[00:07:33] It's also possible to remove the home page from the whitelist iirc [00:07:43] I think so yeah [00:42:12] Hello. Looking for advice regarding a good purpose, topic and scope for a wiki I want to create [00:43:58] Feel free to send what you have and we can tell you how you can improve [00:44:43] This wiki will be about me creating fictional crossovers between Winnie the Pooh and other franchises like Marvel Comics. It will contain detailed descriptions on each individual crossover that I come up with. Most of the pages would be pages about stuff like Power Rangers, Pokemon, X-Men, etc. [01:11:26] It is not [01:11:41] But maybe it should be [01:17:37] Is there a way to use membership in our discord server to verify our users to a private wiki. That is what confused me that the default wikibot connection does not work with private where that is exactly what I was hoping it would work with. [01:31:00] It was for me [01:31:03] 😢 we lost role icons [01:31:15] There's something in ManageWiki about whitelisted pages and I removed main page [01:35:12] boost pls [01:35:46] Don't have nitro, would if i did [01:36:39] I am sure discord take other currencies than $ too 😛 [01:37:49] Am I the only one that feels like 16 proposals is way to much for the Global Interface Editor RfC [01:38:06] the multi proposal system is a bit broken [01:38:21] No you're not but we're rolling with it [01:39:20] [1/6] for one I think it's ridiculous to have a full support/abstain/oppose thing for a whole myriad of similar options and there should be more attempts to bundle headers, ie [01:39:20] [2/6] - Support (variant a) [01:39:20] [3/6] - Support (variant b) [01:39:21] [4/6] - Support (you get the picture) [01:39:21] [5/6] - Oppose [01:39:21] [6/6] - Neutral/abstain/other? [01:39:37] but in this case since I oppose the entire idea it's an easy vote [01:40:10] Lets be honest, global rights are a mess [01:40:30] GR is basically useless and needs something to make it useful [01:40:33] they are when there's little ones with poor niches [01:40:43] which this proposal will expand [01:40:46] GIWI [01:40:52] never liked that one [01:41:08] assuming giwa [01:41:09] Me neither. Definition of uneeded. [01:41:18] yeah, mb [01:41:26] anyway out for the night [01:41:30] bye [01:41:33] night [01:43:12] cya [01:43:52] but yeah GS/Steward is the like the only actually useful Global group. GR has it's very sparse moments. [02:00:55] fix it if you want [02:01:55] No it's not [02:02:02] It's useful for vandalism patrol [02:16:46] No it wasn't it never was the main page being in there is in a hook it isn't configurable [02:16:55] Oh [02:17:01] My bad sorry [03:39:25] I believe there will be something to remove the GR role in due course [03:39:31] At the moment, it serves no purpose tbh [03:47:51] @serverlessharej have a second? [03:53:26] Nobody's ever really explained what's wrong with it [03:53:43] It's a glorified edit war tool tbh [03:53:49] Well yes [03:53:55] Edit warring with vandals and spammers is fine [03:54:04] There isn't always someone available to block [03:54:10] You shouldn't just leave vandalism in place until someone can remove it [03:54:21] Noooooo ahah [03:54:27] It's exhausting [03:54:31] GR makes it easier for users involved in CVT to cleanup spam and vandalism if they aren't able to be trusted with blocking and locking [03:54:41] I personally don't mind it very much but you wouldn't request GR if you don't like doing it [03:54:48] *like or are indifferent to doing it [03:56:14] I don't mind doing it, but I don't like it [03:57:23] Well yeah but it's useful to revert vandalism until someone can block the vandal so it's useful to have GR for that reason [03:57:32] No because the vandal will keep undoing [03:57:35] Yeah [03:57:38] It's tiring/quite useless quickly [03:57:53] But GR makes it easier to restore the non vnadalized revision because you can skip captcha, move while suppressing redirects, and use rollback [03:58:15] On Liberapedia, for example, when fixing the blanked pages, I had to go through captchas until I became autoconfirmed [03:58:24] Right but not uncommonly, it's hours before someone locks/blocks the vandals, which means the GR is stuck doing it for.....hours? [03:58:35] I suppose [03:59:01] I personally would be fine doing it for hours if I had nothing better to do but I'm likely the only person that feels that way [03:59:12] probably lol [04:02:26] @solodayheavenofficial see https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Community_portal#Request_for_Feedback:_Global_Rollbacker [04:02:34] Alr [04:08:52] do i seriously have to make rules for the wiki when requesting one now lol [05:27:00] global-captcha-exempt may be useful in place of GR and in terms of a11y [05:58:38] where did the close button on my sitenotice go lol [08:16:42] edit warring with vandals does nothing to stop them and only clogs up the page's recent editing history in my experience [08:30:35] does more harm than good tbh [08:37:03] GR is effective for one-off pranks or for recovery after a user has been blocked or locked. But yes, they are mostly done by GS/Stew [08:38:27] If GS is to be sub-stewards, it might be worth resurrecting a group similar to [former CVT](https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Counter_Vandalism_Team?oldid=73242) that has only the necessary permissions for dealing with vandalism, such as deletion and blocking [08:47:45] ^ that's my ideal thought for taking GR as it stands (which may not necessarily have that name by then) [08:48:34] [1/2] bug that no one will probably care: [08:48:34] [2/2] the "more information" button on the [08:48:37] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231889386996760576/Screenshot_20240422_154752_Chrome.png?ex=662775e5&is=66262465&hm=556e1080618c7331adc012771608c68cfa614acdbf96fd24034e83d1057c3195& [08:48:54] links to `Privacy_Policy#4._Cookies`, but the cookies section is `2. Cookies` now [08:50:04] eh, that's a moderately decent one, should be addressed further. I assume [[phorge]] since probably only sre can modify that message? if agent's spider sense or something isn't here shortly [08:50:04] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/phorge [08:50:05] [08:50:24] wait really? lol [08:53:10] im getting `Unhandled Exception ("AphrontMalformedRequestException")` when trying to login with phorge lol [08:55:47] wtf [08:56:05] i just randomly got logged out and the default username in the login form is `Erran-Zeniko` [08:56:17] cloudflare caching weirdness [08:56:35] \:| [09:22:09] Fixed. Thanks for reporting. [09:22:41] Logged in is not cached so I don't think it would cace any logged in stuff. [09:23:32] my theory with this was something like a failed login attempt which I assume would not count as an actual logged in thing but would retain entry on the form, if that sort of thing is kept/known server side [09:23:47] Oh huh that might be... [09:24:00] We could just skip caching UserLogin I guess [09:24:20] probably for the best ye [09:24:47] Anyway it is almost 3:30AM once again so I'll deal tomorrow. [09:24:49] It's so awkward that I don't have copilot enabled. Since I really need the free trial for a project I'm doing. https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/118891#discussioncomment-9121826 [11:04:55] None of special should be cachable [11:09:04] [1/4] Hey so I'm trying to clean up since we'll be sharing the link to the fanbase at large soon, I don't know what exactly is causing it, but the tabber extension thing like, it hates bullet lists from what I've found and Don't exactly know what to do to make them display correctly. First tab is fine except for the first one, then the second one has things break, as you can see in [11:09:05] [2/4] the examples provided. [11:09:05] [3/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231924732774055977/image.png?ex=6638ba50&is=66264550&hm=ee271594392258dfcc187960cbb2f7b8a78bdcc0e2ed376f911a3ba2a0b7ecb4& [11:09:05] [4/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231924733012869160/image.png?ex=6638ba50&is=66264550&hm=6e6d2b66bd330a049e274dff393a80971774f95cfd67e71b391b11b0f36661aa& [11:14:50] [1/4] bullet lists should start from new line [11:14:50] [2/4] don't remember tabber syntax but it must be like [11:14:50] [3/4] `...= [11:14:51] [4/4] * ...` [11:15:08] not `...=* ...` [11:17:59] [1/2] Here's what the source looks like [11:17:59] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231926974465708032/image.png?ex=6638bc66&is=66264766&hm=e85c3baf972ca83dc32ff3b79ba5846ea1481fd7270438f2437f0c8f8001aac2& [11:21:17] [1/4] Also another character page [11:21:17] [2/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231927805432823869/image.png?ex=6638bd2c&is=6626482c&hm=7a43ed29bd2c08fcdb044931c1e16f99e99befa2b6cc815d9840246f7c73e9c7& [11:21:18] [3/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231927805638479942/image.png?ex=662799ac&is=6626482c&hm=23b7334c3a5015b6d2a44b151c2e31c1ccfc362e3b2953c3e0c3475651d7efbf& [11:21:18] [4/4] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231927805898395749/image.png?ex=6638bd2d&is=6626482d&hm=4de370dd81deddf4711a2c572ead6f61871ed3f7e4b3d5d90a4afb448468719a& [11:40:45] :ThinkerMH: [11:41:07] Youre missing an = sign on the second tabber, no? [11:41:22] Oh wait no, youve just got it on a different line [11:41:50] Shouldn't the first tabber have a |-|? [12:17:07] That doesn't seem to change anything [12:20:44] [1/3] Also some pages aren't entirely affected (as in, they have the bullet list active on more than just the first tabber) like the one here, but it's still affected by the first bullet point not actually being a bullet point. [12:20:44] [2/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231942766708392007/image.png?ex=6638cb1b&is=6626561b&hm=2f7c9ac06b7873120fe10c195071660ba683cbe8e577855706357bfa677825d9& [12:20:45] [3/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231942766922174534/image.png?ex=6638cb1c&is=6626561c&hm=681fb20797f3d05441d0a51074a1a597a370d74737957ca1816e5df06411f409& [12:22:00] [[mw:Extension:TabberNeue]] [12:22:00] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TabberNeue [12:22:01] [12:22:06] [1/2] Though Keith's semi-working might be due to how the second entry is a  [12:22:06] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231943109651337236/image.png?ex=6627a7ed&is=6626566d&hm=50562bde07fb0ab86648de6ffeb5fdc39b9378fa47fe3002bea95c65cea7d1a4& [12:23:50] Erm, yes, this is the extension we are using. [12:25:07] I wanted to check documentation [12:25:20] so make these quick links [12:25:29] I don't know what's wrong [12:27:09] Wonder if it was updated recently and that broke something? [14:18:59] [1/2] New wiki request 👌 [14:18:59] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1231972524787634176/image0.png?ex=6638e6d2&is=662671d2&hm=48ecc0f079b265b6915ea75b3ee45c94639924b56f61dac85eeaaebe864d6402& [15:01:35] I would suggest the ability to protect pages for a period would be a far better solution [15:02:46] I'm personally not sure if that is a wise decision at the moment, considering that you are still involved at the other wiki's [15:03:24] Also @rodejong could you move your #discord-forums post to #support? [15:04:24] ? [15:04:39] the FAQ on wiki requests [15:04:54] [1/5] no idea what the budget looks like, however I can advocate for the extension antispam by cleantalk [15:04:55] [2/5] - $12.00/year for 1 domain and covers all subdomains [15:04:55] [3/5] - no more captchas, instead aims to only target bots with _hidden_ html elements meant to trap and ban without impacting real users [15:04:55] [4/5] - less need for 24/7 volunteers to monitor [15:04:55] [5/5] this could reduce use of checkuser and abusefilter for bots, maybe impacts vandals [15:05:41] budget is available at [[Finance]] to the best of my knowledge [15:05:41] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Finance [15:05:42] [15:05:51] is extension matching mediawiki version, check this first [15:07:54] looks like there are funds, just a matter of _if_ this is a reasonable expense [15:08:19] I have to say, the discord mod role color is very hard to read in dark mode [15:08:22] How do I even check that? All I can really do is check the box to enable or disable the extension. [15:08:24] yeah, cc if any @CVT members have familiarity with the extension? [15:08:31] I don’t personally but others might [15:08:40] that it is [15:08:51] I used it before with Hypoverse.org, that basically stopped bots from mass registering [15:09:09] and its less annoying compared to confirm edit [15:13:21] Interesting [15:13:51] Since we have various domains, we'd probably need some sort of unlimited edition [15:14:08] Have to love how Silicona just copied and pasted half my RfF to fit their absolutely broken request [15:14:19] Anyway [15:14:20] ? [15:14:48] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1231846153792782386/1231846153792782386 [15:14:57] WHat's with that? [15:15:18] Might be best to move it to #support as #discord-forums is primarily meant for Discord-related stuff [15:19:26] You mean open a new thread in support? But in Support it will just move down. I thought that the forum was to have a section with FAQ's to draw from when helping on support. [15:19:36] Support can have pinned threads [15:20:01] Okay. How do I pin a thread? [15:20:07] You can't, I can [15:20:11] Okay [15:21:39] ah yeah sorry should’ve mentioned, I can pin it [15:23:18] You had me confused 😄 [15:24:01] yep sorry lol, have also locked the thread so your message remains the only one there [15:24:07] to not clog the thread [15:24:26] oh @agentisai beat me to it [15:24:55] we should have an infobox one too…. [15:25:06] j [15:25:24] What is this place? [15:26:32] @theoneandonlylegroom [15:26:47] Something you would like to put some effort in? [15:26:59] Is this a discord for wiki creators? [15:27:08] discord for Miraheze overall [15:27:18] Just ask 😉 [15:27:56] Dunno where it went but [15:28:03] Don’t ask to ask, just ask. [15:28:43] @brandon.wm [15:28:48] Did you Unpin? [15:28:54] No [15:29:01] i just deleted the pin message [15:29:03] it’s annoying [15:29:05] what [15:29:25] I think ro was asking if you’d be up to create an infobox support thread in #support ort of [15:30:27] Indeed. Just like: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1231988529563697264 [15:31:00] Does any of you know a discord for wikpedia creators? [15:31:15] I am a wiki creator. Just ask [15:31:52] Unsure what you mean @mingde1776 - could you clarify? Do you mean Wikipedia as in the platform, or wikis overall? [15:32:07] Yes, Wikipedia the platform [15:32:15] Ah sorry, that’s not us [15:32:23] discord.gg/wikipedia [15:32:29] There is no wikicreator for Wikipedia [15:32:36] Thank you 🙂 [15:32:49] this too by the way [16:19:43] how do i change default skin to every wiki visitor to monobook? anonymous visitors still see vector-2022 😕 [16:21:18] (including me loading my wiki from another browser) [16:22:04] its important, because im going to customize monobook [16:24:41] If I remember it's Special:ManageWiki/settings [16:24:43] In style [16:39:14] i did it, but it only works for me as logged in user and bureaucrat of wiki [16:40:31] I guess it's not suppose to happen that way [16:40:35] Maybe cache issue [16:48:05] try it out too, what skin do you see? riftsol.miraheze.org [16:48:40] vector 2022 [16:48:50] doesnt work at all it means [16:48:50] Indeed [16:48:51] 😐 [16:49:00] monobook is set as default [16:49:09] But I see monobook on "permisson error" page [16:49:18] [1/2] None [16:49:18] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232010351818838036/Screenshot_2024-04-22-18-49-03-597_org.mozilla.firefox.jpg?ex=66390a0d&is=6626950d&hm=cbeff77e1849dd6b0f5e40e79828f6dd74dbfffda3430d8f08ff6bfa4d76217b& [16:50:45] 😔 [16:51:54] Can you send the link to your WikiManager? [16:52:07] See what is selected. [16:52:50] https://riftsol.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:ManageWiki/settings#mw-section-styling [16:53:00] its 'monobook' under $wgDefaultSkin 🥺 [16:53:32] Ah no permission to view that [16:53:51] You did save your choice? [16:54:11] ofc i did, even two times [16:54:25] Just making sure. [16:54:57] Please try selecting a different one, save it, then try again Monobook [16:55:33] Perhaps the Wikimanager needs a kick 😉 [16:55:57] [1/8] Oh I remember a solution to this issue, try adding some ```` (in order to prevent the automatic space trimming which otherwise messes up the lists) - something like: [16:55:57] [2/8] ``` [16:55:58] [3/8] Tiger & Bunny - The Rising - King of Works= [16:55:58] [4/8] [list here] [16:55:58] [5/8] [16:55:59] [6/8] |-| [16:55:59] [7/8] Miscellaneous= [16:55:59] [8/8] [list here - and so on]``` [16:56:10] Could be the system cache hanging. [16:57:01] I think he has a supportthread on that open. [16:57:38] Oh wait I didn't see any :ThinkerMH: [16:57:39] okay, now it seems working, probably just cache on the server side got update or something, thank you 😊 [16:57:52] Your welcome! [17:14:42] Should be fixed I think [17:15:15] Works for me logged out after clearing local cache now anyway. [17:47:50] Yeah, sometimes fooling the sytem helps 😄 [17:49:57] [1/2] It seems WikiTide is going through then. [17:49:58] [2/2] https://commons.miraheze.org/wiki/File:Powered_by_WikiTide.svg [18:03:09] Seems like I'm not allowed to load the page [18:03:15] But the html does load [18:03:22] Are you logged in? [18:05:48] No [18:05:56] Maybe it's the problem [18:06:12] Ah i see no one seems to be listening: https://commons.miraheze.org/wiki/File:Powered_by_WikiTide.svg ? [18:06:15] But there is no button to login tho [18:06:26] well i was misled [18:06:43] I just posted it above 😄 [18:06:55] yeh i saw so i just posted my comment [18:07:27] They ignore it anyway [18:07:47] They do not care what the community thinks. [18:08:05] they misled the SRE team [18:08:19] They misled everyone [18:09:05] they started pushing wikitide for the server names which we discussed and was to improve security (keep the servers off the miraheze domain). They said they would take it up with the community for a rename. [18:09:21] i was fine with the server name as it made sense [18:09:31] Yup. [18:09:41] but now it's all coming into play that they use misleading to get what they want. How can you'll trust that? [18:09:57] what's next, ads? [18:10:31] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/903395171981459507 [18:10:49] I said it before. [18:11:38] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Miraheze%27s_name_and_branding#Comments [18:11:41] What is going on? [18:11:44] I made a statement there [18:12:07] [1/2] It seems WikiTide is going through. [18:12:07] [2/2] https://commons.miraheze.org/wiki/File:Powered_by_WikiTide.svg [18:12:17] Agent has uploaded a new logo [18:15:15] I was hoping it wouldn't come to this, but I am considering starting a petition to keep the Miraheze name and if the board doesn't start listening to the community and cease rebranding immediately, I will proceed; the Board should be subject to the community wishes, not blatantly disregard them unless required by law [18:15:36] I support that [18:17:39] You build trust stone by stone. But Trust is broken easily with a wrecking ball. That trust will not be build up again in the same pace. [18:18:27] Can't describe it better with my language barrier. [18:18:33] Slipperly slope. First small things, then big things. The end is Miraheze could become FANDOM [18:19:03] it already is FANDOm [18:19:07] First rename, then what? Ads. [18:19:20] It will just end up with more users leaving, then acquiring [18:19:37] That's an excellent idea! I'll make sure to get started it on right away and I'll be sure to attribute this fabulous idea to you. I'll start right after I finish replying to Fandom's email where they said they'll pay us a handsome amount if we sell the platform. [18:19:41] Nothing like ads!!!! $$$$ [18:19:45] Gah. [18:20:09] Sorry, but your sarcasm is totally misplaced here bro [18:20:33] This hurts more then a broken tooth, [18:20:38] indeed [18:20:39] Everyone's fanaticism is very misplaced. There are plenty of other fields where we can devote our time versus fighting online [18:20:53] I will admit, my own fanaticism in the platform is equally misplaced [18:21:07] I am glad I moved to self host before it was too late. [18:21:17] I've always said I've been Miraheze's #1 fan, always eager to help do something that will grow the platform and I'm so so proud of everything we've accomplished [18:21:24] I think listening to the community is more important than pushing your idea through [18:21:35] Why would I devote enough hours to the platform a week to be considered a part-time employee if I didn't care? [18:21:55] Too late for what? Stop doomsaying [18:22:15] That doesn't help either [18:22:16] it is too late tbqh [18:22:25] i'd recommend moving elsewhere or someone starting a new wiki farm tbqh. They just don't seem to be listening. Also i wouldn't waste time, they aren't changing their minds. [18:22:33] Violating the community's trust and treating our opinions like shit is definitely not something becoming of "Miraheze's #1 Fan" [18:22:35] Paladox, you're doomsayer #1 here [18:22:52] think you'd fine i'm just giving you the hard truths [18:23:02] Your emotions went way too high last time and you came back to not edify but to severely criticize and say "move before it's too late!!" [18:23:14] I appreciate all your work, I really do, but those are not hard truths [18:23:22] The platform is stronger than ever before [18:23:38] stronger? [18:23:45] [1/2] @agentisai You didn't comment my statement here: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Miraheze%27s_name_and_branding#Comments [18:23:46] [2/2] I would suggest that you or another board member replies with a well thought comment. [18:23:48] you are living on another planet 😂 [18:23:55] no wonder why you aren't listening [18:24:09] lol [18:24:28] I'll probably do you one better actually [18:25:03] The Boards' silence has been deafening [18:25:19] Just hoping it would blow over [18:25:21] There's much more important things to handle, not everything is on-wiki [18:25:34] What am I reading [18:25:36] What happened while I was gone this time [18:25:42] fanaticism [18:25:46] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [18:25:47] Agent uploaded a new logo [18:25:47] Confusion. [18:26:00] Powered by WikiTide [18:26:00] Yes, I like how very clearly that new web badge will be the one used [18:26:01] I would like to bang my head against a wall [18:26:08] "Powered"? This isn't a CMS [18:26:11] Maybe things will; get better [18:26:15] Obviously that won't be a web badge that'll be used [18:26:17] I would like for the moderators to moderate [18:26:34] /ban everyone [18:26:35] https://commons.miraheze.org/wiki/File:Powered_by_WikiTide.svg [18:26:36] this entire situation is confusing me [18:26:37] problem solved [18:26:42] Me too [18:26:43] Yeah, that badge won't be uded [18:26:53] Then why upload it? [18:27:00] to not lose it in my files [18:27:20] I don't buy that [18:27:28] sigh [18:27:37] very well Ro [18:27:48] I won't debate with you, of all people, because we mustn't [18:28:06] As I said, you build trust. [18:28:13] What's going on? [18:28:15] Painful. [18:28:23] People debating [18:28:26] The past few weeks has not shown us trust [18:28:35] that's a funny way of saying "going apeshit" [18:28:53] So agent uploads new badge he don’t intent to use and now there’s a potential petition to revert the rebrand or else something and paladox suggesting Raidarr 2.0 [18:28:53] my god guys it's a god damn image on commons [18:28:56] I'm most pained that everything we've done is not appreciated but instead, is now secondary and won't ever be appreciated [18:29:02] Did I miss anything [18:29:11] that doesn't change the badge displayed on the footer [18:29:12] Financial and server stability is not important, no, chasing our tails is [18:29:14] Either way, does anybody need support? [18:29:31] I can understand that [18:29:46] A "god damn" image on Commons that suggest that the rename is proceeding, which is more important [18:29:54] If you want support, I am here to try and help. [18:29:56] it is not [18:30:06] We never said that. We do appreciate most that is done. Just not everything. Clearly [18:30:07] My DMs, and pings are open for such a thing [18:30:08] I cant apologize for it on behalf of the community, but I can at least say on my own behalf, I really wish that wasn’t the case. [18:30:37] if it was proceeding, I would know because it would eventually go through SRE to change badges and domains [18:30:47] This hurts more then my rotting teeth. 😦 [18:30:56] Well then take care of that first then [18:31:02] a [18:31:38] I am a little upset. [18:31:40] if the badge means nothing, then agent won't mind deleting it or adding to file description "this is for archive purposes" [18:32:58] 😕 [18:33:04] This is an outsized reaction to a file being uploaded, going to ask for a reduction of temperature of conversation please. [18:33:13] [1/4] It's a bad signal to give. [18:33:14] [2/4] You upload an image "Powered by WikiTide. [18:33:14] [3/4] That gives a bad taste due to the fact that a RfC is open about the rebranding. [18:33:14] [4/4] Uploading that image is at least bad timing, but rather suspect given the circumstances [18:33:36] Does a anybody want to talk about support matters? [18:33:44] nah [18:33:46] I don't even think it's bad timing [18:33:48] we dramaing tonight it seems [18:33:50] Everyone's quality of life would improve if they went outside and stopped arguing worse than an ANI thread [18:33:53] isn't support handled in the support forum? [18:34:00] Showing off possible assets during an RfC is fairly sensible [18:34:13] It’s a image. It was uploaded in a way that was poorly communicated. That’s it [18:34:15] I guess, but unless you want to talk about CSS or something? [18:34:15] It’s an image [18:34:21] Please calm down everyone [18:34:23] Long-term support; quick support is done in this channel usually [18:34:38] A image is no reason to flame people [18:34:41] So, how hard is Vector 2022 to theme? [18:34:49] @theburningfirethatscorchessouls not helping [18:35:05] _hisses._ [18:35:18] What do you want to talk about? [18:35:35] Somewhat complicated if you don't understand CSS very well [18:35:56] that's a good question since WMF built the new skin on top of old...that makes it slightly more difficult to me [18:36:24] ust wonder if it is hard vs Vector 2010, as I am considering moving to it once LTS next verson comes out around Dec [18:36:51] Community independence and democracy are also important, though not to WikiTide Foundation it seems. Everyone has different priorities, I wouldn't act shocked that people are prioritising what is important to them [18:36:54] I suggest people with nothing useful to say consider not talking. We'd do better if we didn't jump to conclusions and acted out ages. [18:38:01] I would also like to point out, 3 directors currently undergoing the election from the community haven't answered the questions the community has posed to them on their stance on this matter. [18:38:14] Why did they build it on the old? Why not ust start from nothing? [18:38:14] "Nothing useful" ahum. [18:38:40] basically they wanted to reuse the bulk of core code [18:38:50] I suggest users consider voting. It's a good way to show your thoughts. [18:39:13] IHmm, what do you think of that? [18:39:25] [1/3] I do you one better: [18:39:25] [2/3] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Miraheze%27s_name_and_branding#Comments [18:39:26] [3/3] But I haven't received any answer on that! [18:39:29] Sensible [18:39:43] I mean, I like both 2010 and 2022 I decided [18:40:00] I also would urge users to consider voting in said election, especially considering the candidates standing are currently on the board and would have supported the rename and currently not supporting the community's right to have a say [18:40:51] Is axing 3 members from the board with no alternative the best option here [18:41:16] Is giving 3 members a community platform when they disregard an option? [18:41:53] I wouldn't mind not being on the Board, actually. It's a lot of responsibility that I have to deal with (grants, infra, legal correspondence, etc.) but I'm not sure if anyone can fill in for me [18:42:03] I have been disappointed in certain actions by the foundation recently. [18:42:29] And I haven't supported all 3 candidates in the current election. [18:42:39] Also, if you want to talk about skins with me, #vector skin is the thread [18:43:22] Tearing ourselves apart trying to resolve this isn’t a way to move forward however [18:43:26] [1/2] All the community asks, is stop pushing the WikiTide narrative. At least for now. [18:43:26] [2/2] Listen to the community, and peace and calmness will return! [18:43:27] We do still have a fairly low volunteer count though. We are doing better than certain times but still pretty awful. [18:43:35] just leave the board tbh, you already have enough hats imo [18:43:50] I would but who'll handle everything I do! \:P [18:43:54] come with me to SRE 😈 [18:44:09] the dark side 😱 [18:44:10] outsource or smth idk [18:44:12] Playing the free card is low though - I did it for 4 years for free through loads of rough situations, but I still ensured the community had a say in big ticket items [18:44:41] Can we consider not saying playing certain cards is low [18:44:42] The Board was extremely slow moving under your tenure though [18:45:01] I think we've accomplished an incredible deal in just 4 months [18:45:05] moving fast and angering the community isn't the answer [18:45:21] Yes, such as the complete distrust of the community [18:45:30] We've accomplished a lot in some areas but I don't think we've done well in all. [18:46:09] Also WikiTide has a board double the size MHL ever did and infact triple at most times [18:46:10] not really a bad thing per se actually [18:46:30] [1/4] I just repeat it again: [18:46:30] [2/4] ```The way you have handled this has the community heated, mostly as they feel deceived. It would suite the board if they said: Okay, this is not how we should have done this. Let's wait for a year and return to this question again. [18:46:31] [3/4] For you, to be trusted, you need to listen to the community who selected you. What you have done here broke the trust of the community. [18:46:31] [4/4] That's the biggest stain on WikiTide, before it even is implemented!``` [18:46:33] I can see why people may like an ultra-conservative board that just does the minimum necessary [18:46:58] is an ultra-conservative slow Board what people want? [18:47:14] we'll find out soon enough with the elections [18:47:23] I think certain members of the board are probably too involved when using that hat [18:47:24] A board that listens to the community is what we want [18:47:28] We don't have to wait that long ngl [18:47:43] I think what the people want is a board that doesn't change the identity of the project, ask their say on it and then go "oh well we decided before we asked you so we don't care" [18:47:45] So yes, I do feel the board are using the fact they are the board too much [18:48:54] I feel it more likely the election will be decided by people’s opinions on this situation specifically instead of overall thoughts on the candidates since this is what’s on everyone’s mind and has the greatest weight on reputation [18:49:11] just like real elections then [18:49:17] Precisely [18:50:28] Welcome to politics [18:51:33] yay wiki politics [18:51:45] [1/3] Not at all. And I don't mind sharing my thoughts: [18:51:45] [2/3] I voted positive for all three, because I see what they have done, and still can do. I don't let one issue influence a whole election. [18:51:46] [3/3] I just think that this is one matter I don't agree with and feel that it is pulled over our heads. [18:51:52] I hate wiki politics [18:52:14] @robla has an entire wiki on how elections work @pixldev [18:52:41] I can agree with this sentiment I think mostly [18:52:42] Also what has git done to you [18:53:03] oh boy [18:53:26] We always seem to be a drama magnet, unfortunately. I was hoping the 2023 scuffles wouldn't occur in 2024 [18:53:39] I forgot to clear the git history from the boilerplate extension https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1099734840624033991/1231744040584740997/SGUx6CY.png?ex=66279747&is=662645c7&hm=bdf3f3c5d6e34f36c18bbd3cefe056c2ae3c1951335693d88ad0a65b6bb08b08& [18:53:50] I just don’t git this stuff [18:53:55] Tall trees catch a lot of wind. You know that when you accept a role. [18:54:08] I wonder what started teh drama [18:54:09] I think we also hate this wiki politics stuff and would prefer to focus our times more efficiently. Which is why I would emplore the Foundation to run an RfC and enact the community thoughts - so we can all get back to focusing on more important things [18:54:34] Drop the .git folder and the run git init [18:54:39] Agent uploaded an image "Powered by WikiTide" [18:54:51] Yeah I’ll prob do that I was trying to use git squash [18:54:54] Yes [18:55:03] Yeah no [18:55:07] yeah that not what I meant, kinda ritorical question xd [18:55:36] What is git squash? [18:55:53] I’d second this. We contribute to Miraheze because we enjoy it right? Let’s just get back to doing what we enjoy [18:56:13] ye [18:56:17] If the pain and drama of wiki politics and arguing takes over the work we enjoy doing [18:56:17] Keyword their being Miraheze. Not WikiTide [18:56:26] That’s how you kill a farm and a community [18:56:54] Pushing the community over does that for you [18:57:13] Who wants to talk about skins with me in #vector skin ? [18:57:26] please stop asking [18:57:34] oh yeah, about that. [18:57:34] you asked once, people will join if they want to [18:57:58] Athria is trying to divert away from the anger to a new topic [18:58:22] Since my phone and stuff are fine now, I'll donate Miraheze tomorrow or so. [18:58:23] you aren't diverting the anger until the topic is sorted tho [18:59:24] I kind of wonder why the WikiTide Foundation is so scared of asking the community it's opinions on the rename - likely because they know it will be rejected and forcing it is the only way to achieve it [18:59:32] Unless the board accepts that the community want's something different than them, This won't go away [19:02:15] [1/2] wikitide folks split because they were not happy yet unsure if have brought up the unhappy parts to resolve has been attempted at all. [19:02:15] [2/2] from what I see is this. WikiTide already has IRS approval as a 501c3 non profit and the idea is to use that as the base to merge Miraheze. yes this would save time and expenses of having to refile the 501c3 nonprofit status with IRS. [19:02:38] after getting told on merger RfC that possible rebrand will be discussed w/ community [19:02:41] ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ [19:03:00] This has been a very productive day [19:03:07] [1/2] i just can't believe some people think they would be able to do a rename without push back from the community. It's a brand. Lots of people know it whether it's positive or negative. Maybe Agent and cos who keep pushing back against those criticising the move would instead sort the issue today that would sort things out and allow people to get back to normal. Instead they are being o [19:03:07] [2/2] btuse to the situation, throwing sarcastic comments at serious comments and acting unprofessionally. [19:03:34] maybe stop with that? Seeing as you are on the board who can put a stop to this convo by resolving it? [19:03:56] @agentisai please (per DM) [19:04:31] Well I can't do anything. I have spare time to kill so I decided to come out to get mauled and devoured after Labster did the same [19:05:02] mauled? [19:05:21] I wish the topic could be dropped. [19:06:31] [1/3] @agentisai You as a board member uploaded an image. "Powered by WikiTide" [19:06:32] [2/3] Don't you think that people won't recognise that as having weight. [19:06:32] [3/3] Either you think it doesn't, or your timing is really off! [19:06:52] You could use the spare time to answer the question on your Board Elections Page in relation to the rename so the community can fairly decide if they agree with your views and wish to have you represent them as a Director [19:06:53] That's why I reacted to it! [19:07:11] Actually, thanks for the refresher, I completely forgot that was why we're here embroiled in controversy (like for real) lol [19:07:23] That's true. We could all use our spare time productively [19:07:48] dude [19:07:59] If that is your come back answer! LOL There is no hope! [19:08:22] er [19:08:28] that's a bit sad to see [19:08:38] I agree [19:08:43] Very sad [19:09:08] Is there some better topic to discuiss? [19:09:10] (Friendly nudge to everyone to calm down just a bit) [19:09:57] Can everyone talking in here please consider going for a walk and thinking [19:09:58] until this is resolved; no [19:10:04] It seems the board members have absolutely nothing to say or bring to calm the community down, and ensure that they are listened to, and serve the community, not dominate it! [19:10:10] Or even better get up and take a short walk to do something more productive then this [19:10:27] I'm actually walking right now. It's helped me think about things a lot better [19:10:30] gotta add news bit to my niche wiki [19:10:38] News bit? [19:10:41] @agentisai put your phone down then [19:10:44] Interesting. Might try that later [19:10:52] @rodejong please cut it with the agitprop [19:10:56] I should, I nearly got run over lol [19:10:59] The lot of you need to settle for at least half an hour [19:11:05] Cause you're going round in circles [19:11:09] [1/2] news bit, my bad lol [19:11:09] [2/2] like new songs puclished, live show happened, etc [19:11:14] Please explain that word, as I have no idea what that is [19:11:15] I think it would be best for everyone involved to step back and calm down [19:11:25] And also as much as you're driving me mad, we've got bigger problems if you get hit by a car too [19:11:41] Do something you enjoy doing and we can come back to this civilly and productive l [19:11:49] I did like your wioki it is nice [19:11:56] thank u :3 [19:35:44] To try and clarify, under current policy as I understand it, 2 members will be appointed to 2 year terms and 2 to 1 year terms. I do not believe it’s possible to not have all 3 from the current Board votes elected, but I may be wrong in my understanding. [19:36:45] It’s just the ratio of supports to opposes that will result in which members are appointed to which terms, how I read it. [19:37:40] Oh all 3 are advocating for overriding the community? [19:37:46] I will update my vote to oppose all the [19:39:08] That's correct - but also, how is that relevant to my point? [19:39:27] Reception to my knowledge hasn’t said anything yet I think he’s been on a break for the past few days [19:39:53] The board approved it - of which all 3 are Members of - and no one has come out to say they don't so it's unfortunately an inference via silence [19:40:13] _let's out a very heavy sigh_ [19:40:33] I believe you were saying that people can make their voices heard by not electing Board members. Was just trying to clarify that while you can oppose, it won’t change that they’ll be elected. [19:41:20] He’s been on break which is why he hasn’t responded, yeah. [19:41:26] Jesus mate [19:41:26] Lucky him [19:41:36] kinda like "elections" in russia? [19:41:55] I just got here too and that was my exact reaction [19:42:23] If they get more opposes than support, they won't [19:42:25] I went on my phone hoping to see funny off topic and people laughing at me in tech.. [19:42:34] As far as I can tell, they still will be [19:42:46] There’s a requirement to fulfill 4 Board seats [19:42:56] Unless 4 don’t run (3 have), so then that number must be filled [19:43:01] "A candidate must receive a minimum of 10 votes of support to be considered by the Board." [19:43:03] I could be wrong [19:43:09] ah that’s it then [19:43:19] There is no requirement and the policy explicitly states "A candidate shall proceed to consideration before the Board if they receive more support than oppose votes." [19:43:20] The RfC wording was a bit confusing [19:43:59] hm you’re probably right - again I’m speaking off memory [19:44:00] To have an election to a legal position where by just showing up is enough to be elected would have been a serious lack of judgement shown [19:44:21] Yeah [19:45:18] [1/2] @owenrb [19:45:18] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232054644453146684/IMG_4393.png?ex=66280fcd&is=6626be4d&hm=166817248f3c8e4ededddd4149405bd50f8545deeb707970f1b87405cd4636a4& [19:45:35] I read that as a requirement, but again could be wrong [19:45:41] @owenrb I had to fight for the board not to hold the decryption key for the election so ye zero judgement was shown [19:45:50] for all interested parties: https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/WikiTide_Foundation_Community_Directors#Purpose [19:46:05] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232054843305103380/Screenshot_20240422-204538.png?ex=66280ffd&is=6626be7d&hm=88f658a4b7a7c14c9af3da6e0a4d69b03e58683f06e19b36113ffa21614eddd9& [19:46:09] No, that was the plan all along it seems [19:46:33] That was a very intresting meeting so I'll beg to differ [19:47:02] Harej had been planning that since before the CD RfC was published [19:47:07] if community directors fail, couldn’t the Board just appoint the ones that fail to appointed seats? [19:47:10] anyway…. [19:47:24] not the best thing to do though [19:47:29] Yes, and I wouldn't put it past the board currently to ignore the community [19:47:36] Thanks [19:47:38] Technically yes [19:47:47] I would hope not [19:47:52] It was more of a technical thing from me, not a comment on judgement. [19:48:21] Can we seriously consider being respectful [19:48:33] Or buggering off for the night [19:48:47] I’d second [19:49:04] Please yes, thank you [19:50:00] Atsjuh! [19:50:23] Is that French \j [19:50:30] Can I also ask that the disrespectful messages towards individuals also bugger off from my DM for the night too [19:52:05] Why don’t we all take a break from this? Clearly heated. Just a recommendation. [19:53:53] ….Harej left? [19:55:13] 😦 [20:01:07] Not standard french, could be from the east tho [20:04:27] Just a sneeze 😄 [20:12:26] ...and the cycle continues [20:12:35] back to the same behaviour from june [20:13:00] Let’s not [20:13:19] I'm just sitting here [20:13:21] Not what? [20:17:22] @tali64 this [20:24:08] ok so wtf is this about a rename without RfC?????!!!!! [20:24:36] [1/7] Question: [20:24:37] [2/7] Doesn't anyone see how dangerouse it's getting with the RfC here? [20:24:37] [3/7] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Requests_for_Comment/Global_Interface_Editor [20:24:37] [4/7] If all was approved, these users would have so much power to just do what they want with it. I know that everything get's logged, but giving permissions to people and wiki's having to opt out if they don't want interference... [20:24:37] [5/7] I do not know what to make of this. It sets a precedence we don't want to, I think. [20:24:38] [6/7] There have been adding so many ideas that such user would have almost full control of a wiki. [20:24:38] [7/7] Yes, it is nice to not have to explain users what they need to do to give you permissions, but at the same time it would make users feel uncomfortable what you were able to do. [20:25:00] You have not read it correctly at all [20:25:08] I have! [20:25:16] No, they would only edit interface if requested by wiki admins [20:25:23] Not whenever they want [20:25:30] That's not how our permissions model works for global roles [20:25:41] It is an RfC for a new role [20:25:47] If I learned something about admin privs from Minetest, it is they can be given for good reasons and then abused. [20:26:19] A proposal in that RfC explicitly says that the role will only be used if they requested by wiki admins [20:26:21] My thought exactly [20:26:34] Yes, same goes for every role. Should we never grant any role because it can be abused? [20:26:57] Yes, that describes how it should be used. However, what I'm saying is there's not technical restrictions preventing it from being used once a user has been given the role. [20:27:07] If you've got global, you've got global. [20:27:17] [1/2] Abuse would result in demotion [20:27:17] [2/2] The same applies to every global role [20:27:20] Then see something else, and without asking, thinking : "Oh hang on, I see that this is not correct. I'll fix that too" [20:27:21] Yep. [20:27:38] That would be explicitly forbidden by policy and be grounds for removal of rights [20:27:58] It's a moderate trust role with the potential for abuse, Stewards being a much more advanced version of this and requiring higher trust. [20:28:12] @rodejong , there's absolutely already precedent. [20:28:19] I can theoretically delete any wiki, block any user. [20:28:32] True, you as steward can [20:28:37] Have to be careful with roles that have high privs (Stewards, Discord Admins, the "admin" like roles) [20:29:06] Commuity has to trust them, and abuse must not be tolorated. [20:29:09] You can't give that to users who have no "authority role" [20:29:12] Yeah I know but they would only be promoted if trusted, some random person couldn't get the role, same goes for Stewards, global sysop, etc. The role can be abused but that does not mean it would be [20:29:26] That is what is proposed in the RfC [20:29:40] if wiki admins need a role for tech stuff, edit interface or other related; do not give out the ability to modify _user_ js or css. leave that to stewards [20:29:55] Yep, we're in agreement here, I'm just pointing out for Ro that there is prior precedent. [20:30:10] User CSS and JS is not affected, only the wiki's MediaWiki namespace [20:30:25] ok well I saw a few weeks ago there was a tech role with both [20:30:57] if someone screws up their account with css or js, let stewards handle it [20:31:03] Why not? It is possible to give advanced permissions without allowing the person with the permissions to misuse them. Trust would be required [20:31:12] don't mindlessly copy code [20:31:35] I just state that I think it is better to ask the wiki's bureaucrat temporary status, to such user. It will be explicitly given by that wiki's admin or crat. [20:31:47] Already dropped a more complete oppose on site [20:31:51] Different role has that and for a different purpose. GIE is only for editing a specific wiki's interface if permission is given [20:32:03] yes, you can grant on temporary basis but you still want to restrict the permissions [20:32:29] The crat can give the permissin for the task that is needed. [20:32:44] True but that would actually grant more permissions than GIE like local interface admins being able to edit all users' CSS by default [20:33:05] is referring to Interface administrators. WMF created it with the user css and js as default. that should be revoked [20:33:11] Also some wikis have very strange permission systems and roles that grant too many rights, GIE is specifically restrictive [20:34:37] Well if you could edit a wiki's interface you could do just as much damage as editing a specific user's CSS and JS [20:35:18] targeting a user's security via breaching cookies is still a high concern even if that same malicious code were put on common.js [20:35:23] (Also, to be 100% crisp, my clarification is not an endorsement for or against this role, I have not spent enough time to have a formal opinion on it) [20:36:00] Miraheze implements restrictions on what can be done with CSS and JS through CSP, I believe session cookies are HttpOnly as well [20:36:06] I’d rather looser rights granted by local crats on one wiki then slightly more restrictive on all wikis [20:36:21] i'm just saying, the only people that should ever have user js or css would be high level global staff [20:36:31] outside the user themself [20:36:58] i'm pointing out the security aspect [20:38:53] [1/2] The idea is that it becomes easier for local crats to request help without granting rights, it's just as easy for a volunteer to convince crats to give them rights and then disrupting the wiki as it is to get GIE, in fact likely easier. Same goes for requesting interface admin on Meta and adding malware to Meta. The role can be abused just as easily [20:38:53] [2/2] as any other role, it doesn't post a unique risk, hence why trust is needed. [20:39:36] I maybe partially understand that [20:39:37] The RfC does not change this nor does the proposed role have access to user CSS and JS [20:39:38] the thing is, you never want local wiki admins to be able to retaliate against a user in such a way that it interferes. example being adding a `* {display:none;}` to their css [20:40:12] ok, just pointing out a security concern of an existing role and to further explain on this [20:40:40] [1/6] ```js [20:40:40] [2/6] if(mw.config.values.wgUsername == "example") { [20:40:41] [3/6] document.body.innerHTML == "" [20:40:41] [4/6] } [20:40:41] [5/6] ``` [20:40:42] [6/6] in common.js, no specific user js and CSS required [20:40:54] It is possible to enable safe mode to disable wiki and user css and js though [20:41:41] There is always some risk, it is about weighing the benefits and downsides [20:41:52] And if they add js to steal tokens or smt? Too little too late [20:42:11] DMs [20:43:24] [1/5] You've been adding several ideas. It started with CSS and js, and then it became Global interface, then MediaWiki messages (why?) then json, then editing protected pages. [20:43:24] [2/5] To me this smells of unlimited access to wiki's. [20:43:24] [3/5] Even if the permission is granted to do one thing, but the GIE convinces that a few more things are needed, which the wikiuser has no idea of and says okay. [20:43:25] [4/5] Then you can say.. well he gave me the right and the user has no leg to stand on. [20:43:25] [5/5] The bigger the hat you wear, the more responsibility but also the more risk for abuse is possible. [20:44:01] That 3rd paragraph is possible already by convincing a wiki admin to give you rights, GIE makes no difference [20:44:30] I wouldn't trust anyone with such right. I would immediately seek opt-out from it. If I need help, I'd ask a person I trust [20:44:37] Not someone appointed [20:45:00] the way i see it, the rfc just wants just another useless hat [20:45:11] i dont see the need for the gie [20:45:21] Me neither [20:45:31] [1/2] 1st: MediaWiki messages and protected pages (mostly thinking of the main page and important templates) because they are part of the wiki interface, the purpose is to help wikis with the interface, hence "global interface editor" [20:45:32] [2/2] 2nd: It is not unlimited access. Stewards have unlimited access, should that group be deleted? [20:45:34] raidarr makes all the points needed [20:45:49] If you read the RfC, you would see the reason for the hat to exist. [20:45:56] Already replied to all his points [20:46:03] More worried someone does the wiki verson of "WorldEdit delete spawn" (maybe messing up the CSS badly) [20:46:06] There are 3 for and 6 against in point 1. [20:46:20] The proposal has been open for 1 day [20:46:21] if a wiki needs js, css, json help then you appoint someone to a tech role for temporary basis [20:46:28] Yet again already possible [20:46:31] isn't started from new users often not being able to understand/make propoper setting w/ our usual guidance? [20:46:34] Already answered [20:46:39] Yes [20:47:19] Those users will never last [20:47:29] [1/3] > > The idea is that it becomes easier for local crats to request help without granting rights, it's just as easy for a volunteer to convince crats to give them rights and then disrupting the wiki as it is to get GIE, in fact likely easier. Same goes for requesting interface admin on Meta and adding malware to Meta. The role can be abused just as easily as any other rol [20:47:29] [2/3] e, it doesn't post a unique risk, hence why trust is needed. [20:47:29] [3/3] > That 3rd paragraph is possible already by convincing a wiki admin to give you rights, GIE makes no difference [20:47:42] If they don't want to learn, we can't do everything for them. [20:47:51] that's pretty much how I joined Pizza Tower Wiki, now just checking once in while [20:48:08] Great, in that case, you can. You can opt out by never explicitly requesting a GIE to edit your interface and they won't. If they do, that is grounds for revoking the right. [20:48:29] Soical Engeering someone into giving you privs happens on Minetest sometimes, so on wikis maybe happens too [20:48:58] Correct. It does. What does this have to do with the RfC? That is possible regardless. [20:49:00] i think that if they need help we can assign local permissions, we don't need another global permission [20:49:05] a volunteer is someone that demonstrates trust or is someone trusted with the skills to assist, usually in this case if an admin knows someone; its a matter of asking and giving the temporary role [20:49:10] Yet again already answered [20:49:32] I personly am not for or agist it, myself [20:49:55] Correct, why does that make my reasoning incorrect? Nothing in this RfC creates a new risk. Tricking local wiki admins into giving you rights is already possible. [20:50:11] I'm kinda neutral on it tbh [20:50:18] [1/3] What if a user get's beef with a GIE, and that GIE takes revenge? [20:50:18] [2/3] Yes that user can get his rights revoked. But the damage has already be done. [20:50:19] [3/3] Also, some users might have alternative motives to gain trust and get those roles. [20:50:20] i think there are some pros and cons about it [20:50:36] i probably wont oppose it, probably wont support it [20:50:45] Change GIE to Steward, SRE, and Trust & Safety. Should all those rights be deleted under this reasoning? [20:50:50] Wiki edits are easy to revert [20:50:58] Indeed [20:51:00] I can’t imagine there’d be anything lasting [20:51:15] If they weren't Miraheze would no longer exist because of vandals and admins who abuse their power [20:51:17] [1/3] in regards to global stewards or admins, their access to such is limited to certain actions rather than provide tech assistance. [20:51:17] [2/3] this role's purpose is to provide such tech assistance [20:51:18] [3/3] that's the main diff [20:51:37] Yes. Tech assistance is a smaller scope than Stewards and global sysops. [20:51:39] I revert edits sometimes when I find vandalism [20:51:56] ive never really been into cvt work lol [20:52:04] I don't rhink trust is a concern if implemented correctly [20:52:06] I enjoy cvt [20:52:17] i simply cannot stare at #cvt-feed-experimental for hours at a time weeding out vandalism [20:52:28] I agree though I worry this isn’t “correctly” [20:52:29] Few do really [20:52:41] I'd enjoy more if there was more vandalism to revert [20:52:56] i would prefer there to be less vandalism [20:52:57] Not too much though because then it'd be too hard [20:53:13] Well yes same but I mean I enjoy cleaning it up [20:53:17] If the proposal gets winning traction I will consider throwing votes at sub proposals [20:54:04] [1/3] I think there should be written better guides, [20:54:05] [2/3] in stead of doing the things for them. [20:54:05] [3/3] Explain it in laymen terms [20:54:15] Human made? [20:54:18] That often is the issue [20:54:47] Yes, there should be, but that will take a long time and still it is not reasonable to expect people with no interest in computers to learn CSS, JS, and Lua just to make a wiki [20:54:47] https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1231988529563697264 [20:55:36] Yes that is a nice guide [20:55:39] Creating guides for wiki management is great but it is unreasonable to expect people to be learning to code to be able to manage their wiki properly [20:55:40] That's why Development Wiki should be a repository for simple things. To tell them. Copy this to there. [20:55:53] Indeed it should but that will still not cover every need [20:56:32] I will try to work on creating more devwiki content soon actually [20:56:47] But again premade templates and scripts still can't cover every wiki [20:58:03] We will never win trying to appease every last one [20:59:11] What I mean is that some wikis need specific templates and scripts for their wiki that aren't useful elsewhere, every wiki following the same format isn't reasonable, hence why some wikis need specialized help [20:59:29] That's why css and js access exists after all [20:59:31] And such help is already possible [20:59:49] Yes but the proposal here would make it easier, again see above comments I already made [21:00:24] I simply don't agree to the extent of expanding the global group list [21:00:26] I'm on sentiment if you are an admin of a wiki, sooner or later you have to learn things [21:00:30] True. But I feel that some users would love the idea too much. [21:00:56] Exactly [21:01:26] I know but it is reasonable to try to limit what needs to be learned because some wiki admins are just not able to understand everything [21:01:30] I say the same a lot when talking to new developers [21:01:32] editors by all means don't have the need in CSS/JS [21:01:34] And if you can't, give up the idea, and create something different [21:01:38] Learning to code is useless [21:01:40] wait [21:01:42] You need to learn to learn [21:01:43] can someone ping Agent [21:01:45] I tried LUA [21:01:45] where is he [21:01:52] <@529521187492069396> [21:01:59] agent left? [21:01:59] Agent left? [21:02:02] uh [21:02:04] I guess so…. [21:02:09] that's unfortunate [21:02:15] He left. Honestly good for him [21:02:22] lemme go on PC to make sure because my phone sucks [21:02:25] ?? [21:02:29] i checked and he indeed left [21:02:32] we are now without 2 Discord admins and a mod-in-progress [21:02:33] Collei please [21:02:33] Nope I checked mutual servers [21:03:11] im confused [21:03:13] why did they leave [21:03:35] Likely because they were being borderline bullied [21:03:41] We're not sure; we're not even sure if Agent did leave [21:03:45] He did [21:03:56] Let him take a break [21:04:17] [1/2] the 1 mutual shows yes [21:04:18] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232074523470467082/image.png?ex=66282251&is=6626d0d1&hm=96c88e8a2b68f05e4edc838373980904162498c8bab3514263aaa48889b8b221& [21:04:34] Wait [21:04:37] Harej also left [21:04:42] He left the community role server as well [21:04:44] I would substitute "being held accountable" [21:04:48] Really? [21:04:56] yes harej left too [21:04:58] I’m not arguing this rn [21:05:02] He did [21:05:06] [1/2] I'm fine w/ helping to total newbies, explaining and shoeing stuff, but I see there's 0 desire to learn and do thing by themsleves, it's really becomes not pleasant exprience [21:05:07] [2/2] w/ a whole ass group you can get same - some of them will refuse to learn and undestand and would ask you, for example, replicate the glory of Pizza Tower Wiki CSS [21:05:15] I would agree, lets not. [21:05:22] no, he did [21:05:29] So... [21:05:34] ^ [21:06:21] folks were asked to go take a break [21:06:24] Anyone else feel like we've seen this before/ [21:06:25] Let them [21:06:35] at least once before [21:07:08] okay, they let them have a break [21:07:28] I assume leaving was considered a resignation of their permissions. [21:07:38] last thing we want is new whatever you call what happened in June [21:07:47] Already true [21:07:52] not necessarily [21:08:00] I'll try to avoid drama [21:08:09] I checked and agent hasn’t removed his on wiki rights [21:08:17] harej and agent leave why? :ThinkerMH: [21:08:39] like this genuinely is confusing [21:08:49] Agent has not resigned any permission accept Discord admin. Please stop speculating and leave it at that. [21:08:55] ^ [21:08:55] Okay [21:09:09] jumping to conclusions isn't beneficial [21:09:25] [1/2] Christ globe [21:09:25] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232075815425015928/image.png?ex=66282385&is=6626d205&hm=2ba6d4bde84e511f7a04f3795f3c233126f26ce193729b535d99191d8e7a01a1& [21:09:39] Thank you kindly for the clarification [21:10:22] A WikiGnome's work is never done [21:10:33] A change to the devwiki main page may be a good idea [21:10:44] I think we should try to base it off of the Fandom main page [21:10:51] Discuss that first [21:10:57] That is what I am doing.. [21:11:07] On wiki I mean [21:11:11] Oh I see [21:11:19] RfC [21:11:47] I'm not per def. against it. [21:12:01] Would like to see an example though [21:12:16] I don't want to open an RfC yet because I don't have any firm plans [21:12:40] A post on the noticeboard likely [21:15:35] for all the good it does I personally have no exit plans [21:17:08] Same [21:17:25] Me too [21:17:33] Although I may not be as active when I have things to do irl [21:18:17] I am a pensioner. All the time in the world I thought. I'm even more busier then when I was working 😛 [21:19:25] probably ill timing but I've also thought of putting a hat in the ring to potentially alleviate the steward end of business again, much as that might be its own tricky business [21:25:14] should probably start press ganging techies into sre while we're at it [21:25:58] Would be interesting, although learning to manage a production website isn’t exactly the same as say learning to become a WC or Gs [21:26:11] we start somewhere [21:26:17] see reception for a humble origins story [21:26:20] Indeed [21:26:32] Heh [21:26:46] he's still not terribly confident in himself but remains a stable block for techy business even though what we really need is on the programming end [21:26:46] 9 years has its benefits [21:27:08] As someone trying to learn extensions develop [21:27:11] Kill me [21:27:17] it was some years before he shedded what he'd admit were some 'cir' tendencies of his own [21:28:46] But yeah system administration aside Mediawiki is a really large and complex codebase. Though note I’m brand new to this so it may seem harder to me then it is [21:29:15] it will take time of course, hopefully time that we have [21:29:58] Yup [21:30:34] was tempted to nominate you for discord mod tbh [21:33:41] PixDeVl refused Discord Moderator: https://discord.com/channels/407504499280707585/1225560610628964423/1229197477849202801 [21:35:28] it's been an odd week [21:35:45] did harej leave??? [21:35:48] yes [21:36:08] It's been a long week [21:36:10] I suppose that voids the ongoing election in that area [21:36:18] I closed it [21:36:18] It’s been closed [21:36:19] indeed, that too [21:36:36] It’s been a week [21:36:56] I can't believe it's only the second day of the week... [21:37:04] that's reassuring [21:37:17] Not for me. I have to wait 2 minutes still [21:37:30] I fully expect the second fifth? coming of john any day now [21:38:02] This issue technically only began Thursday [21:38:28] third day of my work week [21:38:42] I ought to get phone set up properly so I can cvt with that again [21:39:01] oh yeah, just notice that we'd lost lv2 boosts now [21:39:11] they've been out for a bit now, yeah [21:39:12] I can confirm that isn't on the table 😅 [21:39:28] it's miraheze, none of us can resist forever [21:40:05] While true, I think he's enjoying the much needed rest and is focusing on his professional career at this time [21:40:10] mind you I'm not expecting another rfs from him [21:40:24] Good for him:) [21:40:29] good to hear he's making good of his time though [21:41:09] For sure - don’t always agree with John but am happy that he’s happy [21:41:12] tell him I said hi I guess [21:41:32] I will do when I see him next! [21:41:48] we hadn't talked in god knows how long but still [21:42:26] aight got off my couch time for extension development [21:42:34] my condolences [21:42:37] I mean good luck [21:42:47] ..It'll be fine [21:43:21] so what did I miss [21:43:36] mulling about a long week [21:43:44] So we’ll make do [21:43:52] [1/2] I have my emotional support pig [21:43:52] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232084481368784978/IMG_3500.jpg?ex=66282b97&is=6626da17&hm=214ece54bfface8d5ceceb0ebf8cbe0c36b7afb124a7ea62cc37ecbc9ded1bfc& [21:44:13] not sure why the first message was sent after the image cause i sent the image first [21:44:15] Or...extension development on the couch [21:44:26] that it has [21:44:32] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232084651615584328/image.png?ex=66282bbf&is=6626da3f&hm=8a6af8633fe2e7d0d80e6bc07cec1b29b661d790d5c71d2c362c9d4e13b82c1e& [21:44:50] i mean this one [21:44:53] o [21:44:58] discord is funny sometimes [21:45:20] eh it gets sent quicker without an image atttached [21:45:32] aye [21:46:04] pig crown [21:46:16] I would love to code while watching Horimiya on my big TV but my only laptop is a locked down chromebook from school so I'll just make due with my desktop in the other room [21:46:35] Owch [21:46:59] Chrome books are such a good idea but poorly implemented [21:47:08] Just like anything google has ever produced [21:47:37] its blocked github [21:47:47] Budget laptop with linux mint has been my hobby [21:48:21] Wanted to jailbreak my chromebooks but it ultimately wasn't worth the bother [21:48:24] I actually used to code on it using github codespaces [21:49:07] Lol I have just a laptop, I don't think I've ever used a desktop PC [21:49:14] wha [21:50:14] Laptop is good enough if it's not chrome [21:50:21] its monday [21:50:33] For 10 more minutes indeed [21:50:49] heh, #elections :p [21:50:56] yep [21:51:03] I got 6 hours of monday yet [21:51:10] google locked it down so much, you can't even overwrite the os with linux [21:51:30] wasn't sure if counting from sunday [21:51:34] Yeah, day 2, Sunday being day 1 [21:51:39] ahh yeah fair [21:51:39] ok [21:51:44] yeah thats how I count [21:51:52] Sunday is still part of last week. [21:52:12] [1/2] this confused me so much so ill ignore it [21:52:12] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232086580307689533/MZCCCgk.png?ex=66282d8b&is=6626dc0b&hm=6b3ae403cd3aa4cfc1b4dfdcf4e7c5d5a625b55fef6c5fcb70f0f24e58edf8ac& [21:52:20] depends on where you are [21:52:39] Does it though [21:52:50] Yes [21:53:11] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232086829512130740/image0.jpg?ex=66282dc7&is=6626dc47&hm=38a79e539b2f6000f73099bdd7cd5c8db6d4fd0030588a2f96795069969b41f6& [21:53:12] The ISO 8601 calendar starts weeks at monday... [21:53:28] As I could tell this depends on bootloader/architecture: there is a chance on i3 but on arm forget it, and initially I picked up arm [21:53:29] (In pt-br, Sunday is domingo, so the D) [21:53:54] it was a cheap $200 chromebook, was worth a shot [21:54:14] I did turn off security, still said nope [21:54:24] Yeah, I wob't bother unless it's i3 and supported by gecko [21:54:36] This conversation is veering into #offtopic territory [21:54:42] I think gecko was it, a distro built for chromebook [21:55:04] Yep,probably worth moving it there if there's more to say [21:55:15] Said my bit personally [21:55:48] There were two concurrent ot talks [22:40:00] [1/2] If not done already, SRE should enable this on Cloudflare because it provides better compression than MediaWiki does by default [22:40:00] [2/2] https://developers.cloudflare.com/speed/optimization/content/auto-minify/ [22:40:08] It is done [22:42:15] Ah cool [22:42:31] [1/2] Also consider this if not already (idk if it has any possible downsides) [22:42:31] [2/2] https://developers.cloudflare.com/images/polish/ [22:59:51] yeah this screws with javascript aswell sometimes [23:00:03] in my experience recent changes loads weird [23:00:34] Hi [23:00:38] how’s everyone’s monday [23:04:33] tuesday now! [23:09:39] oh! [23:09:41] new day of the week [23:09:45] how’s it going? [23:11:29] not bad not bad, yourself? [23:11:59] exhausted with the day’s events (it’s 4:11pm here) but hoping to relax soon [23:12:46] mediocre [23:12:51] not good not bad [23:12:55] heh yeah [23:17:48] whether its day 1 or day 2, today went poorly in here [23:18:39] do we prefer weeks starting on Sunday or Monday [23:18:47] no idea [23:18:52] Monday ig [23:18:52] i usually start on monday [23:19:21] I always see calendars showing Sunday as the first day of the week but it never feels like it [23:19:34] there's reason why people hate mondays [23:19:38] Yeah same [23:22:24] i always treat monday as the start of the next week [23:26:51] monday as I will not be going to work on a sunday >.< [23:35:34] 503? [23:36:20] just me or? [23:36:20] Me too [23:36:20] i dont see the 503 but its not saving my changes [23:36:20] long load [23:36:20] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232112696011264143/image.png?ex=662845de&is=6626f45e&hm=45667f3c73ad35135059b2b96ab702203f1763702e317f4dc5a6a0cb0ff9a72c& [23:36:21] wowie [23:36:21] I got the cloudflare page [23:36:22] I am taking forever to load right now, just as I was begining to move articles around yeah too xD [23:36:25] Error 522! [23:36:28] @Site Reliability Engineers [23:36:32] and a cloudflare timeout now [23:36:40] we back [23:39:56] I have to open images in a new tab and wait for it to "check my browser" before images will load [23:40:36] yeah images seem odd [23:40:39] [1/2] Never thought I'd see this screen on Miraheze [23:40:40] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1232113874665476217/image.png?ex=662846f7&is=6626f577&hm=80f43e0dcc8cf5ac5ecc4122e6b4a87b6596dc20e4841c0cde1dfc718c5282d3& [23:40:42] none are embedding either [23:40:47] That is temporary apologies [23:41:53] Same [23:43:52] I've had this happen on so many websites [23:47:58] thanks. it was bizarre to see when handling a wiki request. lol [23:48:54] Lol yeah I understand it will go away in a few minutes. I activated that to reduce the effect of a DDoS that was bringing us down. [23:49:16] I had that screen for one second and I was like okay I also remember I hate it that a lot of websites actually have the settings so bad that I'm blocked for some reason [23:49:48] oh so it was a ddos [23:50:36] honest question, what's with the constant ddos lately? [23:51:05] Exactly who/why is not clear [23:51:16] But it's damn persistent [23:51:27] I'm in US where calendars start the week on Sunday, but most everyone considers Sunday as part of the weekend. Even though most won't admit this, they consider Monday as the first day of the week. [23:52:07] I recall Void saying it was resolved a few months ago... [23:52:42] There has been like 40 DDoSes in the past month [23:55:07] We have 50,000,000 requests in the past 24 hours, and 50,000,000 the day before, that is about what we used to get in a month. And only 482k unique visits also. [23:55:26] 47.6 million to be precise [23:56:20] is posible to recover a wiki? [23:56:53] you deleted reachaverse which I have been updating / recovering from reaching dormant from like 2 years [23:57:35] [[Steward requests/(Un)deletions]] [23:57:35] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Steward_requests/(Un)deletions [23:57:36] [23:57:38] This is a newer incident [23:57:59] I think it coincides with the changes in politicals about deleting faster which I voted against to avoid things like this [23:58:42] 2 years since you last edited? [23:58:57] no, 2 years editing intermetently [23:59:23] avoided that the page to be deleted