[00:03:44] Thanks for your vote, hoping we'll be able to work together to prove that well-placed. [00:03:57] We’ll see [00:49:03] [1/2] Of course, just like the promise where UniversalOmega said that the for profit corporation would be subordinate to the nonprofit foundation [00:49:03] [2/2] Oh wait [00:51:38] You cant make for-profit a subsidy of a non-profit [00:52:00] That would not only be ethically wrong, but not allowed by the IRS [00:58:07] Yeah, that coordination was specific to the MH premium RfC (MH LTD is not a nonprofit.) [01:01:17] [1/5] @paladox @agentisai @orduin [01:01:17] [2/5] Hello, how is it going? [01:01:17] [3/5] We have noticed that there is no community wiki banner for voting in the Request for Comments. Given the importance of this decision, it is the feel of some Community Admins such as myself that there should be a global announcement so that people that admin wikis on the site know that this is an ongoing issue. We ourselves wouldn't have been notified, if it was not from the Disco [01:01:17] [4/5] rd. But most wikis admins are not on the discord. Given that there are over 4000 wikis and around 100 votes in the poll, informing the local wiki admins seems necessary for an open and honest discussion. [01:01:18] [5/5] Regards [01:01:34] There is a CentralNotice actually [01:01:37] I see it [01:01:41] If you don't, it might be due to cache [01:02:07] I'll check in my wikis and let you know if I see it or not [01:02:31] It won’t be for logged out users [01:02:53] Since they don’t have a vote and it doesn’t want to attract IPs [01:02:55] Yeah, logged out users can't vote due to policy [01:03:40] I am logged in [01:05:09] ok, the only one where I don't see is in our principal wiki [01:05:16] It's likely cache then [01:05:19] Or preferences [01:05:35] what preferences could be? [01:06:02] It also doesn't show up on special pages, just in case that's a factor [01:09:10] nop, I have been checking in Main pages, all show up except our big wiki [01:13:34] It's likely just cache then [01:13:43] Once it expires, it might appear [01:20:46] [1/3] > onto a more resilient hardware setup and while the backend will slowly converge, there won't be changes to front-end or branding in near term [01:20:46] [2/3] So, they will be changes in long term. I copy my comment because is not nested so is unlikely to have reply: [01:20:46] [3/3] So, they will be in long term. What about URLs? I don't want that .miraheze.org changes at all. .wikitide.org is so new that doesn't seem to have many wikis, but I bet they don't want either to change to miraheze.org What will be when you want to choose only one of those as support in exponential having two terminations? Jakeukalane [01:24:34] You can keep the miraheze.org URL [01:25:06] should a switch occur, we'd ensure SEO isn't affected [01:35:33] [1/2] Which is what I said since the start and why it wouldn't work out that way and it didn't. It wouldn't have worked in any situation thus why the proposal was unreal, much as this one is also unrealistic. There is no "merger" of Miraheze with Wikitide, there is only a dissolution of Miraheze and everything which makes it different - chiefly, the lack of a profit motiv [01:35:33] [2/2] e. The only reason "WikiTide" exist is to have a tax-free userbase platform for WikiForge. And nothing in the previous RfC (either for shared governance or for funds transfer agreement) was implemented. [01:36:10] Miraheze Ltd would be dissolved either way [01:36:20] both WikiTide Foundation and Miraheze Foundation are new companies [01:36:42] I think your misinformed how the merger would work, Miraheze LTD is going away basically no matter what, the only difference here is what org will take over [01:36:58] either way, using WT to avoid taxes is illegal [01:37:10] they got Al Capone for tax evasion, I'm sure they'll get us [01:37:12] Is WT shorting down [01:37:48] WT shutting down or no [01:38:06] Is WT shutting down or no [01:38:56] Never mind I’ll only ask Miraheze questions on this server [01:39:03] Alright if youre gonna keep deleting the message and resending it, that would be considered spamming [01:39:08] You sent the message 3 times [01:39:10] Sorry [01:39:12] Give em time to respond [01:39:24] I’ll only send Miraheze questions on here [01:39:44] Its fine what you sent here, but deleting it and resending it 3 times disrupts discussion [01:39:49] Appreciated, thanks. 🙂 [01:40:50] As Zppix said it's a fine Q, but given how busy things are on both sites at the moment it's helpful to ask WT questions over there [01:41:41] Miraheze Foundation is a continuation of Miraheze, in fact it was Miraheze Foundation before [01:42:21] also, there is this. Universal Omega when leaving not only deleted his user but blanked out all of his logs via oversight. Essentially censorship to everything related to him. How is that for accountability? [01:42:51] No its always been Miraheze Ltd, Miraheze foundation didnt exist til around july [01:43:00] and why does he not come to make his own proposals ever, only Agent_Isai does everything? [01:43:03] is there like a wiki creation for dummies thing i can look at or read bc this is making my head swim 💀 i have never made a wiki before and I know VERY basic html but nothing more [01:43:20] im trying to find a youtube tut on it and found some stuff but i'm still struggling with seemingly very small things [01:43:47] i don't know if there's like, an overall guide? but it's probably better to look for specificas [01:44:03] hmmm okay i'll just keep going with what i was doing [01:44:05] thank you <3 [01:44:10] alright, np [01:44:11] <:EVE_computing:1054971874637004892> [01:44:50] MediaWiki has some general documentation on MediaWiki.org that could be helpful as a starting point [01:45:38] Though if you're hitting a specific problem, asking here is a great way to get unstuck on a specific issue. [01:46:34] Deleting your user is not only a legal right since Miraheze is currently hosted in the UK, but allowed by policy. [01:47:41] [1/2] there is something deleting your user, other deleting all associated logs [01:47:42] [2/2] But even then, why should Miraheze be handed to someone outside public scrutiny? And which is above even having an account and talking his own proposals? [01:48:14] for full disclosure, isn't membership of WikiForge necessarily a fopr-profit endeavor? Then why are so many volunteers (presumably paid) wikiforge employees? [01:48:16] Why shouldnt we allow anyone to excerise their rights that are within UK law? [01:48:38] Didn't Fandom start in a similar manner when Wikimedia volunteers created a for-profit enterprise? [01:48:53] What… [01:49:07] Fandom’s only tie to the wikimedia foundation is that they share a founder [01:49:36] Not only. They also share a platform and shared developers. [01:49:49] I would love the source on that [01:50:29] Considering Fandom’s famous for being like many versions behind on their software [01:51:01] let's say it's the case. But public scrutiny to figures is a civil responsibility, so we have a right to judge them if after lots of controversies they decide to delete everything and not respond [01:51:07] co-founder of Fandom [01:51:41] She was a volunteer… what are people supposed to limit who can volunteer on a public project? [01:51:57] history repeats [01:52:00] WikiForge has no employees. When it does (the first employees will be paid, professional sysadmins probably), it plans to share them with WikiTide [01:52:08] in fact, no one's been paid [01:52:29] Yeah those the titles Jimmy Wales holds [01:52:52] no, "respectively" means she was advisory board member, not him [01:53:50] so, people will be paid a wage. And anyways is WikiForge sole ownership or does it have ownership shares? I presume it has no public listing of any sort [01:54:33] no, no shareholders [01:54:38] and also not sole ownership either [01:54:58] so, what does that mean? [01:55:49] we are presumed to handle Miraheze to this project yet we are not disclosed any corporate or ownership structure... [01:56:13] Because it has no corporate or ownership structure? Its ran by a board [01:56:33] Like 99.9% of nonprofits [01:57:08] I was explicitely speaking of WikiForge. Wikiforge is not a nonprofit [01:57:19] ad it was registered before WikiTide IIRC [01:57:24] WikiForge is also ran by a board [01:58:01] but it isn't öwned by a board, that isn't a legitimate ownership structure.- Companies are ran by boards, not instantly owned because someone has a position. [01:58:27] Theres law that requires someone to own something [01:58:53] All you need is something running it [01:58:56] Like a board [01:59:40] that's both not true from a legal standpoint and completely shady from a human one [02:00:40] It is true, to incorporate a company or organization, all you need is a legal agent, for example I am the legal agent for Miraheze Foundation, you can hire a company to be the legal agent if you wanted to as well [02:01:23] As long as the government gets its paperwork it doesnt care if something has a owner [02:03:18] You need to submit articles of Formation or of organization. This would show how the company is run. otherwise it can't be incorporated. [02:03:33] Correct [02:03:43] and there is ownership too [02:04:22] Assuming it has shareholders [02:04:36] is WikiForge Inc. or LLC? I haven't seen any reference to either [02:04:52] Miraheze is LLC. And Miraheze Foundation is a foundation [02:05:01] WikiForge seems to not even be legal [02:05:03] Wrong Miraheze is not a LLC [02:05:23] Miraheze is a Limited by guarantee [02:05:34] MHF is a not for profit organization [02:05:36] WF is an LLC, and I'd ask that you stop speculating with incomplete information. [02:07:36] We are not being given any information [02:07:44] Thus I am asking [02:07:44] Both orgs are registered with the state of Idaho, and that registration is publicly available on the Secretary of State's website [02:08:07] MHF is registered in Illinois and info can be found on its Secretary of State website [02:08:37] Miraheze Ltd is registered in the UK and can be found on Company’s house website [02:11:24] So, Wikitide is Inc. and Wikiforge is LLC [02:12:55] More or less, yeah [02:13:38] I need to get back to holiday prep, but will try to do another pass on answering qs later. [02:13:54] So it says in the filings you referred. [02:14:32] Yet I coudn't find any information, public or otherwise, on the Wikiforge Members (other than presumably UniversalOmega) or its Board, and there is nothing on the WikiForge Page itself that I would find [02:14:53] and furthermore I can see in real time in this chat Miraheze volunteers being "onboarded" to wikiforge as they change their votes [02:15:09] People change their votes [02:15:10] It happens [02:15:23] Zppix had "strongest oppose" hours ago and now you are an evangelist [02:15:29] forgive my "suspicions" [02:15:49] I’m far from an evangelist, and I am going put a stop to the speculating and assumptions [02:16:13] So unless you have anything rooted in facts, I’m going to ask you to stop. [02:17:51] When you said you would "put a stop" I expected clarification though. None seems forthcoming, in any of these matters. [02:17:54] I have said my piece, there is nothing else [02:18:10] So WikiForge has no ownership and no info is available. I blindly trust :))) [02:41:52] The only member of the board I could find using Google was Ryan Everts but thats just a LinkedIn page [02:43:49] Information can be found at the State of Idaho Secretary of State website [03:02:36] <.labster, replying to zppix> If you mean subsidiary, yes for-profits can be subsidiaries of nonprofits. Mozilla Corporation and OpenAI are notable examples of this. Which are not examples that the concepts work well. There was an article in the paper here about local VFW that made a for-profit corporation to rent out their hall more effectively and it working out nicely. [03:08:44] <.labster> In the US it's basically about bypassing limits on unrelated business income or keeping at least 1/3 of donation income in small donations. So you spin off a corporation, where the sole shareholder is the nonprofit. [03:09:25] <.labster> None of this is to say it's necessarily a good idea for us, just how it works in the nonprofit world. [03:29:56] So when does voting end? [03:31:29] On the 31st [03:33:52] <.labster> Unless a steward feels it needs to be extended. [04:53:23] [1/2] hello guys I have a question about infoboxes and templates, that being do I have to create a separate instance of it for each article or can i fill in the data on a case-by-case basis? [04:53:24] [2/2] For example, for two characters per se, if i have an infobox template with basic categories like height and weight etc, can I make both wiki pages for each character with the same template or do I have to make one infobox for Character 1 and one for Character 2? [04:59:11] This is a great guide to start you out: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Infoboxes [04:59:53] The general idea: you create an infobox template, something like Template:Infobox Character, that provides the skeleton of how an infobox should look and how it should work + what values it can accept. [05:00:14] Then, on the characters 1 and 2 pages, you'd call that same template, putting in different values. [05:01:56] [1/7] E.g. something like: [05:01:57] [2/7] ```{{Character [05:01:57] [3/7] |height=1 million ft [05:01:57] [4/7] |weight=non-euclidian [05:01:58] [5/7] |species=dimensional space whale [05:01:58] [6/7] }}``` [05:01:58] [7/7] within an articl'e's wikitext when using source editor [05:02:42] ooh okay that clears it up, thank you so much!!! [05:03:05] i was having issues with the distinction between the template and calling the template but it was simpler than i realized [05:03:08] thanks again :D [05:03:12] <:EVE_heart:1145207776210075688> [05:03:18] Glad to be of help. [05:04:36] [1/4] They way I look at it: [05:04:36] [2/4] Modules: bits of lua code that let your wiki do brand new things [05:04:37] [3/4] Templates: bits of logic that automate repeat activities, they act as an interface for module features and as a skeleton for a final output [05:04:37] [4/4] Mainspace Articles: the final output that makes the things people actually look at [08:53:54] should one ask questions about the rfc on the rfc itself, or is it okay to ask here in the discord? [08:54:19] <.labster> Either is fine [08:54:56] <.labster> More general information here, if you want to ask someone specifically a question it's best to ask on the page so they see it. [08:56:46] okay, thank you for clarifying! [11:06:43] I think of templates purely as a piece of wiki text that can be copied in dynamically with parameter, which can contain parser functions or modules, and those have the “logic” [15:48:07] Does Miraheze have an equivalent for WPs barnstars? [16:45:50] I recall seeing some [16:46:02] but not sure [16:49:01] were they also barnstars or something different? [16:49:43] actually, maybe they were barnstars from Wikimedia Commons lol [17:27:34] I like how much tools mediawiki provide 😍👍 [18:10:20] Wow +67 for merger and -51 for merger [18:10:53] This might be the most participation we’ve ever had for an RFC [18:14:25] regardless of the outcome that’s fantastic! [18:14:28] -51 for shutdown* [18:14:59] By “fail” does RhinosF1 mean the options get outvoted or implementation fails? [18:15:39] Both [18:15:54] Anything that results in them not happening / working [18:17:27] Do you think Option C will work if/when it wins? [18:18:06] I believe it has good potential [18:18:42] Same. But I don’t know why I only see you “weakly supporting” D on the RfC page! [18:18:56] Because I haven't added my votes on B & C yet [18:19:10] As I've been busy with family stuff [18:19:24] Because of that weird thing that's happening tomorrow [18:20:14] I totally understand. And why do you think Christmas is “weird”? I guess because it’s not normal compared to the other 364/365 days of the year? [18:20:45] It's sarcasm. Wondering if some people had noticed we might have other stuff to do. [18:20:55] People on in internet are sending me crazy today [18:21:25] Sorry! I know it must be stressful with everything happening at once! [18:21:38] [1/2] Also RhinosF1 has unique opinions on forced gatherings of people you may or may not like. [18:21:39] [2/2] I find his worldview refreshing, but we don't always agree. [18:22:24] You say it’s “forced”? Don’t people want to spend time with their family and potentially get great gifts? [18:22:30] No [18:22:34] My family just argue [18:22:50] Covid was brilliant. None of the huge family gatherings have been back since [18:23:35] Not everyone does, but I personally do, and won't be online much today through new years as a result. 🙂 [18:24:59] OK then! [18:31:24] If it was my choice, wikis would be read only and discord and IRC locked 24th - 26th too [18:49:28] Interesting. How would it be possible to implement such a thing? I know an extension would just have to check the current date on the server and assign perms accordingly! [18:50:36] It would be extremely simple to set $wgReadOnly based on the date in UTC [18:50:52] Did you delete your message @mrbradlerz [18:51:02] IRC doesn't delete [18:51:16] Yeah. Sorry! [18:51:41] You have Discord hooked up to IRC? How do you do that? [18:52:06] A bot [18:52:19]