[00:00:27] As someone who voted against your proposal, and one of the people who called for the RfC on the CN, I can assure you that you were not the one that I personally have no confidence in. [00:02:02] <.labster> I think of the lessons we could draw is that having one wiki farm for the whole nonprofit MW ecosystem is a single point of failure. Having two farms would give people a real choice and reliability. [00:03:22] <.labster> Conversely, those same six months could say that dividing the volunteers made both sides weaker, and together less reliable. [00:03:25] True, but effectively that also is not what people are getting with the wikitide merger (which is not an issue), they're getting effectively two platforms operating under two different brands. [00:03:46] I wouldn’t say it’s terrible + we don’t all support Rwanda [00:04:07] (Despite my acc name i am actually British) [00:05:06] <.labster, replying to Donald Trump> Then you’re not eligible to be President (don’t worry tho, the Supremes have your back) [00:05:31] True [00:06:41] Tbh idk what’s going on with the vote thingy, but I’m gonna have a look at it at somepoint soon [00:08:20] [1/2] I think maybe part of the issue might be that, other than getting incorporated in the US(which we will get regardless of whether it is you or WT we end up going with), we haven't heard much in terms of concrete plans on what you well plan to do after that to ensure the survival of the farm. Maybe writing up an outline on how you plan to address the issues after [00:08:21] [2/2] the incorporation could help? [00:13:03] Guys... remember cocopuff2018 somehow I got roped into running his wikis lol [00:13:19] So I make all sorts of jokes about him abusing on them in his dms [00:14:07] which proposal? [00:14:31] <.labster> The main part of the plan was always:, let’s not shut down, but have a board that actually does things. Appoint new stewards via RFC, and move towards an executive director model, overseen by a community board. Try to minimize the role of the legal board of directors to mostly just compliance and oversight. Actually run fundraisers, look for corporate grants. [00:15:26] [1/2] I fully agree on both points, in fact. A stronger marketplace is needed and a greater availability of folks with the right skills/temperments to fully staff either service is also crucial. [00:15:26] [2/2] One thing I hope for a combined MH/WT if that goes through is that we can start acting as a center of excellence/community of best practice and help get the next generation of tech folks ready to take the reins without reaching a crisis point. [00:16:14] I can't hope for a combined wikitide and miraheze if I'm being honest, Miraheze runs/ran fine with the community leadership over the board while wikitide feels completely bureaucratic and systematic. [00:16:56] I'm honestly a bit confused as to what you're referring to, the only interactions I can find is that you requested a wiki and it was granted within a few hours, and an ask for a public test wiki to be created. [00:17:06] <.labster, replying to originalauthority> And then I get votes like yours that are against the corporation’s secretary, in a model where the board delegates most of its legal authority elsewhere. [00:17:38] I became inactive shortly after given the bureaucracy there, simply put it that the policies were put too close to front and center for comfort. [00:17:53] Gotcha, thanks for clarifying. [00:18:26] <.labster> Both are too bureaucratic for me. [00:18:38] The donation banners are new and annoying to be really honest. [00:19:11] <.labster, replying to zippybonzo> Unless option D wins, get used to them [00:19:30] I prefer option A or whichever is the status quo tbh [00:20:40] I will go out of my way to avoid wikitide if option C goes through to be really honest. If it comes to it I will fork out and make a new miraheze. [00:20:44] They aren't run anywhere other than Meta, to my knowledge, but your point is taken. [00:20:49] Option A isn’t happening [00:20:53] Option A is just delaying the inevitable, as well the way it runs right now always was meant to be a transitional thing only [00:20:55] The status quo is not happening [00:21:12] Still annoying as fuck. [00:21:27] It's as bad as jimmy@wikimedia.org I mean donate@wikimedia.org emailing me. [00:21:44] I don't read my email so it doesn't affect me though. [00:22:01] <.labster> Option A won’t happen even if it wins the bote [00:22:13] So then why give us a choice [00:22:28] is it a simulation where you give us a sense of control but in reality we don't get a choice? [00:22:29] <.labster> Your right to say no on a ballot [00:23:32] Should've done that on securepoll then. [00:24:01] I also don't like that WikiTide is connected to a for profit wiki hosting service. [00:25:17] <.labster> They are completely separate organizations with no connection except donations and having the exact same members on the board of directors [00:25:26] ... so they are connected. [00:25:34] You can't just say they're not connected but then they are connected. [00:25:48] I just wanna know if we’re gonna have ads on the miraheze [00:26:00] What seems to be happening is moving miraheze to new servers and slapping a done sticker on it [00:26:03] <.labster> What? No, definitely not connected [00:26:07] That's all I interpret from this. [00:26:24] Those are some noble goals for sure, but they are also just that goals, but how are you going to achieve them? Like do you have a list of people that could be potential candidate for new stewards to appoint via RFC already, or if not, how and where are you planning to look for people that are willing? etc. [00:26:45] I also realise WikiForge is overpriced like mad. [00:26:46] That is certainly not gonna happen in a million years [00:27:14] If it does I am boycotting Miraheze [00:28:18] <.labster, replying to bartleby0> Literally no one wants ads. My personal limit is that if someone wants to pay for free servers we can give them a small static image in the footer, that you can turn off in your wiki’s CSS. [00:28:29] [00:30:35] I encourage you to look at the prices of modern competitors specifically in the paid wikihosting business. [00:30:44] <.labster> I only started All The Tropes because advertising ruined everything forever at TV Tropes [00:30:52] I can run it for about $5 with a VPS. [00:30:53] [1/5] @.labster i'm a bit distraught by two of your posts: [00:30:54] [2/5] "Unless option D wins, get used to them" [00:30:54] [3/5] and [00:30:54] [4/5] "Option A won't happen even if it wins the vote" [00:30:54] [5/5] I hope these are not examples of the "new, community focused" organization [00:31:02] Charging for open source software is wrong. [00:31:20] And I cannot see a future where a wiki linked with paid hosting could coexist with miraheze as is [00:31:37] <.labster, replying to jph2> No, those are just reality. You can’t vote away reality. [00:32:05] <:thistbh:764649024875528192> [00:32:54] [1/2] I suppose this is a distinction worth highlighting. I don't see paying for WikiForge as 'paying for the software' I see it as paying someone to manage the software for me. I'm a tech person, I could figure out how to run it probably for cheaper $ per month. But I don't know how to run it off hand and don't want to invest the time, so its cheaper (to me) t [00:32:54] [2/2] o just pay for a service in this case? [00:33:06] I could run it for essentially free [00:33:24] I deploy software in minutes with railway and it runs it for me [00:33:33] <.labster, replying to zippybonzo> Add yourself to the RFC as option E please!!! [00:33:54] ... you wish [00:33:58] Yeah, it's not charging for software, it's charging for someone to host it and debug any technical issues that may arise [00:34:06] Coming from the person who runs the service. [00:34:09] Ironic at best. [00:34:13] exactly [00:34:19] It's still overpriced. [00:34:40] It's pretty well priced over most MediaWiki focused services [00:34:47] Sure you could run the SOFTWARE, but what about the hardware, and connection to run it at good performance for thousands if not million of hits per day, and the domain to connect through etc etc [00:34:50] Clearly you've never used namecheap. [00:34:56] I can make a sandwich for way cheaper than I can buy a sandwich. Fair compensation for fair labor is fair. I elect to buy the sandwich because I don't want to make it myself. [00:35:09] Namecheap doesn't maintain your MediaWiki instance though. If something breaks, you have to debug it entirely [00:35:26] Not that hard. [00:35:34] agreed. [00:35:36] Mediawiki rarely just breaks [00:35:53] it breaks quite often [00:35:55] From observation, this just seems to be wrong? [00:35:58] rather spontaneously sometimes [00:36:13] the only time it breaks is if you touch it in the backend [00:36:19] so then why offer one as an option in a vote if you feel it's not even valid? frankly, this just feels like bullying. [00:36:21] I run mediawiki instances regularly [00:36:26] It literally does. [00:36:44] Can you give me a ballpark figure to host 1 wiki. Just want something without ads [00:36:52] if only dyno would let me run a poll [00:36:59] Poll: Do we get a choice? [00:37:28] Isn't the RfC, by definition, a choice? [00:37:35] No [00:37:45] Because they will merge regardless of results [00:38:02] No, the merge only happens if C wins [00:38:06] Options A and D are de facto remove. [00:38:19] and I don't imagine they'll go for option B because it's too much effort [00:39:06] B is a perfectly valid choice, and in fact the direction that were being worked towards the entire time so far [00:39:08] Given WikiTide are ready to merge they won't do option B and I can guess that. [00:39:15] <.labster, replying to jph2> [1/2] Because you have the right to say no in any vote. Look, I do not believe that any vote could ever make Owen’s heart grow three sizes enough to actually start running Miraheze. But you are free to try. Nonprofits are required by law to solicit donations to keep public charity status in the US, so they all do that. You are welcome to pretend that this is not the law, [00:39:15] <.labster, replying to jph2> [2/2] however. [00:39:18] Moving it to the US just fucks the already fucked up mess further [00:39:41] Owen delegated to you [00:39:47] You and others [00:39:53] you have just as much fault as owen [00:40:16] <.labster> Owen has never delegated anything to me, ever [00:40:25] I presume it was assumed you run it? [00:40:35] <.labster> Nope [00:40:44] You still could make an effort. [00:41:03] <.labster> He won’t process my NDA [00:41:05] If you care as much as you supposedly do you would make an effort would you not, rather than veto all options except moving. [00:41:09] No... it would more be that Owen agreed to keep MH afloat untill Labster could carry out the plan (which would be equal to option B in the RfC) to save it, initiated by Labster [00:41:22] Owen evidently did a shit job at that. [00:41:31] Not like owen would help with the move anyway. [00:42:04] It appears Owen has done was is legally minimally required to keep MH running. [00:42:31] Hi there - you clearly aren't in possession of facts and are instead ranting out of rage, not out of certainty. If you are interested in finding the facts, or learning, please let me know. [00:42:39] If you're just interested in ranting, take it elsewhere. [00:43:11] I do know the facts. [00:43:21] If that. [00:43:24] You do not know the facts. [00:43:27] Clearly you do not (or pretend not to) [00:43:41] <.labster> A properly running board would have done the due diligence themselves before asking others to take over [00:43:46] Really? Let's hear them, then. What are you certain of? [00:43:50] that's fair enough [00:43:51] You are living in a whole different universe [00:44:04] You aren’t the one running the place but pretend you know everything lol [00:44:10] [1/2] While fundraising is clearly a fact of life for non-profits, I'd like to know what law specifically rquires it. [00:44:10] [2/2] My comment was not really about that, but the tone of your response which basically said "deal with it" and your statement that if a particular option had majority support it wouldn't be adhered to. I find both of those disconcerting. [00:44:13] ... well owen isn't either [00:44:19] <.labster, replying to paladox> Admittedly it’s a nicer universe than ours [00:44:45] Actually - Owen's ran this company for years. [00:44:49] [1/2] 'This is a unique RFC in that it is first-past-the-post; the proposal with the most support wins. Miraheze must choose a future path. If you do support the status quo, please vote for that option below. If you see a future path not included, add it as an option on Proposal 1.' so if this is so first past the post explain https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553 [00:44:49] [2/2] 966603/1187912963898740817 and https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1187912661195821096 [00:45:02] Blaming this mess on Owen entirely is absolutely wrong. [00:45:12] Well he neglected it. [00:45:20] Else why would we be moving out of his hands. [00:45:27] Neglected it how, exactly? Please provide some examples of what he should've done. [00:45:28] <.labster, replying to bwm0> Before that I owned it because John disappeared. [00:45:50] For one, delegate some tasks so it doesn't fall apart [00:45:50] That's true [00:46:01] I need to get some sleep DM me the lowdown and I'll reply later. [00:46:10] Have a good sleep [00:46:12] staying up until 1am isn't advised [00:46:21] especially not when trying to think straight [00:46:42] What are "some tasks" exactly? Who does he delegate to with an NDA? [00:46:44] Have a good sleep [00:47:02] <.labster> I’ll take my share of the blame for today. I definitely should have been more proactive and watched the rest of my board more. [00:47:03] thinking straight is certainly not what you're doing 🧐 [00:47:03] If he gave them the NDAs then that would be ideal. [00:47:04] I hear ya, and thanks for bearing with us, every party involved has been similarly discombobulated and losing sleep the last 1.5 days. [00:47:32] ⤵️ there it's not straight anymore [00:47:43] Right I will actually sleep now. [00:47:48] The decision was made by the board to shut down operations as of June 2023. Since then, it's gone off the rails. [00:48:02] It went off the rails before that to be really honest else why would they shutdown. [00:48:03] Brandon, let zippy sleep. 🙂 [00:48:30] see you in like 7-8 hours [00:48:32] Happy to reconvene this discussion at a later time if you so wish. [00:48:50] Sleep well [00:48:50] Yes maybe not at 00:48 next time 😄 [00:48:53] ty [00:49:07] (flashbacks to yesterday when I was getting discord pings at 2AM and thinking "I can check messages just one more time, sure") [00:49:10] so, wait. some volunteers deciding to try to save it was wrong because the board decide? [00:49:15] yeah I have that feeling [00:49:27] right I was going to reply but sleep is important [00:49:29] <.labster, replying to jph2> Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3) [00:49:35] I don't get 8 hours sleep for free [00:49:53] I have done that before for other servers 🙂 [00:50:31] Filling online next year? 😄 [00:50:46] [1/2] I just feel like something needs to be clarified right now - the community is the company. But the board runs the company. At the end of the day, just like SRE has full control over what technical stuff is done to run Miraheze without the input of the community, the same goes for the Board. If it isn't financially or otherwise feasible anymore to run the company, the [00:50:46] [2/2] Board has the authority to make the decision to wind down operations, with or withou the community's consent. [00:51:07] It wasn't wrong for volunteers to try and save Miraheze at all - it was admirable. [00:51:18] But the Board wasn't wrong to make that call, given the circumstances at the time. [00:52:00] Glad to see civility from those we're discussing handing this to, even in the face of incivility from others. [00:52:00] <.labster> God, it’s times like these I really miss Cocopuff [00:52:46] I always attempt to keep my discussions civil [00:52:55] Join the WikiTide server 😆 [00:53:09] Inspires confidence from me 🙂 [00:53:35] Also I believe he's banned from the MH server, no? (He just asked for an email to appeal the ban so I'm assuming....) [00:56:25] that's a pretty big set of regulations. can you help with a specific section or are you leaving it to me to find the specific section? i guess it doesn't matter though, since there's been a sudden and clear shift in who's running things now. [00:56:28] Thanks for the kind words, regardless of outcome I hope we can find a way to incorporate as many folks as possible into whatever MH2024 ends up being. The folks involved are solid individuals, despite our occasional disagreements. [00:57:12] then i don't understand why the implication was they were running rogue. but, as i already noted, i can see there's been a clear shift in whos'running things now. [00:57:44] Confused - clear shift in who's running things? Owen and Void still run things as of right now. [00:58:03] I'm a longtime user and would be happy to volunteer if there's room for non-techy people 🥺 [00:58:40] Are additional educational resources available or is reading and being familiar with guides and policies a good starting point? [00:59:06] That's where I started (Former WC and Global Sysop, current WT Steward) [00:59:34] <.labster, replying to jph2> It’s the distinction between public charity status and private foundation status. Tax exemption for donations only comes with the former. Every org I know of always needs more money from public donations, for that status and to better serve you. And Miraheze and WikiTide have less money than most. [01:04:22] Also - just because I said it was admirable didn't mean that they weren't running rogue - they were, to some extent [01:04:42] It wasn't Miraheze Limited-sanctioned, it was its own thing for sure. [01:05:02] from my perspective, there's been a rather heavy-handed approach by the former miraheze volunteers who've recently come back and have been pushing a message. while generalities are usually inaccurate, it seems this group has raised the issue of "community decision-making" yet the comments seem dismissive. like even if an option is preferred it won't be adhered to. [01:05:03] Rogue isn't a bad thing persay.....but it was independent of Miraheze and not sanctioned by them [01:05:25] How so? What option if preferred by the community that won't be adhered to? [01:05:27] That doesn't make sense. [01:06:57] you need to read labster's comments. you and i are not going to agree. so there's no point to continuing this. it doesn't help either of us nor the community. [01:07:16] Which comments? Happy to read. [01:07:48] <.labster> (hopefully the one about Cocopuff) [01:08:54] I mean you aren’t the one having to volunteer and do it. It’s basically just me and void atm with most sre stuff and mac fan for mediawiki [01:09:29] It’s easy for someone to say why won’t you continue to run it. [01:10:01] This entirely. [01:10:31] #general is busy, what did I miss ... [01:10:37] [1/3] these two in particular: [01:10:38] [2/3] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1187912963898740817 [01:10:38] [3/3] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1187915381373935666 [01:10:38] Is raidarr welcome back in the event of merge w/ wt? <:pleading_face_BOLD:748650536873623673> [01:11:27] I assume so, yes. [01:11:33] <.labster> Almost certainly Raidarr is back. [01:11:39] That'll need to be discussed when the time comes, but generally. [01:12:04] This is awesome [01:12:14] I'm not sure the problem with either of these comments? [01:12:42] so, you don't see an issue with saying a vote doesn't matter? [01:12:42] <.labster> No it's definitely the smoking gun against me. [01:13:06] like i said, we are not going to agree., so there's not point in continuing. [01:13:33]