[00:00:51] Community board seat terms will be 2 years, yes. The first election will be for 4 seats, 2 of them for 2 years, and 2 of them for 1 year, so that each election there are two people running for two-year terms. At least that's what's in the draft plan. [00:03:47] oh yeah lol [00:04:53] I LOVE MINCERAFT [00:04:55] lmao but like how [00:05:41] Isn’t Jimbo literally the reason we are here? By foudning wikipedia and mediaiwki [00:27:33] To be pedantic, MediaWiki was invented by Magnus Manske [00:28:30] I met him when I was 15, and again when I was 25 [00:28:35] To also be pedantic, Jimbo technically co-founded Wikipedia with Larry Sanger. [00:28:54] But are any of us here because of Larry Sanger? [00:29:27] <.labster> I never met Ward, but I did have a couple of meals with Patrick Michaud who wrote PmWiki [00:29:56] In a way, technically; it was Jimbo's and Larry's initial work that kicked off Wikipedia, and thus the technical interest to develop MediaWiki. [00:30:00] These days, Sanger is just some weird, estranged individual who wants to see Wikipedia burn, and Jimbo is so disconnected from his own community that he may as well be a stranger. [00:30:43] <.labster, replying to k6ka> Do not speak thus of the God-Emperor of Wikikind [00:30:56] co-God-Emperor * [00:31:01] Oh, we Wikipedians dump on Jimbo all the time! [00:31:31] All hail Magnus Manske; he's the one who really got MediaWiki going. And Tim Starling somewhere too, I'm sure. [00:31:32] He's less like our emperor and more like our dad [00:31:54] <.labster> Do not speak thus of the God-Emperor of Wikikind! [00:32:12] <.labster> I thought I replied to the wrong message 😑 [00:32:15] co-God-Emperor * [00:33:21] <.labster> Yea, this is why he must be appeased with $3 offerings [00:33:55] "For the price of a cup of coffee, you can help me go golfing I mean, sustain the sum of human knowledge." [00:36:05] <.labster> I just started watching Foundation and I’m thinking about whether we can clone Jimbo at different ages [00:38:24] whos that? [00:38:28] wha- [00:38:28] Ward Cunningham created the first wiki in 1995 [00:39:12] I recognize Tim’s name from somewhere [00:39:18] Oh right [00:39:24] <.labster> The WikiWiki Web a.k.a. Portland Pattern Repository [00:39:50] Theres so many people who snowballed to create miraheze [00:40:06] not to mention the small things as wel [00:40:46] did that British giy who helped make the visual editor contribute to its founding? Who knows! Its all linked [00:41:02] One thing that tickles me is that Miraheze uses a template I came up with during a Wikimedia Foundation internship in 2017. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:Portal_navigation [00:41:18] You interned at WMF? Daaang [00:41:21] There have been at least two British men involved in VisualEditor's creation [00:41:31] <.labster> Miraheze would likely not exist today if an Aussie sci-fi author hadn’t made a pun at a Japanese wrestling match in the 1970s [00:41:37] The one im thinking of is James Forrester [00:41:49] I do not think he was at the founding. He just joined very early on [00:42:09] The best part is this may be true [00:42:12] <.labster> No it’s absolutely true [00:42:16] I’m admittedly not super knowledgeable about it [00:42:54] he’s the only WMF staff I’ve actually conversed with though [00:43:27] I think he’s currently doing the Abstract Wikipedia thing [00:43:50] <.labster> I got involved with ATT primarily because LooneyTunes recommended a crossover fanfic that was inspired by Dirty Pair. [00:44:11] Lmao [00:45:14] <.labster> History is full of just the weirdest events [00:45:47] <.labster> Nothing about anything we do is inevitable; we all have a choice. [00:48:03] 502 incoming [00:48:43] We just don’t always know where they’ll lead [00:48:43] dang this got deep [00:48:51] fandom can be thanked for my miraheze expedition [00:49:06] ditto [00:49:10] well [00:49:14] And it's fine again. Shouted to early? [00:49:47] if it's persistent do shout [00:49:48] A certain wiki on fandom and a downright awesome mediawikian can be thanked for me being a wiki person today [00:49:49] one off, probably not [00:50:08] the servers are still on strike [00:50:08] unionizing [00:52:31] Nah, it's oky again. Just 2 after another... [00:52:34] <.labster, replying to pixldev> More like deionizing with how old they are [00:53:13] What is old? 🤨 [00:53:35] daaang how dare you insult my buddy ro like thay [00:53:36] LOL [00:53:38] <.labster> Some MH servers are 10 years old [00:54:01] My laptop is from 2008 😄 [00:54:29] desktop* [00:54:30] <.labster> Server workloads are not like PC workloads [00:54:46] True [00:57:00] Why are template editors sometimes so annoying? [00:57:20] What do you mean? [00:58:56] [1/6] Either they write like this: {{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{#if:{{{plain|}}}|{{{1}}}|{{#tag:syntaxhighlight|{{{1}}}|lang=lua|inline=}}}}}} [00:58:56] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/%23if:Template:%7b%7b%7b1 [00:58:56] [2/6] Or [00:58:57] [3/6] {{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{#if:{{{plain|}}}|{{{1}}}|{{#tag:syntaxhighlight|{{{1}}}|lang=lua|inline=}}}}}} [00:58:58] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7b1 [00:59:04] If you get my drift [00:59:12] And everything in between [00:59:39] It should be compulsory to write code in one way only 😄 [01:00:17] <.labster, replying to rodejong> NO U [01:00:31] <.labster> UGH pythonistas are everywhere [01:00:31] [1/5] Or [01:00:31] [2/5] [01:00:32] [3/5] {{documentation}} [01:00:32] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:documentation [01:00:32] [4/5] /noinclude [01:00:32] [5/5] {{documentation}}/noinclude [01:00:32] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:documentation [01:00:32]

[01:00:37] oops [01:00:44] sorry for the ping [01:01:02] Python? [01:01:20] No I am OCD-hit 😄 [01:01:34] I need order [01:02:06] it's the language and its requirements that make us annoying. Also this is why I've moved on to Lua [01:02:42] The top one can actually cause unintended empty

 tags sometimes, depending what is around it
[01:03:11] 	  Lua is a new language for me. I'm stuck in the 2004-2010 generation
[01:04:42] 	  I hate unnecessary white spaces and enters, just because they want to open and close everything visually. Just write it behind eachother.
[01:04:50] 	  Same with LUA templates
[01:05:15] 	  Some write it nicely in one line, invoking a module
[01:05:26] 	  Others put it over 4 or 5 lines
[01:05:39] 	  😄
[01:05:55] 	  My OCD can't handle that 😄
[01:06:38] 	  Either do it all in one way or the other.
[01:07:45] 	  And then that obsessive way of writing (Sometimes shouting) that the cat's and the IW's go in the Documentation. Sometimes twice on the same template - ugh
[01:08:02] 	  Yeah well I actually hate when things get smushed too much together, makes it much harder to debug imo... but wikitext sometimes kinda require it, or it inserts those unintended empty  tags everywhere... the amount of linebreaks I had to delete just to get MW to not insert then
[01:08:12] 	  Sorry... I had to rant for a bit 😄
[01:09:40] 	 <.labster> Lua can be learned in an afternoon though (and another week to find libraries to make it useable)
[01:09:52] 	  I understand that you need to sometimes - but that would be nice to know why ... if it was commented in.
[01:10:07] 	  Oh I have been dabbling abit with it.
[01:10:16] 	  I have written a Module though
[01:10:29] 	  It took me a whole day to make it work
[01:10:47] 	  And I had to look how others made modules
[01:11:24] 	  I think Modules are good for templates that use several templates, as they can't be in the same template
[01:11:56] 	  But a simple navbar or infobox I only use for a few pages... I rather do it 2010 mode
[01:12:44] 	  I'm 50+ ... My brain isn't that fast anymore 😄
[01:13:18] 	  huh
[01:13:28] 	  huh what?
[01:13:41] 	 <.labster> I wrote this nonsense: https://allthetropes.org/wiki/Module:Subpages_6
[01:15:20] 	  Long one
[01:17:40] 	 <.labster> I used to have to stagger deployment of changes to that because all of the cache invalidation would kill Orain’s servers
[01:17:49] 	  [1/2] I wrote this one based on templates of an other version
[01:17:50] 	  [2/2] https://jwmeeting.miraheze.org/wiki/Module:WOL
[01:18:16] 	  I had to troubleshoot with the help of ChatGPT
[01:20:43] 	  Wait.... What happend?????
[01:20:45] 	  https://jwmeeting.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:WOL
[01:21:31] 	  I have 6 locks of protection page icons on this template
[01:21:54] 	 <.labster> I thought there were supposed to be seven seals
[01:22:06] 	  😄 7??
[01:22:31] 	  The seventh is silence 🤐
[01:24:22] 	 <.labster> That would be pretty neat, a template to automatically interwiki transclude a bible verse based on a cite.  Or any book for that matter.
[01:27:37] 	  Could be done in language too if necessary,
[01:28:53] 	  That site has over 1000 language pages, (not all have a complete bible though. (240 i think, including sign languages)
[01:29:28] 	  The seventh has fallen.
[01:29:36] 	  (where is that reference from? My brain went to SCP)
[01:29:50] 	  No Idea
[01:30:05] 	 <.labster> 'Silence will fall' reminds me of Doctor Who
[01:32:32] 	  Hmmm, I get asked to verify my Miraheze Wiki account, but I had done that already, but I can't verify as it gives an error
[01:33:00] 	  The verification failed due to an error, please try again.
[01:34:57] 	 <.labster> Can you verify your verification?
[01:36:03] 	  ?? How?
[01:36:12] 	  I'mstill new on here
[01:36:54] 	 <.labster> that was a joke, verily
[01:38:35] 	  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1198803870118326323/461189216198590464.png?ex=65c03c1b&is=65adc71b&hm=88c243fcb5f54542db8df8873d4b73b0ee800ab8539cd97397d0bd4882f5f9d1&
[01:39:35] 	  It's 2:38 am here, so I am definately not the brightest of the lot at this stage 😄 You can joke all you want and I take it as truth by now 😄
[01:41:30] 	  I'm calling from Providence, Rhode Island
[01:41:37] 	  How is it going
[01:42:19] 	  Is it really him? 👀
[01:42:26] 	  the mystical i18n contributor?
[01:42:38] 	  I'm not much of a Miraheze user,  but I translate a lot of its extensions on translatewiki.net into Hebrew, and I occasionally send fixes to those messages on GitHub.
[01:42:48] 	  So yes, it's really the mystical i18n contributor.
[01:43:00] 	  Welcome, kind stranger!
[01:45:04] 	  [1/2] I can't connect to anyserver, as it doesn't find anything
[01:45:04] 	  [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1198805499638992987/image.png?ex=65c03d9f&is=65adc89f&hm=6e38b720f0bbead386a9535d44deca3d0965ecee406a11d4f96cd424e65e578a&
[01:45:22] 	  [1/2] There's this recently modified message: https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=MediaWiki%3AMiraheze-landing-footer-desc%2Fen&diff=12172378&oldid=10438043
[01:45:22] 	  [2/2] I have a couple of questions about it.
[01:45:42] 	  I think you might've clicked the button which tries to add the bot to your very own Discord server
[01:45:51] 	  One: Is it really supposed to have spaces in the beginning of the lines?
[01:46:33] 	  probably not, it's the message at the very bottom in the footer 
[01:46:37] 	  Two: It has this link: `[https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/|Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-SA 4.0)]` . If it's wikitext, it's probably not so valid. Maybe it's OK in some other markup language, but in wikitext, it shouldn't have a pipe in the middle.
[01:47:19] 	  It's not wikitext but we tried to imitate it when adding internationalization support for our home page
[01:47:28] 	  It's all made in house, not CMS powered
[01:49:30] 	  Both of those versions are technically valid due to how translaters were doing it I had to make the normal MW way valid also when making that, but both should work.
[01:50:09] 	  [1/2] I guessed that it's the thing on https://miraheze.org/ , but the thing is that when I go there, it insists on showing me that page in Hebrew. It's ok as a default because my browser is set to request Hebrew (Accept-Language in technical terms), but if I'm trying to change it to English, I still see Hebrew. I try clicking on "Hebrew" in the four button in the middle of the page on the
[01:50:09] 	  [2/2]  orange background, and I select "English", and the page reloads, and it's still in Hebrew 🤷‍♂️
[01:51:12] 	  It defaults to default browser language yeah. And it doesn't use storage to store selection that only uses query parameters and nothing more. It could use improving though.
[01:51:57] 	  OK, I'll try to send a fix, but please test it carefully. It's less trivial that the usual pull requests I send.
[01:52:49] 	  Sure, also I just realized it actually goes to / which is really just ?lang= but rewritten for normalization in nginx.
[01:53:00] 	  I forgot I did that.
[01:53:21] 	  "You currently don't have the Manage Server permission on any servers, are you logged into the correct account?"
[01:56:47] 	  Wrote a fix: https://github.com/miraheze/landing/pull/128
[02:13:45] 	  In general, the reason I make all those little fixes is that I'm one of the translatewiki administrators, and I want everything to be as easy as possible for all the awesome volunteer translators. If the message is written well, it's generally good for the users in all languages including English, and it's also easier to translate and less prone to translation errors.
[02:14:10] 	  I also try to keep the translation of MediaWiki core and all the extensions into Hebrew at 100%, so I see pretty much all the messages in all the extensions sooner or later.
[04:46:51] 	 Hi
[04:47:18] 	 is there anyone available to check for RequestImportDumpQueue? Thanks
[04:48:54] 	 hi
[04:49:10] 	  thats me!!
[04:51:51] 	  I think that @orduin
[04:53:10] 	  What number? I can process one real quick before I go for the night.
[04:53:40] 	 oh they disconnected...
[04:55:35] 	 I guess I will go and handle them tomorrow.
[04:56:25] 	 huh that one message didn't relay... 9:53 PM <+ CosmicAlpha> oh they disconnected...
[04:57:09] 	  Relay seems quite delayed Discord side right now...
[07:11:41] 	  phew https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment
[07:21:25] 	  if wiki changes subdomain/db name, but is already submitted in search console, it needs just to set up redirect in it, like in case of getting custom domain?
[07:24:19] 	 Yes
[07:24:35] 	 You can ask SRE to put a redirect in google console
[07:24:41] 	 It's optional
[07:39:37] 	  Does anyone know what 3 of the { symbols mean on a wiki? (i.e. {{{Example}}})
[07:39:37] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bExample 
[07:47:40] 	 A variable within a template
[07:52:36] 	  [1/3] what Rhinos said
[07:52:37] 	  [2/3] you might need to check this
[07:52:37] 	  [3/3] [[mw:Help:Templates]]
[07:52:37] 	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates
[07:52:37] 	  
[10:41:56] 	  [1/2] unusual support request, higher up volunteer needed to answer
[10:41:56] 	  [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1198937402153123961
[11:39:54] 	  @pneuma01 I'm from Japan, so I want to ask you some general questions. Can you accept DM?
[13:09:57] 	  do we have phab task for ongoing broken images?
[14:06:14] 	  @Meta-Wiki Administrators https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Copyright_Policy should be protected
[14:09:22] 	  Will do
[14:33:24] 	  https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Second_Attempt_to_Shut_down_the_Horrible_Music_Wiki why is a reception wiki on Miraheze?
[14:33:54] 	  cc: @Stewards
[14:34:14] 	  Not all the reception wikis were shut down
[14:34:29] 	  ....
[14:35:37] 	  why?
[14:36:54] 	  I'll check back later
[14:37:10] 	  It's supposedly become a place of hate, which violates numerous clauses, so probably should be closed anyway
[14:37:14] 	  thanks
[14:39:39] 	  Qualitypedia shut itself down, the rest stayed
[14:39:54] 	  and no new reception wikis were accepted since
[14:40:20] 	  🤦‍♂️
[14:40:51] 	  I got logged out twice today right before my eyes 😩
[14:41:38] 	  this has happened to me too...
[14:41:48] 	  I remember it was a subject of investigation pre-June 2023
[14:41:57] 	  but after the mess it got lost in the suffle
[14:43:41] 	  I'm going close that RfC. It was drafted in November, some votes came in even though it wasn't open and now it's being opened by someone who has nothing to do with the initial drafting. Before having an RfC, Stewards should at least be asked to investigate
[14:44:41] 	  yep
[14:44:42] 	  ty
[14:46:44] 	  Both proposals were very flawed as well
[14:48:11] 	  There wasn't really any reason cited why backups shouldn't be provided. The only reason I could really see for not providing backups is if there's illegal content. And the second calling for the deletion of individual pages was just strange
[14:49:22] 	  Probably so
[14:56:42] 	  [1/2] I just finished work, checked the RfC
[14:56:43] 	  [2/2] Thank you Reception
[14:56:55] 	  [1/3] the wording at the beginning of the RfC may need to be changed
[14:56:55] 	  [2/3] > and issues
[14:56:55] 	  [3/3] this is easily misunderstood by unfamiliar users
[16:09:02] 	  anyone know how to clear all templates? I tried using wikipedia ones and they did not show properly and now they just are just cluttering the templates namespace
[16:15:57] 	  Unless it radically changed in recent months, thisis not correct
[16:18:18] 	  It is far from the only one still at mira
[16:19:18] 	  hate/toxicity/insults - maybe not, i’m taking others’ word on it
[16:19:23] 	  100%
[16:23:06] 	  Personal review is best
[16:23:49] 	  Most people who actively rage against the wiki are repeat offenders or have a wider bone to pick
[16:23:51] 	  of course - planned to look a bit more into it later today but didn’t have the time this morning
[16:25:20] 	  Hardware/cache limitations, it's another 'new hardware will fix it' type issue.
[16:29:26] 	  Special:Nuke, and point it at the Template namespace would be the dead-quickest option
[16:29:29] 	  It will, quite literally, delete everything, but that might be fastest
[16:30:57] 	  [1/3] Documented on:
[16:30:57] 	  [2/3] https://meta.wikitide.org/wiki/Help:Reception_wikis
[16:30:57] 	  [3/3] If you want a micro-primer on the history
[16:31:27] 	  https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1199028565832908860/image.png?ex=65c10d5e&is=65ae985e&hm=41405148ab4e972968a19e38725cf9e588208e19d41c6f4b6aec769725ecb124&
[16:31:38] 	  @sre fix asap \>:(
[16:32:04] 	  As said above, the ban on new reception wikis grandfathered in the least-problematic of those remaining, but many have fallen into inactivity over the time since.
[16:32:08] 	  always great timing when you're trying to save an edit
[16:33:28] 	  will definitely look at this later
[16:33:49] 	 I have a possible fix, just wire 1M to the WikiTide foundation and all 50x will go away
[16:34:15] 	  Thanks to Tali for their contributions to the helpdoc.
[16:40:56] 	 https://github.com/sponsors/miraheze#sponsors is in need of updating I think
[16:41:31] 	 for example mediawiki-archived shouldn't be in the featured work section
[16:41:54] 	  They're called reception wikis because they describe the reception a product/service/media property has gotten?
[16:42:15] 	  no, they themselves rate said product, service, or media
[16:42:26] 	  er, well, I misread your comment
[16:42:29] 	  yes technically
[16:42:34] 	  and they also rate it themselves
[16:42:39] 	  Got it
[16:42:57] 	  Orange_Star: will update
[16:45:08] 	  k thanks
[16:46:40] 	  I have more than 1,000 themplates and its only showing one
[16:47:08] 	  [1/2] what I put in
[16:47:08] 	  [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1199032513146925077/Screenshot_2024-01-22_114646.png?ex=65c1110c&is=65ae9c0c&hm=3f59896fff183610cefa873545600ed1616429da946632d3d877075c45c0c1c3&
[16:47:17] 	  [1/2] only shows one
[16:47:17] 	  [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1199032548609761371/Screenshot_2024-01-22_114653.png?ex=65c11114&is=65ae9c14&hm=9675ed148291d6461b6bc2c3fc0069c0f746fc2bc66bcdb771d2a560141572e7&
[16:52:56] 	  Because they make bullet point lists of everything they can think of as to why something is good/bad. Simple, addictive formula occasionally sprinkled with a source or backed by wider perception
[17:01:12] 	  Oh bummer, it's probably because it only grabsthings within the last 90 days from recent changes. 😦
[17:01:57] 	  In that case, let me see what other options might be available...
[17:03:06] 	  it was only three to four days ago. could it be it does not read import logs?
[17:03:20] 	  That could be, yes.
[17:08:46] 	  Yes that's it
[17:17:26] 	  [1/2] @reception123, hi, I just noticed that you closed the RfCP RfC I made (I didn't even receive a courtesy ping!). While I realise that a lot of time had indeed passed without any comment, I can't see why it couldn't (and indeed shouldn't) have been treated as a special case because requests to advertise it fell on deaf ears (why are people going to comment on something they don't even 
[17:17:26] 	  [2/2] know exists?!) and it was opened at a time when most people who used to actively take part in commenting on RfCs were either inactive/had retired. The latter of which is no longer true. It's very disrespectful as well.
[17:21:40] 	  Looks like this won't be fixable with the tools I have at my disposal, my next-best options to suggest would be to file a ticket on https://phabricator.miraheze.org or to explore what Auto Wiki Browser might allow you to accomplish.
[17:22:30] 	  k thanks
[17:28:45] 	  auto wiki browser would be like, semi automated
[17:29:24] 	  yeah, imperfect, but saves some of the manual clicking. 😦
[17:30:54] 	  yeah
[17:42:54] 	  why fanon wikis get a ban?
[17:43:14] 	  ?
[17:43:16] 	  I remember something among the lines that fanfication is a big no in UK
[17:43:38] 	  [[Content Policy/2024]]
[17:43:38] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Content_Policy/2024
[17:43:39] 	  
[17:44:13] 	  this is WikiTide content policy??
[17:44:22] 	  Oh, that isn't official, that's Harej working to consolidate WT's language
[17:44:28] 	  That's confusing though.
[17:45:01] 	  @serverlessharej , let's maybe do that elsewhere, as that could get construed as active policy.
[17:45:14] 	  How can I label that as a draft?
[17:45:20] 	  Template:Draft, i think
[17:45:21] 	  add {{Draft}}
[17:45:21] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Draft 
[17:45:25] 	  ^
[17:45:26] 	  
[17:45:40] 	  https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Draft
[17:45:56] 	  Template:Policy_draft
[17:48:09] 	  Tali, you'll have to deal w/ that Polish guy by yourself, he completely ignored my request to post on community portal
[17:49:47] 	  all these are newbie questions
[17:50:08] 	  the only Polish speaking Mira user I know here is CreationKeeper
[18:07:59] 	  Hi. I'm sorry for not doing a courtesy ping, the close was part of my work towards clearing SRE and Steward backlogs and I didn't think about that. I'm not sure how you would've wanted me to advertise it more? My idea would've been that if you still felt like the RfC was needed/relevant you could reopen it. I certainly didn't mean any disrespect.
[18:14:08] 	  Admittedly, I would likely have closed it in the exact same fashion.   Open since mid-Sept with no action, while other RfCs/RfPs have opened, received votes and closed in the time between without advertisment.  Your point about a courtesy ping is well-taken, we'll incorporate that going forward.
[18:16:50] 	  I would personally recommend against reopening just yet, we're developing a new foundation vs community policy distinction that will also impact RfC process, this should be coming up for community review soon and may shape how you want to approach any potential future RfC policy RfC.
[18:27:54] 	  [1/3] I sent this message a very long time ago requesting advertisement, which as I said above was completely ignored: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/407537962553966603/1157929166382047242 . Besides, it is convention to advertise RfCs that affect the global community via CentralNotice so I don't really get why you, as a Steward, wouldn't know how 
[18:27:54] 	  [2/3] to advertise RfCs, TBH. 
[18:27:54] 	  [3/3] Regarding reopening, does it mean you are giving me the go-ahead for doing so?
[18:29:08] 	  Oh, and you should have been notified of that message as a Discord mod at the time, if I an not mistaken.
[18:30:36] 	  if it's a finished RfC then feel free to reopen
[18:31:24] 	  an RfC that was opened a week ago was able to muster enough votes so I'm sure your RfC will be able to too
[18:36:00] 	  [1/2] It's not really convention to have a CentralNotice for every RfCs, in fact they are quite rare. For example, my latest translation RfC didn't get any CentralNotice or Discord announcement and people still voted for it, as Agent said as well. The reality is only RfCs that have a major impact will get an annoucement/CN. There's many users who don't appreciate 
[18:36:00] 	  [2/2] that many CentralNotices and who simply want to focus on their wikis, so having one for every RfC would be excessive and would have the opposite effect.
[18:36:16] 	  As for the message, I didn't notice it as at the time I wasn't actively participating. I can assure you that there was really no negative intent here
[18:37:20] 	  if we had a centralnotice for every RFC there would be nonstop centralnotices
[18:37:33] 	  there are like 1-2 RFCs per monthg
[18:39:46] 	  a lot of people hate CNs \:/
[18:43:03] 	  You're welcome
[18:43:11] 	  Yeah, we try to only use them for major changes
[18:43:22] 	  For example, the merger was clearly something that needed one
[18:53:11] 	  RfPs are entirely different and required specially quick action at the time. As for RfCs, please do point to a non-controversial RfC and one that did not require quick response that got active participation.
[18:53:38] 	  Where has that policy been discussed?
[18:54:04] 	  What does "finished" mean?
[18:58:54] 	  [1/2] This is a board-level discussion to determine what our legal obligations, policy-wise, are, and which should be explicitly classifed as board.  This has always existed at MH but was never formally stated as such, e.g. SRE and MHL board policy.  One of our goals is to actually allow input via RfC for consideration, something that's been shut down in the past.
[18:58:55] 	  [2/2] Still in drafting phases, but should come up for community review and feedback in the coming weeks.  Nothing I can link just yet.
[18:59:26] 	  Finished as in you feel it's ready to be published
[19:06:32] 	  I did not say all RfCs get CNs at all. And I totally understand and agree with the concerns about publishing too many CNs. However, I don't get why an RfC that concerns how RfCs themselves and conducted does not deserve one. And even if that were the case, understanding why wouldn't it deserve a Meta sitenotice and a Discord announcement is beyond me.
[19:08:17] 	  I'd say it doesn't because it makes no substantive changes to policies that affect wikis, it only affects the details of the process.
[19:08:45] 	  While someone like me is interested in these kind of procedural and process RfCs, I'm sure many users won't be
[19:08:55] 	  and anyone can make an argument that their RfC deserves a CN/announcement
[19:09:22] 	  Oh but I don't think this specific RfC would cause problems with that. Am I missing something?
[19:09:22] 	  I think as long as it's not a major change to a policy that has a direct impact on wikis themselves, there's not enough interest to justify a CN
[19:09:30] 	  A Meta sitenoticecould be appropriate if participation turns out to be low
[19:09:53] 	  In either case, this very conversation and the renewed interest in MH should be enough to get you votes should you reopen it
[19:11:37] 	  Fair enough. Please do advertise it this time via other methods (including Meta sitenotice since this very much affects that) as I am going to reopen it now.
[19:12:43] 	  We'll do a site notice if there's lack of participation, as above.
[19:20:45] 	  Argh, I am not convinced it doesn't deserve a Meta sitenotice but I am not keen to continue arguing with you all so please just add an announcement. Thanks.
[19:22:30] 	  (Announcement being Discord announcement)
[19:27:27] 	  Oh, also please consider un-hiding or removing proposal 3 if re-opened... it got stuck in an odd little collapsed section in the last iteration.
[19:37:19] 	  the policy RfC is really only about rewording, noy changing the policies? the /2024 will be updated?
[19:38:35] 	  also I missed translation policy getting closed lol
[19:49:21] 	  Yes, lots to do on that front before it's ready to go. Anything that's a change beyond wording in final will be called out as such
[21:03:52] 	  I'm confused on the translation reform—are the changes already made? I can translate pages but I thought that was gonna be a restricted thing
[21:04:13] 	  tbh same
[21:24:55] 	  Approved, but still some work to fully implement
[21:34:02] 	  Hey guys, guess who messed up eir templates again. That's right, it's me. What does 'JSON' mean again, because apparently I have a syntax error in JSON.
[21:34:24] 	  JavaScript Object Notation
[21:34:28] 	  Thanks
[21:34:30] 	  [[w:JSON]]
[21:34:30] 	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JSON
[21:34:31] 	  
[21:35:26] 	  doing Template Data?
[21:35:54] 	  Yep
[21:36:23] 	  Was trying to make a template for a gallery slideshow thingy
[21:36:30] 	  It's uh. not going well.
[21:41:20] 	  [1/19] 
[21:41:21] 	  [2/19] {{{Filename1.extension}}}|alt=Image ID: {{{imageid1}}} |{{{Caption1}}}
[21:41:21] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bFilename1.extension 
[21:41:21] 	  [3/19] {{{Filename2.extension}}}|alt=Image ID: {{{imageid2}}} |{{{Caption2}}}
[21:41:21] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bFilename2.extension 
[21:41:21] 	  [4/19] {{{Filename3.extension}}}|alt=Image ID: {{{imageid3}}} |{{{Caption3}}}
[21:41:21] 	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bFilename3.extension 
[21:41:22] 	  [5/19] /gallery
[21:41:22] 	  [6/19] 
[21:41:22] 	  [7/19] 
[21:41:22] 	  [8/19] {
[21:41:23] 	  [9/19]     "params": {
[21:41:23] 	  [10/19]         "Filename1.extension": {},
[21:41:24] 	  [11/19]         "imageid1": {},
[21:41:24] 	  [12/19]         "Caption1": {},
[21:41:25] 	  [13/19]         "Filename2.extension": {},
[21:41:25] 	  [14/19]         "imageid2": {},
[21:41:26] 	  [15/19]         "Caption2": {},
[21:41:26] 	  [16/19]         "Filename3.extension": {},
[21:41:27] 	  [17/19]         "imageid3": {},
[21:41:27] 	  [18/19]         "Caption3": {},
[21:41:28] 	  [19/19]     },
[21:41:37] 	  shortened it a bit to send here but yeah
[21:41:54] 	  What in the nine-
[21:41:59] 	  am I fucking it up
[21:42:02] 	  I have
[21:42:05] 	  Im not sure
[21:42:15] 	  So not a yes
[21:42:38] 	  What’s with the .extension bit?
[21:43:13] 	  to tell people to remember to type the extension in, because I remember that was the bit I was messing up when I was first learning how to insert images
[21:43:27] 	  Shall I try deleting it?
[21:44:40] 	  tried it. didn't work
[21:45:38] 	  Did you close out the templatedata tag, btw?
[21:45:48] 	  Yep! I double checked!
[21:46:03] 	  /templatedata
[21:46:32] 	  I checked it against a template that works, and nothing looks different, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
[21:47:14] 	  Hrm, this doesn't look like the structure I'm used to for template data output.
[21:47:26] 	  Oh, what structure are you used to?
[21:47:27] 	  https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TemplateData#Example
[21:48:13] 	  holy shit that looks so complicated. how are there so many subsets
[21:48:22] 	  I believe your wiki's public, mind linking me the template where it works vs the one where it doesnt?
[21:48:39] 	  [1/2] Looks like the description is before the params there- I'll try that.
[21:48:39] 	  [2/2] Sure! Gimme a sec
[21:49:47] 	  a nudge on the community portal would be a start and I'm sure a week or so should be enough to make a case for a meta notice
[21:50:33] 	  [1/2] The one I'm working on: https://decapedia.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Slideshow?action=submit
[21:50:34] 	  [2/2] The one that works that I was looking at as a comparison: https://decapedia.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Chapter
[21:51:07] 	  Good afternoon guys.
[21:51:15] 	  night
[21:51:20] 	  I want to know something...
[21:52:46] 	  What's the difference between using another font to your wiki via css from a URL which is hosting it, and installing the font directly to your wiki?
[21:54:35] 	  [1/2] The edit template data button comes to the rescue:
[21:54:35] 	  [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1199109880582258800/image.png?ex=65c15919&is=65aee419&hm=a2fd7400f38b6fa7f22629e2700118a36f61e099eb74c1a417f372da8e462195&
[21:55:29] 	  I'm not sure what was wrong with your original formulation, but this worked without issue on my testing
[21:56:05] 	  okay, I'm an idiot- how did I forget that I could just click 'add suggested parameters' and it would fix everything for me
[21:56:12] 	  It's a great button.
[21:56:17] 	  thank you so much for helping me through my forgetfulness lol
[21:56:51] 	  hoorah! I will now install a ridiculous number of pictures
[21:57:49] 	  technically speaking one's an external resource and the other is local, local pulls from mira servers and may prove more reliable depending on where you're looking at the url from but external offloads the (trivial tbh) processing to whatever third party
[21:58:35] 	  I'm not sure mira allows you to just install fonts conventionally since that seems to be something you put into the mw folder
[21:58:49] 	  I know how to link a font to a wiki, but no idea how to install one in a wiki.
[21:59:11] 	  How do you find the "mw folder"?
[21:59:12] 	  at best I'd say a phab task but encourage sre to offer something more appropriate if they see this
[21:59:20] 	  that's the thing, you don't touch the file structure on miraheze
[21:59:32] 	  anything internal is handled by managewiki and I'm pretty sure that's not a managewiki feature
[21:59:52] 	  There's ways around this, but they're complicated and don't always work great.
[22:00:15] 	  Fonts can be uploaded like regular files.
[22:00:25] 	  where does one upload to
[22:00:29] 	  Special:Upload
[22:00:35] 	  just that then link to the url?
[22:00:37] 	  after adding the file extension in ManageWiki
[22:00:52] 	  I believe so.
[22:01:06] 	  there  you have it @johnmcgurkus, worth a shot anyway
[22:01:07] 	  [1/7] Short version:
[22:01:08] 	  [2/7] * Update your allowed file types to include the type of extension your packed font file is
[22:01:08] 	  [3/7] * Upload your font file like a normal file
[22:01:08] 	  [4/7] * @font-face {
[22:01:09] 	  [5/7]     font-family: 'whatever goes here';
[22:01:09] 	  [6/7]     src: url('the static version of your uploaded font file URL');
[22:01:09] 	  [7/7] }
[22:01:14] 	  ^
[22:01:56] 	  [1/2] Just like pulling from Goolge but using Swift url.
[22:01:56] 	  [2/2] (Probably generally a better option because it will be cached by varnish v pulling from Google), but nobody does it these days because if the fonts are big it takes up space.
[22:02:10] 	 <.labster> It seems like a possible use case for commonswiki too
[22:02:17] 	  Too long, didn't font.
[22:02:53] 	  perfect use in fact
[22:03:08] 	 <.labster> If it's something to be used by multiple wikis, in any case.
[22:03:10] 	  finally something that would be applicable to more than wikipedia clones
[22:03:14] 	  That's what Wiki.gg does
[22:03:15] 	  Definitely, though there's some concern there if folks are trying to do one-off customization because they want a fancy letter j or something.
[22:03:48] 	  Don't want WikiSans getting overwritten on a weekly basis by goofballs. 🙂
[22:03:57] 	  (Also concerns that some folks will upload copyrighted fonts and say they are in the PD)
[22:04:05] 	  Very true.
[22:04:39] 	  How do you get the static version? With a picture is easy, but not idea about a font...
[22:04:45] 	  you just click the font when its uploaded and grab the url
[22:04:46] 	  Should still be a 'link to original file on the file page or similar
[22:05:00] 	  Thanks, @originalauthority @notaracham and @raidarr
[22:06:29] 	  Actually, clicking the font will just download it to your computer
[22:06:36] 	  you should right click the font name and then copy the url
[22:06:44] 	  Was about to suggest, that's usually the safest method
[22:06:50] 	 <.labster> I guess our Toki Pona wiki uses both uploaded and google fonts for its mix of glyphs.
[22:08:04] 	 <.labster> Incidentally I was browsing that wiki last night and kind of love it.
[22:08:53] 	 <.labster> It's definitely one of our more educational wikis and as it gets bigger likely a good example for Miraheze.
[22:10:40] 	 <.labster> On another topic, can we get a version of DPL installed on Meta?   I'm thinking of making a page which lists all open votes so people can know what they can vote on.
[22:10:42] 	  Education??? On the internet????
[22:12:21] 	  That's an idea.  Let me do a quick check that there's no incompatibilities I might not be aware of and will get that enabled.
[22:14:16] 	  Can you make a less shitty DPL?
[22:14:26] 	  It's probably performance related
[22:14:29] 	  yeah, DPL is pretty bad sometimes
[22:14:58] 	  Wikimedia DPL would not get installed now if it was going through review today
[22:15:24] 	  I move to enable smw globally 🔨
[22:15:47] 	  Now I remember... what happened about the hacking  incident of Wiki.gg?
[22:15:57] 	  #offtopic
[22:16:05] 	  -> #offtopic
[22:16:22] 	  Oops. Sorry.
[22:16:26] 	  np
[22:16:34] 	  SMW isn't that awful. It just has a few gotchas
[22:16:41] 	  I actually like SMW.
[22:16:45] 	  More than Cargo.
[22:16:57] 	  I've heard special stories about cargo
[22:17:06] 	  We have SMW at work
[22:17:21] 	  Cargo is a Yaron extension
[22:17:21] 	  yeah it is not the most _secure_ of extensions.
[22:17:33] 	  will probably blow up one day.
[22:18:59] 	  _mutters something about a pattern and widgets_
[22:19:22] 	  on another note, isn't graph all patched up now/
[22:19:38] 	  I don't believe so
[22:20:03] 	  _looks at the ticket for adding it back to miraheze_
[22:20:40] 	  maybe that was a diff extension
[22:20:43] 	  I swear I saw that
[22:21:25] 	 <.labster, replying to rhinosf1> Haha I wish
[22:22:14] 	 <.labster> A lot of DPL's performance issues are based on what it's trying to do, and some of these things really are expensive queries.
[22:23:22] 	  Score?
[22:24:00] 	 <.labster> I think it's one of the very few cases where I would recommend a complete rewrite, even knowing the amount of bugs that have already been fixed, because you can be more cautious about how you add and test features.
[22:25:15] 	 <.labster> I was the one who security reviewed DPL3, having completely given up on the spaghetti of DPL2.
[22:25:37] 	  @.labster oh 100%
[22:26:16] 	  I should talk to you before I come up with my plan to replace security reviews @.labster
[22:26:27] 	  Which is basically to scrap pass/fail
[22:26:34] 	  And replace it with a risk rating
[22:26:46] 	  Some of it based on human review, some automated scoring
[22:26:55] 	 <.labster> That's not really replacing, but yeah.
[22:27:12] 	  Generally, the lower the automated score, the more I'd expect a human to review
[22:27:42] 	  And WMF deployed or developed extensions would require little review
[22:27:50] 	 <.labster> Honestly I found XSS bugs in like, oh, 30% of the extensions I reviewed.
[22:28:12] 	  But some of it would also be dynamic so if an extension stopped being maintained, the tool would flag it eventually
[22:28:20] 	 <.labster> Our old policy was that WMF extensions bypassed security review based on the fact that they had many more eyes than we do.
[22:28:46] 	  I plan to effectively categorise it into risks - very low, low, medium, high, very high
[22:29:11] 	 <.labster> The problem is you still need a pass-fail metric to decide whether or not to deploy
[22:29:29] 	 <.labster> I don't think our users will decide based on security, unless they're paranoid like me.
[22:29:44] 	  Very low - you probably don't need to review that close. Low - look carefully but this is probably developed by in a fairly sane manner, medium - review carefully, high - review line by line, very high - no way near prod please
[22:30:45] 	  The idea in my head is the risk ratings would be dynamic and you'd be following a process, for some extensions, they'd be given an automatic pass. Some, a single reviewer could accept. Some, we might require CTO sign off. Some, are listed as too risky.
[22:30:57] 	  Yes, an extensions rating could change
[22:30:58] 	 <.labster> I guess AI is much better now than when I was doing it, but I can't see a reason not to do a line-by-line review.  It's just reading some code.
[22:31:27] 	 <.labster> We have been very bad a tracking changes once installed though
[22:31:40] 	  @.labster it would still be human in the loop
[22:32:04] 	  So you're still carrying out reviews but you'd know hopefully what the risks are
[22:32:21] 	  And you'd hopefully have an idea of what risks we've accepted before
[22:32:40] 	 <.labster, replying to rhinosf1> right, this, so much this
[22:32:47] 	  It should in theory make reviews more consistent & allow better tracking of changes
[22:33:42] 	  So if an extension that was running phan & developed by a WMF staff by theirselves suddenly had CI turned off and someone with no experience take over, it could also tell you that there's been a significant change since install
[22:33:45] 	 <.labster> It sounds cool.  (We really should have had this whole conversation in #tech-community, sorry to confuse you everyone )
[22:33:53] 	  I'm going to sleep soon
[22:34:52] 	  But the basic idea is the automated parts can be run regularly which means we have better oversight of future changes, they should become more consistent, we change from a pass fail to a risk rating and that risk rating indicates who can decide whether we install
[22:35:10] 	  Still with a human in the loop
[22:35:28] 	  The aim is to make a reviewers job easier
[22:47:49] 	  [1/2] I lost the ability to mark edits as minor
[22:47:49] 	  [2/2] Tf did I do
[22:53:13] 	  ...I don't think that's a setting, did it maybe get suppressed by CSS or a wonky adblocker somehow?
[22:53:27] 	  [1/2] Nothing
[22:53:27] 	  [2/2] It's just gone
[22:53:29] 	  Could you check if that's also the case for you on meta.miraheze.org, say on your talk page?
[22:53:57] 	  Pretty sure there is a minor edit right or something like that actually,
[22:54:06] 	  Ah, that could be.  One second...
[22:54:36] 	  No minor edits on meta either
[22:54:37] 	  Yep, there's a minoredit permission
[22:56:18] 	  On most wikis (including meta) it's usually attached to the User role, so you'd need to at least be logged in
[22:56:39] 	  I maintain DPL3 now and I did improve security and performance of it tenfold with caching, etc... but it can still be quite expensive sometimes. I'd recommend holding off on Meta until new infraz unless you only use it in places without extremely high traffic I guess.
[22:56:41] 	  Ahfound it
[22:57:22] 	  Nice, thanks for pulling out the permissions deeplore, Gummiel.  I'd completely spaced that was a thing.
[22:58:12] 	  Yeah it's fixed now
[22:58:28] 	  I guess me doing a perm purge messed that up
[23:01:54] 	 <.labster, replying to cosmicalpha> I can take a look at it again, if there's something you think there needs to be added.
[23:04:57] 	  It is a pretty odd one to exist imo, like what could ever be the actual harm in allowing anyone that are allowed to edit to mark it as minor too?
[23:05:27] 	  I imagine there's a story there, because it probably came up at least once.
[23:05:53] 	  suppress redirect is another one I try and remember
[23:06:21] 	  in one case it's absolutely vital so I don't have to dig through 5-6 level deep redirects because pages move around too often