [03:33:46] [1/3] > There are thousands, but some examples of popular wikis hosted on Miraheze: [03:33:47] [2/3] > - NATO Cyberlaw Toolkit - https://cyberlaw.ccdcoe.org/wiki/Main_Page (Yes, an intergovernmental military alliance with infinite money is using a free wiki host) [03:33:47] [3/3] oh god [03:33:47] I will say that I've been able to process a lot of requests today, and will be able to do even more tomorrow [03:34:13] lol yeah, and yet they've never contributed a single dollar \:( [03:34:37] Have you tried asking them? šŸ˜„ [03:35:07] Why pay for something when good free alternatives exist! [03:35:36] nato should donate like 10k or something šŸ˜­ [03:35:47] at least 10 bucks [03:36:02] give Miraheze a 16/hr salary [03:36:14] 9-5 [03:36:50] Oh yes [03:37:13] they totally should; they'd likely easily be able to cover the entire operating cost as a non-issue line item for them [03:37:22] I havent heard any helicopters hovering so we havent mad nato mad yet šŸ¤£ [03:37:32] Dolly Parton approves of this hourly schedule, provided one does not have to work for the man [03:39:39] https://tenor.com/view/working-9to5-dolly-parton-work-gif-19089206 [03:44:32] As someone from Tennessee, I promote you to Senator NotAracham from TN [03:46:42] I live in Tennessee [03:48:14] Maybe don't give your exact location to strangers on the internet? [03:48:45] Deleted it and I wonā€™t tell you my address [03:55:57] Is there a guide to how to data dump pages and images to another wiki? [03:58:36] Not yet @notaracham is aiming to write one this weekend [03:59:05] Not yet, I'll be putting out a guide this weekend hopefully [03:59:11] Ah, yep. What LichMaster said [03:59:25] The question is... which currently-sitting one gets the boot? [04:01:18] both are pretty bad from tennessee currently so take your pick [04:01:56] Yeah. I was gonna say that Kentucky would be an easier pick but uh... [04:02:34] Anyway, going very off-topic now [04:02:38] oof, having grown up in Kentucky I agree with that statement so much [04:09:39] What about the database dumps? Those will still be retrievable, right? [04:12:36] <.labster#0000, replying to mariojack3#0000> I'm really sorry for how all of this happened. I'm hoping that we can save this service, so you won't need to go anywhere. There aren't really any good equivalent options to Miraheze, though, though WikiTide may be the closest available for now. [04:13:54] <.labster#0000> I'm hoping to provide a lot more clarity to people tomorrow as to what is going to happen and how fast it will happen. [04:14:21] Yeah, ManageWiki is a pain to get working correctly elsewhere...which is a decent part of it. [04:14:49] <.labster#0000> btw Hypercane, I'm not sure I ever said it, but as a meteorologist I love your nick. [04:14:51] its a miracle it even works on Miraheze [04:15:00] ^ [04:15:03] Thank you lol [04:15:24] I believe you or someone else did once, when I donated that other time. [04:22:32] [1/2] morning [04:22:32] [2/2] what's new? [04:22:40] Not a whole lot [04:23:01] So no real updates? [04:26:07] [1/3] Well, at least for now, we're in a holding pattern while discussions continue instead of facing immediate collapse. [04:26:07] [2/3] I'd consider that a step improved, but I'm just as eager as all in this chat to have greater certainty. [04:26:07] [3/3] Hopefully we'll be getting more information soon, but anything this major isn't resolved in a single day, for good reason. [04:27:18] Labster has posted a link with a statement of intent in #tech-community , I recommend checking that out for a bit more context. [04:27:22] So right now theres no updates because its the middle of the night [04:27:31] ^Also this [04:27:32] fair enough [04:27:34] We dont have everyone we need online to continue discussions [04:27:36] I will simply say this...I spoke with CosmicAlpha an hour ago. might be a way to reverse the sudden collapse if people are understanding enough...I have effectively told to take a mandatory 2 week break [04:28:03] I'm not gonna push the issue myself, just was curious is all. [04:28:17] Absolutely, thanks for checking in. [04:28:30] I had left and wasn't intending to return until others informed this blew up completely [04:29:15] interesting [04:29:29] To be clear this is going to be a long process, this isnt something that will be resolved quickly [04:29:48] Fair enough as well [04:29:58] things might change in morning is all i will say, once CA has a clear head [04:30:22] I fail to see how that is true [04:30:27] This isn't so much about CA at this juncture, though clear heads are never a bad thing. [04:31:46] you will find out more tomorrow, there's something confidential that Owen and Paladox were unaware of and hopefully _if_ understanding; we can work this out [04:32:07] Regardless it doesnā€™t matter, we are beyond that at this point [04:32:23] I strongly disagree zppix [04:32:39] No sense in vaguecasting further, let's let it be until the relevant players are back tomorrow. [04:33:41] vaguecasting lmao [04:33:54] great word [04:34:25] oh Hi cook [04:42:16] <.labster#0000> As a meteorologist I am legally allowed to vaguecast [04:45:21] I mean, that's like half the job, there. That, and robust probability models [04:47:44] <.labster#0000> Weather models are physical models. Even the ensembles are just slightly different physics, not probability [04:48:04] Fair enough [04:48:48] Labster if you could stop saying its gonna rain, thanks šŸ˜‚ [04:49:01] <.labster#0000> Vaguecasting, however, needs dartboards [04:49:36] Sorry fresh out of dart boards šŸ˜‚ [04:50:12] <.labster#0000, replying to zppix#0000> Do we have any waldorfs? [04:50:39] I got bubblewrap [04:55:32] <.labster#0000> We got spinal cracker, we got mojo filter [04:56:37] <.labster#0000> If youā€™re upset weā€™re going goofy here, we all need to chill after an exhausting 24 hours [04:57:28] <.labster#0000> Keep your spirits up. All is not lost; our problems though numerous are solvable. [04:58:03] _deletes system32 from their iphone_ [04:59:28] Am I correct in assuming that Flow pages are not present in dumps generated by MediaWiki? [05:08:36] Just opened the dump for my wiki, and yes, that's true šŸ˜¦ [05:11:48] having lived in kentucky forever i also agree! [05:37:23] [1/2] Hey, [05:37:23] [2/2] You may ask a SRE if it can run a this for you : https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:StructuredDiscussions#Export_and_Import [06:26:51] <:flag_sch:975475430612164608> [06:40:57] What is this flag? [07:18:05] <:flag_ks:973230449738514462> [07:27:57] How do I find WikiTube/WikiForge? Tried Google them but they didn't cone up? [07:28:11] WikiTide [07:28:30] And meta.wikitide.org / meta.wikiforge.org [07:29:57] Not quite. WikiTide is .com, WikiForge is .net [07:30:43] Oh it wasn't more complicated šŸ™ˆ [07:30:55] Thanks haha [08:43:53] I requested a importdump before the recent news [08:44:06] will it ever get approved? [08:49:39] Not anytime soon sadly @buni_egoist [08:50:34] How do I get my wiki dump [08:50:43] Hi. Can I create a data dump specifically for the wiki files? [08:50:57] Picture, videos, audio... [08:51:43] damn okay [09:31:42] wtf me and a friend who owns another mira wiki i help run bought a google domain [09:31:56] and google domain's death was announced JUST TODAY??? [09:32:10] AND IT HAS A SIMILAR TIMELINE TO MIRA!!! [09:34:02] oops by death i mean theyre being bought by squarespace [09:34:18] which is arguably worse [09:43:44] rip miraheze [10:04:43] Iā€™m going to call the period from now until the shutdown the ā€œtwilight eraā€. [10:05:00] we are past the sunset, we are in the twilight now [10:55:10] Aswers no... [10:56:58] @rabbydevs try cloudflare domains. You pay the actual cost. [10:57:10] Please request on [[SN]] [10:57:10] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [10:57:14] [10:57:34] i couldnt buy the domain since my friend is the person with the money, he instantly went google domains even when i was going to say such [10:57:47] šŸ˜µ [10:58:52] Thank you. [11:52:50] on the side of your wiki where it says all the settings it should say Manage/Download this wiki's dump [12:00:45] Fine and all [12:00:58] I know how to do that. What about imaged though? [12:01:58] @antoniokf5 [12:04:21] miraheze is not loading for some rason [12:05:16] Phabricator [12:05:28] Or just download them individually [12:06:08] [1/2] @!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just said Stewards Noticeboard [12:06:08] [2/2] Phab is barely an option now w/ lack of SRE [12:06:24] Damn [12:07:10] It will get processed in time if you make a request [12:07:34] The current stewards have committed to helping ensure folks are able to get their data as part of a wind down [12:07:57] Is there still any hope? [12:19:59] [1/17] I'll try to make pinnable message on dumps [12:20:00] [2/17] check admin menu/sidebar - the last link mentioning dumps is where it is done [12:20:00] [3/17] text (xml) and ManageWiki (json) dumps can be created here w/o involvement of MH people [12:20:00] [4/17] (to refresh status/links I advice clicking on sidebar link again) [12:20:01] [5/17] if there are already some dump links on that page, they has to be deleted to make place for new dumps [12:20:01] [6/17] for image (file) dump go to Stewards' Noticeboard (aka SN) and leave your request in the Miscellaneous section [12:20:01] [7/17] (there's plenty of examples already) [12:20:01] [8/17] because of volunteers shortage it might take some time [12:20:02] [9/17] all dumps can be downloaded from the same special page from admin menu, including image dump [12:20:02] [10/17] all dump requested are created in a general queue, so download links won't appear immediately, especially for image dumps (and especially if there's a lot of files) [12:20:03] [11/17] once the dump is ready, click the link - it starts downloading file w/ special archive format [12:20:03] [12/17] to extract xml/json/files from that archive, install a more advanced archiving program on your computer, for example 7z (free, well known, easy) [12:20:04] [13/17] there's a risk that an error can occur w/ dump creation or download - this has to be addressed anywhere (SN, Phab, here if stewards/SRE are online) [12:20:04] [14/17] dumps, including images, can be also made w/ third party file scrapping means [12:20:05] [15/17] - WikiTeam's Tool script for Python (two versions exist) [12:20:05] [16/17] - FANDOM's DowbloadImages for node.js (only images) [12:20:06] [17/17] they can be helpful if errors are continuous or there's a risk file dump request will hog up queue really bad [12:20:35] [1/2] asking mods to pin this, please ^ [12:20:35] [2/2] open for edits [12:22:39] I believe you did a typo in the fandom tool near the end of that post [12:22:49] fixed [13:02:25] So we loss all our wiki ? [13:02:49] you can dump [13:03:07] What is that ? [13:03:25] [[Special:DataDump]] [13:03:25] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:DataDump [13:03:26] [13:04:13] Okay what i do with the download stuff of my wiki that like i lost it ? [13:04:51] You know something where i can remake a wiki for free like fandom or something else [13:05:51] wikitide [13:06:04] Okay [13:06:57] So i did a dump and now i have download this what do i do [13:07:20] i don't know, i guess you should join the wikitide server [13:07:51] #Alternative Wiki Hosting Services [13:08:17] most popular variant are self hosting, wt or telepedia [13:08:37] Iā€™m gonna stick with miraheze for now in case the issue is resolved [13:08:43] same [13:09:58] I cant find wikitide or wikiforge [13:10:22] I might set up independent hosting of the issue becomes unsolvable [13:10:26] https://meta.wikitide.com/ [13:10:31] they are very new and google hasn't indexed them yet [13:10:33] I donā€™t really like wiki farms honestly [13:10:53] I think this is the most reasonable thing to do, at least on the scale of a ~week or so [13:11:07] Yeah also it a question that i have how do we indexed our wiki ? [13:11:25] same as on Miraheze, I suppose [13:11:39] Idk how do it on Miraheze [13:12:04] understandable, but when you have no means/possibility to self host, there's no other ways šŸ¤· [13:13:50] I believe there was a guide on Miraheze Meta, but in short you gotta make Google Search Console, get verification key from it, insert in wiki via additional setting/SEO, confirm in console [13:14:30] same w/ other search engines like Bing, Yandex, etc [13:14:43] Yandex sucks tho [13:15:06] while Bing indexed my wiki since day one, w/o my involvement, idk how [13:15:49] it happens with google too [13:16:27] but at veeeeeery long time [13:16:43] i don't know what this search engine stuff is about, because for some reason if i give google enough keywords it just shows my wiki [13:17:13] it's the clicks that put your site higher [13:17:37] oh [13:17:38] if the site has google ads - it gets even higher (cough FANDOM cough) [13:18:02] lol [13:18:36] the song trend on TikTok drom April is still getting me more clicks than ever [13:18:44] Also wikitide is free or not [13:18:50] but it also works on a different client [13:19:02] yes [13:19:10] [1/2] yes [13:19:10] [2/2] WikiForge is premium version tho [13:20:15] the business model for WikiForge seems really problematic [13:20:24] do you mean like how many times i clicked it or other people using google click it? [13:21:22] How do i get a wiki i only see the paying Options [13:21:54] Plus it's a very new hosting service. We cannot tell what will happen to it [13:22:06] And what will change [13:22:07] [1/2] same as on Miraheze, request it [13:22:08] [2/2] I suggest to join their discord after all [13:22:42] But i can only a request a wiki premium [13:22:46] already did lo [13:22:54] That's just for Wiki Team you need Python 2.7. Does it still work at all? šŸ¤Ø [13:23:12] The issue is that they would need hundreds and hundreds of wikis paying $28 a month to have enough to even employ one full-time person [13:23:16] [1/2] wikiforge is premium, wikitide is free [13:23:17] [2/2] you're on the wrong website i think [13:23:28] Oh [13:23:36] [1/2] clicks in google results [13:23:36] [2/2] at the beginning I used to check results by myself and clicking on my wiki links to boost it a very little (in different browsers w/ incognito and w/ vpn lol) [13:23:38] And until you get to that point (which I don't think they will in any reasonable timeframe), they are relying on volunteers [13:23:46] You will find more information in that server then [13:24:04] And man, if you think serving Miraheze users causes burnout, try dealing with customers who have actual expectations because they paid money [13:24:08] Oh wait I confused the users [13:25:09] [1/3] somehow people still make it work šŸ¤· [13:25:10] [2/3] there's P3 version too [13:25:10] [3/3] but me and python don't go well together, I had to ask someone once, and the other time I used FANDOM node.js variant (worked) [13:25:33] [1/2] i never clicked on my wiki in google [13:25:33] [2/2] and basically the only one on the wiki is me, unless random IPs without miraheze accounts clicked it but i dont think its like that [13:26:05] Visits to the website from links also count I believe [13:26:36] for what, Google? [13:27:02] Yeah [13:27:08] That's definitely not the case [13:27:16] dude, idk, my wiki was alone, I initially had to compete w/ FANDOM too, because Google still had it in its cash after deletion [13:28:13] [1/2] i dont think so [13:28:13] [2/2] how does google know if people are clicking from other websites, when using different browsers and stuff [13:28:38] brwosers that arent chrome [13:29:03] Hmm linking was recommended on many arricles on SEO, but maybe it affects something else [13:29:29] The presence of links to your site is a relevant factor that Google uses to determine ranking [13:29:41] But individual people clicking on the links is not relevant. Google doesn't have that information [13:30:52] there's literally section w/ popular queries in console [13:31:07] Not very informed on the matter so thanks for clarifying that! <:pupCoffeeMH:766487840694599711> [13:31:53] it shows how many times links were shown or clicked on certain queries, which countries, devices, what are the most popular queries [13:32:39] Yeah google search console show a lot of interesting data like this [13:36:58] even more stuff w/ google analytics, I believe (which is a no for Miraheze) [13:47:48] Iā€™m pretty sure someone will be able to offer us a 0% interest loan just to get out of this crisis [13:48:42] Bro I WISH my fandom wiki got deleted [13:50:05] Iā€™m fighting against an essentially dead wiki thatā€™s had no edits since 2021 <:tadaomijiii:940310127926456380> [13:50:41] Money is not the issue [13:52:19] my wiki was too niche so I had no problem persuading them to delete it [13:52:30] Mine has too many pagesšŸ„² [13:52:44] thatā€™s literally why they wonā€™t delete it [13:52:59] yes, this shit happens often [13:53:00] Despite it being dead for two years [13:57:17] I mean it kinda is, just not at the scale that matters [13:57:46] It's the lowest of the issues now. Money has never been great but it's not ending us. [13:58:33] I mean the issue is that you don't have full-time staff. That's a money issue [13:59:11] We don't have anyone. Barely any volunteers. [14:02:11] Well in a sense it is but to have staff we'd need probably 5 times more than we have now [14:02:26] but yes it's indeed hard to find people willing to do volunteer work unpaid [14:02:27] we've tried... [14:03:02] Oh believe me I know, we have dealt with basically the identical problem on the runescape wikis [14:03:32] I've volunteered at a youth-based non-profit before. Although we were not paid, they still gave us things like free food and even bubble tea coupons. [14:04:35] It was more appreciation than payment, and you often see the same volunteers coming back again and again, not just for the free stuff, but because they feel appreciated and part of a vibrant community. [14:04:42] I mean we could do that [14:05:15] Yeah I think the latter part is also an issue [14:05:19] I tried the year in tech once when I was SRE. I'm sure we could spend Ā£5 on a voucher. [14:05:53] The environment hasn't always been great and especially not being appreciated by some people or even by colleagues sometimes is probably by negative (I don't mean myself here, speaking more generally) [14:07:19] The reality is the vast majority of people who resigned from SRE over the years did so because of disagreements/drama. I can only count 4 or 5 that left purely due to inactivity/lack of time [14:08:34] On the contrary, being paid doesn't mean you'll put up with a bad work environment. I worked as a manager at a Mall Santa photo company, and by Christmas Eve I was more than happy to slam the door shut behind me. I was ignored by all of the higher-ups, leaving me to deal with all of the flak and issues with no support. [14:09:01] Last October they called me to tell me that I "did a great job last season" and offered to hire me back. My eyes were rolling out of their sockets. [14:09:42] Oh no I don't mean that. I mean even if some payment/reward was given there would still be that other issue to fix [14:10:03] If you're looking for something cheap but sentimentally rewarding, merch/tshirts are awesome [14:10:15] so yeah clearly people won't put up with it even if paid [14:10:33] We did consider those in the form of selling them to the community in return for a price/donation actually [14:13:06] That is probably unlikely to bring in significant revenue [14:13:18] Plus it just creates one more thing for someone to consistently manage [14:14:34] Quite a few non-profits do sell merch. It alone doesn't generate revenue, but it fosters community spirit and can also spread awareness. That pays for itself in the long-run. [14:16:00] The non-profit I worked for prints t-shirts all the time. It gets their brand in more places than word-of-mouth. Of course they do a lot of in-person events, so t-shirts are more important for them, but it certainly builds a culture around their brand and identity. [14:20:19] Miraheze should have started doing that after turning 5 lol [14:21:34] We had explored that idea before but we assumed many wouldnt of been interested [14:27:27] I'm not saying it's not worth it - the problem is getting someone to consistently manage it [14:28:29] If you are having a hard time getting enough people to handle core tech functionality, you will probably have a hard time keeping a merch store going [14:41:02] yeah that was the main issue no one really volunteered to manage that and people were needed in other areas [14:41:32] and of course some people already held 2 or 3 major roles at the same time [14:41:38] towards the end all Stewards were also SRE members [15:02:56] Maybe once things are fixed [15:03:10] To me, thinking about merch is the last thing anyone needs atm [15:03:20] Nobody was suggesting doing it now haha [15:03:27] Yeah fair lol [15:03:51] I think the feeling of being appreciated by the community and being part of something good is great and i understand why people return to that non-profit that k6ka talks about. [15:03:53] Is there any updates on the situation so farM [15:04:11] Or is Owen still in discussion? [15:06:09] weekend, let's just let oir nerves relax lol [15:07:49] [1/3] One key is that you can't read the "tone" on the internet. [15:07:50] [2/3] When the work is only through a screen, the bonding between members of a community came be less rewarding and people can disregard others just as "people on the internet". [15:07:50] [3/3] I think that's a common issue of the medium (the internet) so we need to make efforts into dispel the misconceptions and miscommunications we may have in Miraheze henceforth [15:08:52] I think this is a really important point and gives a pretty clear lesson for the future [15:08:54] Discussions continue [15:09:16] You guys don't really have a tech volunteer manpower problem so much as you have a conflict-resolution problem [15:10:18] [1/3] will be honest, yesterday morning CA told me was trying to calm things. That hope was quickly dashed upon informed he did something that set everything off again. last night, I strongly advised him to get his staff to quit causing trouble here and do a follow up with his report to the board as there is something that they might not be aware of...yes, i'm trying to buy more time with [15:10:18] [2/3] this [15:10:18] [3/3] not sure if CA is awake yet told him to take a mandatory 2 week vacation [15:11:36] That's true [15:16:30] Update on my part coming in the next hour [15:19:17] šŸ¤” [15:43:03] How do I request image dumps for my wikis? I'm planning to host them independently [15:45:42] [[SN]] [15:45:42] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [15:45:43] [15:46:46] On there, should be plenty of other people can see how it should be posted [15:52:53] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Owen for those interested [15:56:03] Thank you for the clarity and ensuring stability as much as you can @owenrb. Your service so far has been much appreciated and I wish you luck in future. [15:56:41] I came into this project to bring stability, I'm not going to go out leaving it unstable as much as I can possibly help it [15:59:18] its mirover [16:00:40] @aidzymosan it's not. That statement ensures we will not go before September 1st and confirms a chance at survival. [16:01:08] Ah, so it's gonna survive then? [16:01:20] Discussions with a few people are going via @orduin who I'm sure will communicate if there's anything substantial to say. [16:01:44] so, now all if not most hopes on Void? [16:01:53] At least until September 1st. No agreement has been reached beyond that. [16:02:08] @orduin is leading discussions [16:02:25] FYI: I have now processed most of the dump requests [16:02:53] This is going to leave me with more questions than answers. [16:03:12] Reception, can you please pin my dumps guide, for easier reference to users? [16:03:30] what remains is the large ones which have to be done manually - these take longer, and currently I'm waiting until Void is around as I need a bit more disk space to work with on mwtask141 [16:03:52] MacFan4000 Isn't he already online? [16:04:06] How so? Essentially Owen's giving breathing room for an orderly transition to those who want to try to keep things up and running. [16:04:13] As soon as there is anything to share. We will share it. [16:04:28] Feel free to ask sensible questions though [16:04:43] Pinned for now, fuller guide to come [16:04:50] thanks [16:05:01] Recognizing that answers to many sensible questions may be "We have to wait to hear from Void" šŸ™‚ [16:05:12] You have people migrating from this platform on the left, and now we have people saying it's likely going to survive. So, which one is it? [16:05:13] Deeply appreciated, though. My time is very, very crunched these days [16:05:47] Not likely, possible. The road forward is still narrow, but they should be given a good shot at it if they're willing to try. [16:06:00] We know it will survive until September 1st. Wiki creations are suspended. Talks are ongoing about any new project / company to take over. [16:06:30] The high-level communication has been very poor, but right now I would put a chunk of money on it continuing to exist in the longer term [16:06:41] I'll still be around, editing cross-wiki, left and right. [16:07:03] I wouldn't say the communication has been poor. We've been transparent where we can - but things have been moving way too fast to communicate. [16:07:25] I definitely wouldn't put a chunk of money on it. There's still a lot to be worked out by those who have expressed interest in leading any future board. [16:07:46] No the communication has been exceptionally poor lol. Live-tweeting the supposed destruction of the site (and dragging @ everyone into it) was an incredibly bad move [16:07:57] That was not done by the Board though [16:08:10] The people involved are trying to get communication out as quick as they can. Things are moving very fast and a lot of people are sharing stuff when they aren't sure. [16:08:13] Yes it was? [16:08:16] Whatever the case is, it's on thin ice right now in terms of the migration process. [16:08:29] The original tweets were not. [16:08:29] Neither I or Void have tweeted anything to my knowledge [16:08:53] The June 15th tweets were not from Void? [16:09:00] I did the tweeting [16:09:18] I thought you meant the June 8th - https://twitter.com/miraheze/status/1666661139982299136 [16:09:21] left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing [16:09:29] Miraheze is about to explode and so is Betelgeuse [16:09:30] That was not the board [16:09:43] June 15th tweets now looking at them seems accurate and reasonable [16:09:48] Void isn't the only one who does the tweets. If I'm correct, multiple people operate that account.' [16:09:48] Miraheze is more like a microorganism than a human [16:09:59] As that was tweeting a statement of the Board [16:10:02] Cluster of microorganisms [16:10:07] The June 15th ones are copies of the board & void's statement and are accurate [16:10:22] That was SRE, who BTW should not have been in charge of community outreach [16:10:30] [1/2] can we just wait to see the result of discussions? [16:10:30] [2/2] I kind of don't see the point in bringing up poor communication anymore at this time [16:10:31] The problem is that you guys consistently have made hasty decisions in the heat of the moment, then immediately dragged thousands of people into those decisions [16:10:43] And then about an hour later you realize, oh man, that was a bad move [16:10:45] We have not made hasty decisions [16:10:46] Life sucks sometimes [16:10:56] The board have not made any hasty decisions [16:10:58] If you honestly believe that, I don't know what to say [16:11:08] Can you explain what hasty decision was made? [16:11:12] Hereā€™s a little thing Owen [16:11:22] They spent I believe a week before deciding that if things don't change we'd have to close. [16:11:39] Welp [16:11:54] https://tenor.com/view/caos-bob-esponja-crisis-patricio-gif-23199341 [16:11:58] [1/2] Well snap decision to quit due to legal threat [16:11:58] [2/2] Resigning SRE hijacking twitter [16:12:12] Yeh I can actually concur with @owenrb [16:12:20] Tl;dr panic [16:12:32] They spent a while thinking. I know that because Iā€™ve been in discussion with him [16:12:50] Like I said, you guys don't have a tech volunteer manpower problem, you have a conflict resolution problem [16:12:53] Why donā€™t we just continue and pretend nothing is happening? [16:13:00] I wouldn't say it was a snap decision to leave a place you don't want to be, where you are unappreciated and where people are threatening to take you to court. If anything, I'm probably stupid still being here in any capacity [16:13:17] This coming from a place of not understanding how people are feeling when they are threatened with legal action [16:13:17] This group is maybe the worst I have ever seen in open-source-world at resolving conflicts without it escalating into existential problems [16:13:18] I know full well from working with me when I was member of SRE that @owenrb doesn't take major decisions lightly and is very considerate. [16:13:37] He's doing us a massive favour staying around and ensuring an orderly decision [16:13:46] I don't even know what the conflict is at this point [16:13:49] That was definitely not on Owen, as far as I understand [16:13:57] I understand, just pointing it out as concerning [16:14:00] If you are going to be critical of individuals, please move that elsewhere. It's not welcome and ain't going to improve stuff. [16:14:08] Damn that sucks. We donā€™t want you to leave šŸ˜¦ [16:14:31] I'm not being critical of individuals, I'm being critical of the overall organization. Everyone deserves blame for things getting to this point [16:14:32] This tbh [16:14:37] What are people threating taking legal action over? [16:14:47] Petty stuff probably [16:15:03] Well of course [16:15:16] Itā€™s human error that got us here [16:15:18] Can we be a bit more future thinking please? [16:15:21] Like yeah, it's probably reasonable to put more of the blame on the UO side of things. But the sooner you guys realize that your style of conflict management is F-tier, the better chance you have of surviving in the long term [16:15:48] I'm unsure what conflict I've actually been tasked to resolve [16:15:49] Itā€™s human resilience that will get us out of here [16:15:50] You are naming individuals there. You've just been asked to calm down. [16:15:53] Anyway, I think the successor plan has an extremely good chance of working because Labster is a steady hand [16:16:01] It's hard to force people to stay when they don't want to be here [16:16:16] fellas [16:16:21] Also, is Owen secretly U.N. Owen? [16:16:57] They're leaving because of internet drama that got out of hand, not because they just randomly got sick of doing SRE work [16:17:18] The faded star is setting [16:17:26] And that drama would non negotiable [16:17:42] I'm not going to back down on a decision I know is 100% correct. [16:18:01] These weren't overnight issues. Things didn't just happen in seconds. Please respect people's choices. [16:18:04] Because at the end of the day, I'd be the one explaining that to a regulator or in a court, not the volunteers. [16:18:39] Continuing to question people in here about their choices and being critical without any intent to help improve things for the future which is what this looks like is simply going to put things at risk. [16:19:00] I think the general direction of what you wanted to do was eminently reasonable, but the way it was carried out left a lot to be desired and contributed to the current situation [16:19:13] Damn what have I missed here [16:19:23] @rhinosf1 cook is trying to point out what the problems are so they can be addressed as i has earlier in the week. Yes, its not fun. [16:19:29] A lot of stuff. Kinda envy you [16:19:34] I know what it's like to be on the hook for GDPR compliance. It sucks. You need your delegates to actually not screw things up [16:19:55] It was carried out in the way the community asked it to be carried - and when it didn't go their way, that's when things happened. [16:20:09] You need to be less rude. This is why we will fall. [16:20:11] Learning from the past is how you prepare for the future. With that said I don't think I really want to hear about internal drama either. I just wanna know what's wrong so the service can continue working and I don't have to migrate my wiki [16:20:11] They asked for a Board review, and the Board agreed it was correct [16:20:11] Personally I don't see the usefulness of debating previous actions as nothing is going to chnage in that regard. What's done is done regardless of whether you think that was right or not. [16:20:30] Sorry why are you responding to that message? [16:20:53] I agree you have to learn from the past but the discussions in here and just going in circles. [16:21:03] Both sides have made their positions clear on that matter so nothing that is said now will change anything. [16:21:06] We shouldnā€™t focus on the past, we need to move forward. Time is a valuable resource now [16:21:30] We can discuss what things went wrong but not try to rerash debates about specific actions that were taken [16:21:39] One is none. Two is one. Three is everyone. [16:21:42] I'm always open to critism, when that critism is specific, rather than "you just need to be better" as an fyi. If there is specific critism, I'm all ears [16:21:51] Read my longer comment here: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1006789349498699827/1119094856875249754 [16:22:03] Comments like this aren't pertinent either, please stick to the topic. [16:22:14] [1/2] to be fair it's because everyone's giving circular responses. It's only going this way because of the communication fallout between the board, the volunteers, and the rest of the site. I still have no god damn idea what's happening and honestly it's really discouraging when trying to find out is met with "stop talking about it, it's not relevant an [16:22:15] [2/2] ymore" [16:22:17] Apparently. I only know about the service possibly shutting down, all this drama is over my head right now [16:22:27] I think there should be three lead stewards [16:22:37] If that's not specific enough, I can be more specific. But my point is not to single you out - in fact I think you're on the higher end of reasonableness in this whole situation. I'm sorry if that's how it came across [16:22:53] That's not really relevant at all here... [16:23:09] Wellā€¦ I triedā€¦ [16:23:11] I do agree the wider situation absolutely could have been handled better [16:24:18] There was originally, that didn't have much of an impact on the situation though [16:24:19] [1/2] There has been a lot of internal conflict. It's not something that's happened overnight but it's exploded recently. The organisation is currently in an unstable state so has said it will close in September unless an alternative is found that ensures proper stability. A member of the board is discussing with some groups about options for alternatives [16:24:19] [2/2] but it's still fairly early on. [16:25:12] Yeah, I would say as I've said before that it wasn't all great and suddenly one thing happened and caused this. There were many issues before as well [16:28:05] Okay, so the call for more volunteers is due to conflict-management and resolution problems rather than flat-out disinterest [16:28:13] Yes and no [16:28:24] see that's the message that was being put out earlier, which is why I am confused still [16:28:29] I'm sure seeing conflict didn't necessarily inspire people but I've not seen many competent people showing an interest [16:28:44] I personally tried many different ways to recruit people for software engineer at least and no one really showed up [16:28:53] I think you two are talking about slightly different things [16:29:06] sorry if I misunderstood that [16:29:53] As a semi-competent person myself who has considered volunteering after this incident it's really more just worrying to me that these crucial details aren't trickling out. I understand the need for discretion, especially because NDAs are involved, but it really seems like there's something more going on [16:29:56] We had a very low number of volunteers and most of the community weren't in active roles which left us more exposed. [16:30:01] [1/2] Can you elaborate on the previous issues or is that stuff that shouldnā€™t be made public? [16:30:01] [2/2] Iā€™ve only been around to see the most recent issue and one when John and UO quit [16:30:10] ^ [16:30:50] Not in a few words with one hand. Maybe later. [16:31:28] It's difficult to even determine what the root cause of the issues were. But there were often heated arguments/disagreements between various members of SRE [16:31:50] There's not really any "secrecy" for most things as it seems to be suggested and a lot of them took place in public on Meta, public Discord channels or Phabricator [16:32:21] But when I say wider issues they also relate to issues with infrastructure it's not only the volunteer problem [16:33:03] But a potential explanation for issues within SRE is also the fact that it was always understaffed and so people were likely burned out or disappointed that their work was not being appreciated enough. I guess that's a bit circular but yeah... [16:33:12] [1/2] I agree this was somewhat confusing since the official wording is that the existing tech volunteers just got burnt out. In reality that is partially true, but it's more directly caused by a recent (very avoidable, and probably fixable) schism where roughly half of the technical people left and started their own thing, due to disagreements (if you c [16:33:13] [2/2] an call it that, it was really more an interpersonal issue than principled differences) over how people handled a particularly problematic user, and some possible PII/GDPR compliance issues that arose from that [16:33:34] Yeah it's fine if you can't get an entire synopsis of all the drama. I just want to understand what is going on because messaging to the community is conflicted [16:33:49] Well, in March 2023 John and UO left due to another issue and they were both very valuable to the project and needed within SRE [16:33:56] I think when void wrote that he meant for me and him. I donā€™t know about Owen or Macfan. [16:34:09] There are larger structural issues where relying on unpaid volunteers to essentially do oncall work can lead to people getting easily stressed out [16:34:18] Yeah pretty much [16:34:20] Because other statements were made about the others who left? [16:34:35] The project grew exponentially but the number of volunteers didn't [16:34:53] here's a chart showing that [16:35:37] But for a project with 200k visits per day the SRE team was always very much on the low side considering that no one is able to dedicate a lot of time due to IRL commitments [16:36:47] For any future project to be sustainable, we need much stronger Human Resources across all tech, community & org roles [16:36:56] why not [16:37:26] Non profit [16:37:27] Cost is the short answer here. There hasn't been enough funding [16:37:28] we barely have the money to pay for infrastructure? [16:37:37] thats fair [16:37:45] [[Finance]] [16:37:45] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Finance [16:37:46] [16:37:47] full time employment is definitely out of the question for a long time. Ocasionally paying people could be the way to go [16:37:54] but is there seriously no way to secure external funding [16:37:54] [1/2] just put ads everywhere smh [16:37:55] [2/2] /j [16:38:03] that's the question we need to figure out [16:38:04] if you guys need infrastructure funding talk to me [16:38:21] But yes I do think part-time/occasional paid 'staff' is necessary long term [16:38:46] It's more difficult for a non-profit to get funds. Even wikipedia sometimes asks for donations [16:38:53] we can't give you money for actual full time staff, but your entire annual infra budget is like $7k a year. and you add significantly more than that amount to the mediawiki ecosystem, that my project (and many others) benefit from [16:39:10] Please talk to @zppix [16:39:13] wikipedia asks for donations on every single page [16:39:23] I've been talking to Labster extensively [16:39:30] We do fundraisers that last months sometimes but we've never got too much [16:39:49] I personally don't think a 100% donation model can really gather enough funds for part-time/specific paid people [16:40:02] Then they are aware. I've Labster knows what you can offer. It will be in their discussions. [16:40:16] no, for sustainability what you need is a financial backer [16:40:31] well it's easier said than done [16:40:43] but people who work in IT are really expensive even if just a few hours [16:40:56] There's also a Swedish guy that owns a datacenter that offered pretty much infinite compute racks and machines yesterday, but that got lost in the mess [16:40:57] mhm [16:41:01] Especially right now it's hard to get backers with low confidence [16:41:18] That sounds interesting but who would be able to go there when we've got issues? [16:41:26] currently we've got many physical infra issues [16:41:37] It's not a colo facility, they just do the maintenance themselves [16:41:43] If you can remember who, talk to @zppix or @.labster [16:41:46] I'm aware of him, and will be making sure Labster and Zppix are aware as well. [16:42:00] Thank you @orduin [16:42:36] well I guess I will be holding on to my worldbuilding then [16:42:59] god I don't want to go back to nests of google docs, please fix all this so I don't have to go back to nests of google docs, please [16:43:14] has anyone considered a grant as a short term finance source [16:43:30] yeah I'm advising Labster more generally on how to proceed, since I have experience with pretty much all of the issues you guys are dealing with here [16:43:58] @orduin is working with the right people and they are trying their best [16:44:00] Not when nobody in a position to get one has the time or energy to go shopping around for one. [16:44:25] Mind a DM so slow mode and noise doesn't confuse stuff [16:44:31] but it could provide a benificial income surplus [16:44:58] this is a really important point btw. even back in February/March I was considering just having our company make a donation to cover your annual operating costs, because of how much good you guys are doing for the MediaWiki ecosystem. But then there was leadership turmoil and I got scared off from contributing [16:45:00] It's also not a reasonable thing to pursue while the incorporation model is potentially shifting in the very near future [16:45:19] yeah go for it, the 30 secs does tend to limit things [16:45:21] Income isn't as critical to the current situation as is solving the current organizational and volunteer problems. [16:45:41] Definitely agree with that [16:45:52] what are our critical positions to fill in terms of volunteering [16:45:55] i suppose but income is always a factor [16:46:03] by your assessment of the situation [16:46:24] I think this is not the best way to look at it right now [16:47:07] well our goal should be to pinpoint our areas of need so we can attempt to fill them, no? [16:47:09] Focus on healing, getting everyone who is burnt out on the drama to come back and realize your common goals [16:47:34] so you know how someone mentioned grant shopping right [16:47:40] [1/4] 1. Org [16:47:40] [2/4] 2. Volunteer recruitment [16:47:41] [3/4] 3. Finances [16:47:41] [4/4] 4. Everything else [16:47:47] org? [16:47:55] org as in miraheze [16:47:57] Structural Organization [16:48:02] Oh okay [16:48:11] I know that sounds kinda wishy washy but that's 100% what you need to do. Pretty much all of your core contributors have resigned or are hella burnt out. Focus on getting everyone on the same team [16:48:47] I know that UO is almost certainly not coming back. Agent has agreed to stay on pending wind down, TBD for future. Same with Reception123 and I as well. [16:49:04] Johnā€™s out though, Iā€™m pretty sure permanently [16:49:06] Thatā€™s not the point [16:49:11] Still off-the point [16:49:24] You guys are doing something really cool that is super valuable to a lot of people. It's bigger than any one of you, and you're basically the only thing stopping Fandom from having a monopoly on general wiki hosting. There are a lot of cool problems for you guys to solve together, if you can let someone else (probably Labster) handle the drama [16:50:10] What are the objectives that we are going to deal with first in Miraheze to try to advance? [16:50:37] @avengium this [16:51:03] Welfare is a huge thing. [16:51:32] And step 1 just has to wait for those (Void, Labster, Owen, Zippx) who are having an active discussion on a future organization. [16:51:38] I do think volunteer recruitment and finance has to be connected as some would be more willing to join/rejoin if there was a prospect of paid help sometime in the future [16:51:52] This for sure. But at what level and to whom? [16:51:56] It's a problem we weren't really able to solve. I remember having several people over several years talking about it, but never really getting anything serious out of it. [16:52:19] Indeed. There's even a policy I think but it hasn't been effective [16:52:50] RobLa was the last I know that tried properly [16:53:02] Did that actually exist? [16:53:49] At least from my analysis as well, the reason a lot of volunteers got burnt out is because they were overworked on the project and it was hard to take breaks because there was a shortage of volunteers? [16:54:03] Pretty much. At least I'd say that's my case [16:54:03] Am I close with that assessment [16:54:07] If it does, then that's a bit symptomatic of another problem: trying to solve problems with ineffective/toothless policy instead of addressing it effectively. [16:54:10] A policy didn't actually exist and Rob was working on it before they left at the end of their term but was unable to make progress due to personal reasons [16:54:39] So welfare = volunteer team being stocked to some extent [16:54:43] Big contributing factor, IMO [16:54:53] That's part of it yes [16:55:15] We can't have a few people having to manage loads of things [16:55:45] In theory we can if we don't put too much pressure on them to solve every problem as it appears. [16:55:52] so we really do need a stocked volunteer team [16:56:07] IMO a part of this is not always upgrading to the newest MW version [16:56:19] LTS only [16:56:31] Infra was also a big thing as well. Itā€™s demoralising trying to run infra that causes frequent 503 and poor performance [16:56:47] Yeah that too... and everything being slow [16:57:07] And also having to deal with db141 and swift issues, the latter haven't even been resolved yet [16:57:27] I donā€™t know if this is possible so the more tech-friendly folks here will have to fill me in but, would it be better to just kind of start over with infra? [16:57:52] I'm both incredibly thankful for all the work on fixing db141 but recognize that was significant effort by all volunteers. [16:57:56] With the amount planned in the next few risks, LTS could be a bit of a shock to users because they could end up loosing a lot of extensions at very short notice. [16:58:10] If weā€™re reincorporating in the US anyway, why not move over servers and all that and just try for a fresh start with it all? [16:58:17] If we go version by version, it'll give us about 2 years to plan alternatives for that. [16:58:27] [[Finance]] [16:58:27] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Finance [16:58:28] [16:58:30] :) [16:58:37] Sounds great on paper, logistical nightmare to implement. [16:58:41] Thatā€™s fair but arenā€™t we currently on LTS? It could help to maybe give advance warning or something. [16:58:52] +migration would kill me [16:59:03] Pls no killing Void [16:59:08] Hey uhh, how do I download dumps again? I forgor since the November incident šŸ˜¢ [16:59:15] See pins [16:59:16] True but itā€™s risk vs reward as well right? Logistical nightmare vs constantly dealing with it in the future [16:59:16] 1.39 is LTS. The LTS after 1.39 is likely to be default parsoid. [16:59:22] Special:DataDump (or pins!) [16:59:27] ok [16:59:40] Gonna have to elaborate here a bit, donā€™t fully understand what you mean [16:59:52] Sorry šŸ˜… [16:59:58] In short, we don't have the people power at present to do this safely [17:00:04] We are only going to know the full impact of parsoid with user testing. A new parser is impossible for us to test as a few tech volunteers. [17:00:09] Do the image dumps come with the normal dumps or do I download them seperately? [17:00:10] Really though, it's too early to discuss any big infra tasks at the moment. [17:00:25] Ah [17:00:32] This is answered in the pins in more detail; but that's a separate request [17:00:55] [1/2] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Parsoid [17:00:56] [2/2] In sort, the MW team wants to improve Wikitext -> HTML and that thing broke way too much extensions [17:01:09] If we go LTS -> LTS, that user testing will be limited. If we don't, mediawiki will have built it tools for testing and a slower migration. [17:01:12] I just think it might lessen problems as mentioned above to try and keep on LTS because that way we arenā€™t always looking forward and can focus on things like innovation for CreateWiki, etc. [17:01:22] What the heck is a pin? lol [17:01:36] Pinned messages in the channel. [17:01:42] MediaWiki with a new parser needs us looking forward [17:01:48] Ohh that pin [17:01:51] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1119602342220800110 (Direct link to the comment you want) [17:01:55] Example here is extension testing, weā€™ve been doing it for months and still have 45 extensions left out of 325 [17:02:23] i do genuinely think this is not that hard to fix btw [17:02:30] Itā€™s an insane amount of work for people testing, mainly me Agent Reception123 and MacFan4000 [17:02:34] Alternatively, we made it through 280 extensions in months; which is likely pretty good for all volunteers [17:03:13] oh god 1.49 GB? [17:03:25] my pc is literally gonna explode [17:03:27] Yes but as someone doing a lot of the testing, it was grueling [17:03:41] Well this is partly where see: more volunteers would be helpful šŸ™‚ [17:03:50] Probably yes [17:04:35] And so would knowing your limits and not trying to do too much at once. [17:04:46] 1.49GB is little, I thought you mean 1.49TB [17:05:04] IMO, that's more of a pertinent question than whether or not we can do MW upgrades by the major version or by the LTS release [17:05:21] Yep, all things are marathon not sprint. Easy to forget and overdo it, I am very guilty of this in a non-technical capacity. [17:06:14] If we can build a strong enough team to do it, I think we should stick at version by version. [17:06:20] There's no real reason you can't do both side by side - Miraheze used to [17:06:39] I'm happy once things settle a bit to explain timelines for the migrations coming up. [17:07:33] LTS is supposed for security fixes without having to upgrade "somewhat major" versions [17:07:42] Yeah, and this is another reason we shouldn't be committing to a serious discussion on this just right now. [17:08:30] Hey guys look, my wiki pops up when you type in logo. heh lol [17:09:04] Pretty cool I guess :P [17:10:11] that's awesome, but - there's an active discussion taking the place [17:10:51] Sorry [17:11:01] Ehh, it's winding down, I wouldn't worry about it. [17:11:47] [1/2] I genuinely hope so if a fresh technical perspective bears fruit. Multiple generations of volunteers and limited budgetary resources haven't solved it fully so far. [17:11:47] [2/2] But, first order of business is getting org stuff sorted and I think we're all on same page there. [17:13:54] The reason I am repeatedly bringing up the interesting tech stuff is that I think it can be a strong motivator to get the burnt-out people to get reinvigorated and pushing towards a cool achievement [17:15:05] I told Labster already that if you guys get the organizational stuff figured out, I'm happy to do a really deep dive for 2-4 weeks into your infrastructure issues (because I really, really love making MediaWiki fast) [17:15:15] The new board will need to present a strong direction. [17:16:33] That would be tremendously cool, and thank you for such an offer. [17:16:36] With a competent, full team of SRE yes [17:16:55] Mmm, big tech questions I wanted to investigate were using a different filesystem for our VM image storage so we could take live snapshots of VMs to use as backups and whether or not k8s could be a good solution to MediaWiki deployment. [17:17:55] k8s for mediawiki is the way Wikimedia is going. It's taking a long time though. [17:18:42] That's kinda what got me interested in it [17:19:20] all of our wikis run on kubernetes. it makes jobrunner scaling and rolling deployments much easier [17:19:48] any chance youā€™d be able to help me with a personal project? [17:19:50] I'm not sure whether or not I would recommend it for you guys. It has a learning curve [17:20:01] i need help setting up a MW localhost haha [17:20:12] and Iā€™m on a mac soā€¦.harder [17:20:19] Never really pursued it though because none of our infra team has/had k8s experience [17:20:40] Hmm, I thinkyou should take the datacentre guy up on their offer [17:20:42] Would be a really long term goal if we went through with it. [17:20:43] nah, sorry, debugging MW installations isn't really my cup of tea. just making them fast and using less resources [17:21:23] I havenā€™t even made it yet :p [17:21:25] i think you definitely need to balance the benefits against the increased barrier to entry for new tech volunteers [17:21:55] pay SREs [17:22:05] if/when you start focusing on new tech projects, your first priorities should be on time investments that reduce the amount of day-to-day effort needed by the tech volunteers [17:22:09] not MWEs or lower [17:22:11] Oh definitely. That's part of why it's remained as only an idea rather than as an actual goal [17:22:21] maybe that's automating more SSL-related stuff, maybe that's moving to a new infrastructure that isn't constantly on fire [17:22:22] but SREs and EMs [17:22:53] That is the RequestSSL ext. [17:23:56] I thinkyou should take the datacentre guy up on their offer [17:24:39] People are talking to him [17:25:02] That will help I think on costs/stablity [17:27:43] My Data Dump won't download :( [17:30:34] what issue you get exactly - link not active, error on download? [17:31:49] It keeps saying "Failed - Network Error" everytime. My internet connnection is high and I also have enough storage for it so what gives? [17:32:26] this is my internet bar btw [17:33:23] I think the file is glitched idk [17:39:27] I tried resuming but it restarted and did the same thing over again [17:39:30] Hi @leapedcy! We are very easy to transfer to. Our process is streamlined. Just follow the process at helpcenter . mywikis . wiki / wiki / Migration_to_Miraheze (without the spaces) [17:39:59] @Kizule also is a staff member at MyWikis, so feel free to ask him anything too! [17:44:36] it's image dump or xml? [17:56:16] [1/2] This user named MyWikis sounds like it's advertising. [17:56:16] [2/2] should mywikis#0074 be advertising their service on the main channel? [17:58:02] What interwiki prefix do I use when I import my wiki files from my Miraheze wiki to my new wiki? [17:58:58] <.labster#0000> Good morning folks. Let me process a bit what happened here before making a statement about our future plans, but Iā€™m glad so many people are still interested in helping out. [18:00:19] [1/2] Considering the current situation I don't think there is anything wrong with it (and its not like they are hyper-aggressive in or or something). If it had been during more normal times, yeah it should probably not be allowed, but current situation is far from normal, and people are seeking and asking for alternatives to host there wikis on if or when M [18:00:19] [2/2] H does go down [18:01:21] It was in direct response to a user question which is within bounds in my view, but I will ask that overt advertisement not take place. [18:01:53] Others involved in the transition plan, please feel free to override and/or extend this view [18:07:26] <.labster#0000> [1/2] I think first of all I want to give a big thank you to @owenrb, because I know for a fact how much time you have to put in to run a board of directors. He was doing a lot of roles for us, for free, and was instrumental in putting together Miraheze Limited. I don't think anyone can doubt that his committment to the project was one of the factors that kept us growing and operat [18:07:26] <.labster#0000> [2/2] ing for the past 3+ years. [18:14:30] Yeah please don't underestimate how much unacknowledged, silent effort goes into running an organization like this. It's hard to overstate the amount of un-fun stuff you have to do just to continue to have a company and bank account, and when nobody else is gonna do it, it almost always falls on the person in charge to do all of the un-fun stuff [18:14:52] image dump. sorry 4 late response [18:14:57] morning, waiting šŸ‘€ [18:14:58] So it's worth acknowledging that effort [18:15:40] <.labster#0000, replying to notaracham#0000> I think I would say that normal MH rules still apply on advertising. It's one thing to say that alternatives exist, and this is fine for free speech, and even to link to them. But we don't allow straight up advertising and advocating for any commercial service in any industry. [18:16:06] oh no I'm gonna be outed as a cloudflare shill [18:16:24] <.labster#0000> that's fine everyone is a cloudflare shill [18:17:00] Whomst among us is not at some point a shill for CloudFlare [18:17:11] <.labster#0000> _ponders mentioning 1.1.1.1_ [18:17:18] Considering the site is shutting down, are the devs planning on removing the donation page that suggests it could help "keep us going for eight years more or longer"? [18:17:37] <.labster#0000> The site is not shutting down. [18:17:40] had to use 1.1.1.1. in 2022 until it stopped working for me [18:18:03] In this case, it was in response to a question about the website, so it is probably alright. [18:18:16] (the irony is actually i am pretty close as you'll get to a cloudflare hater. at least on some things) [18:18:19] Fun that they can't post links still, though. [18:24:36] <.labster#0000> [1/2] We've had a few communications mistakes, but the plan for right now is not to shut Miraheze down, but transition to some other legal organization. We are not planning on any changes to the core service -- it will still offer free customizable wikis without ads littered all over the page. We obviously need to do some internal restructuring of our team, especially with so many [18:24:37] <.labster#0000> [2/2] vacancies, but we've had a lot of interest in people helping to fill those vacancies. [18:52:19] I just remembered that I've left username change, can't even remember when exactly ... [18:52:30] *request [19:00:24] _looks at Orain_ [19:07:52] Orain wasn't DDoS'd [19:24:01] <.labster#0000> I kind of want to make a joke about bringing Dusti back right now but sadly as the leader I really shouldn't. [19:25:28] I'd be on a plane to trout you myself [19:28:40] Hey! Saw Miraheze was looking for devs on Twitter. I'm a Googler looking to jump ship. Is there any information anywhere on what sort of roles are open? [19:29:45] <.labster#0000> We have lots of roles open but none of them are paid @theskeward . https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Miraheze_Volunteering_Opportunities [19:29:53] [[Miraheze Volunteering Opportunities]] + #tech-community [19:29:53] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Miraheze_Volunteering_Opportunities [19:29:54] [19:30:07] whoops [19:30:48] Ah, misunderstood, thought you were hiring rather than looking for volunteers. Thanks for the info, will take a look if I get some time for more open source work [19:31:03] <.labster#0000> Thanks for considering us anyway. [19:31:24] <.labster#0000> I would hire, but our budget right now is so small we can't really afford cloud services. [19:35:36] So it's not like the service will become inaccessible on Oct 1st? [19:36:29] <.labster#0000> I'm not planning on service ending, no. I'm not officially in charge yet, and I have yet to look over every detail of the financials, but I never saw any reason other than volunteer burnout that we had to shut down. [19:37:01] <.labster#0000> And volunteer burnout is solvable, either by recruitment or changes in conditions. [19:37:10] Thank Christ, I'd hate to have to abandon my creative projects. MediaWiki is the only way I can put more complex stuff into a navigable format. [19:37:38] <.labster#0000> (at least the way people here have been using the word "burnout".) [19:38:26] <.labster#0000> [1/2] Solving the money issue is actually pretty important. We are very weird for a tech org in that we actually have more volunteer developer time than money to spend on servers. Extremely weird. Almost every other organization will solve performance problems by buying more hardware, because money is easy and people are hard. But we've been treating our servers as pets and pampe [19:38:26] <.labster#0000> [2/2] ring them so that they can chug along with 95% load. [19:39:40] <.labster#0000> Because of the lack of money, SREs have had to go above and beyond on a regular basis, which is not sustainable. IMO anyway. [19:41:08] <.labster#0000> Which is not to say that any decisions were wrong. It's just until the past week we've continued to see strong growth, and scaling up is always hard on any budget. [19:41:37] <.labster#0000> (I need to compile some of these thoughts into an actual on-wiki written response. [19:42:05] That's a good idea. I've been biting my nails since the tweets two days ago; had to join the Discord to see if there was any hope. [19:42:29] There's hope but nothing concrete I believe [19:42:50] <.labster#0000> It's hard to spin up a new corporation on a holiday weekend. [19:42:51] @.labster seems to making good progress with @orduin to make something concrete a possibility [19:43:23] Hope is better than nothing, that's for sure. [19:44:22] Dum spiro spero... [19:45:52] @nekto_n ? [19:46:12] <.labster#0000> '' while i breathe, I hope " [19:46:17] Latin [19:46:37] What will be done re the huge amont of inactive/dead wikis? [19:46:43] <.labster#0000> As I've said elsewhere, we have a lot community support and enough money to last a few months in our current configuration. If people stop supporting us, that could be a problem, but until then we have the same chances we always had. [19:47:22] <.labster#0000, replying to eytirth#0000> Nothing for now, this is near the bottom of things that need done. Things that only consume disk space are low concern. [19:47:32] I only know 1 Latin word and that's because our admins at work use Latin words for usb passwords [19:47:38] <.labster#0000> As I've said elsewhere, we have a lot community support and enough money to last a few months in our current configuration. If people stop supporting us, that could be a problem, but until then we have a chance. [19:48:52] <.labster#0000> Also don't all rush to donate. We will be moving to a new org, and for now we don't need a bunch of money in the old accounts. [19:49:28] A new song? [19:49:32] <.labster#0000> This is early days still. I hope to have things moving along further in a week. [19:49:58] I wish I could afford to donate. Something about flats being expensive. [19:50:27] Please donā€™t donate to miraheze the U.K. org because that money would be hard to trans over to the one in the us [19:51:01] Hmm, I current donate to Miraheze via GitHub. Should I put a pause on that now while these things are getting sorted out? [19:51:16] A conclusion? Or new beginning? [19:51:18] Need to probably go with stripe @.labster once you have a US bank account [19:51:35] <.labster#0000> Stripe is nice, yes. [19:51:54] @dragonmarquise please wait. Pop it in your piggy bank for a few weeks. [19:52:21] <.labster#0000> We are not in danger of running out of money in the next few months. [19:53:23] <.labster#0000> It sounds ominous but imagine if everyone stopped buying McDonalds for a few months. Would they even survive? So we are stable enough for now financially. [19:54:16] Maybe not the branch, but the entire McDonalds thing, probably. šŸ¤” [19:54:27] doug should have his GIWA role removed on Discord [19:55:50] [1/2] Miraheze Limited has enough funds for around 6 months of continued service, this gives plenty of time for a US entity to setup and plan before a transition (if that is required) - that assumes no further donations. More donations buy more time, but that definitely not needed for the old entity, so I would repeat the calls above for those who donate to hold off for now, as it just [19:55:50] [2/2] makes things more difficult down the line for foreign transfers šŸ™‚ [19:57:09] <.labster#0000> Thanks for clarifying Owen. [19:58:46] Kinda funny to hear it being said to stop donating xD, Yes I understand the reasoning put forth for it, still hard to not chuckle at it xD [19:59:39] It is indeed funny considering the push we had recently, but that push provided the financial certainity we now have at least [20:00:06] <.labster#0000> We need people's continued support, and to not overreact by leaving the platform. But as a tech professional, I would feel remiss not to say that it's important to keep current backups. [20:00:16] wait so with this transition to the us would we still be able to edit our wikis on mh? [20:00:40] after october [20:00:42] <.labster#0000> You shouldn't notice any change to your wiki other than a few minutes of downtime. [20:00:44] Ideally stores 2 copies too in case you decide to backup to your laptop and you loose that [20:00:47] I wrote an announcement regarding the future of my wikis [20:00:56] It has happened [20:01:20] There is no guarantee Miraheze will close [20:02:03] Have you filed the paper work @.labster ? Or do you have to wait until after the holiday weekend [20:02:17] The twitter thread that this image was connected to had (hashtag) SaveMiraheze on it [20:02:22] <.labster#0000> I'm talking to a CPA today. [20:02:29] Whatā€™s cpa [20:02:29] im so confused [20:02:35] CPA? [20:02:40] Oh an accountant [20:02:46] <.labster#0000> Certified Public Accountant [20:03:07] Ah [20:04:47] If that's the case then how come that people are saying that Miraheze will shut down? Sorry if I sound dumb, but I haven't caught up on what's going on lately... [20:05:21] well, things been mostly happening here [20:05:35] twitter at this point needs an update [20:05:38] I missed a lot but it looks like there is some hope for it being saved [20:05:38] There's a reasonable possibility it won't. Expect further news next week. [20:05:48] <.labster#0000> The old board gave up, but the community came up with a plan to rescue it. I'll make an an announcement once I have time. [20:05:57] that's so goated from the community [20:06:17] <.labster#0000> @orduin can you please update Twitter to say that Miraheze is not closing, and is working on a plan to continue? [20:06:26] Honestly Iā€™ve only read a few of your messages but I feel like you would be an amazing steward [20:06:52] I even tried to get a hashtag for Save Miraheze or something but I haven't been aware of how it's doing. [20:07:59] <.labster#0000> I'm sorry this whole thing hasn't been communicated well. We'll try to do better in the future. Once I, like, have an actual position of authority. Right now I'm only a former sysadmin/former CFO of Miraheze. [20:09:28] <.labster#0000, replying to !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!#7050> thank you [20:10:23] <.labster#0000> We need to do a sitenotice too. [20:10:46] <.labster#0000> busy busy busy, and I mean that in the Bokononist sense. [20:13:24] At least this speed bump will have motivated me to figure out how to get mediawiki running on my laptop so I might actually know what I'm doing in mediawiki's backend in a few months (provided my ADHD brainsquirrels don't all hare off into a fandom again) [20:14:39] So does that mean the probability of MH shutting down is very unlikely now? [20:15:06] ^ [20:15:38] Nothing concrete exists yet [20:15:58] It would be wise to wait a week or two before panicking though [20:18:20] @.labster you have a minute [20:18:37] <.labster#0000> MH shutting down in the near future is very unlikely. I'm confident, but it's not entirely assured, that we will last much longer. MH will probably give 503 errors in the near future, but as you know these are normal. [20:18:52] <.labster#0000, replying to bwm0#0000> For you? Of course. [20:21:11] much appreciated lol, see DMs [20:22:07] i dont got money :( [20:22:15] [1/2] Admittedly, at this point I'm still set on moving my wiki to MyWikis just for better stability (this incident has made me realize that completely volunteer-run projects like this can't do much if there aren't enough willing volunteers). [20:22:16] [2/2] That being said, I want to still donate to Miraheze once things are settled again. It's still a really great thing to have a free wiki farm like this, especially since not everyone can afford paid options elsewhere. So I definitely see the value in helping Miraheze continue. [20:24:22] Me too [21:01:04] May miraheze last 100 years! [21:02:31] <.labster#0000, replying to dragonmarquise#0000> Just don't move to Fandom. They're the Hotel California of wiki farms. [21:06:30] I'm just about to move my wikis from there. [21:10:01] One may wish to consider whether they need a database back-end to host their content. There are a lot of great static site generators, including free places to host your static content site. Hugo is one such tool I'd recommend learning [21:12:53] dmehus: one may wish to at least wait next week out [21:13:15] Everyone saying they're moving, well I'm gonna stay til the end šŸ«” [21:14:00] You should have a resilience plan [21:14:07] But please give us time [21:14:54] <.labster#0000> Everyone should have backups (but please don't hit Special:DataDump all at once. You have months!) [21:15:49] I mean you all aren't telling me you have no backups [21:18:28] I'm also staying here (you won't get rid of me!), but I'm adding an offline copy to my hard drive so I can work offline [21:36:12] will be interesting to see how everything unfolds [21:38:20] We all Many of us learned the hard way to backup regularly, thanks to the infamous db141 [21:39:48] LMAOOO don't remind me i had nightmares about my data all getting lost [21:40:02] I follow the 3-2-1 rule, 1 on-site copy, split across 2 disks in raid 0 (help I can't think of a way to include 3) [21:40:07] like im not joking i dreamed about it at least 2 times [21:41:18] i remember being in class and reading a message that everything was recovered and i had to leave the classroom to calm tf down lmao [21:42:01] The third should be an offsite copy somewhere. It could be as simple as copying it to an encrypted hard drive and then putting it in a safe at your workplace, or a cloud backup service. [21:42:30] The offsite backup is your absolute last resort backup, because if you need to restore from it, your house probably burned down or something. [21:42:43] I always trusted Miraheze to recover my data šŸ™„ (a.k.a. I don't have backups) [21:43:15] Oh I was making a joke version of it haha but yea that's the actual rule [21:44:51] [1/2] You can never be too careful with backups. I used to not backup my stuff at all. [21:44:51] [2/2] I do a lot of photography, so I save a lot of memoriesā€”including other people's memories. So I have two backup hard drives at home, plus an automatic cloud backup service that I pay for. Still always paranoid that something might happen to everything. [21:46:02] My storage needs are pretty immense tooā€”I have 3 TB backed up onto Backblaze alone. If I needed to restore from my offsite backup, I would definitely need to have them ship a hard drive to me. [21:48:19] [1/2] 3 different copies of the backup [21:48:20] [2/2] 2 offsite backups [21:50:58] Did things get worse? [21:51:01] Guess I didn't make the rule absurd enough lol but it was supposed to be a parody of the actual one [21:51:03] That should be a pretty good assumption. For example, you wouldnā€™t back up your fandom wiki regularly, would you? [21:51:51] Or do people back up their fandom wikis? Iā€™ve never personally. [21:53:40] [1/2] I don't have the money to rebuild my own wiki. [21:53:40] [2/2] A complete shutdown of Miraheze would be a panic. [21:54:05] I follow the one backup rule - make one backup when it seems like everything's falling apart, which it was a few days ago [21:54:55] Things are better [21:56:56] [1/2] There's talk of a new organization to run the Miraheze service, and we've been told we'll be able to run it for another six months beyond June, so I can see that a little bit. [21:56:57] [2/2] But there's no or faint talk of staffing, so I'm skeptical. I hope the new organization doesn't choose to go paid. [21:57:32] @k6ka#0000, thanks for the !vote of confidence on Backblaze. I was looking into migrating from IDrive to Backblaze recently actually [21:59:30] Tbh I would pay [21:59:48] https://tenor.com/view/gigachad-chad-gif-20773266 [22:00:05] Miraheze coming back in the worst times makes it the gigachad of wiki farms [22:00:50] It will remain free, I am one of the people involved in the discussions [22:03:36] [1/2] That's great news. [22:03:36] [2/2] I fully welcome the reversal of the closure plan. [22:08:45] good night ~ [22:12:44] Once you do that, the Miraheze closure is a thing of the past, right? [22:21:59] phoenix?? šŸ„ŗ [22:23:01] THE PHOENIX RISES [22:23:03] I really want to stay at Miraheze. Although I have already made copies, I still prefer Miraheze. Honestly, I have doubts about the other wiki farm. [22:23:59] I mean its more than likely miraheze wont close, i would say practically 80% chance at this point and im still pretty confident that precent should be higher [22:25:09] Welcome back to Miraheze, Hispano76 šŸ‘ [22:25:15] (Edited for clarity) [22:44:28] <.labster#0000> Zppix is 80% behind me [22:46:48] <.labster#0000> Most of our problems are solvable once people calm down enough to try to solve them. There's no huge intractable problems, just the things all nonprofits of our type deal with: volunteers, motivation, and money. [22:48:41] <.labster#0000> I hope that out of this near-miss, we at least come out with a more motivated community. That's the silver lining to a large and regrettable cloud, but I do think it's valuable. [23:03:26] I should clarify that i was talking about an eminent shutdown [23:13:51] <:screm:933475687677984778> <:Gar_sad_s:893010306010320896> [23:17:38] I don't know what the emojis means. Miraheze is going up. [23:18:48] Iā€™m gutted that Mirahezw is going down. It was the best wiki farm. [23:20:13] aren't we all [23:22:53] [1/2] Not sure if you've been keeping up with things, but there is a community-led effort to transfer ownership and continue operation. [23:22:53] [2/2] Nothing set in stone yet, talks still need to be had and papers need to be signed, but there's a reasonable chance that end of service may be avoided. [23:23:10] Iā€™m crossing my fingers [23:32:17] An update on my wikis regarding the communication issues and other things [23:51:18] [1/2] happens when i try to search [23:51:18] [2/2] only happens with some words [23:57:53] That's a support issue. It can happen for different reasons