[00:04:11] guys, is it me or are all Miraheze projects suffering from errors? [00:05:14] Its all wiki's [00:05:32] Update on some files [00:06:23] oh good to know its not just my wiki not displaying text [00:07:01] I get strange characters ⧼⧽ instead of normal text [00:08:39] Yeah my wiki looks broken but I can still do editing [00:09:53] Sometimes I get a 504 error in any project, other times I can edit although those strange characters continue to appear [00:10:28] the text not displaying is fixed for me now [00:14:42] how long does it usually take to get a wiki approved? [00:19:28] personally i kinda dig the aesthetic [00:19:52] i can fw this [00:20:42] I believe that you can opt for that in your settings... if I'm not mistaken [00:20:56] very nice, i won't do that [00:20:59] :3 [00:21:33] ok this would look really cool on someone's personal github website or whatever [00:22:47] Mine seems to be fixed [00:22:53] ah well this is a bit difficult to read [00:22:59] Thank you Mira team! [00:23:28] ill just. give it some time by itself [00:24:05] Nvm, some stuff is fixed, others not [00:24:21] still thanks to Mira team for everything you guys do [00:41:07] sorry, if there a faq, but i cant find it. I was wondering a bit how long it usually takes for a wiki to be approved? [00:43:09] [[FAQ]] [00:43:09] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/FAQ [00:43:15] [00:43:33] but haha usually up to a few days [00:43:44] depends but not always that long depending on who's available [00:43:55] ok fair enough, thanks [00:46:14] it's incredible how much Miraheze have grown, I remember in summer, it took 10 seconds lmao, but it's really deserved that it has become so much bigger, [00:53:14] let's be victorious over fandom we will beat it one day [00:55:29] hola @agentisai [04:35:49] /auth [04:45:10] bye [04:54:35] Hi all - a new RfC is now live regarding the potential reorganization of Miraheze as it currently stands. Please feel free to vote and comment as you wish: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Reorganization_of_Miraheze [04:59:30] Please note that the above RfC is open until December 31, 2023 at midnight EST. Whichever proposal receives the most votes will be approved by the Miraheze Limited board and adopted - please vote, your voice matters. [05:00:02] Mind if I copy this verbatim to #announcements? [05:00:20] Absolutely [05:03:25] Just shocking it's come to this. Hoping everyone that can vote, does. [05:04:10] Posted [05:04:35] Much appreciated - now we wait 😅 [05:06:00] Perhaps a global notice would be in order? [05:06:20] Ah already being done [05:06:59] Yep [05:07:24] I could post a notice on MH social if that would be helpful [05:07:33] That would be great [05:15:59] @orduin have one quick question if you have 30 seconds in DMs? [05:16:16] 👍 [05:17:12] sent [05:18:11] Also posted a copy of the announcement to twitter, if anyone can still be found there [05:21:36] posted to all socials that I have access to (X, FB, Threads, Mastodon) [05:22:31] the hell [05:23:27] Hi all - update to this: Supports will be counted as 1 vote, opposes will be counted as -1 votes, and abstains as 0 votes. That way, there's a mathematical decision when it closes. [05:23:53] I'll update on-wiki, if someone wants to note on announcements as well. [05:45:36] How do I change stuff in the top bar on pages so I can add links to additional subpages? [05:46:37] wdym by top bar? [05:46:46] what skin are you using? [05:47:15] Vector legacy [05:47:39] And the bar that lists "Page, discussion, etc." [05:48:38] you can hide some of these button via CSS, but adding something will require JS [05:49:01] How? [05:50:36] custom java scripts must be provided on MediaWiki:Common.js page, as for actual coding - I can't help [05:54:25] What's that? It came out of nowhere. [05:56:11] I'm sorry but I have no idea how to code that in [05:56:22] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407504500136607745/1187556792599838770 [05:56:35] I have little to no experience in JavaScript [05:56:43] same tbh [05:57:04] you either learn it, find ready solution, or ask someone who can do that for you [05:57:26] maybe someone else can drop you an example [05:57:36] Thanks. [06:02:13] is there a significant difference between "strongest" opposition/support and simply bolding your comment? it is kind of confusing to have all these options when they don't seem to affect the actual voting process [06:02:16] How do I change stuff in the top bar (pictured here) on pages so I can add links to additional subpages? [06:02:55] He said to use JS but I have 0 idea how to and I no experience in it either [06:03:03] There isn't practically speaking, but it's a way for people to stress their emphasis in their vote [06:03:17] this is a #tech-community question, but I also have no clue [06:03:41] you're going to have to ask a person with the `CSS/JS Support Volunteers` role [06:03:51] Alright [06:07:14] tech community is wrong venue man [06:07:22] we have #support forum [06:07:31] but it's too late, I guess [06:09:40] that's fair. I mostly mention this because it was proposed as a strictly mathematical vote, and having the ability to emphasise your vote while it being ultimately worthless to the actual proposal feels a bit misleading [06:10:24] we've had sss, ss, s, ws for a while now, and it's a bit accustomed for users to use it [06:10:36] fair enough, I'm relatively new as far as getting involved is concerned [06:10:39] it never actually serves a purpose as counting it for more than one vote [06:10:40] no worries [06:11:11] I just have more to say because it is such a big request on such a short notice at a time when a lot of people are probably about to ignore everything wiki-related because it's the new year + x-mas [06:11:41] I wouldn't say it's necessarily worthless, it just depends on how close the votes wind up being. If there is something with a clear majority of support, then the individual levels won't matter. But if there are two with roughly equal support, but one mostly weak, while the other is mostly strong, then there is still a clear winner. [06:11:43] I was told it was more of a tax thing - 2024 comes, taxes are required to be filed in the UK with that, and it'd be preferable not to [06:12:18] this also can hold - it's mathematical but for whatever reason there's a tie in points counted, we could probably look at strong supports/weak support [06:12:58] that's fair, I guess I also took the fact that it was emphasised to be purely mathematical that it genuinely would be that if it were like, 1 vote off, people would just shrug and say that's what the people voted for [06:13:17] considering how shutting down the entire org is one of the options, that feels like a bad idea [06:13:17] I mean [06:13:34] that proposal seems unlikely to pass, so that won't be a problem [06:13:50] oh yes, I just think it's worth saying that it is in the literal text of the proposal [06:14:00] ah 1D, yes [06:14:13] to be fair - that's how it would probably happen [06:15:02] it's being counted by points (+1, -1, 0), and if it's a winner by 1 vote....that's probably how it would go, but that's also up to the closer to determine for sure [06:15:34] quite honestly, looking at the options, it feels overwhelmingly that C will win without any contest, but I just feel on edge about the situation since it's so short notice [06:15:51] like even if it's the right choice, being asked to make the right choice on short notice is a big ask [06:15:56] that's fair - it was unexpected [06:16:11] there's 10 days, so it's not exactly short notice to be fair [06:16:29] It's understandable [06:16:37] I'd be happy to answer their concerns however [06:17:56] to be fair, I wouldn't consider it that short notice in most circumstances, it's specifically the fact that it's at a standard deadline everyone uses that makes everything extra stressful [06:18:10] people are away on holiday, everyone's trying to get everything done before january, etc., just another thing added onto the pile [06:18:58] like totally understandable, just stressful [06:19:05] I can say that that was taken into consideration for sure - but it wasn't incorporated into the RfC given the urgent nature of the task [06:19:21] normally there is no closure date on RfCs, in this case, an exception was made [06:19:49] yeah, I just think there's a reasonable middle ground between infinity time in the future and a week, lol [06:19:58] but deadlines exist, so, there's not a whole lot you can do [06:20:14] yeah, it is what it is [06:22:49] agree [06:23:03] holidays aren't the best time [06:31:06] can't the RfC be extended though? i'm sorry if i sound a bit naive but i'm new to these things and would like to know more [06:31:36] It can, yes [06:33:25] i've read the comment over at 1C. it seems like something happened back in June this year? [06:34:04] yeah, there were some events [06:34:37] which costed a lot of nerves to a lot of people running wikis here [06:34:55] but luckily it was resolved [06:36:05] i suppose it's a big combination of management and financial issues [06:36:18] finances weren't a problem [06:36:20] mainly management and burnout [06:36:25] it was drama [06:36:25] finances are quite strong actually [06:36:57] a combination of the db141 issue, March 'breach of trust' scandal, and the T&S service ban on a user [06:37:02] [1/2] i see. i said that because i saw this excerpt: [06:37:03] [2/2] For example, one huge point of contention was Miraheze's financial state. As part of the SRE team, we were quite worried about finances and the fundraiser. Our server bills had recently been doubled which meant that money was bleeding out, very fast. We had just had one of our most successful fundraisers ever but we were still very stressed. [06:38:16] [1/2] actually speaking of which [06:38:16] [2/2] what would the 1C proposal entail? i know that it says merging, but is miraheze merging with WT, or the other way round? and may i know what effect it would have on us running wikis at miraheze? [06:38:45] Miraheze and WikiTide would merge but Miraheze wikis would be unaffected, there'd be nothing any wiki admin needs to do [06:38:56] WikiTide wikis would be moved back to Miraheze though [06:39:26] and policies? [06:40:05] i believe that was mentioned [06:40:06] Policies are largely the same as on Miraheze, except for the Content Policy, which limited permitted wikis while the process of charity status was in review so that they could assess what sorts of wikis are allowed per tax guidelines. If a merger is approved, Miraheze's policies (including Content Policy) will prevail. [06:40:29] this sounds vague to me [06:41:40] [1/3] but then if that's the case, i have a question about this part: [06:41:40] [2/3] Policies are largely the same as on Miraheze, except for the Content Policy, which limited permitted wikis while the process of charity status was in review so that they could assess what sorts of wikis are allowed per tax guidelines. [06:41:41] [3/3] what does this mean exactly? [06:43:00] it perplexes me that tax guidelines can limit the scope of wikis even when the wiki farm is a nonprofit (which i assume WT to be) [06:43:58] Miraheze policies wouldn't change at all [06:44:23] in the U.S., you can only be declared a charity if you meet certain requirements [06:44:57] we weren't sure if the tax service would allow us to host certain wikis but they did approve our scope which covers most wikis [06:45:28] i see, thank you for the clarification [06:48:11] [1/3] also, regarding donations to MH/WT [06:48:12] [2/3] proposal 1C states that donations to WT are currently tax-deducible since WT is a public charity. the proposal also states that if this merger gets greenlit, MH will inherit the public charity status of WT. [06:48:12] [3/3] if i wish to donate to MH then, assuming that this option will be the one going forward, should i wait until the completion of the merger, and does it affect anything if i'm located outside of the united states? [06:59:27] [1/4] Agent can speak to that in more detail, but: [06:59:27] [2/4] * Any individual can donate to WikiTide/Miraheze, provided they aren't a resident of a sanctioned country [06:59:28] [3/4] * Tax-deductible status for charitable donations only applies to taxes owed in the United States, unless your country has local laws that allow for deduction of foreign charitable contributions. [06:59:28] [4/4] * Donations to MH LTD prior to transfer wouldn't be retroactively tax deductible, to best of my understanding, but I won't advise you on where to put your dollars today. [07:10:49] i see, thank you for the detailed explanation. i'll take a look at local laws then. [07:27:15] [1/2] Just going to point out here that if there is enough of a demand from the community, we can push back the end date of the RfC. There's nothing formally stopping us from doing so, it just might make things a bit uglier for taxes and other bureaucracy. Also going to state that I will only approve at most one extension, and not longer than two weeks unless there is a very good or very vo [07:27:16] [2/2] cal reason to do so. [07:45:30] okay just making extra sure; joining forces with wikitide would still allow all current miraheze wikis to exist? miraheze people would not be subject to WT/WF's stricter policies? [07:45:55] yes, no policies would change [07:46:03] in fact, WikiTide would adopt all Miraheze policy [07:46:13] and WikiForge has no say in WikiTide either way [07:46:17] okay, cool [07:46:53] because one of the wikis I admin for contains nsfw stuff that could prevent it from being approved for WT [07:47:09] should be fine, our scope is wide [07:47:21] WT's policies were stricter while tax code was figured out [07:47:31] i'll probably abstain from the RfC until I have more info and see more opinions, but for now that's a relief to hear [08:12:13] Nesu [08:39:58] Just to clarify - Jan 1st wasn't a "hard deadline" it was a minimum deadline for tax purposes. Completing a full tax year so close to the end of year makes financial sense - plus even if a decision was made at Dec 31st 23:59, it wouldn't be in effect Jan 1st anyway so Miraheze Limited would start the new tax year regardless. [08:40:27] Donation money obviously going to a fantastic cause with the genius of moving to a brand new wikifarm that is ran by what feels like robots. Trust me I am being sarcastic. [09:06:03] fo rthe voting thing, do we just edit the page [09:06:27] yes, in the appropriate section [09:27:32] "We also want maximum accountability by the community which is why some of us will not be seeking an appointed position in the Board but rather, an elected one which is subject to reconfirmations yearly." [09:27:44] https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-revenge-of-the-sith-sw-rot-s-gif-19761348 [09:28:53] is there much doubt that 1C (merge with WikiTide) is the best option [09:30:12] how does WIkiTide compare to Miraheze? [09:32:27] custom domain already seems cool [09:32:57] hm it seems new actually [09:33:03] 9 June 2023 [09:33:38] If WikiTide is already on it's way to carry on Miraheze's torch and burn it brighter than before, then why not merge? [09:33:52] that's an if though [09:33:55] idk prior context [09:34:04] yeah, it started when a large chunk on Mira volunteers left Miraheze causing shit down panoc [09:34:13] WikiTide is ex Miraheze [09:34:27] and eventual rescue by veteran volunteers [09:34:44] My concerns around WikiTide resolve more around its financial and legal aspects in all honesty [09:34:52] how so [09:35:03] Because the same people operated a paid service [09:35:15] That was used to fund the initial start up [09:35:41] sorta Jimbo situation w/ starting Wikia? [09:35:57] No [09:36:09] Because it's effectively the same people [09:36:26] It's more about making sure WikiTide can never be exposed to issues at WikiForge [09:36:36] I need to wake my legal brain up [09:37:28] I know it's workable but it's making sure I'm happy with it in my head [09:38:23] is that bad though [09:38:38] as long as the wikis themselves are free [09:39:12] I mentioned this before, but there's little reason to funnel into into non-profit [09:39:26] I would gladly enable ads on my wiki if it means supporting Miraheze [09:39:50] unless there's a law or something that requires Miraheze to stay non-profit for the sake of being "charitable" or something? idk [09:40:02] @kojobailey if it's done right, it's fine [09:40:10] yeah, if it's done right [09:40:12] and works out [09:40:16] If it goes wrong, it opens both sides up to legal and financial risk [09:40:36] I don't want WikiTide ever being liable for WikiForge's error [09:40:46] what did WikiForge d [09:41:00] oh teyc ost money [09:41:49] that won't happen though [09:43:15] idk man i just question the sustainability of relying on donations [09:43:51] no ads is a main, basic principle of Miraheze [09:44:00] it's been over 8 years [09:45:19] i was talking optionally [09:45:34] as a new user, idrc about 8 years ago [09:50:51] it's a deal for old users [09:51:16] so have choice ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [09:51:23] and one might say to those who are leaving fandom nowadays [09:51:47] maybe not per wiki, but per user (disabled by default) [09:52:04] it's basically donating [09:52:16] except you don't have to actually pay anything (i got nothing) [09:52:29] last but not least - ad companies enforce their deals [09:52:52] one of the reasons we had had mass shutdown of fandom wikis in 2021 [09:53:22] what does that mean [09:53:49] censorship, agendas, you name it [09:54:59] wiki.gg is a unique novelty case, their ads are from their parent company [09:55:12] roughly speaking [09:55:43] they're no better than Fandom with all their restrictions on skins and extensions [09:56:01] that's my main issue w/ them actually lol [09:56:12] #FoTheLoveOfGames seems like a direct rip of Fandom's "for the love of fans" [09:56:16] there's very little control [09:56:21] but we talk about ads [09:57:57] I haven't witnessed Gamepedia in its heydays, but ngl I was underwhelmed when I tried to understand wiki.gg, I've experienced something more free than Fandom [09:58:27] i'm confused at why wiki.gg is being so used [09:58:34] Terraria's official wiki is now on there [09:59:07] They have a specific vision of curated wikis, and are developing an advertising network that appeals to smaller developers to both get their game noticed and reach interested parties. [09:59:30] Not everyone's cup of tea, but an interesting business model in my view. [10:00:01] a business model largely focused on forking fandom wikis, but hey if it works. [10:00:08] anything is better than Fandom, I suppose. [10:00:15] there's no i suppose [10:00:38] Yeah, mix of emigrees and new growth, but definitely skewed on that front at the moment. [10:00:51] and Terraria wiki [10:00:58] https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1152088410740228096.webp?size=48&name=yasubruh&quality=lossless [10:01:04] I'm interested to see how they modify approach if/when they hit saturation. [10:01:30] [1/3] yeah [10:01:30] [2/3] and a regular fandom admin won't notice an issue, maybe only w/ the fact that bureau group is reserved for staff and they'll have to reach them to add new sysops [10:01:31] [3/3] I more experienced wiki admin would prefer more freedom [10:03:18] more issue if a newbie starts a wiki from scratch, same like on Miraheze - no templates, etc [10:03:24] Yep, though if your intended market is less community-driven and more developers who may not know much about wiki, I suppose I see the merit in highly-centralized control [10:04:02] e.g. give CSV, dump game data and create pretty pages without needing to actually know how to wiki. [10:04:54] i'd prefer if they focused on teaching wiki editors how to wiki [10:05:16] otherwise you get wikis for great things stuck on less desirable hosting [10:05:33] like Terraria wiki [10:06:28] correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main reason is that some people behind wiki.gg directly work on Terraria Wiki [10:07:08] after all it initially was on Gamepedia, just like Zelda Wiki, Wowpedia, Minecraft Wiki [10:08:04] Warcraft folks migrating second time is still mind boggling [10:08:30] good for them but man, they sure need luck w/ SEO and stuff [10:08:54] fighting two old wikis on Fandom [10:09:43] wiki.gg devs are previously Gamepedia that quits Fandom after Fandom buys them [10:10:12] I'm currently competing against of Fandom wiki and archived Gamepedia wiki, both showing up high in result despite being dead for years [10:10:40] and both labeled as official wiki when dev studio disbanded in 2017 lol [10:10:51] hm [10:11:00] competition between wikis of the same topic will sure be on the ris [10:12:09] there were some concerned about the merge between Miraheze and WikiTide resulting in less options for wiki hosting [10:12:17] but like [10:12:21] if that one option is good [10:12:41] I don't see any "less options" here [10:13:14] it's just one less option, that being the choice between Miraheze and WikiTide ig [10:13:32] i wonder if this is good or not [10:13:44] if it's good to have multiple wikis covering the same thing, but on different domains [10:14:05] [1/4] Well, I only see the 3 things: [10:14:05] [2/4] Almost free: Miraheze and WikiTide [10:14:06] [3/4] Less free: wiki.gg [10:14:06] [4/4] Jail: Fandoom [10:14:06] it's def wasted effort from both parties [10:14:24] Free but paid: WikiForge [10:14:32] Free: Self-hosting [10:14:33] Telepedia [10:14:36] it's like [10:14:55] Miraheze w/ ads [10:15:13] are we looking at the same thing [10:15:14] https://telepedia.fandom.com/ru/wiki/Телепедия [10:15:18] nope [10:15:31] it's Original Authority's baby lol [10:15:42] i can't find it on google [10:15:47] tfw fandom interferes w/ actual brands [10:16:08] funny [10:17:04] I recon that "free" as in "freedom to do whatever you want"? [10:17:11] Yes [10:17:43] You can actually changes config (and internal codes of MW) of your wikis [10:17:51] As long as it is safe [10:18:02] Only self-hosting provides unsafe options [10:18:14] mb [10:18:15] But most people don't really want that option btw [10:18:41] i want the option of self-hosting [10:18:46] i just don't really have it [10:19:38] although self-hosting is a big commitment [10:19:57] the only advantage self hosting my wiki would give me would probably be file sharing, but knowing how niche the topic is and how passive the community is, I just know that there's no way I'll get donations to run it lol [10:20:06] Yep, but it's way too risky especially for someone new to wiki world [10:20:31] when will Wikipedia unleash its own free wiki hosting [10:21:04] I'm not even sure if I'll ever get new editors, might be the sole contributor till I die lol [10:21:45] They aren't wiki farm, just the one that creates the wiki software [10:21:52] depends on the wiki ig [10:21:53] how big it is [10:22:05] JoJoWiki moved from FANDOM to self-hosting, and it's doing great [10:22:10] but it's also huge [10:22:23] because JoJo popular asf lol [10:22:25] I'm competing with a Fandom wiki in which all of the content is copied from my wiki, how ironic. [10:22:26] they themselves are a wiki though [10:22:52] i imagine a Wikipedia union [10:22:56] where wikis are interconnected [10:23:01] Wikimedia [10:23:05] actually, that'd kinda be soulless [10:23:05] that's Wikimedia [10:23:29] they sure like doing that [10:23:41] really annoying [10:24:05] should have slapped NC licence? <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> [10:24:13] does that work though [10:24:19] Yes [10:24:31] I have it under CC BY NC SA [10:24:31] new Megami Tensei Wiki started from scratch w/ NC [10:24:41] the aforementioned JoJoWiki still has issues with the fandom wiki copy-pasting [10:24:50] but who's going to go up against fandom [10:24:59] that's because of default licence [10:25:12] but from Pizza Tower Wiki experience [10:25:34] fandom itself doesn't favour plagiarism because license requires attribution [10:25:55] and attributing a forked wiki is a big no for them, cus forking policy [10:26:26] so they "happily" rollback copy pasting if reported [10:28:36] it shouldn't just be rollbacked, ideally the revisions have to be deleted from the history [10:28:57] and the perpetrator should be banned after repeated violations... [10:29:14] force them to stop wasting their life on stealing other people's work [10:29:29] [1/2] I haven't seen them doing that lol [10:29:29] [2/2] funny thing is that google can see links in history [10:31:30] yeah copyright stuffs is something that's not really well-known among a lot of people (even high-ranked admins) [10:32:06] I'm not even sure if fandom staff can hide revisions [10:32:23] like, local sysops can't [10:34:04] and you can't confront fandom over it? [10:35:06] I confronted them and asked that it be removed, and that annoying Kimberly said that because they have attributed it they can't do much about it; and I rebuked them, citing that the content must be relicensed under the same license if they are going to play that game, and she just closed the ticket. [10:36:22] there is something wrong with commentstreams, it shows placeholders all over the place. [10:38:00] check second to last #announcements [10:43:39] is it possible to redirect the `.miraheze.org` domain to a custom one for SEO? the miraheze one appears higher in search results and I'd like to 301 all the pages [10:43:52] is that possible? [10:45:21] I'm kinda worried about if Miraheze merges with WikiTide [10:45:50] That will probably leave one remaining major alternative to Fandom [10:45:58] Miraheze is still Miraheze after the merge [10:47:46] or would a rel canonical work? [10:48:03] oops wrong reply sry for the ghost ping [10:49:15] [1/2] I can answer this but it's really complicated. [10:49:15] [2/2] And with the current mess of MH's wiki code, custom domains won't get the sitemap on Google [10:49:25] (at least as I'm tested) [10:50:01] Or whatever reason Google SEO is bugged hard [10:50:07] alright [10:50:41] You can redirect any .miraheze.org domains to custom one but that's require phab ticket [10:51:08] ok I'll create a ticket, thanks [10:51:19] redirect can be set in search console too? [10:52:09] well, to be fair it's hard to consider WikiTide a major alternative in these 6? months it exists [10:53:43] WikiTide don't really even exist on Google as it is too small [10:53:59] compared to MH's foundation of many big name wikis [10:54:08] [1/3] when people ask about alternatives I recommended 4 hostings - Miraheze, wiki.gg, Telepedia and WikiTide [10:54:08] [2/3] 2 of them started only in 2022, WT in 2023 [10:54:09] [3/3] wiki.gg this year very much has become a major alternative to the point fandom blocking its links lol [10:55:55] [1/3] before 2022, what we had? [10:55:55] [2/3] Mira and probably Wikidot, thanks to D&D and SCP wikis [10:55:55] [3/3] fextra is hated as much, of not more, than fandom [10:56:18] Gamepedia was biggest alternative to Fandom until it got devoured [10:58:06] the small wiki foundations like Bulbapedia or StrategyWiki are old too, but seem to be as obscure as Miraheze, I legit thought all indie wikis are 100% self hosted [11:00:09] These 2 wiki farms are way too low-tech thus obscure [11:04:02] You know what we could see happening in the future? Other smaller wiki farms getting taken over and then merged into bigger wiki farms. [11:04:16] It's already happened with Gamepedia & Fandom [11:04:40] Miraheze & WikiTide can't be bought by Fandom [11:04:53] wiki.gg low chance [11:05:05] Obviously I wasn't talking about Fandom [11:05:33] Well, I'm already Fandom goes down hard these days [11:05:49] Especially big wikis moving from Fandom [11:06:28] can you name other small wiki farms? [11:06:54] I don't see merging happening the same way as Fandom devoured Gamepedia [11:07:03] Fandom is a whole ass corporation [11:07:06] I believe wiki.gg don't allows small and niche wikis [11:07:45] and in regards of Miraheze and WikiTide - they are so similar [11:07:55] WT started by former Mira folks [11:07:57] like [11:08:06] it's kinda of getting back together [11:12:22] If a small wiki want to start without Fandom these days, MH and WT are the only 2 choices rn [11:13:45] If anyone votes option D I will slap them [11:14:42] pff [11:16:20] Option D is still better than losing data permanently [11:18:05] [1/2] Last time there's an incident with MH that cause data loss [11:18:05] [2/2] And I believe that's how WikiTide exist [11:18:42] you mean the db141 disaster? [11:18:46] yea [11:19:01] was data really lost? [11:19:08] Yes [11:42:04] We are never ever being brought out by Fandom. Never. [11:43:23] we didn't start this place up only to be brought out by fandom. This is an alternative to fandom. I dunno where the rumours began about the only reason we're incorporated in the UK is to stop fandom from buying us came from. It's not true. [11:45:24] I'm really not sure where this theory has come from as being in the US as opposed to the UK does not in any way make a Fandom "sale" likely at all. That is definitely not why Miraheze was incorporated in the UK in the first place. [11:56:31] @Site Reliability Engineers The bug still persists if the language setting is set to Japanese [11:56:42] hmm [12:05:37] link pls [12:07:13] [[mh:tanukipedia:]] and [[mh:taisakuwiki:]] [12:07:13] https://mh.wikipedia.org/wiki/tanukipedia: https://mh.wikipedia.org/wiki/taisakuwiki: [12:07:14] [1/2] [12:07:14] [2/2] [12:11:06] @kiju1108 do you have a link to a page having the issue [12:13:46] you may have to clear your browser cache [12:14:48] [1/2] oh the bug had been fixed:) [12:14:49] [2/2] thanks [12:16:03] [1/2] works fine [12:16:03] [2/2] https://taisakuwiki.miraheze.org/wiki/%E7%89%B9%E5%88%A5:%E6%9C%80%E8%BF%91%E3%81%AE%E6%9B%B4%E6%96%B0 [12:18:21] Option D is better than A [12:19:29] Is it? [12:20:35] B and C are the only truly viable options though, so kinda pointless imo to talk about which of A or D is least bad [12:23:20] I mean personally, degraded service is better than nothing, although the existence of wiki tide complicates it [12:23:26] Im go comment on RfC [12:24:07] If you weak support and strong support smt else will only the strong be counted or will the weak also contribute? [12:24:47] Well degraded for now maybe, but A would most likely lead to a D like situation in the long run anyway, as that is not sustainable in the long run, short of an actual miracle happening [12:25:32] Also I love how Em explained the situation with the this is fine meme [12:29:16] it seems like the weak/strong thing has no meaning [12:30:18] Btw guys anyone know if there’s a way to add fandom like maps https://hypixel-skyblock.fandom.com/wiki/Map:Hub to Miraheze? (I hate linking to fandom here don’t excommunicate me please) [12:32:03] from some discussion earlier in this channel, it sounded like if there is a tie between options the level of support may be considered, but otherwise no difference yeah for this one [12:36:08] I believe there's an extension, but can't say which exactly [12:36:35] I’ll look in Manage Wiki in that case [12:36:44] Thanks Legroom [12:36:54] Weak is also count but not being as weighted as much as strong one [12:38:15] I think imagemap is the closest [12:41:45] We just started and it looks like C is snowing ngl [12:54:04] [1/3] As far as I'm looked, C is likely the safest option. [12:54:04] [2/3] A and B option look like a time-ticking bomb that could results D. [12:54:05] [3/3] And A is likely worse than B given the UK issues. [13:01:25] A is deferring the inevitable [13:01:46] B is an attempt at new life [13:01:50] C is merge [13:02:19] D is throw in the towel [13:02:43] My vote will likely be C, B, D in that order [13:03:27] I don't have confidence that A will lead to Miraheze's survival unless there's any indication of significant change [13:03:50] A has no plan [13:04:45] My opinion is about 50:49:1 in terms of C,B,D [13:05:59] I’d say C B A D [13:06:39] A will only lead to D in my opinion [13:06:49] I know people prefer to save the farm [13:06:52] 99% better than 100% [13:07:03] But keeping it on life support is not a good option [13:07:18] @pixldev it is 100% imho that A leads to D [13:07:36] It just increases the chance that it's uncontrolled [13:07:43] And reduces certainty for users [13:07:47] Which isn't fair [13:11:16] Why is it so damn hard to comment on an RfC without overriding someone else’s edits [13:15:15] Lack of proper discussion tools [13:25:15] I’ll just do it in multiple edits [13:26:33] I did that [13:26:40] I made my comments on A and D [13:26:56] B and C: I am waiting for WikiTide team to wake up and answer a DM [13:34:51] In 13 hours C already has 25 supports [13:35:04] Only other thing close to that is 15 against S [13:38:23] is the "new users aren't eligible to vote" rule still applies? [13:38:35] I am the only person to have said D is better than A [13:38:36] new as in like, couple of days [13:39:07] maybe, yes. [13:39:22] Prior to 04:50 UK time today [13:39:34] Btw nice to see you all again. [13:39:59] I'm cooking stuff so may need some help [13:40:44] Some of the accounts was registered before the page was made? [13:41:43] While that may seem overwhelming, it is probably the easiest one to just straight up vote for, for those that thing that is the best, any one that prefer any of the others probably will take more time to make sure to get a proper comment and thougts along their vote [13:42:01] True [13:42:28] Still hope for the best result tho [13:42:44] The qeustion ofc is what the "best result" is 😉 [13:43:23] So on either the middle options would there be more people help do stuff around here? [13:43:39] B is slightly more debatable [13:43:53] C undoubtedly [13:44:38] Not hating or anything just noticed stewards responses n whatnot are tad slow atm since well aint as many people [13:44:48] So was curious if there would be any realistic change [13:45:22] Yeah. I appreciate what they do but multiple week waits for responses to simple questions and requests is not really okay :/ [13:45:58] Agreed [13:45:58] Still waiting on a simple check on some sockpuppet accounts from early november that i ping in the thread for every so often [13:46:22] So yeah C will have a lot of old folks come back to fill the slots. B will require new people to step up to fill the slots instead [13:46:41] Which is why A is unsustainable [13:46:52] Undoubtedly [13:47:03] Unfortunately when there is only one active steward, responses can take quite awhile, especially when they have many other responsibilities (board, SRE) [13:47:08] How are the other options different though? [13:47:45] I perhaps have a warped perception as my idea of being 'active' is signs of life in this server [13:48:11] But based on that I have concerns about some of the proposed new board members [13:48:48] My concern is that, truthfully, 3 of these options appear to be the same thing to me [13:51:36] Which 3? A and D I would consider the same, but B and C are both different from each other and from the A/C. I suspect A and C is mostly there to cover all options really, even the obviously bad/unsustainable ones, so noone can say they didn't give a wide enough range or option or something like that [13:52:50] I've been so concerned about the status of Miraheze since June, and it felt like it became frozen despite some parts of the site has gradually started to chip away. [13:58:05] I would think most people who have kept an eye on the wider MH community would feel something similar to that for sure. [13:58:38] You mean about what I just said? [13:58:46] Yes [14:01:34] [1/7] C is the only one thats different in my opinion. I'm not advocating for C to be clear. [14:01:34] [2/7] It's my concern that A, B, and D will not differ in output even if the respective inputs (or lack thereof in the case if D) are different. What does swapping a couple people that don't appear to be significantly more active (if I'm wrong please show me, would honestly inspire a lot of confidence on my part). A and B just push off the (current) eventuality of D. I dont think A le [14:01:34] [3/7] ading to D is a controversial statement, the site has been limping along for a while and already nearly shuttered 6 months back. [14:01:35] [4/7] As for B, that's not a particularly large team already, and even if they were particularly active, they'll burn out with a small group like that. You can't operate something at this scale indefinitely with so many responsibilities concentrated in the hands of such a small groupbof people. [14:01:35] [5/7] Do they have a plan for training or finding more staff? How do they spread out responsibilities or mitigate against inactivity and burnout? [14:01:35] [6/7] I think it's awesome that people are stepping up to the plate, but I think regardless of choosing A,B, or D, the end will be D, even if it's postponed by selecting B. [14:01:36] [7/7] C is icky 😭😭😭 [14:04:16] I'm most curious about what Zppx and Labster plan to do differently that will keep us from having to evaluate closure again. If there's some concrete actionable plan they take strides towards, then I'll be singing a very different tune [14:05:50] B may be more uncertain than C, it is not a guaranteed D, the same way A is. Part of the current issue is also NDA's due to transition period we been in is hard to sign, making it almost impossible to get high trust positions like stewards filled, but C is more safe for sure, but some might not trust the some or all of the old folks coming back that way after what happened [14:07:15] Are there people capable of filling such roles actively being prevented from doing so by the NDA issue though? [14:07:38] Or is this more of a general problem? [14:10:24] [1/4] I'd have to ask why this migration has taken so long if so. If I'm not mistaken, the decision was taken 6 months ago, no? [14:10:24] [2/4] Complex legal issues certainly take time to resolve, and this is all volunteer-driven anyways, so certainly a high degree of leeway timewise must be afforded. [14:10:24] [3/4] But it's been 6 months :/ [14:10:25] [4/4] How much pressure could there have been from (desperately-needed) aspiring staff blocked by NDA issues under the current organization for it to not have happened? [14:11:20] I think we've got some great people running this place, but plain and simple there's not enough of them currently, and there won't be enough in any of these proposed outcomes [14:11:25] alright i finally voted [14:14:42] yo man [14:14:50] Yes [14:16:26] sup [14:16:34] Bonjur [14:16:58] i think the only option i was confused about is option b [14:17:17] what would the benefits of that be? [14:17:31] I love how half the rfq is bold [14:18:03] This is encouraging 🙂 [14:19:05] Yeah I'm in a similar boat. I'm curious about what benefits there would be and what plans there are of what to do differently. This NDA issue being resolved is a pretty big plus though [14:19:14] Option b is new management [14:20:28] gotcha [14:26:41] Already at 31 C Supports WOW [14:51:34] doesn't surprise me [14:51:46] with hwo it's phrased, how could we not all vote for it lol [14:57:56] So true bestie [15:12:05] Ouch [15:12:06] Anyways [15:12:16] Are some people still request private wikias? [15:17:35] yes [15:43:29] [1/2] Another UniversalOmega takeover bid. Now with more "mask off" in the sense that Wikiforge isn't even a part of the nonprofit foundation nor is it subordinated to it in any way. How woefully unsurprising. See my comments from the last time here, where I predicted it would be like this [15:43:29] [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Premium_offerings_(in-house_proposal) [15:46:33] i wish the turbulences end at last because I have a pending donation but there is still looming in horizon convertin in a pay service which is contrary to my idea [15:46:47] Hi - comments in violation of the GCP and/or MSCoC will not be tolerated. Please keep your comments respectful at all times. [15:49:06] [1/3] Hello, I wanted to dowload my (private) wiki's dump and encountered a 'Database error': [15:49:06] [2/3] > A database query error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. [15:49:07] [3/3] > [02f4043bed1b27c43e796d12] 2023-12-22 15:47:21: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError" [15:50:21] @Site Reliability Engineers question [15:50:44] link pls [15:51:36] what is GCPMSCOC and how is this a violation of that? [15:52:04] Global Conduct Policy and/or the Miraheze Spaces Code of Conduct [15:52:35] This discord isn't a place for people to insult others, as the comment was meant to do [15:52:39] Hope that helps 🙂 [15:52:40] how to say that this is a another takeover try is a violation of GCPMSCOC or disrespectful? [15:52:49] https://misplaced.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:DataDump [15:52:53] thanks! [15:53:11] couldn't find any insult still [15:54:08] It might come off as conspiratorial in nature but it's ultimately up to a platform moderator to decide here [15:54:40] I would ask all members to remain respectful. There have been comments made by the user on-wiki that are borderline violations, and so I'm asking they don't continue to this platform. That's all. [15:54:50] It's up to a moderator of course. [15:55:20] best to leave it to them to decide [15:55:21] I fully agree with him to the point I won't donate a $ to miraheze if the C options comes alive. We can critize that option or we can't? because I haven't seen any insult whatsoever [15:58:33] With both options, a new company takes control [15:58:58] a Foundation is not a company in the full sense [15:59:41] but that is not the point. My point was that we must be able to voice our opinion without being accoused to be insulting anyone [16:00:26] How is my messgae "disrespecful" in any way? [16:05:49] Could someone explain what A and B options mean? [16:06:00] I understood C and D [16:06:17] A would be "keep everything the same" [16:06:33] [1/2] A - same as right now [16:06:33] [2/2] B - continuation of process carried by new Miraheze team started in June [16:06:49] B to clarify a bit more would transfer assets to the US [16:06:53] the process being moving org from UK to US [16:06:59] So would C [16:07:00] And have a new board consisting of Labster/Zppix [16:07:08] Ah alright [16:07:26] Of course - but they already understood C so I didn't need to elaborate there [16:07:39] And Void [16:07:51] Labster/Zppix/Void [16:08:15] Could you clarify on the current/June situation with Miraheze? [16:09:13] Basically a wave of resignations lead to the decision to shutdown by the board, which then caused myself, and labster to work woth Void to start a plan to prevent that from occuring [16:09:27] Thats the cliffnotes [16:09:53] Alright [16:10:14] [16:10:23] also a good piece of supplementary information [16:10:28] Thank you [16:12:58] This is a really good response. I draw attention closely to the comment that this RfC could've, and should've bren called by the new board a long time ago. [16:13:11] ^^^^ very good read [16:13:34] Raidarr has always had a good way with words. [16:13:44] 💯 [16:19:25] Don’t currently have time to read the whole thing but skimming it do seem insightful [16:23:24] Why would you want to give up and shut down the best wiki farm there is? [16:23:39] ok, seems like I'm not the only person who is suspicious of Deem [16:24:03] Hm? [16:28:26] I agree with you on this. Will voice my opinions on the rfc after i get home [16:29:23] Why would you want Miraheze to shut down? [16:29:51] Brad, please [16:30:03] keep emotions at minimum [16:30:07] 😭 [16:30:24] Sorry! [16:30:40] [1/3] It's not a statement in support of shut down. [16:30:40] [2/3] Much more a comment on how the status quo is. [16:30:41] [3/3] How miraheze operates now is far from optimal. There's a lot of constraints that are outside of people's control that result in this to be clear [16:31:31] I wouldn't mind the shut down since there's other options [16:32:04] you tell this to over 4k established wikis? [16:32:13] some of which have no options, in fact [16:32:16] To some extent - yes [16:32:18] We have over 8000 wikis [16:32:21] Over the status quo [16:32:21] other than self hosting [16:32:31] WikiTide, Fandom are both options [16:32:35] 8k because we haven't dropped the DB [16:32:37] Telepedia, Wiki.gg, selfhost [16:32:37] I personally have been using this service for the last 5 years and its generally been pretty solid. I've explored other hosting options, and this one is definitely one of the best [16:32:40] I’d rather not have to generate 8000 dumps [16:32:41] oh, you forgot [16:32:45] Fandom is insultingly bad [16:32:52] Fandom lol [16:32:53] Fandom is terrible agreed [16:33:00] you forgot what Fandom did in 2021? [16:33:02] but it's an option I suppose [16:33:07] I had a visceral reaction when I read fandom I'm sorry [16:33:09] No - did I miss something [16:33:12] oh wait i do remember [16:33:13] slightly [16:33:39] So just WikiTide [16:33:45] Point being - Miraheze is not at a stable state in its current form. [16:33:59] This^^^^^^ [16:34:05] I will not vote for a shutdown, but when faced with a status quo? Shutdown is probably better. [16:34:19] My line too yeah [16:34:51] If new administration has concrete ideas im voting for that, otherwise wikitide merge seems alright [16:35:04] [1/2] The status quo is unreasonable to expect to continue in its stable form - Miraheze will just die one day if nothing changes because of the lack of resources. A controlled shut down is better. [16:35:05] [2/2] my 2c [16:35:18] but I would vote for 1C personally (and have) so [16:35:29] The merge is the most likely outcome since it is currently +37 support [16:35:43] Yeah it's at 37 points right now, the next closest is at 7 [16:36:06] you'd need 31 B supports or 31 C opposes, which I'm not sure those are going to be got [16:36:47] merging was always the only way to guarantee that Miraheze survived imo [16:38:21] [1/3] Mainly for a small majority [16:38:21] [2/3] I am aware that others can't due to stricter policies, accessibility, etc [16:38:22] [3/3] Couldn't elaborate earlier due to being in the middle of shopping [16:39:07] Me handling 90% of SRE requests and Void handling 99.9% of steward requests for sure is not sustainable [16:39:11] the atmosphere here, in June, was horrible [16:39:24] yep [16:39:33] Really appreciate what you guys do by the way [16:39:35] I never want to see this again [16:39:56] part of why I would say a shutdown is better than status quo [16:40:13] dude 🙃 [16:40:49] 🙃 [16:40:56] yes i'm aware it's doomsaying [16:41:03] it won't happen though, either of them [16:41:06] so that's a good thing [16:41:06] why always when we are both in convo my statements get misunderstood [16:41:17] Shutdown is -22 points [16:41:21] oops [16:41:23] Shutdown is -23 [16:41:43] [1/5] Current ticker is [16:41:43] [2/5] A -18 [16:41:44] [3/5] B 7 [16:41:44] [4/5] C 37 [16:41:44] [5/5] D -23 [16:41:50] how did I misunderstand? [16:41:58] I'll put my vote later, but I think I'm preferring C [16:42:15] We just got a 2nd support so -22 [16:44:23] For shutdown? [16:44:31] Yes [16:44:35] wow [16:44:45] ^ [16:45:55] whats the limit on signiture length cause in seeing some signatures that seem a hell of a lot longer than what Meta let me put in [16:47:07] Okay those are support ifs really so makes sense [16:49:03] Some people put a template call to a userspace template in their prefs and put the full sig in the template [16:55:12] fixed [16:55:39] [1/2] then just... don't say it? Lol ? [16:55:40] [2/2] i am very confident nobody here appreciates the doomsaying [17:16:50] D is better than C [17:19:48] C is still shutting down miraheze but its way more disingenuous about it. [17:22:33] That is simply not true. [17:23:17] My thoughts about the whole team getting back together again [17:23:29] So awesome if it works out [17:25:44] C is still Miraheze but moving from unreliable hardware to the cloud [17:26:20] And WT offers cheap cloud you can rely on [17:28:20] Both option B and C shut down Miraheze Limited and transfer operations to a U.S. based company [17:28:28] but with both options, operations won't change [17:30:45] You forgot to say Miraheze Limited ≠ Miraheze [17:31:16] Indeed, Miraheze Limited is just the company that represents the service in legal matters [17:32:12] We're collapsing. The ship is bobbing up and down in the water about to sink. [17:32:48] Can someone tell me what to type so I can vote [17:33:39] I want to strongly oppose D and strongly support C [17:33:44] How do I type that? [17:34:25] Press "edit section" under the appropriate section and at the bottom, on a new line, type `#{{Support}} Your reason here. ` [17:34:25] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Support [17:34:35] Replace support with oppose or neutral depending on your stance [17:35:15] Don’t forget ~~~~ at the end! [17:35:53] okay, i really havent been in here since the june fiasco but if i'm remembering correctly wikitide was made by some former MH staff who are some very not-so-good people, so merging into them seems like a very odd choice. correct me if im wrong? [17:36:38] ELI5: The team behind WikiTide is the former MH staffs who are burned out due to mostly the MH's hardware issues [17:36:47] not all of them are inherently bad people from what i have read up on [17:36:54] Ty [17:37:14] maybe some are? but the short of it is, a lot of it stemmed from a lot of issues that lead to a lot of em leaving in june [17:37:39] making a whole new platform to get around hardware issues just sounds like inviting new and worse hardware issues lol [17:37:41] Specify, not so good? [17:37:47] Boy I Sure Love Doomposting ! [17:38:30] Like you disagree with their worldview or are they murderers and Nazis? [17:38:37] woah dude [17:38:47] bruh [17:39:31] This is the Internet and I don’t know these people at all [17:39:35] [1/2] That's not the whole picture. Those volunteers were burned out due to a variety of issues like the db141 incident, the March 'breach of trust' incident, and the June Trust and Safety incidents. The last issue was what broke the camels back as they saw it as deeply unfair/a product of gaming the system and as there was an impasse with management, they resigned [17:39:35] [2/2] as they felt they weren't able to get anywhere [17:39:37] Are they far right or something? [17:39:43] i do agree rin should elaborate but jumping the gun is not helping anyone [17:40:20] It was just an honest question. I asked two extremes to get her/him to answer. [17:40:27] nothing like that no [17:40:32] you can say they it's okay [17:41:00] No, I like mine better [17:41:14] way to assume genders then ! [17:41:33] OK this is totally off-topic [17:41:49] i am just saying. you could be more respectful and mindful [17:42:22] Oh yeah, I’m so disrespectful because I didn’t assume their gender and used a compound [17:42:24] [1/2] Also this is to fix MH's biggest weakness. [17:42:25] [2/2] It's still the same software as you know, just different hardware. [17:42:38] fellas [17:42:57] referring to people with "her/him" is gendered. i am simply saying you can say "they" until they clarify as it's gender neutral. i am trying to be respectful about this. [17:43:24] If anybody ever assumed they could call me “they,” I would find that very disrespectful [17:43:29] But again, this is completely off-topic [17:43:34] that's you [17:43:41] Can we not, please? [17:43:43] Thank you. [17:44:06] Or move it to #offtopic [17:44:37] So back to my original question, who are these people who left Miraheze and now want to come back? [17:44:43] Or do they even really want to come back? [17:44:57] nah, just helping hands [17:45:14] I'm one of them - we're trying to saving Miraheze. [17:45:47] OK well you have my vote and the preliminary results looks like you’re going to have the total vote [17:45:47] We left due to an extreme level of tension and stress within volunteer ranks. Those tensions have dissipated and we're now trying to avoid a downfall. [17:45:56] Seems that way [17:46:08] So the URLs are going to stay the same? [17:46:15] Yes [17:46:21] Coolio [17:46:34] tbh I forgot what role you even had [17:47:00] me? [17:47:05] BWM was Meta patroller and interwiki admin [17:47:23] yep [17:47:47] OK well I guess y’all have saved the day [17:48:09] hopefully [17:49:58] i won't engage further, sure. i just personally don't stand for transphobia via refusal of using a gender neutral pronoun. that's just my stance and i shall leave it at that [17:51:19] I'm not exactly sure what happened - I came online and I saw an argument over pronouns and what should be said. I would ask that all peoples' pronouns and gender affiliation are respected, regardless of what they may be. Let's leave it at that. [17:51:29] 👍 sounds good to me [17:53:02] It's the reality [17:53:15] maybe yours but it ain't to others [17:53:26] doomposting is not helping anyone especially yourself [17:54:39] If it's reality, it's the same for everyone [17:54:52] We have an insanely large backlog in all areas [17:54:57] my reality is not the same as yours lmao [17:54:58] That is not sustainable [17:55:11] it's not, you're right! that doesn't mean MH WILL shut down [17:55:25] saying "oh mh is going to shut down it's over" is like. helping nobody. it's not addressing any problems [17:55:40] My comment on the RfC gives you the solution [17:55:45] it does not i think [17:55:52] It says my belief is that only B are C viable options [17:56:18] All I've said is that if B or C don't pass that I don't think A is viable and will eventually lead to D [17:56:33] and that's fair but what's with the shutdown talk then [17:56:39] FWIW, this just seems responsible? [17:56:40] I would agree here - and A will be a much less clean shutdown than D [17:56:55] I will totally respect pronouns if I’m told them. @superkirbylover was overreaching [17:57:01] leave it be man [17:57:33] "This is my third choice. I'd much rather B or C become successful but in the event they fail and there is no viable solution then we have to eventually accept the inevitable. In the event that B and C fail, it will be our curtain call and time to take our final bow. " [17:57:40] Is my exact comment on D [17:57:52] Which is exactly my reasoning [17:58:15] Yeah, I agree completely with you there. [17:58:18] I don’t want our pages to go into the void. Like I’m sure they’d be on archive.org but that’s not the same [17:58:43] again, that's fine, but like... you're focusing very much on D for someone who says you prefer B and C. and it's okay to want to consider other options in case things go wrong but then i see comments like this and its. Is That Really Necessary Dude [17:58:54] that is the point i am making [17:59:11] i think it's insightful to hear that from someone on SRE, personally [17:59:15] Someone pinged me to ask a question about my comment. I answered. You accused me of doomsaying. [17:59:47] cause it sure sounds like it to me lmao [17:59:47] C is prob the best but im just worried about fandom... [18:00:20] Someone asked me why I'd want to shut the farm down. I said because my opinion is that at the moment the ship is basically sunk and we can't continue unless something changes. [18:00:37] Saying we need to change something because this isn't working is not doomsaying [18:00:51] that comment did not read as "we need to change something" [18:00:55] Right but they’ve given us a path forward [18:00:55] that reads as "we are fucking dying" [18:01:17] i should clarify. i understand the intent but it still comes across as doomsaying. [18:01:21] that is my issue [18:01:27] Fandom would buy wiki.gg before us [18:01:51] Yes and I will be indicating my preference between B & C once @agentisai answers my questions I've asked them [18:01:52] I’m gonna be honest I didn’t have the mental capacity to give ample thought to option B before I voted [18:02:02] Which are those questions? I must've missed your pings [18:02:03] dosen't matter if fandom tries to buy us. It'd be rejected. [18:02:07] And assuming they clarify the points I've raised with them. I'll likely support C [18:02:12] Is option B realistic? [18:02:23] i know for a fact almost everyone here is a certified fandom hater (based) [18:02:26] It's higher risk. It's possible though. [18:02:35] Maybe but that will cost a lot of money + risk [18:02:48] a yea [18:02:54] Well, I’m a bit risk adverse, so I’m gonna stick with C then [18:03:09] <34.29cm> Since option D is included, people will discuss it, and there's no way for it not to sound negative unfortunately [18:03:36] that is fair but i do wish people discussing D would not talk about it as if MH is shutting down like Right Now [18:03:38] Technically you can vote "support" for all 4 options [18:03:49] "ahhh we're doomed!!" Nuh Uh We Have Options [18:03:53] ew [18:04:11] I pinged you again [18:05:59] <34.29cm, replying to superkirbylover> [1/2] I think its inclusion in and of itself is anxiety inducing. I said as much in my vote on the page - most people are going to oppose it, so there could have been a smoother explanation that "since A is so risky, you might want to consider that something such as D is an option". I'm not like. Morally opposed to the fact that it was listed the way it was tho [18:06:00] <34.29cm, replying to superkirbylover> [2/2] ugh or anything [18:06:36] As things stands proposal C would mean Miraheze merging into WikiTide (the company) whilst Miraheze (website) continues to run and WikiTide merges into it and Miraheze moves its infrastructure. That's how i understand things. [18:06:58] Board members on Miraheze will join WikiTide [18:07:14] Yes, that is correct [18:08:16] [1/2] Proposal C >>>>>>>>> [18:08:16] [2/2] All the other options will result in a shutdown when one or two key individuals burn out that the whole house of cards relies on, some just delay it a bit [18:08:34] WikiTide also have someone with experence (Harej) [18:08:45] WikiTide website merges into MH website? [18:09:09] yeah i think the way its worded on the site is fine, its just people interpreting it [18:09:10] Luna! [18:09:17] KITTYYYY!!!!! [18:09:27] yes, i think that's how i understand it [18:09:27] how about the subdomians? will it be miraheze or you can select them if option C works out [18:09:39] actually yeah what about subdomains [18:09:41] that's right [18:09:42] that's a good question [18:09:46] yes [18:09:53] Subdomains won't change for the foreseeable future [18:10:26] Yeah, I already asked [18:10:29] so wikitide users will have a wikitide sub domain? [18:10:33] trixie [18:10:41] So miraheze.org and wikitide.org would both be round? [18:10:52] No, they’ll be square [18:11:07] Oh [18:11:16] Octagonal, in fact [18:11:20] I thought they’d be dodecahedral [18:11:28] <:NOOOOOO:833774868553793549> [18:11:34] What we might do is allow wikis to pick the wikitide.org subdomain if they want and point their miraheze.org subdomain to the new domain [18:11:39] but wiki subdomains won't change [18:12:04] So it’s chose if you wanna have a tide or mira url? [18:12:09] yes [18:12:20] url change is always a negative hassle [18:12:29] Also if the legal entity will be WikiTide, will there be an eventual name change? [18:12:31] I hardly can imagine someone wanting to change [18:12:39] Miratide [18:13:00] If you set up proper 301 redirects, it shouldn't affect SEO and should work fine [18:13:02] Hey all the other alternative are much worse [18:13:09] the issue is when wonky redirect methods are employed [18:13:14] 301 my beloved [18:13:25] I believe for the foreseeable future it’s WikiTide dba Miraheze [18:13:32] That's likely it [18:13:39] Dba? [18:13:44] doing business as [18:14:03] also what if two wikis have the same subdomain on mira and tide [18:14:14] that'll be solved manually [18:14:20] a lot of factors will be looked at [18:14:27] also will interwiki prefixes that I always forget the format for link between tide and heze? [18:14:46] yeah, they'll work as normal [18:15:04] Will all wikis from Mira be allowed to stay under Tide or will some wikis due to certain topics be banned from Tide? [18:15:05] what was it mh:wikiid:namespace:pagename? [18:15:17] will there be another interwiki for tide urls [18:15:24] yes [18:15:34] We keeping the Heze content policy [18:15:34] all currently existing wikis won't see any changes [18:15:36] iirc [18:15:42] yep, that's it [18:16:07] Thank you, more curious for others, helps me understand where everything is going. Also good to see you again, missed you and some of the others who have left [18:16:13] MH and WT have mostly same Content Policy [18:16:22] just no Reception or Roblox wikis [18:16:27] Yeah [18:16:40] I think the difference is mainly with NSFW topics [18:16:54] lmao [18:16:57] Actually being an US, you are free to do any topics [18:17:06] wiki.gg also dissallows roblox wikis [18:17:13] UK has lots of NSFW restrictions [18:17:19] why it's so freaking funny [18:17:53] roblox are mostly toxic kids [18:18:24] grrrrr we hate roblox1!1!1 [18:19:11] I thought other way around? [18:19:42] Will the WT and MH discord servers both be used? [18:19:57] everything will be folded into this server [18:20:53] K [18:22:07] GOD that's hilarious [18:22:20] I’d guess we’ll somehow merge MH + WT meta and commons wikis [18:22:38] i would love to see a wiki on roblox as a flatform in general, outside of the fandom one (which, as per fandom wikis are, Suck) [18:22:47] you better not nuke my infobox guide like it happened when templates wiki got merged into dev [18:23:27] We'll probably stick with Miraheze Meta and Commons [18:23:58] as most policies are the same, there won't be much that's needed for salvaging [18:24:34] We would probably import the images from WT commons onto MH [18:24:51] It's not a lot of photos [18:24:54] Mainly just the logo lol [18:26:09] Will Central Auth be linked somehow? [18:28:40] I kinda like it [18:29:06] That would probably be the aim but that would be at a later time due to the complexity [18:32:08] CentralAuth would be fun to merge [18:32:17] Because account collisions too [18:32:54] You'd effectively have to do what Wikimedia did [18:33:25] Easiest would be to take a list of accounts + emails [18:33:29] Diff them [18:33:50] And then rename the conflicts on one side [18:34:03] Probably have to pause account creation for a bit [18:44:28] a few months ago I saw someone discussing the creation of a proper dark mode extension. anyone know anything about this/progress? [18:45:50] Whats wrong with inverting colors to the ugliest shit my screen has ever showed? [18:45:58] fair point! [18:46:46] i just use the extension; dark reader [18:47:13] If you find a good one pwease tell me [18:55:02] I have had butterflies fluttering around in my stomach ever since I saw the RfC, even though many people are supporting Option C and opposing Option D. Not a good feeling during the holidays; how do I get the butterflies out (stop being anxious)? [18:55:55] Not one solution [18:56:08] I don't really get the need of having D as an option. I mean, warning people about the eventual risk of the site going down IF the other options don't work in the end is fair, but it should be considered just a mandatory plan of contingency no matter what. I don't think anyone actually invested in their wikis would vote for D, we all want to keep them alive. [18:56:36] Just take heart in the fact everyone is supporting C, and if all goes well, Miraheze will be reunited with some of its old and talented volunteers [18:56:53] Plus moving to more realible infrastructure [18:57:07] So the question is which option seems the most likely to succeed on keeping things working and stable [18:57:10] OK thanks! I am also trying breathing exercises like “The Box Method”, something my therapist taught me. [18:57:15] Oh? [18:57:19] would we able to make roblox wikis after the merge (i have a roblox wiki) [18:57:47] Cause if other options lead to a shutdown it would likely be abrupt and uncontrolled [18:57:59] D allows us to at least ensure a stable shutdown [18:58:07] and give out datadumps [18:58:35] That's why I say that controlled shutdown plan should be already in place no matter what [19:00:07] There's no one in the current team trustworthy and sensible enough to got that covered just in case? That would be frankly dissapointing [19:00:15] I don’t understand why anybody would support it [19:00:16] What does WikiTide have against Roblox? [19:00:30] Idk I’m totally out of the loop on this thing [19:01:24] Some of the most toxic enviroment [19:01:41] *One [19:01:43] Anyway, I didn't like how things developed last year with all that wikitide thing but now it seems like the most sensible way out, unless people involved in B give us some reassurance [19:03:26] This discord blocks wiktide•org ?? [19:03:33] no [19:03:40] what if you say we wont let random users edit [19:03:40] its cause you not verifed [19:03:49] you need to verify your MH account to send links [19:03:57] https://wikitide.org [19:04:08] use /auth [19:04:58] Unless you give them a good reason, it's really hard to pass [19:05:28] (But a former Roblox-based wiki that is from MH should be fine) [19:05:48] Should I create an account on WikiTide even though a merger with Miraheze is likely? I am afraid that there may be conflicts based on my username. [19:06:25] prob dont do it. they said that wikitide will move to miraheze [19:07:31] What would happen if I had the same username on both? [19:08:06] not sure im guessing they would send a email to change your user [19:08:09] or smth [19:08:20] On the off-chance that [REDACTED], I know where to go! [19:09:19] did something happened w/ embedvideo extemsion? [19:09:29] CentralAuth gonna be a hassle regardless [19:09:33] resolution of vids got messed up [19:09:33] maybe make it a weeeee bit different [19:10:00] i cant seem to see where they dont allow roblox wiki [19:10:07] on wikitide [19:10:29] Did someone on the board have a bad experience with Roblox or something? [19:10:57] That's not banned on WikiTide [19:11:01] On the off-chance that [REDACTED], I know where to go! [19:11:10] as stated, regardless, the Miraheze Content Policy will apply [19:11:27] so there's no need to look at the WikiTide Content Policy which will soon be outdated [19:12:10] I’m sure AllTheTropes has a plan in case [REDACTED], but at least I know where to go! [19:12:31] ah okay so for short you will still be able to make roblox wikis [19:12:56] prob a higher change of accepting if you have wiki already? [19:14:27] I know which plan will most likely win and have my alternative, and one of the AllTheTropes admin says that they can self-host the wiki if needed! Now I will leave before any more doom posts happen. [19:14:41] Well WikiTide is way too bureaucratic. [19:14:52] I tried spending a few weeks there and failed miserably. [19:15:33] Any suggestions on how to improve? [19:15:44] I'd like to think we're going in the opposite direction but I do think some things can be streamlined [19:16:24] I have faith in the wikitide folks. Worked with most of them while here ans never had a bad experience <:EpicFaceMH:912930767972225095> [19:17:46] Hope to not let you down 🤞 [19:21:02] one vote away from 50 supports on option C! [19:21:16] unless you count againsts [19:22:26] Against is -1 [19:24:19] The results are fairly as expected [19:24:22] Tbh [19:24:45] Apart from D not really being shown as an alternative to uncontrolled [19:38:25] I for one welcome our new WikiTide overlords (really hope I don’t regret writing this) [19:41:01] Think of it as welcoming back our old Miraheze overlords(this is gonna age great) [19:41:49] they will sell out to fandom in a few years [19:42:13] Which option did you choose then? [19:43:38] controlled shutdown [19:43:46] oh f that. Why? [19:43:52] it's self hosting or nothing [19:44:16] Being a positive Polly, not a negative Nancy [19:46:31] They won’t, for one wikitide is a non profit so fandom legally couldnt make money from it [19:46:33] Its fandom [19:46:36] no money [19:46:40] no fucks to give [19:50:37] everything can change, wikitide always had a profit goal hidden in its agenda [19:51:20] certainly not true [19:51:47] it's unfortunate the goal to help ensure a more financially stable farm is being interpreted as a conspiratorial plan to cash in on the farm [19:53:17] WikiTide does not provide any income to WikiForge [19:53:40] money, money, money [19:53:41] WikiForge has been used to provide cash injections to the non profit side where reasonable [19:53:56] must be funny, in a rich man's world [19:54:07] The best example my head can come up with at the moment is lawyers doing pro bono work [19:54:15] To compare to [19:54:51] It's also worth noting that with the 501c3 status, misuse of funds can mean jail time + we're not talking about large amounts of cash here. The incentive is minimal and private inurement is so onerous that what you're suggesting just... really doesn't make sense. [20:02:45] <.labster, replying to bartleby0> Can I be an Indifferent Ira? [20:04:51] Legally… no [20:06:26] You may [20:06:45] But if this blows up both sides will attack you. Just like good old politics [20:07:49] <.labster> Yep, plenty of politics happening here. By the way, vote for me! I promise wikis and circuses for everyone! [20:14:49] "I promise to make all wikis act toward the betterment of human civilization" - quickly turns into a gundam villain speech [20:14:56] <.labster, replying to moskyx> D is by far the better option than A in the volunteer perspective. Like, it’s not even a contest. Things are really broken, and it’s best to acknowledge that and let people plan for what’s next than to let things continue. [20:19:28] <.labster> Obviously there are two better options available [20:27:02] I’m not voting on A nor D because I don’t like them [20:27:08] Oh wait [20:32:32] A isn’t really an option [20:35:07] [1/2] I voted on C: +4 [20:35:07] [2/2] and on D: -4 [20:41:47] TY! [20:53:30] I don’t think the level of support is considered in the final tally [20:53:56] Really?? [20:54:12] Tmk [20:54:22] not sure how support if works [20:55:14] I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t use the amount of support [20:57:04] cause why would anyone use anything other than strongest if it meant their vote would count for more [20:57:19] <.labster, replying to paladox> A is primarily an option because in votes you really need an option to say "no I don't agree to anything" [20:57:50] <.labster> It's more a parliamentary point than anything. Void and Owen are free to withdraw either A or D. [21:02:54] It will be counted if it's close [21:03:08] There's no explicit weighting [21:03:12] thanks [21:07:24] [1/4] So, A is basically a no-go and that was clear since June, as those people mentioned basically announced the end of the platform (or their involvement in it) for their justified reasons. And D is, as I said, just a controlled shutdown which shouldn't be an option to choose but just a normal contingency plan to have in case operations can't go on anymore for whatever reason. Seriously, [21:07:25] [2/4] I think the people currently involved in the US migration should speak up more clearly about the issues they are facing and their plans for adressing them. And while I get this is a volunteer thing and a community driven project, I'd wish everyone involved were a bit more mature about the way they discuss things. This a service you're running here for many people who aren't either s [21:07:25] [3/4] avvy or intersted in those issues, and you all should give certainties to your users, including actually meaningful choices with enough information. And I don't see that. If A and D aren't viable options, if all you need is a "I don't agree with B or C" then offer just that option. Don't confuse people into believing A is an option, when it's not, and just work on being ready for D ju [21:07:25] [4/4] st in case. [21:09:09] Can anyone tell me why the rosettacode.org pages hosted on Miraheze are currently unreachable? Did somehow the DNS addresses used to get to those pages get lost or corrupted? [21:10:08] That's hosted on WikiTide. I already contacted the site administrator to inform him of how to fix the DNS issue as it's only something he can do. [21:11:00] thank you very much. [21:11:27] I'd have to talk with Owen, but from my perspective, either B or D are more 'status-quo' than A. [21:11:38] yeh [21:11:42] B is not status quo [21:11:59] <.labster> It kind of is, Void stays on the board, Miraheze stays separate. [21:11:59] A would be carry on and fail at unknown time [21:12:06] D is fail now [21:13:14] <.labster> No one seems to have come up with any other options to add. [21:15:31] I haven't seen anything else suggested [21:15:58] I think the issue with A and D is the explanations are poor on what they mean and the impact [21:16:40] <.labster> That's fair, but I was getting time pressure to put it out, and I was hoping some questions would improve the RFC. [21:17:02] I did review it before you posted [21:17:16] But I didn't expect users to not get it [21:17:40] <.labster, replying to rhinosf1> I think I want this saying framed on my wall. [21:18:11] <.labster> Like maybe as a cross-stitch sampler. [21:19:31] lol [21:20:50] We should have it as merchandise [21:20:56] On a Miraheze store [21:23:09] Depending on price I may buy that [21:23:26] Depends on how awesome the designs are ngl [21:24:07] I'd be quite happy to send Miraheze merchandise if enough users wanted it [21:24:42] The only annoying thing is Royal Mail don't do tracked mail without pre printed labels [21:24:53] oh? [21:25:20] Don’t suppose anyone here is a graphic designer [21:26:12] "Miraheze" in comic sans is sure to sell [21:26:15] very good design [21:27:29] <.labster> I definitely have always wanted the Miraheze tote bags. Though Wiki Tide's wave would look pretty great on a T-Shirt. I'd feel like aquatic Superman. [21:28:18] Amphibious wikihosting apparel ftw [21:28:30] Basically means I'd have to queue at the post office for longer rather than use a qr code [21:29:02] remember how I proposed to make a mascot [21:29:12] and everyone ignored 🥲 [21:29:43] International postage is meh though [21:30:24] <.labster> I must have missed the mascot discussion, because I'm down with that. As a Japanophile I think every company should have a cute masukotto. [21:31:00] [1/2] ordered a deluxe box set thing for over 70 pounds in 2020 - corner got fucked [21:31:00] [2/2] was too lazy/expensive to send back and ask for another [21:31:32] Oh? [21:31:36] Would be cool [21:31:46] it was roughly 2 years ago lol [21:32:16] In another server today I was just ranting about Wikipe-tan after I remembered she existed cause someone sent a picture as a joke [21:32:19] lmao [21:32:55] I'd love to see what you'd come up with. [21:33:12] A pattern of hexagons maybe mixed some with the MediaWiki logo could be sick [21:33:19] it was a be in some kind of Megaman outfit [21:33:23] I probably lost the sketch [21:33:29] or orange gold circit board lines [21:34:09] [1/3] Perhaps there should be some clarification added with respect to the voting algorithm used for the recent announcement. On the RfC page it is suggested that voting for multiple candidates is an option, and then each vote can be given four different kinds of support. From Wikipedia: [21:34:09] [2/3] > First-past-the-post voting (FPTP or FPP) is an electoral system wherein voters cast a vote for a single candidate, and the candidate with the most votes wins the election. [21:34:10] [3/3] Since this description does not appear to match the voting options given, what is the algorithm that will be used for processing the numerous voting options provided for this RfC? This should probably be specified on the RfC page. [21:34:16] comon guys we gotta make another RfC [21:34:33] pretty sure you uploaded it somewhere on here [21:34:41] basic addiction and subtraction tmk [21:34:48] yeah, in a thread, but like [21:34:57] are threads permanent [21:35:05] they archive [21:35:09] dont delete [21:35:23] What channel? This one? [21:35:32] I suspect we'd have to charge like £10-15 for a tote bag [21:35:38] [1/2] found [21:35:39] [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/901057109951647754/901161511408500789 [21:36:26] Which kind of vote constitutes a "subtraction"? Each of the votes given in the RfC are in the form of "support", which I imagine would not be subtractive. [21:36:28] huh [21:36:54] Support is +1, Abstain/Nuetral is +0, Oppose is -1 [21:37:13] So the score for each is #supports - #opposes [21:39:27] [1/2] Hi everyone [21:39:27] [2/2] What is an RfC? [21:39:32] So we are using something akin to score voting then, with the added option for negative votes? [21:39:36] Request for Comment [21:39:39] Ah okay [21:39:41] Request for comment [21:39:43] Yes [21:39:45] thanks [21:40:12] they gotta name? [21:40:47] I like it, might personally go with a humanoid design but uh cant draw for shit so [21:40:53] If possible, it should be mentioned on the RfC that score voting is being used, since first past the post is not being used. At least, not in a way that's compatible with typical descriptions of it. [21:42:31] Was gonna say didn’t really get why it said that [21:43:33] @void_slayer. can you change it to say smt like “Highest total by cutoff date” instead of first past the post? The latter implies the winner to be the first plan to reach X amount of supports [21:44:13] ngl I think it's pretty clear reading it now [21:44:28] Can never be too clear [21:44:35] Specifically, the total of (number of supports) - (number of opposes), if indeed that is the algorithm. [21:45:05] yeah, accounting for strong and weak support if its close enough [21:45:10] Though I do have one question: How do I vote? Like, if I want to vote in favour of option c, do I have to go to options a and b and put whether or not I support those too? I've never seen a voting system like this before, so I'm a bit lost, sorry [21:45:14] fair [21:45:56] When you Google "first past the post" the description on Wikipedia appears to be immediately incompatible with the voting options given in the RfC. [21:46:58] idk, seems pretty much in line to me- the option with the highest score (rather than a majority) wins, no? [21:47:13] You can optionally do that and oppose those so as to ascertain that they don't pass but it's not required [21:47:39] click edit, and add `# {{support}} Your reason ` below the last vote [21:47:39] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:support [21:47:40] Ah, okay, thank you! [21:47:44] under the support section [21:47:47] thanks a lot (: [21:48:05] you can also set level [21:48:10] we couldn't think one so eh [21:48:17] ie {{support|strong}} [21:48:17] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:support [21:48:25] First past the post requires each voter vote for at most one candidate. [21:48:31] ah [21:48:41] Marvin Von Herenheim [21:49:00] So how many people were there before WikiTide and how many left for WikiTide [21:49:08] vaugely adepted from Miraheze [21:49:13] plus von [21:49:14] Is it true? They were only two left on miraheze after [21:49:15] cause [21:49:17] fancy [21:49:31] 🧐 [21:49:45] So, is wikitide basically just a new wiki that split off miraheze, and option c would be we go over to them but keep the name miraheze? [21:49:57] sorry guys I've only been here a month [21:50:00] You’re ignoring all the people in the organization [21:50:11] It’s run by a small group of ppl [21:50:19] WikiTide is a fork that absorbed most volunteers. Option C would reverse the fork and volunteers would come back to Miraheze along with forked wikis [21:50:28] Which one? [21:50:40] Okay, that makes sense, thank you [21:50:55] If you know git, its like merging a pull request back in from a fork after a lot of commits [21:50:56] Are you asking which organization, or which person? [21:51:04] which organisation [21:51:09] Miraheze [21:51:14] I don't know git [21:51:14] that's actually a very good analogy [21:51:24] Would people buy Miraheze tote bags for £15 [21:52:00] Its like when you form a cult but some people leave and make a new cult [21:52:27] okay, gotcha. But then the new cult is doing better than the original one, so we gotta merge the cultsagain [21:52:42] Yes. More cult is better. [21:52:47] We want all the cult [21:52:51] gotcha [21:53:06] Because the cult is tax exempt [21:53:22] Exactly [21:53:38] Amen [21:53:43] Plus child sacrifices [21:53:48] Or a religious sects [21:53:48] Of course [21:53:51] that goes without saying [21:53:56] Very important [21:54:14] To our lord and savior the wiki gods of 🔧 [21:54:18] Then, is option b like, our cult becomes tax exempt but we don't get the cult that split off from us to come back, and it takes longer? [21:54:33] No the cult becomes American [21:54:42] But, isn't that also in option c? [21:54:43] America has the best cults though [21:54:53] Yes but it’s own American cult [21:54:55] true. They had the teletubby death cult [21:54:58] with a new board of directors [21:55:03] oh [21:55:05] Pardon the fuck..? [21:55:09] that sounds... long. and complicated. [21:55:16] Lab and Zppix would join up [21:55:22] do you not remember the instagram teletubby death cult [21:55:22] All this shit is [21:55:29] No, I don’t use Instagram [21:55:34] good for you ngl [21:55:44] No im not a teenage girl with self esteem masochism [21:56:07] But you can be if you want. Personally, I identify as an elderly black woman. [21:56:13] so, c gives us more cult, b gives us still a cult but slower and not as big/ not as sure a thing, and a is just. we stay british [21:56:26] oh. I was except the girl part [21:56:31] A is a death sentance [21:56:35] gotcha [21:56:42] being british is a death sentence [21:56:49] D is an immediate controled death sentence [21:56:54] wait there's a d [21:56:58] I haven't scrolled that far [21:57:02] Yeah, shut down [21:57:10] More accurate to call it suicide but thats not politically correct [21:57:26] Yeah theres a lot of <:SupportMH:775411010583396352> for C [21:57:34] Of course it is you just can’t include the word “commit” because that implies criminality and we don’t want to shame anybody who suicides [21:58:07] 53… [21:58:24] no no go ahead that's true [21:58:29] OK, but nobody told me [21:58:33] Who left? [21:58:38] and who are we getting back?? [21:58:45] Like how many people? [21:58:48] let me think [21:58:49] okay, well, at least I know what to vote against! (a and d) [21:58:49] Agent [21:58:50] I mean at the top people at the top [21:58:57] Universal Omega [21:59:12] okay right. imma go vote [21:59:17] OK that’s two [21:59:24] It's my first time!!!! I never thought i'd vote before I reached 18 [22:00:03] RIGHT NotAracham forgot bout him(sorry my memory ass) [22:00:14] OK that’s three [22:00:32] Can we have an RfC to replace the entire electoral collage with a nation wide RfC? [22:00:43] So I guess there were five, three left and now they’re coming back [22:00:51] I'm not in the US so idk what that even means lol [22:00:59] idk the rest I wasn’t really here for when it happened [22:01:01] Reception 123 as well, plus bwm [22:01:09] So 5 in roral [22:01:24] OK, so there were seven and five left [22:01:28] BWM was with MH/WT? Didn’t know [22:01:31] And now all five are coming back(?) [22:01:40] Don't we still have two of them? [22:01:47] oh right [22:01:48] misread [22:01:50] ignore me [22:01:58] We have void and owen as board members [22:02:01] i'm jared 19 and I never learned how to read (/meme) [22:02:08] Paladox and Void in SRE [22:02:13] sre? [22:02:14] What is SRE? [22:02:17] Potentially. Volunteers are exactly that, they're under no obligation to provide their labor for free. [22:02:53] But as far as the folks mentioned so far, based on our conversations we all intend to continue with the combined entity if approved. [22:03:08] yayyy [22:03:20] Okay, off to the polls, bye guyssss [22:03:28] And why do the five want to come back? [22:03:36] because we rule obvs [22:03:37] [[Tech:SRE Volunteers]] [22:03:37] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Tech:SRE_Volunteers [22:03:38] [22:03:38] love reusing this gif [22:03:38] they miss us [22:03:56] Site Realibility Engineers [22:04:03] oh cool [22:04:12] They like the ghost buster [22:04:17] coooollllllll [22:04:18] but instead of ghosts [22:04:24] its production going to hell [22:04:26] I feel like it’s the exact opposite [22:04:27] can I have your autograph then, NotAracham? [22:04:32] PFT [22:04:41] They left. Maybe they had valid points. Now that it’s five against two the people who left have one. [22:04:50] There was a lot of drama [22:04:58] A database failure here [22:05:01] ugh. discourse. boo. [22:05:11] A steward being TS banned [22:05:14] Yeah, we don’t want to be annoyed with important details [22:05:21] ide wanna k what that means [22:05:23] dayum [22:05:28] Trust and Safety [22:05:34] TranSexual? [22:05:40] I still have no idea what that means [22:05:44] oh cool [22:05:44] wait [22:05:48] banned for bein gtrans? booo [22:05:48] Aracham is far more qualified to speak on this than me [22:05:51] No! [22:06:04] 🏳️‍⚧️ [22:06:08] Trust and Safety [22:06:11] I support whichever option is more trans!!! [22:06:27] voting for june dawson [22:07:10] OK, so basically the five that left, they left on principle. And now the two who stayed are bending to their principles? [22:07:14] Is that about right? [22:07:22] More complicated, will get to it, one second [22:08:24] [1/2] Since there's some newer folks here, you might find this guide helpful: [22:08:24] [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:NotAracham/Miraheze:Acronyms_and_Abbreviations [22:08:37] There's a LOT of abbreviations at MH [22:09:51] 2 left all the way [22:10:04] and don't intend to come back [22:10:17] I didn't realize we had so much jargon [22:10:37] Not... sure that's fully accurate? Not 100% sure which individuals you're referring? [22:10:49] well, within two events [22:11:15] or 3 <:ThinkerMH:912930078646730792> [22:11:25] anyway [22:11:29] i shall go [22:11:31] gn [22:28:41] [1/4] Regarding why we left to form WT, that's a story with a lot of moving parts I won't dig into in too much detail, but PixDeVl has the broad strokes largely correct -- It wasn't one specific event that solely drove the departure, but lots of smaller challenges compounding over time between legacy hardware, differences of opinion in community management, unsustainable fundraising nee [22:28:41] [2/4] ds and general morale. [22:28:42] [3/4] I won't speak for the volunteer who was removed in the event that kicked off our departure, they have done so here: https://meta.wikitide.org/wiki/User:Raidarr/Miraheze_Commentary [22:28:42] [4/4] Our aim was to build a sustainable alternative, and so far at least that has panned out. It was not easy to make that decision to depart in the first place, and the months between now and then have been a tremendous learning experience in building and operating an organization from the ground up. [22:30:23] As to why we're considering a merger at this point, the RfC point 1C makes that argument - a combined team (and hosting environment) can get more done together than either of us could alone, though WT is stable and can continue to operate independently if it doesn't happen to go through. [22:45:29] Wait damn I do? I mean uh ofc i do! [23:19:33] https://tenor.com/view/vergil-devil-may-cry-turn-around-gif-14841308259061848616 [23:33:32] Latest count if anyone cares is A -27, B 8, C 47, D -32 [23:35:13] ooh [23:35:14] very close [23:35:22] anything could happen! [23:36:42] neck-and-neck lol [23:39:46] Neck and neck about the loser yeah ;D [23:45:46] <.labster, replying to mx.lilasekhmet> Seriously, being British is so bad those people should be happy to go to Rwanda. I think that’s what Rishi says, right @paladox ? [23:55:15] <.labster> I kinda wish people had more confidence in my proposal. I’m a pretty cool guy and don’t afraid of anyone