[00:00:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc, replying to rodejong> Oh yeah I forgot about those, they're nice
[00:01:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> <nowiki> tags means the parser just output anything inside it as is, doesn't do anything fancy with (meaning parser functions, page transclusions, links etc inside it wont work ofc)
[00:03:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> [1/2] My preload looks like this <!--stuff-->.  I either have to make it look exactly like that, no white space after the > and so the user editing his page has to type right after the > or I can add newlines after it, so that the user starts his text on a fresh line.  The latter is what I want to do, but I don't want his user page to thereby start with something unexpected, like a b
[00:03:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> [2/2] ig blob of blank lines.
[00:03:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> (And to test this out, I would have to create multiple user pages, one for each test of the preload.  Which would be an absolute royal pain since I'd also have to create multiple users.)
[00:04:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> &nbsp; ?
[00:05:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [1/6] I mean yeah the only 2 options I know, as I said would be either:
[00:05:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [2/6] ```<!--stuff
[00:05:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [3/6] -->```
[00:05:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [4/6] or
[00:05:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [5/6] ```<!--stuff--><nowiki>
[00:05:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [6/6] /nowiki```
[00:05:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Just add  a few &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
[00:05:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018, replying to rodejong> Definitely not.  I want to NOT create spacing.
[00:06:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018, replying to gummiel> Neither of those would let the user start on a fresh line.
[00:06:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> So the question is whether blank lines before anything else have any effect.
[00:07:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> But why start on a 2nd line?
[00:08:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> well not really no, and there really is nothing you can do about that really, that is just how the software works, and yes it can be infuriating at times, the amount of empty <p>/p blocks I had to hunt down is insane... specially once you start using conditionals in templates, that can sometimes output nothing in some circumstances
[00:09:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Oh I've been bitten by that one too.  But I would have thought that leading blank lines would just be ignored.  But I haven't seen anything that says that definitively, though it is implied for many contexts.
[00:10:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018, replying to rodejong> Because my cruft and the user's text really should be separate.
[00:11:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> well what happens is that 2 blank lines is considered a new paragraph (which is what a p tag is), and a since a comment is not outputting anything to the final page is is considered a blank line, so if you make a newline both before and after it, you would have 2 blank lines in the output
[00:11:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> that is at least how I understand it
[00:13:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Sure.  But what does starting a new paragraph affect at the very start of the text?  In HTML-land, it would not add blank lines.  But I don't know about wiki code.
[00:16:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> well it not technically make a line in the HTML sure, but it for margins around it to create the paragraph spacing, when used as intended, and this is what gives the empty space from empty p tags
[00:16:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Now I think on it, this would also be impossible to test because it could well depend on what kind of thing the user types and there's no way to check all the possibilities.  So either I find where the behavior is documented or I assume that the newlines are a bad idea.
[00:18:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> What I meant is that if you do something like <body>...white space....<p> in HTML, the white space is completely irrelevant to the displayed output.  That's part of the HTML spec.  But HTML isn't wiki code so that's hardly useful.
[00:19:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> The best that testing could do me is find a case where the newlines break something. 🙂
[00:22:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [1/3] well yeah that is what I says the parser (the thing converting wikitext to HTML created am empty p block when there is 2 blank lines (or even more accurartly when there is a blank line with nothing special after it, as that would indicate you want a new paragraph in your text, so if that next line is bland is when you get the empty p tag)
[00:22:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [2/3] the p tag in the CSS then have margins around it, so while the p tag is empty it got space around it both top and bottom.
[00:22:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to billblake2018> [3/3] So you would have to be able to indeed to type in raw html which ofc for security reasons you can't, which is why we have the parser
[00:23:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Does it create the <p>/p for newlines at the start of the text?
[00:26:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> [1/2] as long as there are no other output on the line I believe it creates the p block yes (a comment is ignored, thus considered no output, likewise parser functions can sometimes create no output too, if so it is also well no output  etc etc (Do take what I say with a grain of salt, never actually looked at the code, so this is from either experience on my own wiki of what I heard with 
[00:26:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel> [2/2] others though)
[00:31:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> If that's the case, I should be able to do something like \n\n==something== and there will be a <p>/p before the section header, and this should show up when not preloading...which makes it testable.
[00:33:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> What if you add it in the MediaWiki:  ?
[00:33:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Shouldn't make any difference.  And test done:  The newlines at the start create white space.  So I can't have them in my preload.
[00:33:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Like in a footer
[00:34:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> If x = x then X else Y
[00:34:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> how come miraheze uses templates when in wikipedia u can directly enter the infobox
[00:35:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> im not sure what code to put into the template, it usually doesnt translate correctly
[00:35:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Because Wikipedia uses Modules and templates, that are dependend on many others
[00:35:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [[Infoboxes]]
[00:35:30] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Infoboxes
[00:35:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Infoboxes>
[00:35:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <billblake2018> Isn't there an infobox extension one can enable?
[00:35:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret, replying to billblake2018> Yes but it is very limited
[00:35:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> We provide simpler boxes that are not dependend.
[00:36:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> If you want to use Wikipedia's Modules, and styles...
[00:36:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> Is it possible to export an infobox from another miraheze wiki and put it into your own?
[00:36:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> https://jwmeeting.miraheze.org/wiki/Help:Installing_Infoboxes_from_Wikipedia
[00:36:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> Thank you
[00:37:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Don't thank me yet 😄
[00:39:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> [1/2] On the actual wiki page
[00:39:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210022967199666217/image.png?ex=65e90cb4&is=65d697b4&hm=2368013cebb8281c257ad6c0557a98d87a8182720df5e30332cb97912b988d0e&
[00:39:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> It's either this or what I've put into the template
[00:39:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> I'm gonna have another read of the other doc one sec
[00:39:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Link?
[00:40:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> [1/2] https://transperthroblox.miraheze.org/wiki/Jxrrqd
[00:40:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> [2/2] https://transperthroblox.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_jxrrqd
[00:41:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Template:Infobox jxrrqd is empty??
[00:41:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> ah, you blanked it
[00:42:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret, replying to rodejong> urr rhold on
[00:42:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> /jxrrqd has to be /title
[00:43:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/3] ```<title source="jxrrqd">
[00:43:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/3] <default>{{PAGENAME}}/default
[00:43:31] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:PAGENAME 
[00:43:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [3/3] /title```
[00:44:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> ah okay
[00:44:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jerret> wow thank you
[00:44:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> you're welcome
[02:37:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> 🛌 💤
[05:35:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> What's the best way to donate?
[05:35:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Wanted to make a donation, wasn't sure exactly where
[05:35:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Saw PayPal, GitHub, Donorbox, Ko-Fi
[06:09:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to bwm0> GitHub gives the best rates to us, but anywhere is good
[06:10:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to .labster> GitHub it probably is
[07:43:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <sailworldbuilds> [1/4] Quick syntax question. I've got a line on a template that reads:
[07:43:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <sailworldbuilds> [2/4] `|  data88 = {{#if:{{{population_est|}}}|{{fix comma category|{{formatnum:{{replace|{{{population_est}}}|,|}}}}}} }}`
[07:43:49] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/%23if:Template:%7b%7b%7bpopulation_est 
[07:43:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <sailworldbuilds> [3/4] I want to be able to write a number for {{{population_est}}} and then give a rank afterwards (e.g. [US: 11th]), but it's throwing out a non-numeric formatnum argument warning because it is (correctly) looking at the rank and including in formatnum. How could I exclude anything text after I've entered something for {{{population_est}}}? I feel like this is an easy problem to s
[07:43:49] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bpopulation_est 
[07:43:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <sailworldbuilds> [4/4] olve but I'm blanking on the syntax that should follow. Will make a thread if necessary to avoid congesting up this chat.
[08:42:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> [1/3] does anyone know why the small thumbnail on left doesn't get updated into new image on the right? i've updated it from long time ago but the small thumbnail is still old image
[08:42:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> [2/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210144451100545074/image.png?ex=65e97dd8&is=65d708d8&hm=23e551762dee7d0b5715458729eb4ea1a40edaab5ae25173645ac358c765c2d8&
[08:42:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> [3/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210144451473965096/image.png?ex=65e97dd8&is=65d708d8&hm=9b14c90f9b2848552cfc8a5afcf0f44d2e227f926f7b6a10ea780de5212afcc4&
[08:46:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> Tried purging the page cache?
[09:08:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> huh, it's fixed. didn't know the cache stays that long, i updated it from last month
[09:08:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> cache for images stay forever if you don't purge?
[09:10:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Images are tricky since they cna also get cached locally in browser
[09:20:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <yorki> hmm, seems really tricky 🤔
[09:34:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> New image seems better
[09:36:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster, replying to sailworldbuilds> The easiest way would be at add a separate {{{population_rank}}} parameter
[09:36:57] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bpopulation_rank 
[09:37:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> The hard way would try to do some string functions to extract the numeric part of what you sent to the template
[10:01:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [1/3] Is there a way to have a template show another image if the requested image does not exist?
[10:01:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [2/3] I do {{TemplateName|Image1}}, but "Image1" does not exist
[10:01:10] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:TemplateName 
[10:01:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [3/3] So the template outputs File:Image2.jpg
[10:02:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc, replying to skeptic2726> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:ParserFunctions##ifexist Maybe this?
[10:03:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> Thats what I'm reading currently. im just a bit confused as to how I would pull it off since my input is a subpage, not a page
[10:03:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> At least I'm on the right track. I can fiddle a bit
[10:08:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> there `#ifexist` function, but it has a side effect - a link to non existent image will appear in Special:WantedPages (it's a very old bug, still not fixed by devs)
[10:08:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> but
[10:10:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> My wiki is pretty miniscule, so that wont be too impactful. Thank you.
[10:14:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> Oof. There's a limit of #ifexist per page. That's super unfortunate.
[10:15:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> Yeah that's also pretty :(
[10:15:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> I'm doing a collection wiki. I'm going to be listing 200+ items per page. Hmm
[10:16:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> Oh yeah ouch
[10:16:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> Could you like, make 200 templates with one #ifexist per template and then call all 200 templates on a single page? XD /hj
[10:17:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> A few years ago, I would have been smoothbrained enough to do this lol
[10:17:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> Do it for the memes
[10:20:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> yeah it's an expensive function
[10:25:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <hundvalpen> i cant edit my wiki, did i fail to make edits for to long?
[10:26:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [1/5] Hot Wheels collection.
[10:26:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [2/5] Before I get further into this; I'm trying to not just use a massive table, its a bit dried out of an approach.
[10:26:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [3/5] Each one of these "tiles" is 1 use of 4 different templates. There may be upwards of 500 tiles depending on category.
[10:26:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [4/5] Will this amount of template usage be an issue?
[10:26:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [5/5] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210170829107757056/image.png?ex=65e99669&is=65d72169&hm=5e6775b0d8e47a872821032c944eec3858381703d6d54c1bf069875d646d881d&
[10:28:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <hundvalpen> oh its working now :D
[10:28:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <hundvalpen> idk why it wasnt work xd
[10:31:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> You might want to look into DPL for listing stuff automatically, though it has a limkt of 500 iirc. Pagination is possible tho!
[10:32:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> And you can make each subpage display as a template with certain inputs
[10:33:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Depending on how comfortable you are with code you can also use lua to store data, but I wouldn't recommend it if you didn't do any programming previously
[10:34:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> My wiki is about a game with 140+ dragons and both DPL and lua work well for this. DPL needs a brief documentation read to learn, but much easier than lua for sure
[10:36:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> If you want I can tell you about a custom template that basically does what ifexist does without a limit, it's certainly hacky and has its drawbacks but works 😆 so let me know if that's something interesting for you
[10:38:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to jeb_cc> That wouldn't work afaik. The limit is checked for expanded templates as well I think?
[10:40:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> Isn't the limit only for expensive templates?
[10:40:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> ifexist is an expensive oarserfunction
[10:41:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> Ah, missed that part.  Right.
[10:42:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [1/2] I don't even know what DPL and LUA are. So probably not an option right now. 
[10:42:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [2/2] If I'm able to use 500+ templates  on a page, and a single template 200+ times (potentially 500+ when the collection is complete) on a single page. I should be okay.
[10:42:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> If that's not possible. I can go back to using a table. I just think it's overused
[10:44:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DynamicPageList  and Lua is a language used for https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Scribunto modules
[10:44:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> [1/2] Yeah, wouldn't want to owerwhelm you here. DPL is an extension that allows to lost pages/subpages etc. automatically, and you can display them as templates for example. So you wouldn't have to lizt them manually if their pages already exist
[10:44:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> [2/2] Lua is a programming language that cn be used on wikis in scripts called modules
[10:44:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Labster was faster hehe
[10:44:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> I wrote less.
[10:47:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> The weird thing is that checking if a whole group of pages exists isn't slow at all -- it's what we do every time to get redlinks.  It's doing in the middle of the parse, one by one, which makes it expensive, instead of all together at the end.
[10:48:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> SKL tried to make a module but it didn't worked for us
[10:48:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Interesting
[10:48:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> when she asked for help in MW server they said everything is correct, it just doesn't work on Mira for some reason
[10:48:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I forgot for what exactly it was made tho
[10:49:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> ah, remembered
[10:49:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> categorization in infoboxes
[10:49:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> we had a lot of nested #if's
[10:49:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> You theoretically could. It depends on how heavy the templates are
[10:50:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> Can someone lend me an example of DPL usage? It looks like I could learn this relatively quickly.
[10:51:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to xenareee> [1/2] After you preview a page while editing you get some stats. This is what you should be worried about with many templates
[10:51:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to xenareee> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210176997050028042/image.png?ex=65e99c28&is=65d72728&hm=9f242c3ebd36af77875fd532a56405278a18249d3dbe44fa0671046211e75b43&
[10:51:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> time usage too actually
[10:53:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> DPL is only going to show pages that exist, and skip over any that aren't created.  Is that good with you?
[10:54:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> Oh. I don't think so.
[10:55:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> This page is functioning as a checklist. I need to see what I dont have in my collection to know what I need.
[10:56:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> You could have pages for models you don't have too. But yeah it's an important thing to note
[10:57:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [1/15] <https://dragontamer.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Attack_Page>
[10:57:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [2/15] The template is quite complex so I'll just cite the dpl bit
[10:57:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [3/15] ```
[10:57:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [4/15] == Dragons with this Skill ==
[10:57:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [5/15] <center>
[10:57:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [6/15] {{#dpl:
[10:57:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [7/15] |category=Dragons&DPL3-nonlanguage
[10:57:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [8/15] |namespace=Dragon
[10:57:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [9/15] |includesubpages=false
[10:57:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [10/15] |ordermethod=sortkey
[10:57:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [11/15] |linksto=DPL3-skill-{{PAGENAME}}
[10:57:22] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:PAGENAME 
[10:57:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [12/15] |format=,²{Index Piece¦%TITLE%}²
[10:57:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [13/15] }}
[10:57:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [14/15] ```
[10:57:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to skeptic2726> [15/15] DPL being after center
[10:58:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> there's some shenanigans with linksto and categories but I hope it helps show how it's used
[11:00:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [1/2] Thank you. This will be a bit of weekend reading.
[11:00:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <skeptic2726> [2/2] I think going back to a table for the moment is the best option. That way time is not completely wasted if alternatives fail.
[11:00:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc, replying to xenareee> Ooh, you own the dragontamer wiki? :o That's so cool. (I wish I could get into the game but I'd need way more time in my life for that lol) I love the look of the wiki though, so clean!
[11:00:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Yeah! And thanks :pupCoffeeMH:
[11:00:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> need to add the newest dragon still
[11:03:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> That’s a nice looking wiki @xenareee
[11:03:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jeb_cc> It's so easy to get overwhelmed here, everyone is so talented or skilled 😭
[11:22:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <.labster> We're not that skilled, just more experienced.
[11:30:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <knavepunk> Hi, could somebody please let me know how the drop-down table of relevant articles at the bottom of an article is coded? I've tried to find the relevant documentation and looked at the source code on examples of the table I'm talking about, but I'm finding it a bit confusing.
[11:33:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Link?
[11:34:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> It's probably part of the skin yu chose
[11:36:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> I cannot help atm, but I think they mean a navbox
[11:37:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <knavepunk, replying to xenareee> that's exactly what i was looking for! thank you, i think i can take it from here now i have that lead :)
[12:26:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> [1/2] not to dump more on ya @kiju1108, but there are some standing requests pending here
[12:26:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_reopening_wikis
[12:29:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kiju1108> will check
[12:54:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Ach What was the MeidiWiki:page that puts the information template in the Upload screen?
[12:54:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Can't remember
[13:00:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> nvm, found it: MediaWiki:Upload-default-description
[13:48:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> [1/2] cc @clockworky  btw as you're the only vaguely alive allpedia admin I know about
[13:48:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> [2/2] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Steward_requests#Allpedia
[14:06:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> anyone got good ideas or examples for visual roadmaps
[14:06:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that can be done on a wiki
[14:09:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> or maybe it's possible to embed something like trello even
[14:10:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> although idk how good that'd be for users to check out
[14:27:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Roadmaps, like maps?
[14:27:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> or Katographer?
[14:27:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> For what kind of pages?
[14:28:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to kojobailey> Or do you mean like [[w:voy:]]?
[14:28:25] <wm-bot>	 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/voy:
[14:28:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/voy:>
[14:28:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> project roadmaps, I guess
[14:29:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> don't know that
[14:29:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> sorta like what Miarheze has on issue-tracker
[14:30:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> when you click on tags it opens projects
[14:30:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <feliipezzz> hi! yesterday i made a steward's request to undelate a wiki, apparently is done but when i open the wiki, it says its deleted, do i have to wait a determinated spare of time until it's available?
[14:30:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> yeah
[14:30:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> plan
[14:30:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> could you link me to that?
[14:30:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> Link to that?
[14:31:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> [1/2] it's issue-tracker.miraheze.org
[14:31:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> [2/2] aka Phabricator lol
[14:31:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> *Phorge
[14:31:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> but I don't know if it's possible to implement on wiki
[14:31:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> yeah, now it's Phorge
[14:31:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> confusing lol
[14:32:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> Well mw doesn't really have the concept of tasks and tasks being linked to each other
[14:32:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> which is how we do stuff there
[14:32:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> but where on Phorge?
[14:33:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to feliipezzz> [1/2] how much time have passed between the wiki getting opened and you seeing that?
[14:33:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to feliipezzz> [2/2] there's a chance wiki decided to close itself again because no edits were made after opening
[14:33:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to rodejong> [1/2] click on tags? I'm just talking about concept
[14:33:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to rodejong> [2/2] Trello is another similar thing
[14:34:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <feliipezzz, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> i guess around 9-10 hours
[14:34:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> there's my personal Phorge workboard for example: https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/tag/orangestar/
[14:34:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] ah okay this is cool
[14:34:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210233236693979226/image.png?ex=65e9d088&is=65d75b88&hm=6db58833ff8e4bbaf9803aa32e8b06852c6cfc388737921d1e4c78e7d78ac3a2&
[14:34:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> but yeah, i need something i can actually use on my wiki
[14:37:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to feliipezzz> sorry, I'm getting busy, someone please check the request
[14:41:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/3] Ah okay, 
[14:41:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/3] I thought you meant from a real map
[14:41:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [3/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210234924150427689/image.png?ex=65e9d21a&is=65d75d1a&hm=15303707040dc13a98e0e8dd0552694b8daa1d2fdd9acf50a149684911785c86&
[16:45:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow, replying to kojobailey> [1/2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Graphical_timeline
[16:45:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow, replying to kojobailey> [2/2] I'm assuming what your looking for is something like this?
[16:46:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> nah
[16:46:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that's like
[16:46:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> a timeline for history
[16:46:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> a roadmap is more vague in timings, and should be able to display multiple things concurrently
[16:47:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] this is a shitty-looking example that gets the point across lol
[16:47:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210266561710137344/update-on-modding-roadmap-v0-ny55xxiwxkta1.png?ex=65e9ef91&is=65d77a91&hm=619d89b05fd5c30dda56b529b595fee61ff1907c43eed674f048f1cf44f5d4d6&
[16:47:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] this one's more professional looking (but also kinda boring)
[16:47:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210266640227377162/c512becccd30385e66aaf43020755bd9.png?ex=65e9efa4&is=65d77aa4&hm=3f335aa2f1bba90f70462653f1e6a42629a6ba29f91c29ba00ab0edb182bfa1c&
[16:48:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] maybe something like this where you can hover to reveal more details
[16:48:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210266765343461396/Roadmap-1280-UPW7gbPOUHqu2qOqSI8Q.png?ex=65e9efc2&is=65d77ac2&hm=626ab6a30126c3b67d169d9526eb983cc7cfefdea1abb150c538eff45303c980&
[16:48:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> however you can do that
[16:50:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> maybe that'd be too user-unfriendly though, so any ideas are appreciated
[16:51:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] i quite like this actually
[16:51:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210267733963571240/image.png?ex=65e9f0a9&is=65d77ba9&hm=41fdb1bc13e420119a020bcfdeddcd608d21206ff8d4675f447b49cce8a94a19&
[16:52:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> a more abstract map that you can click on for more details
[16:52:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I can only guess w/ some Lua black magic
[16:53:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> but we've made just an algorithm image for infobox instruction lol
[16:53:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> https://tenor.com/view/arnav-ipkknd-tantrik-black-magic-arnav-singh-raizada-gif-19445315
[16:53:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> i give me life to thee
[16:53:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoa%CA%BBi_family - So your basically looking for something similar to the family tree
[16:53:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> suuuuuure
[16:54:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> something similar
[16:54:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart - Thats done with a tree template, but there are probably similar templates for use on there
[16:54:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] complete side note, but this website actually seems useful lol wtf
[16:54:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210268445053034496/image.png?ex=65e9f153&is=65d77c53&hm=252b2145faea0c68817613f5c1eb7599e341f26282e99bcb21727aea9f24c6c8&
[16:56:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to platyellow> this is so weirdly formatted lol
[16:57:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/9] ```mw
[16:57:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/9] {{Tree chart/start|align=center|summary=An example family tree}}
[16:57:10] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart/start 
[16:57:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [3/9] {{Tree chart| | | |GrMa |~|y|~| GRP | |GrMa=Grandma|GRP=Grandpa}}
[16:57:11] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart 
[16:57:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [4/9] {{Tree chart| | | | | | | |)|-|-|-|.| }}
[16:57:11] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart 
[16:57:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [5/9] {{Tree chart| | | MOM |y| DAD | |DAISY|MOM=Mom|DAD=Dad|DAISY=[[Aunt Daisy]]}}
[16:57:11] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Aunt_Daisy
[16:57:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [6/9] {{Tree chart| |,|-|-|-|+|-|-|-|.| | | }}
[16:57:11] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart 
[16:57:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [7/9] {{Tree chart| JOE | | ME  | | SIS | | |JOE=My brother Joe|ME='''Me!'''|SIS=My little sister}}
[16:57:12] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart 
[16:57:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [8/9] {{Tree chart/end}}
[16:57:12] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Tree_chart/end 
[16:57:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [9/9] ```
[16:58:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> i find it weird that it uses Lua and yet has this strange of a syntax
[16:59:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> but i'll see if i can figure out something similar
[17:04:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1210270266760888441 anyone interested in a TOC to Sidebar gadget? I just need it to work correctly 😄
[17:09:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow, replying to kojobailey> [1/2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Ahnentafel
[17:09:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <platyellow, replying to kojobailey> [2/2] There's always this one, its a little less weirdly formatted
[17:11:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> eh i have a better design in mind anywya
[17:11:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> thinking of doing some kind of horizontal scroller
[17:12:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] hopefully it's not too difficult...
[17:12:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210272900406321232/image.png?ex=65e9f579&is=65d78079&hm=5744602e8b3337584e6154ce7ff5eb048c86ae40f18a376d0a547ca2a37f3bfd&
[17:38:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] so far so decent...
[17:38:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210279463892287498/image.png?ex=65e9fb96&is=65d78696&hm=3495a469b768320daae395f523d6944d6fa56d9633844eadcca54f5890742734&
[17:41:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] or not
[17:41:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210280205894295622/image.png?ex=65e9fc47&is=65d78747&hm=cb563471f9878b5c89361f27ad2df7ca6d8f63b0502351fdcb7c4755a399a0ab&
[17:41:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> i need to learn how to design stuff (like shapes etc.) with CSS
[17:43:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] aha
[17:43:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210280631851028511/image.png?ex=65e9fcac&is=65d787ac&hm=f5acb2b7dad1d85dba2ea581486e43b49d08f9058092e05663bd69bcb40124cc&
[17:43:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> now i'll stop flooding chat
[17:43:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1210270266760888441 anyone interested in a TOC to Sidebar gadget? I just need it to work correctly 😄 and I am stuck!!
[18:06:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Is there a known reason as to why there are repetitive logouts?
[18:06:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Happens constantly
[18:06:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> It's likely browser related
[18:07:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Using Chrome
[18:07:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> hmm
[18:07:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> yeah, probably
[18:07:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> We thought it was session cache but we moved to Redis so there's no reason that should be it anymore
[18:08:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> huh
[18:08:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> weird
[18:08:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha> I only get logged out everytime I visit a (new) custom domain, if I never do I never get logged out.
[18:08:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Yeah, I'm only on meta
[18:09:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> and Chrome doesn't remove access for anything else
[18:09:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> We might just need to wait it out until SUL3
[18:10:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <cosmicalpha> It happens for me on Wikimedia also now, well a bit differently, I stay logged into certain wikis but visiting other wikis and I'm not logged in globally anymore only on wikis I was before.
[18:10:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Weird
[18:10:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> Is that soon?
[18:11:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I have the same problem. Every day I get logged out
[18:12:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to bwm0> How do you define soon
[18:12:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> By May 2024?
[18:12:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> 3 months would be a no
[18:14:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> By end of year?
[18:15:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Hopefully
[18:15:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Oh good
[18:16:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to bwm0> Using Firefox and I've experienced this issue occasionally
[18:16:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Oh
[18:16:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> so it's not just Chrome
[18:19:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I have it both on Chrome and Firefox
[18:20:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> And I clear every day my browser history, bar cookies
[18:45:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> @agentisai Still interested in that global Interface Administrator thing?
[18:45:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I think it would be pretty handy to have a volunteer you could ask to do stuff like gadget installation
[18:46:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> where it is easier to do it yourself and let the other person learn from your edits than try to explain it
[18:46:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to bluemoon0332> very, yes
[18:46:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> We could get an RfC going
[18:48:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> for requirements how about the same requirements as we currently do for global IA?
[18:48:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> (interwiki admin)
[19:14:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Global_Interface_Administrator
[19:21:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bluemoon0332> They could also fill part of global sysop’s role for wikis without active admins, ie a user can request changes to the css/js on SN
[19:21:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Sounds interesting
[19:22:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> GS used to be unable to use their rights on Meta way back right?
[19:22:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I don't remember all that well
[19:29:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to pixldev> hmm, should I reword the mission part in proposal 1 then?
[19:30:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I kind of intended for this group to support local admins really, not so much users.
[19:31:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to pixldev> That could help
[19:31:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> We should look at how WMF's GIA is structured and work off that
[19:31:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> [[metawikimedia:GIA]]
[19:31:47] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/metawikimedia:GIA
[19:31:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GIA>
[19:32:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> that's not a shortcut to GIA, why
[19:32:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> I think the shortcut is "GIE"
[19:32:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> [[metawikimedia:GIE]]
[19:32:22] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/metawikimedia:GIE
[19:32:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/GIE>
[19:32:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> yep
[19:33:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> hmmm, to be used per request of the local community?
[19:33:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> are interface admins on Wikimedia added by Stewards after a local election
[19:34:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> most global roles inferior to Steward are appointed by Stewards, taking into consideration community comments
[19:34:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> so it gives Stewards far greater discretion
[19:34:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I mean local interface admins
[19:38:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> doesn't look like it
[19:39:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I was kinda confused because the wording implied to me that it is possible for a wiki to not have local IAs
[19:39:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> would GIAs have access to Meta's interface?
[19:39:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> probably a clarifying poin
[19:39:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Doubt
[19:39:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> one of the proposals is about that
[19:39:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> proposal 2 is about restricting their rights on Meta
[19:39:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> makes sense
[19:41:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> @bluemoon0332 1000 edits seems high
[19:41:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> maybe 500
[19:41:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> there are 3 proposals regarding edit counts
[19:42:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> 500 or 1000, with the option to require either 30 or 60 days in the latter
[19:43:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> Would there be opt-outs for wikis?
[19:43:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> currently nothing regarding that
[19:43:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Similar to how wikis used to be able to opt out of GS access
[19:43:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> open to suggestions
[19:43:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> Didn’t know our system supported that
[19:43:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> What was the policy
[19:43:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> It doesn't, it'd just be a list-type thing
[19:43:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> I don't like opt-outs
[19:43:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Ah
[19:44:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> GS opt-outs still exist but no one's implemented that system yet
[19:44:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I think not
[19:44:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> [1/2] Main questions I have currently regarding overall:
[19:44:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> [2/2] * What's the scope of a GIA? What access are they permitted?
[19:44:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> proposal 1 as well as the intro cover that
[19:44:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> There’ll likely be something about not making edits against community consensus anyways
[19:44:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> with the exact rights listed
[19:44:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> The only exception would likely be malicious js
[19:44:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> In which case
[19:45:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> added too early oops
[19:45:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Fuck opt outs anyways
[19:45:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> rest of Qs are there
[19:45:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Well in that case would be ToU bio
[19:45:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> opt outs I can add a proposal for there to be a similar system for opting out as with Global Sysops
[19:45:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> currently thinking about the other two questions
[19:45:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> What do we use, crat consensus, or community?
[19:46:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to pixldev> Tone please
[19:46:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> Crats are generally the end all for wikis
[19:46:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> So probably them
[19:46:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Yeah
[19:46:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to pixldev> I agree with the sentiment
[19:46:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Crats assess consensus
[19:46:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> If crat and community clash
[19:46:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> they don't make sense
[19:46:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Uh
[19:47:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Not a GIA’s problem
[19:47:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> if someone misuses rights, they should be sacked anyway
[19:47:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Yeah
[19:47:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> I'm just not entirely sure what happens if GIAs are at odds with crats on what to do
[19:47:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Admin / Crat would be the call for local decisions
[19:47:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> They really shouldn’t
[19:47:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> GS has authority as a CVT member.....does GIA also have authority
[19:47:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> GIAs should never be at odd with crats
[19:47:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Imo
[19:47:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> If Crat can't come to an agreement, Stewards step in
[19:47:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> Doubt
[19:47:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> since they should always act under request of local admins at minimum, I think
[19:47:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It seems closer to GIWA
[19:47:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> yeah
[19:47:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> And I also guess, what's the scope of this? Why is a GIA role needed in the first place?
[19:48:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> If GIA can't agree with local actors then it's a matter for Stewards
[19:48:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> the intro covers that
[19:48:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> New crats who are unfamiliar with JS, and possibly wikis with no active crats
[19:48:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> the intention is for this group to help wiki admins that want to do stuff like gadgets but don't know how, for example
[19:48:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Are GIA perms included in GS?
[19:48:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> but then why is this not a scenario to grant local crat?
[19:49:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> GR/GS have a solidifed purpose, to counter vandalism, no matter what wiki
[19:49:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Since vandalism is bad everywhere
[19:49:10] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to pixldev> I think they're not
[19:49:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> GIA doesn't have the same use case in my eyes
[19:49:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bwm0> If it’s a single on off change would be less trouble to request then an election
[19:49:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> IA can be granted at crat discretion
[19:49:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> All rights can really
[19:49:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Same principle as GS serving wikis with no local admins
[19:50:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> huh?
[19:50:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> That was my understanding at least
[19:50:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Don’t remember if it’s written down
[19:50:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> I'm not sure I see much purpose in a global role for something that should be explicitly delegated by the operators of a community upon invitation anyway
[19:51:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> if bob really wants help with interface, he can get in touch with legroom and give legroom interface admin perms, all set
[19:51:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> giving legroom interface perms all the time because he might be called to help seems like a hat for hat's sake tbh
[19:51:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Yeah....to me GIA would also be an exceptionally privileged tool, as it basically allows for interface editing anywhere
[19:52:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> just using legroom for example as an obvious person I'd support for such a role if it did exist
[19:52:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Yeah
[19:52:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> I'm not sure it complies with the principal of least privilege
[19:52:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> by the principle of least privelage what you do is add as needed and solicited, yes
[19:52:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bwm0> And with this it's naturally that very few users would ever get it, including ones that could be helpful with it. Just the toolset globally would make them less likely to obtain.
[19:52:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Imagine how hard it is already to get GIA on Meta
[19:52:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> or PTW
[19:52:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> then multiply that to global
[19:53:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Do we trust anyone, really, minus Stewards, with that?
[19:53:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to bwm0> no-one knows, because no-one ever requests it 😂
[19:54:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I guess it can be hard to come up with a reason to convince meta bureaus
[19:54:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> This is possibly just a me thing but when I'm going through these processes of creating a new role, I think of potential users who would be good in it
[19:54:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bwm0> To determine feasibility and if it's useful or not
[19:55:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to bwm0> I doubt you're the only one doing that, why create a role if no-one is suitable for it anyway
[19:55:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Not that anyone comes immediately and overwhelmingly to mind cough legroom
[19:55:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bluemoon0332> Exactly
[19:55:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> I see 2-3 users for GIA, and maybe not even then?
[19:55:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Thinking about it....you could consider GIA a step below Steward
[19:55:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> possibly equivalent with GS
[19:56:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> I just don't see why local IA couldn't be granted when needed
[19:56:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> GIA would allow someone to make themselves any role
[19:56:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> If sneaky enough
[19:56:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> I'm not convinced that's a good idea
[19:56:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> that's what we do the endless questions on RfPs for tho
[19:57:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> [1/2] I like the scope they have on Wikimedia Meta:
[19:57:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> [2/2] > They maintain templates and the site's JavaScript and CSS resources. [...It should] be used for non-controversial maintenance, or by request of the local community
[19:57:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> If we really wanna keep some parts of GIA, since CSS is much more common and less dangerous thing, we could if needed give GS global JS
[19:57:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> In all fairness, WMF is different than MH in this regard
[19:57:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> and this scope doesn't work why?
[19:57:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> All WMF wikis are community wikis, fully accessible and all have an explicit mission, scope, and purpose
[19:57:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> And are all ran the same way
[19:58:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Miraheze is not the same, many wikis just want to be left alone and do their thing
[19:58:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to bwm0> you'd get flogged at Commons if you tried to impose something on them
[19:58:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Someone said here earlier, don't remember who: The best thing for most wikis is to not know Miraheze as a whole exists
[19:59:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> I mean overall though, they all have admin/crat elections, all are overseen by Stewards, ArbCom, etc. It's very much copy/paste for bureaucracy
[19:59:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> ArbCom exists on a small fraction of wikis
[20:00:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> As with GS, the wielder has to use their brain when doing things. Yes, the global structure shouldn't bee so prominent and in your face but GIA could help aid users who have good knowledge in CSS/JS and help them help others
[20:01:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> I agree with Raidarr that theoretically, for example, you could just promote a user who is helping to local interface admin and voila but this removes an extra step which may confuse especially novice admins
[20:01:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to agentisai> That’s a fun new word
[20:01:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> the core question is though: GR and GS are toolsets that apply to all wikis, because vandalism is bad everywhere and should be removed.
[20:01:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> GIA is thoroughly more nuanced
[20:01:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> No one will oppose rollbacking vandalism
[20:01:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> I don't know if that remains true for CSS/JS
[20:01:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I think the issue raise about the security concerns of a rouge GIA are… alarming
[20:01:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> It just feels like a local problem to me and shouldn't be global
[20:02:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> If anyone was to ever go rogue (think Examknow for GS), it would be bad bad
[20:02:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> People have opposed you going on their wikis and reverting vandalism. You may have missed historic CN threads where this was complained about
[20:02:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> A rouge GIA could cause a lot of damage
[20:02:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to pixldev> all requirements proposals require 2FA, at least
[20:02:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> ^
[20:03:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> Now, the thing is, use your brain and don't go snooping into wikis businesses without being called for. GS shouldn't randomly be editing things just because they can. Equally, GIA shouldn't be changing CSS/JS because they want to either
[20:03:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> if a user asks for help, of course you'd help them
[20:03:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to agentisai> My main question still is: why global and not local?
[20:03:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> I see use cases of course for GR and GS
[20:03:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to agentisai> .
[20:04:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> novice admins should learn that step, hence being admins in the first place
[20:04:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> better they learn it and become bett,er and give permissions on a strict as-needed basis
[20:04:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> From an assurance perspective, I don't like GIA
[20:05:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> I don't really like how Stewards having as much power in one step as they do
[20:06:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> I mean, let's do a quick vote here - react with your preference. As of now, with the arguments presented, would you support a global interface admin group?
[20:07:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> whats the emoji for depends
[20:07:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> :NeutralMH: ?
[20:07:11] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> :supportif: doesn't exist yet
[20:07:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> rip
[20:07:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to pixldev> Neutral
[20:07:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to pixldev> abstain/neutral/unsure/undecided basically
[20:07:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> vote with the emojis!!!
[20:07:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> is that
[20:07:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210317054645772378/VQuPUXK.png?ex=65ea1e98&is=65d7a998&hm=015eff397682db8e98e8e20fc1af26c0ca3c10d62e5d5acf8d24cc39b35f3c2f&
[20:08:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> oops, sorry, thought Rhinos was replying to BWM's message and voting that way
[20:08:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> kind of undecided actually
[20:08:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> ill support for now
[20:08:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> but was thinking also
[20:08:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> What if we have it just be CSS instead of JS
[20:09:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> It's vastly more common in support requests
[20:09:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> lower risk
[20:09:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> of course, any such role would require 2FA
[20:09:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to pixldev> I can make the rights for the group a separate proposal, if you want
[20:09:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> GS and Steward require 2FA, iirc?
[20:09:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> one with CSS and another with the full package
[20:09:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Plus thinking bout it there seems to be less value in editing JS for someone then CSS
[20:10:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to agentisai> Steward definitely, GS I think but not sure
[20:10:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> not really sure how else to say it
[20:10:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <zeusdeegoose, replying to agentisai> yeah
[20:10:16] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to agentisai> Yes
[20:10:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Steward is still extremely powerful
[20:10:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Most corp systems have seperated -admin and normal accounts
[20:10:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> we should make an RfC for Steward-lite, without CU and suppression
[20:10:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> jk of course
[20:10:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> I think steward should have to add more rights to use them
[20:11:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Via the local steward group rather than hold globally
[20:11:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> like which?
[20:11:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> As mediawiki has no renter 2FA code / password feature
[20:11:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> most globally dangerous rights are only available to the Meta steward group
[20:11:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Like editsitecss/js and for other users
[20:12:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rhinosf1> wdym?
[20:12:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [1/6] Edit sitewide CSS (editsitecss)
[20:12:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [2/6] Edit sitewide JavaScript (editsitejs)
[20:12:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [3/6] Edit sitewide JSON (editsitejson)
[20:12:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [4/6] Edit other users' CSS files (editusercss)
[20:12:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [5/6] Edit other users' JavaScript files (edituserjs)
[20:12:30] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [6/6] Edit other users' JSON files (edituserjson)
[20:12:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Suppress Structured Discussions topics and posts (flow-suppress)
[20:12:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> Rhinos is saying that Stewards should have to add and remove rights from the global group when needed
[20:12:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> rather than have them available at all times
[20:12:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I think
[20:13:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [1/2] Verify whether a user has two-factor authentication enabled (oathauth-verify-user)
[20:13:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> [2/2] Access the log of two-factor authentication changes (oathauth-view-log)
[20:13:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> That's probably my list
[20:13:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Of high risk rights that should be local scope only
[20:14:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to rhinosf1> flow-suppress probably should go into local `suppress`, I agree
[20:14:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to rhinosf1> this should go into the Meta group only
[20:15:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> @agentisai can you do it
[20:15:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> I banned most of the risky rights a while back from Stewards and T&S as an SRE action
[20:16:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Can we do the same for T&S too
[20:16:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> this shaping up to be a spicy RfC
[20:16:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> The T&S group is far too wide
[20:16:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I'll think over the messages here and add more proposals later
[20:16:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rhinosf1> What does this accomplish technical wise?
[20:16:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Why do you need global renameuser
[20:17:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> It's a right only used from meta
[20:17:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to pixldev> Better security
[20:17:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [1/2] also i just noticed Stewards requests is still under noticeboards ow
[20:17:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210319386372608021/Kf0uHXz.png?ex=65ea20c4&is=65d7abc4&hm=232ee2df3df3cf8f5dc59860df96dc5751ad07d7ef0996d8b26e6125b000fba2&
[20:17:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rhinosf1> How so? If the local steward group can't be accessed by non stewards. Just an emergency fail safe?
[20:18:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to pixldev> It's not an emergency fail safe
[20:18:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> The local steward group is stop them having rights they don't need to hold globally all the time because a malicious user could exploit js etc to cause hell
[20:18:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> And it increases accoutability
[20:19:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> It's impossible to audit logs on 5k wikis
[20:19:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0, replying to bwm0> bump if any who didn't vote, wish to
[20:19:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> It is possible to audit meta for you using the local steward group
[20:20:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> So they need to grant themselves the group before taking such actions. But if you already have access to a global steward group, what's the point besides accountability. You can still wreak havoc til some SRE or other locks the account
[20:21:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Unless I'm misunderstanding
[20:21:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to pixldev> Accountability
[20:22:12] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> It's why there's always an addition and removal of CU/OS when using
[20:22:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> And if steward visit malicouswiki now, someone could easily pull data on every users 2FA status and email it to themselves
[20:22:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> If they didn't hold the right except when using it, they can't
[20:22:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> ah
[20:26:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64> [1/2] This error pops up when trying to delete a Flow post
[20:26:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210321706380431431/image0.jpg?ex=65ea22ed&is=65d7aded&hm=b9afcb74b53b4bdf1326f8890e510c190a2133125eb6a9eaed5cca5087d78772&
[20:29:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> can you potentially copy the exception id?
[20:29:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> (I don't think I have the necessary perms to reproduce).
[20:30:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64> Huh, appears to have fixed itself
[20:33:54] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> does MediaWiki have a native way of hiding scrollbars
[20:34:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/6] rn i'm doing this
[20:34:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/6] ```css
[20:34:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [3/6] .scroll-box::-webkit-scrollbar {
[20:34:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [4/6]     display: none;
[20:34:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [5/6] }
[20:34:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [6/6] ```
[20:34:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> but i'm also aware that it's browser-dependent
[20:35:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <tali64, replying to kojobailey> The only way to do it is via CSS; unfortunately, there's no one element that controls scrollbars across every browser
[20:35:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> oh well
[20:35:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> better than nothing i suppose
[20:36:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> apparently it won't work on Firefox then
[20:36:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [1/2] I still need some help
[20:36:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> [2/2] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1210270266760888441
[20:36:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> I don't get it to work
[20:40:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> @bluemoon0332 want me to add the only CSS bit to the RFC?
[20:40:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> sure
[20:41:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bluemoon0332> Are there any technical risks with edit json btw?
[20:42:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> if some extension or script uses it, yes
[20:42:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> by default I don't think it represents any particular risk on wikis
[20:43:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to bluemoon0332> (uses JSON on the MediaWiki: namespace)
[20:43:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> I have never in my life seen it used unironicly .-.
[20:43:31] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Should I include it as removed in the sub pro?
[20:43:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> Eh I'll make it a seperate bit
[20:44:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> would this be under proposal 1, maybe 2, or a new one(3)?
[20:45:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> I think we would have the remove the rights mentioned on proposal 1 and make two new proposals where people can vote for either CSS-only or JS as well
[20:45:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> so 3 and 4?
[20:46:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> alternatively, keep the CSS rights on proposal 1 and make a separate proposal, like 1.5, where we can vote for JS rights
[20:46:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> or move current 2 to 4
[20:46:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bluemoon0332> yeah ill do dat
[20:52:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to bluemoon0332> :DoneMH: Done
[20:53:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> nice
[20:55:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr, replying to bluemoon0332> not far from some thoughts rolling around on making GS have a bit more bang for their buck by being able to deal with dead simple managewiki tasks
[20:55:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> 16 meta edits. And I had to ask agent to manually add me to the confirmed group a few days ago :Kek:
[20:55:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> about that: https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/T11884
[20:55:44] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> but there were some concerns by other SRE members on my approach and I kind of decided to stop working on that task
[20:57:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> the to keep it split or not to keep it split iirc
[20:57:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> yeah
[20:57:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> ideally a thing for mw would be part of mw, but also mw itself is far, far less gnarly
[20:58:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> maybe we should do technical RfCs, like Wikimedia (I think they do that, when I read about ENUMs back when Rhinos mentioned it on #tech )
[20:58:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> I'd hope the technical blokes are comfortable with raising technical ideas and having clear discussions on them
[20:58:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> basically rfc without the bureaucratic bits
[20:59:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> we should also maybe give more visibility to RFC/RfGPs
[20:59:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> short of unpopular global notices there is only so much that can be done, but perhaps more consistent meta/discord notices would help
[20:59:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> yeah on discord
[20:59:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> maybe an opt in ping role
[21:00:02] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> I'm still on board with a dedicated newsletter type thing for people to casually glance at on a monthly basis to be up to date with what's going on and what's new, which can also shoot out messages of interesting things to know
[21:00:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> oooooo
[21:00:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> dedicated team of its own consisting of people who are into that kinda thing
[21:00:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to raidarr> I kind of feel called out there 😓
[21:00:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to raidarr> yeah, full RfCs for technical decisions are a bit too bureaucratic
[21:00:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> two duties, make sure stuff that's useful gets known, and make monthly updates
[21:00:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> don't take these things too well when it is something I'm working on
[21:01:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> but I'm working on these parts of my personality
[21:01:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> well, it's give and take, but some pride in your stuff is to be expected and appreciated
[21:01:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> as simplicity goes I am an extremist, let me pull up my personal wiki's permissions
[21:01:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210330644878458960/image.png?ex=65ea2b40&is=65d7b640&hm=348fe7374f8d504ccf48d1dfa2e72437de270763ff631dfe18366026459f10ba&
[21:02:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> if I just wanted it totally read only I'd have made it 3
[21:02:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> maybe I could get away with 2 but I think that would kill it
[21:02:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> extremist seems accurate
[21:05:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to kojobailey> Firefox have `scrollbar-color`, `scrollbar-width` and `scrollbar-gutter` as css properties (not entirely sure what they last does, but it exists)
[21:15:45] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> that brand new rfc is a perfect example where I would have wanted to see headers combine, full support abstain oppose for each timing could become quite a mess
[21:16:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <raidarr> well we'll see
[21:18:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] uh
[21:18:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210334772597887066/image.png?ex=65ea2f18&is=65d7ba18&hm=f1188929d6bad897aaef56f11545525f3a7c6fc4d807179e1b173c5033bbed95&
[21:18:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> so much for that then?
[21:18:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Double :: ?
[21:18:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> idk what's correct apparently
[21:19:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> and it works when i apply it via inspect
[21:19:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> 🤔  Not sure either
[21:22:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> Is it possible to exclude subpages from random page?
[21:38:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to bluemoon0332> Wikimedia Technical RfCs ran by TechCom or whatever it is this week is not like an on wiki RfC
[21:40:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Technical Decision Forum
[21:41:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> We don't need a decision forum
[21:41:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> Forums are for bike shedding
[21:41:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev, replying to rhinosf1> #tech works fine yeah
[21:41:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> if we wanna organize
[21:41:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> threads
[21:52:36] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority, replying to rhinosf1> I don't have a bike
[21:52:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> or a bike shed
[21:52:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <originalauthority> should I be worried?
[21:52:47] <MirahezeRelay>	 <gummiel, replying to kojobailey> Looks correct to me, make sure you didn't break something about the stuff before and after it maybe?
[21:53:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> nope
[21:53:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1, replying to originalauthority> Nope
[21:56:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Been logged out 4 times today erratically
[21:56:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bwm0> Nothing that can be done but just irritating
[22:04:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to kojobailey> Is this in TemplateStyles perhaps? TS uses SanitizedCSS which doesn't allow some (valid otherwise) CSS
[22:05:48] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> The Extension:CSS is an alternative to use in such cases since it uses the regular css page model
[22:07:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong, replying to xenareee> Are you able to help me with https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1210270266760888441 ?
[22:07:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Never used gadgets so nope
[22:08:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rodejong> Ok, thanks
[22:08:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee, replying to thebasicperson> According to [[mw:Manual:Random page]] selection criteria can be changed, although it's not in reach of a bureaucrat I imagine
[22:08:57] <wm-bot>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Random_page
[22:08:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Random_page>
[22:09:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theburningfirethatscorchessouls> Also, my templates SEEM to be working without parser funchens
[22:11:09] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to xenareee> possibly then, yes
[22:11:18] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> because it is templatestyles
[22:11:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Yeah, then it's the more restrictive page model
[22:11:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <serverlessharej> What is the template used to close discussions and wrap them in a colored box?
[22:11:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> buuut it's not a big deal anyway
[22:11:46] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> it's probably a justified restriction
[22:11:52] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> considering not all browsers support it
[22:12:56] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Some restrictions seem really weird so not sure. Feel free to check the alternative extension (you can use both together safely) if you want to make this work later :pupCoffeeMH:
[22:12:59] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332, replying to serverlessharej> Template:discussiontop and discussionbottom
[22:13:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <bluemoon0332> iirc
[22:13:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <rhinosf1> What @bluemoon0332 said
[22:13:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> How can I make category images display as pixelated?
[22:14:28] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> As in not blurred if they're already low res? `image-rendering` in css iirc
[22:15:15] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> I just want in the category though
[22:15:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> Yes you would need to target the image in categories. Or is that just one category?
[22:16:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> Just the one category
[22:16:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <xenareee> I'm not sure what kind of images you mean. Could you link an example and ideally create a support thread to not flood this channel? :pupCoffeeMH:
[22:17:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> Literally just the images that appear in a category?
[22:17:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <thebasicperson> Like they appear as a gallery, and you can click them to go to the file
[22:25:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] will Miraheze update its extensions soon, because some of them just straight up don't work anymore / haven't worked since i first tested the
[22:25:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210351653472178238/image.png?ex=65ea3ed1&is=65d7c9d1&hm=03271c6286f3916c0472a59d45405a6bc6022877f96b97d38324f867c75f3751&
[22:25:51] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> Previews/Popups is one of them
[22:26:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> Lingo is another (Terminology page extension)
[22:26:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] even tho i def have it enabled
[22:26:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210351985140830248/image.png?ex=65ea3f20&is=65d7ca20&hm=dee25d32a10ef7fd700009a95156a9f97fa1694091f82d98a63611e510c8f509&
[22:28:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <feliipezzz> hii, yesterday i made a steward's request to undelate my wiki, apparently it's done but whemn i open the wiki i still get the message that it's deleted, do i have to wait a determinated time span before it's available?
[22:29:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to feliipezzz> please link the wiki or your steward's request
[22:30:17] <MirahezeRelay>	 <feliipezzz, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> https://truenationalfm.miraheze.org/wiki/
[22:30:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai, replying to kojobailey> An update won't fix that
[22:30:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jph2, replying to kojobailey> [1/2] These are working on a couple of the wikis I frequent. Though they do seem  to intermittent issues.
[22:30:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jph2, replying to kojobailey> [2/2] Haven't used lingo
[22:31:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> and Lingo is disabled globally
[22:31:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to agentisai> I ask because last I checked, a lot of them were outdated
[22:31:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> How outdated?
[22:31:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> it varied, but iirc Popups was one that needed to be updated to work again properly
[22:32:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> all extensions were last updated about two weeks ago
[22:32:53] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> hrm Popups still doesn't work for me which is strange then
[22:32:57] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to agentisai> why's that?
[22:33:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> It breaks every time we upgrade from a non LTS version
[22:33:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> It was broken before 1.39 and then broke when we upgraded to 1.41
[22:34:04] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that's unfortuante
[22:34:19] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> is that a thing for the Lingo devs to fix then
[22:35:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> yeah
[22:35:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to feliipezzz> can you please reply to Kiju in your request, stating that the wiki appears deleted again
[22:35:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <feliipezzz, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> Okay
[22:35:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> also, is it not possible to have a tabber within a tabber?
[22:35:32] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> for the tabber extension
[22:35:33] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> so the wiki is undeleted
[22:35:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom, replying to kojobailey> different syntax has to used
[22:35:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <agentisai> but there seems to be a cache issue
[22:35:50] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey, replying to theoneandonlylegroom> what syntax
[22:36:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> [[mw:Extension:TabberNeue#Nested_tabbers]]
[22:36:26] <wm-bot>	 https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue#Nested_tabbers
[22:36:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <Wiki-Bot#2998> <https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue#Nested_tabbers>
[22:38:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that is what i have though i think
[22:38:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/14] i use a template for it but
[22:38:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/14] ```
[22:38:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [3/14] {{#tag:tabber |
[22:38:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [4/14] {{{title1|{{{1|}}}}}}=
[22:38:39] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7btitle1 
[22:38:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [5/14] {{{content1|{{{2|}}}}}}<!--
[22:38:39] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bcontent1 
[22:38:39] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [6/14] -->{{#if: {{{title2|{{{3|}}}}}} |
[22:38:39] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/%23if:Template:_%7b%7b%7btitle2 
[22:38:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [7/14] {{!}}-{{!}}
[22:38:40] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:! 
[22:38:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [8/14] {{{title2|{{{3}}}}}}=
[22:38:40] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7btitle2 
[22:38:40] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [9/14] {{{content2|{{{4|}}}}}}}}<!--
[22:38:40] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bcontent2 
[22:38:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [10/14] -->{{#if: {{{title3|{{{5|}}}}}} |
[22:38:41] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/%23if:Template:_%7b%7b%7btitle3 
[22:38:41] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [11/14] {{!}}-{{!}}
[22:38:41] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:! 
[22:38:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [12/14] {{{title3|{{{5}}}}}}=
[22:38:42] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7btitle3 
[22:38:42] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [13/14] {{{content3|{{{6|}}}}}}}}...
[22:38:42] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:%7bcontent3 
[22:38:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [14/14] ```
[22:39:07] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> and this same template works on other wikis
[22:39:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> but they also have custom CSS for the tabs, so maybe that's something...
[22:39:49] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> yeah, using tabber in template require `#tag`
[22:40:08] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> but idk if you'll be able to nest them as templates
[22:44:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/18] still not working
[22:44:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/18] ```html
[22:44:21] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [3/18] <tabber>
[22:44:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [4/18] |-|Modding Announcements=
[22:44:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [5/18] {{Modding Announcements}}
[22:44:22] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Modding_Announcements 
[22:44:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [6/18] |-|Roadmaps=
[22:44:22] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [7/18] {{#tag:tabber
[22:44:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [8/18] |Tools=
[22:44:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [9/18] bong
[22:44:23] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [10/18] {{!}}-{{!}}Community=
[22:44:23] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:! 
[22:44:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [11/18] bing
[22:44:24] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [12/18] }}
[22:44:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [13/18] |-|Social Feed=
[22:44:25] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [14/18] {{Social Feed}}
[22:44:25] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Social_Feed 
[22:44:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [15/18] |-|Wiki Log=
[22:44:26] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [16/18] {{Special:RecentChanges}}
[22:44:26] <wm-bot>	 https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:Template:RecentChanges 
[22:44:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [17/18] /tabber
[22:44:27] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [18/18] ```
[22:44:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that's uh cool
[22:45:01] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I'm not a fan of nested tabber but it was working on PTW
[22:45:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> oh hold on
[22:46:00] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> it does work
[22:46:05] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> just not when previewing the page after an edit fsr
[22:46:14] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> that's... strange
[22:49:58] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> ah, yeah
[22:50:06] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> it's a thing
[22:50:13] <MirahezeRelay>	 <theoneandonlylegroom> I think it also happens w/ Tabs
[22:56:37] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [1/2] does this count as unsigned to add the template?
[22:56:38] <MirahezeRelay>	 <pixldev> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210359521973895220/w8Salv5.png?ex=65ea4625&is=65d7d125&hm=cd69ee48a06e70382cf55c2baef0ec0d9c3bee3ad971710ccd9d5d521c14c673&
[23:15:29] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jph2> i'd say yes
[23:16:03] <MirahezeRelay>	 <jph2> i mean it's incomplete, so yeah
[23:46:34] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [1/2] why
[23:46:35] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1210372092676153364/image.png?ex=65ea51da&is=65d7dcda&hm=fa217bf555b52fcfc84b7268295cbd189f24cf9749a0c5664f62294b0ff5b2df&
[23:46:43] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> now tabber's deciding it doesn't want to work
[23:47:55] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> for realsies
[23:49:20] <MirahezeRelay>	 <kojobailey> guess i'll just not use it for now...