[00:20:14] <:MenheraWave:585569939989987359> [00:20:34] can someone link me to the premium offerings RFC page so that I can read up on it? [00:33:23] [00:40:07] <:woah:592247597952139265> thanks! [00:46:52] For context, the specifics proposed with that RFC were contingent on a negotiated deal w/ MH LTD to acquire WikiForge that didn't end up going through. [00:47:59] <.labster> Does it still apply to the board now, I wonder? [00:49:08] <.labster> The current RFC probably supercedes it, though [00:49:12] Well, the proposal was specifically to get community approval to enter negotiations, not really binding beyond that. [00:50:22] Whether that 'approve' would carry over to a new consolidated entity would be open to interpretation, but so much has happened since I'd err on the side of 'probably not'? [00:51:06] that was done back when WF wasn't incorporated and was to be an MH subsidiary so some details in that RfC are no longer true and up to date [00:51:25] <.labster> Option C defines a different relationship with WikiTide too [00:53:36] <.labster> I live in a country where the 1872 Mining Act defines our environmental policy and gun laws must be based on restrictions in place in the 1700s so I think about these things [00:56:10] I always thought the premium offerings RFC was also done for WikiTide, hence why Agent Isai said it was won by a landslide. [00:56:30] WikiTide didn't exist back then [00:56:43] by back then, I mean 6 months ago [00:57:18] 32 vs 6 is a pretty good margin, it's an 85% support ratio [00:57:54] I don't argue with that. Personally I didn't know the RfC was conducted at all x3 but I'm also a fairly big lurker all in all. [00:58:44] I don't blame you, things move fast [00:59:14] I just mentioned to Reception123 how I had completely forgotten about the wiki governance RfC which happened less than a year ago [00:59:35] I forgot it too and I helped draft serveral clauses and amendments to it. 😄 [01:00:10] <:vinumSmile2:349296105198190602> as long as you don't forget your root passwords, it'll be fine [01:01:23] @noeru we do not have root login enabled [01:03:08] [01:05:10] I mean, I don't want to be sus, asking specifics about the security system that Miraheze, buuuuut... then you must have superuser access, or.. probably physical root access only? But I find it hard to believe that the only way to fix things would be to physically access the serverfarm.. [01:10:39] We login using SSH keys instead of passwords and use sudo to execute elevated operations [01:11:00] but there's no one single root password and we can't directly login as root [01:11:08] we login as ourselves and do sudo to run things [01:14:00] <:mgqKamuro:331019595093901312> that's really smart and way more technologically advanced than I thought. Usually SSH Keys do have a password as another layer of security, but ain't needed if the PC is not run by layer 8 Buffoons [01:22:38] <.labster> We need physical access because of our poor old disk drives [01:25:16] <.labster> SSH can be insecure if any staff member’s SSH client is insecure, and can be MitM’ed in a new attack [04:25:41] I’ll help 20 people on how to earn $30k from the crypto market within 72 hours but you will pay me 10% of your profit when you receive it. Note only interested people should apply, drop a message let’s get started by asking (HOW) [04:56:49] [1/2] disabled anon edits despite proper permissions settings [04:56:49] [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1188681612142071929 [05:05:17] so is it likely that miraheze will stop being a thing? [05:05:58] No, the only thing that's going to change is leadership. [05:08:26] can i get a tldr on the situation? [05:15:36] or, a link i should read to understand the situation [05:25:27] i just feel like i lack a lot of context. [05:32:19] Hey guys. I use templates to generate mw-collapsible elements. Since I can have several of them within a page, I would need each transclusion to generate a unique id for the toggle part ("mw-customtoggle-uniqueID"). Is there a way to have that within the template (instead to have to id sent through parameters, which would force the user to choose it manually each time)? [05:38:40] [1/5] Shortest version: [05:38:40] [2/5] * The current board would prefer to pass along ownership of Miraheze to a new entity, for a variety of reasons [05:38:41] [3/5] * There are two groups which have emerged that can reasonably take on that mantle, both of which would be based in the US following transfer [05:38:41] [4/5] * The RfC under proposals 1B and 1C detail each group and their merits [05:38:41] [5/5] I personally represent part of the group associated with 1C, so am really most comfortable answer any Qs you may have about that side of things, but can connect you with appropriate folks on 1B if you ahve questions there. [05:40:10] What are the reasons why a transfer of ownership is desired? [05:40:54] (sorry to have messed up with you talk guys 😮 ) [05:41:40] Should I be concerned that any of the outcomes (excluding D from the question, for obvious reasons) would end up having an impact on my wiki? For example, things like causing me to have to move it to another host, change the way i manage it, etc [05:41:57] @bzbzh Not a problem, and it's a very neat question I don't have a clean answer to. I suspect a support thread might net you the best outcome since it's the holidays and our most skilled folks are largely offline for the holidays. [05:44:00] In case this information helps give an anwer more precise to my specific situation: I run a wiki for a webcomic I make. The wiki has like, two editors, but they're two very passionate editors. I would hate to have their work get deleted or changed significantly by forces beyond theirs or my control [05:44:06] Either contender's goal is to minimize disruption to existing MH wikis, while 501(c)(3) charitable status might put some dampers on what we can accept going forward for either group, it's expected that we should be able to square that circle w/r/t existing wikis, retaining the same user experience as before. [05:48:01] As long as you're following Miraheze content policy today, that should pose absolutely zero problem under either outcome [05:53:08] (Sorry if that came across as less descriptive, jumping between holiday hosting duties and here. 🙂 ) [05:53:44] (it's fine! it definetly lowers my concerns a bit. it's a very hectic time in a lot of senses :b) [05:54:03] B and C wouldn't impact your wiki in the end, A (inevitably leads to D) and D will re looking for another host [05:55:08] that seems to be the case. i'm concerned about B leading to a situation like fandom, since i'm seeing that it is not a non-profit. how likely do you all think that is? (feel free to answer for C as well) [05:55:41] what situation like on Fandom? [05:56:11] Fandom is for-profit, Miraheze will stay non-profit (in general sense) no matter wht [05:57:25] So what will WikiForge's role be? [05:57:40] B intends to seek 501c3 status, C already has it. Both are organized by volunteers that have zero interest in a for profit Miraheze. [05:58:06] oh, strange, i must've read someone who was wrong then [05:59:07] Zero, it's a separate project to handle needs that can't be done by a nonprofit community project, like large wiki communities that would like to pay for a dedicated server for their wiki. [06:01:19] right [06:01:30] Finances are completely walled off between WikiForge and WikiTide, and our intent for a combined WikiTide/Miraheze board under option 1C is that those involved with WikiForge will be a minority to avoid undue influence. [06:04:06] I've added a longer-form explanation here: https://meta.miraheze.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_Comment%2FReorganization_of_Miraheze&diff=354374&oldid=354373&diffmode=source [06:11:34] logged out again <:moonch:794697217826095165> [06:11:43] it's been peaceful 2 weeks [06:15:51] Been happening for me on all my usually frequented sites a lot this holiday season. The 2FA app has been getting a lot of use. [06:27:29] /v [06:43:06] sorry for the sudden leave. just wanted to thank you for your time and for answering my questions. it's definitely hard to be fully not concerned about the situation 😅 but i'm definitely less worried about the future of my small wiki and i hope the transfer goes as smoothly as circumstances will allow [06:46:17] Absolutely, no worries at all! [06:48:32] Thanks for having the interest to come by and ask questions, an engaged community is a good one. [10:14:20] [1/2] How long does it take for a wiki to be mark for closing due to inactivity [10:14:20] [2/2] I may not be able to work on my project the wiki is for, so I want to know how long I get before it gets shut down [10:15:27] [1/2] "An inactivity notice is shown on the wiki after it has been inactive for 45 days and fifteen days later, if no activity is seen, it is closed" [10:15:28] [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Closed_wikis [10:16:25] [1/2] That's [10:16:25] [2/2] That'd really short [10:16:46] Now I'm worried that taking breaks from the project will cost the wiki getting closed [10:18:55] Maybe you could get someone to make a simple edit once every month? [10:19:07] That's activity [10:19:41] Closed is not the same as deleted. When a wiki is closed, it is set in read-only mode but remains available for everyone to read. After 6 months of no activity, then it's hidden from public view and finally deleted a few months after that. [10:20:00] can you reopen a closed wiki? [10:20:04] yep [10:20:10] cool! How? [10:20:33] In Special:ManageWiki, there's a checkbox that says "Closed". You untick it if it's marked and save [10:20:43] Ah, cool, noted! [10:20:46] that's if you're a wiki bureaucrat, otherwise you ask a Steward to do it [10:21:01] My art for holidays will be the sole thing keeping the wiki alive cuz I gave to add those ro the wiki [10:25:45] Please have a fantastic day and merry Christmas everyone. [10:27:41] u2 Rhino [10:44:21] [1/2] even small edits resets inactivity times [10:44:21] [2/2] and as Agent noted, it takes about 6 months for wiki to be deleted for inactivity [10:53:26] We are super slow to delete wikis [10:53:44] And I promise we won't do any database deletion while you're eating Xmas dinner [10:54:16] Please go enjoy time with your family [11:25:07] Hello everyone, it's good to be back [11:25:37] yo [12:23:07] any way to change the button icons' images? couldnt find it written in css [12:27:05] had to just disable the invisible background-color for this, which works for what i need but it kind of looks out of place [13:06:47] The reason why something has to happen in that regard, simply put, is that the current situation (and thus 1A in the RfC as well), is just not sustainable in the long run, and thus staying as is would in best case lead to 1D in the RfC, if not a less controlled version of it eventually [13:47:56] does popups work by default of do you need to set it up? [13:48:03] (the extension) [13:48:06] also merry christmas [14:00:35] Why does someone think seeing Miraheze shut down would be “gratifying”? And what’s the latest score on the RfC? [14:07:01] first enable PageImages and TextExtracts, then Popups itself [14:15:20] People are entitled to their own opinions; the latest score is overwhelming support for a WikiTide merger, with a move to the US in a not-so-close second [14:15:51] That’s good! At least the other two options are not winning! [14:17:08] did a few minutes before, but still not working [14:17:34] takes a lot of time to start working [14:17:55] first PI and TE should generat respective data [14:18:18] would a day be enough? [14:18:26] Enabled yesterday [14:18:49] (page images and textextracts then popups) [15:36:48] https://tenor.com/view/tyrese-gibson-sorry-scared-black-tyrese-black-dude-scared-gif-20490433 [15:36:49] when miraheze lags after making a 4 hour long edit without saving [15:42:17] Real [15:42:29] This is why you copy before saving [16:06:56] If you're edit is going to take longer than like half an hour, I strongly suggest drafting off the page [16:07:27] Session persistence for tokens isn't indefinite [16:09:25] all good it saved <:YEP:748369548792561666> [16:59:15] Wow 80 supports on 1C [16:59:17] Christ [18:47:19] Yeah, I'm pretty confident this has now surpassed all prior RfCs on every metric of engagement [18:48:06] (total votes, total supports, unique voters, supports on single proposal) [18:51:22] I'd say thats a good thing given how consequential this RfC is for the platform! [18:53:01] -42 A, 24 B, 69 C (nice), -53 D [18:59:46] so yk how fandom has that top navigation thingy [18:59:55] does miraheze have something like that too [19:00:02] and if so where do i find it [19:02:08] There's a theme called Cosmos that's similar to Fandom [19:03:05] arent skins broken rn tho [19:03:17] cuz i enabled it previously and it didnt do anything [19:03:39] Not sure what you mean by that [19:03:41] you need to set the skin as default, not just enable it [19:04:02] ohhh [19:04:44] you can do that in Special:ManageWiki/settings#mw-section-styling [19:05:27] omg yay it works [19:05:54] but where do i go to edit top navigation [19:06:09] The same page where you edit the sidebar [19:06:49] Either w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Sidebar&action=edit or w/index.php?title=MediaWiki:Cosmos-navigation&action=edit [19:07:26] thx [19:35:16] Hello there! 👋🏻 [19:35:21] Merry Christmas, everyone! 🙂 [19:35:24] 🎄 [19:35:40] Admins, can you make at Announcements some Christmas wishes? [19:45:08] something I'm still confused about after reading the RfC and all of its comments, is why wikitide is going to eat miraheze and not vice versa? miraheze is more solidly established than wt, it has the longest history and has name recognition. I have seen proposal C positioned as undoing the split that originated wikitide, but that would imply that miraheze would re-absorb wikitide. [19:54:14] They probably enjoying Christmas [19:54:28] I believe WikiTide would fold back into trading as Miraheze [19:54:36] Agent is best to answer [19:54:42] I'm not pinging people today [19:55:23] OK [19:56:38] The miraheze LTD company will cease to exist under either option B or C, it is structured this way for legal reasons. The miraheze brand will remain. [19:58:34] (A will most likely lead to D by my read of Owen's comments, so I'm considering those equivalent) [20:01:17] I thank you for this, and sorry for the reply-ping in advance [20:04:27] I think the biggest reason(though I could be entirely wrong, so if someone says otherwise, they are probably the one you should listen to) for that would be that WT has the 501(c)(3) status in the US already, allowing MH to thus inherit it, if WT is the one doing the absorbing [20:06:38] aha got it! thank you all for the clarifications! [20:20:55] As explained by everyone: Miraheze would absorb WikiTide's wikis but WikiTide Foundation would legally absorb Miraheze in order to extend our charity status [20:21:14] everyone's absorbing everyone [20:22:18] How confident are you that WikiTide's style of infrastructure can support Miraheze's wikis for less than the cost of what Miraheze currently pays for colocation? [20:22:28] I read the proposals and that stood out to me as a very questionable assertion [20:34:23] Of course, we don't currently have the infrastructure in place at this very moment to just shift everyone over [20:34:30] We have around 1/3rd of the specs Miraheze has for around 1/7th of the cost and while that's a severe overprovision for WikiTide (thus our wikis load at a good speed), it'd definitely lead to a 90 second load time [20:34:42] Our approach is rented but better resourced dedicated servers (perhaps even better than the ones WT has) with negotiated better rates at hosting providers. Doing some quick math based on rough resource calculations provided by an SRE, we could achieve around 2x resources (in some areas like RAM) for around almost half of the current monthly Miraheze budget [20:37:21] What are the current expenses and specs? It looks to me like Miraheze is spending about $650 monthly on 152 CPU cores [20:38:20] my infobox titles wont appear [20:38:37] im using cosmos skin so maybe its skin-related [20:38:46] Are you saying you're spending ~$100 monthly on 50 cores? That's an exceptionally good deal if true [20:38:54] @agentisai i thought you used AWS not rented hardware? [20:39:03] Or is it just forge on AWS [20:39:07] that was the case with WF, yeah [20:39:19] to employ that with WT or MH for that matter would be a death sentence [20:39:32] Ah [20:39:36] It sort of strains believability, and given some of the previous struggles WikiForge had with understanding the economics of AWS, I wouldn't mind seeing more information about what the actual setup is [20:39:48] _has an AWS event in Jan to do_ [20:45:22] <.labster, replying to mrbradlerz> That is a machine translated comment as well [20:48:42] my infobox titles wont appear [20:48:51] i tried changing skins too [20:48:53] and it didnt work [20:51:36] also cosmos skin disappeared from "default skin" in styling [20:51:44] so now i cant change it back [20:53:21] Could you double-check that Cosmos is enabled under your list of extensions in ManageWiki? [20:54:11] it is [20:54:33] Yeah there were a lot of lessons learned from that, but the new setup is a lot more cost-effective and performant then AWS ever was. AWS was a monstrous mistake and would definitely be financially death to try to apply on WT/MH [20:55:45] Hrm, maybe try disabling, then re-enabling and see if it becomes available? [20:55:57] k [20:56:33] yay now its bcak [20:56:34] back [20:56:40] but my infobox titles still wont appear [21:01:17] also how do i document parameters in an infobox [21:01:46] if your wiki is public, can you link the page where you're trying to use the infobox? [21:02:06] I'd be happy to take a look and see if there's anything that immediately stands out as a problem. [21:04:42] bruh the link is blocked [21:05:09] ill dm it [21:05:18] You need to /auth to post links [21:06:59] who is the vendor you're using for WikiTide? [21:11:40] Got it sorted, it was a fun situation of the template documentation not reflecting the actual parameter name. All good now [21:12:06] NOCIX [23:59:10] OK then!