[00:00:09] and just the word 'educational' can be twisted in many directions anyway if push comes to shov [00:00:09] With explicit, clear text on what exactly is permissible and not [00:00:24] there is an essay somewhat to that effect in the wc resource list [00:00:32] <.labster> Yeah, I wrote it. [00:00:45] <.labster> The educational exemption is very very broad, but not infinite. [00:00:45] No I know the essay but I mean true codification [00:00:53] A specific, itemized list isn't really possible at the end of the day, because it's about common sense and the application of it. [00:01:09] If you doubt it, you should mention it. [00:01:50] My point is more that if that's a major policy that needs application in wiki creation processes, it should be very visible [00:01:56] <.labster> https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/User:Labster/Wiki_Creators_primer_on_nonprofit_status#Testing_for_compliance [00:02:06] ie. the Content Policy because it ensures wiki requestors and creators have knowledge of it from the jump [00:02:58] there's incredibly little that doesn't at least superficially fit one category tbh [00:03:07] ^ [00:03:08] <.labster> Yeah, exactly. [00:03:16] even reception wikis could be twisted to support those points, indeed the problem is execution entirely on their part [00:04:00] the most vapid community I've held aspirations of at least seeing users/staff become more competent in editing and management respectively, and beyond that there's usually something to get out of it [00:04:10] <.labster> Literary criticism is specifically mentioned in the law. It's just hard to tell if reception wikis are good enough to count. [00:04:18] I agree, I just think that it should be clearly stated in policy for the sake of that 1 percent that doesn't fit under the "educational" banner. [00:04:30] they'd be good enough if someone with enough time and competence was heading the train [00:04:33] that's just not the case [00:04:45] And so when we need to decline a wiki on the basis of that, as wiki creators, we have something official to reference. [00:04:49] from a WC perspective [00:05:01] <.labster> I don't want to discourage potentially valid wikis from applying because they don't think they're educational enough. [00:05:03] This isn't community policy, though. This is a question of org mandate. [00:05:10] I do feel that 1% generally consists of completely unfounded requests, which wouldn't pass muster anyway because they have no pretense to offer, and really weird edge cases we'd have to really comb through anyway [00:05:28] But for it to be clear in the content policy would require a lot of text to explain it. Just putting that it need to be "educational" in the content policy, is likely to cause more confusion than clarity. [00:05:39] For sure, this isn't something that has to be voted on at all, or something like that. Just a note somewhere official stating it. [00:06:08] in other words there just doesn't seem to be enough of a problem that merits diving into that 'educational purpose' question unless the specific niche where that is relevant comes up and I've not seen that be in the request process [00:06:26] That's my general take as well, yes. [00:07:29] <.labster> It's not even mentioned, but in theory we could also host religious content. We don't mention it in our Articles, though, so we're not supposed to, but it wouldn't directly violate the law otherwise. The religious content that we do have is also covered by educational exemption IMO. [00:09:08] /auth [00:09:16] /auth [00:09:30] <.labster> My opinion is that it is something that Wiki Creators should know about, but not in the main content policy. Perhaps a foundation-level wiki approval policy could address the educational requirement outside the content policy? @serverlessharej ? [00:09:31] Odd, is the bot not working? [00:09:38] You can use the #verify channel [00:09:46] ^ [00:10:09] That’d be my suggestion yeah, doesn’t need to be developed at all [00:10:15] Just a one sentence would do it [00:10:20] or heck, if it was in the bylaws [00:10:22] that would suffice [00:10:47] <.labster> We need to update #info to remove `/auth` and tell them to go to #verify instead. [00:11:10] Churches and other religious organizations benefit from 501(c)(3); I haven't talked to a lawyer about this but I imagine we're safe hosting religious content [00:11:44] planning a few updates re that, will be done sooner rather than later [00:12:24] I think the essay you wrote is a good start. It probably would be a good idea to have a foundation-level wiki policy as well, representing the minimum of what we will/won't allow. [00:13:24] While at it #info also have a "unknown" channel link in it too. Think it is the old interwiki-reqeust or whatever it was called [00:14:53] yeah, will overhaul all of it [00:29:03] I don't know if this is true but I've heard that the IRS rarely does anything unless you're using your nonprofit for fraud [00:29:34] You can get a nonprofit even if you technically don't meet the criteria I'm pretty sure [00:29:46] Because the IRS doesn't really have the time to investigate that [00:35:57] that’s not the point [00:36:19] either way, Miraheze isn’t comfortable with even 0.00001% of liability [00:36:27] from a common sense standpoint [00:37:26] There's always that amount of liability [00:37:38] A lot of things are illegal or forbidden that you don't know about [00:38:33] but we attempt to minimize it [00:38:59] and allowing that impermissible content when we know it’s impermissible is not something MH will do [00:39:50] Do we care about the laws or jurisdictions outside the US? [00:40:27] in certain circumstances [00:40:32] gdpr a particular example [00:40:41] Well OK the EU [00:40:57] What I miss [00:41:15] the eu primarily, individual laws in the weeds of specific eu countries, probably less likely to fuss but that is a ts domain in any case [00:41:36] if it's a claim from the middle east, china or something, probably not unless it strongly corresponds with our own policy anyway [00:42:30] [1/2] But what about countries where just criticizing the government is illegal? Miraheze was blocked in China at some point actually but they lifted it. [00:42:31] [2/2] My point is there is always some legal risk. And it's not just the middle east and China. Take a look at India. [00:43:01] Or Israel because I heard someone got in trouble for criticizing the military, I heard the same about Pakistan too [00:43:12] You can't insult the government and/or military in many places [00:43:17] India is the largest [00:43:33] india is another one I doubt we'd fuss very much about [00:43:40] Alr [00:44:39] broadly speaking the order of precedence is us, eu/international (ie, with copyright), and reasonable jurisdictional requests, at all times with a compulsion for users to follow their local laws as we are by no means a shield against their own liability if they are in an affected jurisdiction [00:45:13] If users have to follow their own laws, if someone from Russia or China criticized the government, would they be banned? [00:46:01] we won't go after them on behalf nor do I believe we have any obligation to technically cooperate, however if russia wants to go after a russian critic then we hope for the given russian to stay safe as we have no way of protecting them if the government does connect the dots [00:46:15] and same for whatever country pretty much [00:46:49] I believe there could be a funny circumstance like the UK pulling another twitter and compelling miraheze in uk court but I'm not sure how or if that would work and that is a matter only Harej could opine on I think [00:47:16] Yeah but we shouldn't ban them for violating their local laws if their local laws are absurd like in Russia or comply with subpoenas from a court with no jurisdiction like Russia and China [00:47:33] if it's the sort of country that legally collaborates closely with the united states I'd keep a more careful eye out, say in a circumstance where the US itself compels cooperation for removal of content or disclosure of information [00:47:50] and in any of these cases I don't forsee an instance where a government goes "I don't like this guy ban him" [00:47:59] Well [00:48:00] India [00:48:03] not a case that we'd accept anyway [00:48:23] That's true [00:48:23] well again, I personally wouldn't take that query very seriously, but I'd forward to TS and it's up to them [00:48:54] assuming it's a properly formatted legal request of some sort since that goes beyond my jurisdiction anyway [00:49:16] If a US court were to compel Miraheze to disclose information then MH should probably get legal counsel to ensure it's a valid request [00:50:10] that shits expensive [00:50:12] that would be in @serverlessharej's capable hands at that point anyway, for sure it would be scrutinized heavily upfront for validity [00:50:51] I doubt that would stop with an informal email anyway, pretty sure actual letters would be sent etc [00:53:10] I think the Russian government has gone after the Wikimedia Foundation in court, but it's Russian court, and the Wikimedia Foundation is not in Russia, so I am not sure it amounts to much. [00:58:32] If you have no ties to Russia and live in the US then there is absolutely no reason to respond to Russian court summons, that goes for both people and organizations [00:59:02] It's just a waste of your time and money [01:00:25] I see no reason to give them or for that matter chinese demands the time of day [01:00:32] probably same for india but I haven't seen that flaunted as much [01:01:54] Only thing I’d offer from a neutral perspective is that we seem to be embracing a very euro-centric perspective on how MH should be run [01:02:01] Which is fine if that’s the intent [01:02:22] But honestly I’d recommend MH sticks to adhering to just one nation’s laws (the US, given incorporation here) [01:02:37] Trying to deal with other country laws gets challenging imo [01:04:32] that doesn't make sense, did it? [01:06:02] @raidarr sorry for the ghost ping [01:06:11] deleted a bunch of messages that once typed out, were very jumbled [01:06:21] so just decided to delete as they didn't make a ton of sense lol [01:11:12] +MiraheahezeRelay>, if I were to title a page "(Character Name)'s Masturbation Stream" about a fictional character's masturbation stream and involved graphic accounts of the stream, would it be violating the policy. [01:11:28] *? [01:12:14] Please find another way to spend your time. [01:13:14] MacFan4000 or CosmicAlpha: kindly a ban [01:13:20] or a mute [01:13:21] or something [01:13:39] that's wildly inappropriate by any measure [01:13:57] b line preferably [01:14:13] is it b or k? [01:14:16] b [01:14:20] well kb [01:14:38] i thought k was be on steroids [01:15:54] Banned [01:15:55] cc @notaracham re the above user's inappropriate comments, he said he had a wiki too called Realitix [01:16:03] might be worth a cursory check to ensure content is appropriate [01:16:44] do you know the exact sub [01:16:49] nope [01:31:21] ... The user was asked what content their wiki contained, they did answer [02:19:19] Yeeeeah, that wasn't what the deleted response was. [02:20:05] Well [02:20:08] It kind of was [02:20:10] But not really [02:20:13] too much detail [02:20:23] I saw it in the message logger [02:20:26] Let's try and employ common sense here - really? [02:21:32] That content would clearly not be permitted and even asking the question is well out of bounds. [02:21:57] I think that would be permitted on a wiki marked NSFW if the characters are 18+ per content policy [02:26:07] I removed my message [02:26:21] Appreciated, thanks 🙂 [02:45:43] how can i make top down stay at the top when scrolling down a page [02:45:50] the theme im using is cosmos if that helps [02:52:46] Could you send a link to your wiki so I can check it out once I'm on computer? [02:59:56] try to play w/ `position: sticky` [03:03:35] Yeah this is what I'm thinking [03:03:48] Roblox D-DAY Wiki [03:03:51] I don’t have the link [03:04:11] I'll find it later [03:06:34] [1/3] hi all, sorry for another noobish question. why does the "templates" category keep getting added to non-template pages?? i've tried to remove it (in visual editor + by editing source), but it keeps reappearing (usually after just a few minutes). the pages affected obviously -use- templates, but i don't want them to be put in that category, as they're not the templates themselves [03:06:34] [2/3] ! [03:06:34] [3/3] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1242312552629796915/Screenshot_2024-05-20_at_11.03.06_PM.png?ex=664d6139&is=664c0fb9&hm=53aca79e3ef2f01c15292b4553fd45070ba5c349a7d7a2a804379607d9bbc879& [03:07:00] A template you're using on the page has the category [03:07:11] Can you link the page? [03:07:38] sure! here's the one i was editing (excuse the barebones content): https://wikiofarcadia.miraheze.org/wiki/Bellroc [03:08:37] does this mean i shouldn't use category: templates for categorizing my templates? (this seemed logical, but i admit this is my first time trying to do something like this...) [03:09:34] Put the categorys inside [[Category:Templates]]/noinclude [03:09:34] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Category:Templates [03:09:35]

[03:09:52] that should stop it from, well, being included [03:13:16] yeah, templates themselves need some sort of order/categorization so noinclude is used to avoid affecting normal pages when template is in use [03:13:27] https://wikiofarcadia.miraheze.org/wiki/Template:Reflist?action=edit [03:16:52] oh thank god, that fixed it!! i added this to the templates and it worked perfectly. this has been bugging me for days, thank you so much!! [03:17:25] :Partyheze: glad i could help [03:17:34] now if you'll excuse me [03:17:36] im very tire [03:17:43] honk shoe [03:18:25] Gn [03:18:29] let us know if you got any other questions [03:18:46] 🪿 👟 [03:28:41] [1/2] how would you change this template so that it sorts by the location section of the infoboxes instead? Currently it is sorted by the tier. [03:28:41] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1242318119737757829/image.png?ex=664d6668&is=664c14e8&hm=53d713d0efafe3e17b1efcc4fb2b950386b52eb18fb7eda4641979209d8394a2& [12:46:46] is it me or miraheze is a bit slow today? [12:48:04] nevermind, it was a short moment [12:58:22] you just want swap places for these cells? [14:27:45] <.xy2> hello, how can we take over a wiki? our discord community recently started contributing to https://aitg.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page initiated by a member, but they left and deleted his discord account a few days ago, so we're stuck without an admin [14:33:58] Iirc you need to discuss on the [[SN]] [14:33:58] https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/SN [14:33:59]

[14:35:01] We should probably have an extension that allows people to request to adopt a wiki and then stewards can action it from meta [14:45:27] or just an module, as I believe so [14:45:53] huh? [14:49:32] That is my hope for the end game, to basically replace most of SN with special pages [14:49:34] besides local election we still don't have a lot in the way of a proper adopt procedure tbh [14:49:37] like for rename requests [14:49:49] if everyone thinks its a good idea, I can work on it [14:50:28] if you can it would also be nice if the dormancy exemption interactive table (WikiDiscover style) could be done as I believe the config is ready in ManageWiki but just doesn't have the UI to display it [14:50:30] it's unfortunate because people can put in very little effort and basically become bureaucrat for life but it takes more hoops to be someone who goes 'hey I want to actually do this justice' when that requestor bugs off and never comes back [14:50:57] automating dp exemptions would be higher prio imo, and tbh there's other things that should come first overall before automating adoption which remains a discretionary process [14:51:06] and a not sufficiently consistent one imo at that [14:51:37] is it just the UI that needs to be done? [14:51:37] Yeah, we can probably even get a Special:RequestDPExemption though for starters we need to migrate the current manual table to an interactive one based like WD based on the setting in managewiki [14:53:08] it was actually already done by Agent (https://github.com/miraheze/ManageWiki/pull/399) but just never finished [14:53:23] or at least never 'perfected' [14:53:53] and also my understanding is that while the actual inactive_exempt_reason would be set in ManageWiki, @cosmicalpha prefers that the table is handled in WikiDiscover [14:54:55] interesting, there seems to be conflicting opinions on how to implement it [14:56:35] yeah, you might want to have a chat with @cosmicalpha before working on the final option if you choose to. Though I don't imagine it'll be too much work since the main product is already there [14:57:37] ok maybe sometimes some articles and special pages are slow to load but im uncertain at this point because it worked fine earlier and slowed down earlier and worked fine earlier [14:59:15] maybe its on me casue mirahezestats say its all good [15:07:00] I made this issue, what now? https://issue-tracker.miraheze.org/T12147 [15:14:47] [1/2] it looks like custom protection levels dont apply to namespaces, is this intentional? [15:14:48] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1242495818192257176/image.png?ex=664e0be7&is=664cba67&hm=e4be58ebe7ff2ee6e443dc6a97c94bb8d2d831b2a0f80a51ec72fac5e4bef1d6& [15:14:54] (we have edittrusteduserprotected on our wiki) [15:20:09] it's a waiting game pretty much [15:20:58] [1/2] That's enough! If one can't wait the fucking time until I get home from work, you're just out of luck! It's so fucking annoying that one can't even wait for others to find time in their private lives! If people in Miraheze don't even respect the private lives of others, I have no place here! Maybe I'll come back at some point, maybe things will have improved... [15:20:58] [2/2] As wiki creator I would have been active and had something to do, which is not the case as a normal user! But I guess one just doesn't want any help! [15:22:09] with that response it becomes very clear we have dodged a bullet [15:24:10] however @rodejong I'd have given him a bit more than what seems like sub 24 hours to respond, even if he seemed to be losing out on other grounds anyway [15:35:09] [1/2] idea just popped in in my head, I wonder if anyone would be interested in a 'weekly newsletter' of sorts which exists to highlight new/ongoing things for a given week's span open to suitable updates by autopatrolled+ users. This would include RfPs, RfCs, mentioning new articles/major updates, mentions of upcoming events and so forth. This would be supervised by meta admins and probab [15:35:10] [2/2] ly ratified either through RfF (it seems small enough to try out that going much further might not be needed) or RfC, but I'm leaning something more informal to set a trial period and see how it goes. [15:45:17] maybe a blog? [15:45:27] of sorts [15:45:36] Maybe something like Wikimedia's Diff [15:45:42] something to more accessibly fit the role of the old blog.miraheze.org would be nice [15:46:05] I noticed that there are an extension for that in MW [15:46:16] [[mw:Extension:Newspaper]] [15:46:16] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Newspaper [15:46:17]

[15:46:33] I'd want something like that through a proper rfc as that does represent a deeper change [15:46:43]