[00:00:33] WG roblox group session when [00:01:22] Weird gloop = WG ? [00:01:26] yes [00:01:39] weird gloop roblox group session? [00:04:00] i do think there's room for someone to do a really good job uniting all the roblox wikis under some shared structure, infrastructure, integrations, tech, etc [00:04:23] Oh, cook [00:04:25] hello [00:04:28] heyo [00:04:53] it will probably not be us just because the limiting factor for us is just moderating a very large number of young people, and the difficulties and risks that come with that [00:05:09] but i would love to support the concept/help strategize from the sidelines an [00:05:31] I mean, there is IRWA [00:06:13] yeah, i just think if I was them I would be aiming for a lot more structure than they have. or at least enough so that there's a natural, canonical place for roblox game wikis to escape to from fandom [00:06:32] because roblox is about 15% of fandom's total traffic rn [00:06:54] Maybe that is something worth discussing about in the IRWA server [00:07:05] i've talked about it before there a little bit [00:07:37] You know, I do not think IRWA has as much support lately [00:07:48] because a coordinator left and many are busy lately [00:07:48] support in what sense? [00:07:52] ah [00:08:04] which coordinator left? [00:08:09] Teajai [00:08:10] o7 [00:08:17] o7 [00:08:23] What a guy [00:08:39] I used to not like him a bit, actually [00:09:02] i think if the IRWA was just a wiki group and less of a membership application type deal, it would have more success [00:09:10] like the WG server, but for roblox wikis [00:09:39] I mean, they added a forum channel for prospective wikis needing support [00:09:44] i'm not a huge fan of "wiki alliances" that are super duper formal, but when it's something like roblox where there's actual tangible value in working together [00:10:05] i'm really surprised that someone more profit-oriented hasn't realized what a big opportunity there is there [00:10:13] Well, IRWA formality is a little fluid [00:10:29] enews is pretty formal about applications [00:10:34] like if i was trying to maximie the amount of money i made in the next 2 years, i would make a roblox wiki hosting service and then make it good enough that then roblox just buys it [00:10:46] i have no interest in actually doing that [00:10:55] but it's such an obvious gap in the market [00:11:03] a roblox wiki hosting service? [00:11:03] BloxHeze [00:11:12] you dont think fandom fills that gap? [00:11:20] no, because everyone wants to get the fuck off fandom [00:11:22] we dont want fandom filling any gap [00:11:31] and roblox corp will never work with them [00:11:58] imo roblox players are fandoms ideal audience, little work needed to setup, dont care about performance or adblockers [00:12:05] And honestly with the way roblox is going lately they might look at fandom, with all the money they make by plastering ads everywhere [00:12:11] and get a few bad ideas [00:13:46] roblox players (children) are the most reluctant to move off fandom, in my experience [00:13:59] huh, really? [00:15:09] would you not say so? [00:15:28] well, every time i reach out to a fandom wiki to migrate they are like [00:15:32] PLEASE SAVE US AHHHHH [00:15:53] and i feel like a real estate agent saying so i know about this nifty little thing called miraheze [00:16:50] i think if anyone came in confidently and told them how to do it, they would [00:16:57] haha its been a while since i interacted with a miraheze and/or fandom wiki so perhaps my view is dated [00:17:09] the other angle is that for a lot of these popular roblox games (deepwoken, bloxfruits,etc) the developers don't like fandom at all [00:17:17] and would plausibly be willing to do a takedown [00:17:32] it has happened before [00:18:13] for roblox specifically? [00:18:18] yes [00:18:35] but it requires a good relationship with the developers, usually [00:18:40] any legal process is still a hassle [00:18:44] would be curious for more specifics about how that went + was handled by fandom [00:18:56] like which wikis, what the response was, how quickly it was turned off [00:18:58] more data points are always good [00:19:16] I don't quite remember which wiki it was, but I'll see what I can find [00:19:24] And there might be one happening soon [00:19:45] I've been helping doors wiki migrate and they're close with the developers [00:20:37] I suppose that's one way to deal with prefork fandom counterparts. [00:21:24] it's the best way! [00:21:31] because the more times it succeeds, the easier it is for other devs to do it [00:21:43] but yeah please find me whatever info you can on the topic [00:22:04] K [00:25:48] ugh, I could swear I heard about a Roblox fandom wiki takedown [00:25:51] Am I going insane [00:26:27] Yo [00:27:29] I can get you in contact, there’s some staff in the IRWA discord (I’m a coordinator there). Would you like me to add you and ping them or ping them asking to check this server/DM you [00:28:27] ping me wherever is the most relevant, i think I'm in the IRWA server already [00:28:32] wait, I didn't know you were a coordinator. [00:28:45] Sure [00:31:43] I'm officially insane [00:32:26] Unrelated, but I am genuinely impressed with how few problems the larger Roblox wikis generate for global enforcement. [00:32:50] It's not zero, but for their scale they are joyfully self-governing to a pretty good degree [00:33:07] While I'd say that yes Roblox can attract younger users but not like, IBW young, you know what I mean? [00:33:16] They are many adults running Roblox games also [00:33:17] Oh absolutely [00:33:32] i imagine fischipedias kind of high wall to edit negates a large amount [00:34:21] Also true, sensible moderation practices and edit standards go a long way to setting the right tone [00:34:53] welcome!! [00:35:12] welcome? [00:36:23] Yeah, I have an old coord seat from being one of the friends in the server before it was public, I just happened to already be in the nicerish lounge when someone put a sign on the door saying “awesome super secret coordinator council” and the rest is history [00:36:30] to the insane club [00:36:40] @notaracham: yes, agree. I've always Roblox and Steam games to be quite reasonable and they also generally do an excellent job describing their wikis [00:37:18] Fictional worldbuilding wikis and song contest wikis are also up in the "top 5" fewest problems for global enforcement, too, I'd say [00:37:24] maybe I enjoy it just a little bit that does make me insane [00:37:37] ba dum tsssss [00:38:27] I don’t know nearly enough of Hazbin/Helluva to throw proverbial tomatos or applaud thougj [00:38:36] Hey Mudscape [00:38:47] One of my earliest experiences with Miraheze was across a world building wiki where the central gimmick is every gay person was plotting to destroy the earth [00:38:57] I listened to the song like 2 years ago and it's stuck in my head [00:39:13] Skye is also an IRWA coordinator but that’s much newer, I petitioned to give bring her on, initially I was willing to give up my own seat to give it to her but the others told me to sit down and just add a new chair [00:39:59] Yeah, I noticed that [00:40:12] My role as a coordinator is very hands off and is a combination of platform contact and uninvolved by design neutral third party to mediate and act as a closer when needed [00:40:13] I stopped interacting with IRWA a lot, actually [00:40:36] that's just the real world [00:40:53] I gotta ask my brother about that [00:41:25] I mean I wasn’t gonna make the joke but [00:41:33] @dmehus: until they become nazi fanfic, and then we have to have a conversation. Otherwise yes, most of the worldbuilding (esp fantasy settings) are extremely zero-problems [00:43:18] Bleh, I hope it was like a camp thing and not a homophobia the long way around thing. 🙁 [00:43:25] Glad you stuck around regardless. [00:44:04] it's actually very interesting that this is your experience since that's definitely the main thing i'd be worried about with trying to do a generalized roblox wiki operation [00:44:14] Only positive experience I had with fandom support was emailing about the fandom version of the wiki and the guy was like “what the hell!? Yeah that’s gotta go.” [00:44:17] Oh, absolutely. INcredibly counterintuitive [00:44:19] what do you attribute that to, are you selective about not getting into the super drama-heavy roblox stuff? [00:44:54] Nice. It's hard to get them to remove much, but glad they took quick action on that'n [00:50:38] [1/6] I wouldn't say entirely selective, we do turn away obvious problems, but it tends to be one of a few things, some of which others have mentioned: [00:50:38] [2/6] * Focused on a very niche game w/in roblox and just doesn't attract drama-flies [00:50:39] [3/6] * Folks managing the wiki have prior experience/work with other projects to ensure a similar code of conduct across-wiki, so self-manage [00:50:39] [4/6] * Developers/Trusted parties are directly involved in wiki mgmt and are (usually) older/more mature than their audience [00:50:39] [5/6] * This shows up as stricter moderation and/or edit standards [00:50:40] [6/6] * Those interested in the content are less likely to be engaged editorially - just wanting to find out the thing and go back to playing the game. [00:51:09] Not every one of these is true for every roblox game, and we have had to turn down some extremely ill-advised ones, e.g. school shooter simulators. [00:51:39] [1/2] > Developers/Trusted parties are directly involved in wiki mgmt and are (usually) older/more mature than their audience [00:51:40] [2/2] how often is this the case? [00:52:11] I mean [00:52:15] Let me think [00:52:18] I couldn't speak to that with full accuracy, but I've seen it anecdotally a few times now [00:52:52] Our other volunteers are def more equipped to answer that one, but the bigger roblox wikis on our service have some amount of dev involvement directly or indirectly. [00:53:28] iirc one roblox dev was the person who nominated skye for the board [00:53:42] [1/2] like honestly, if i could lock in "you will not be on the hook to moderate 100,000 12 year olds in an environment that you don't really understand" [00:53:43] [2/2] then it would be a pretty easy yes on getting into roblox stuff [00:53:59] but our experience even with something like minecraft has been mixed [00:54:13] Minecraft huh [00:54:26] not that the admins there aren't good at handling it, but a lot of it does end up having to trickle up to us in terms of global vandalism, underage people, unusual drama etc [00:54:26] Yeah... that's a different kettle of beans [00:54:34] can of worms [00:54:45] and i guess i don't understand what makes those different, because my intuition is that roblox skews even younger [00:54:54] it really depends [00:55:04] Hugely popular game, wide range of player userbase, complexity and long playtime that necessitates a deep wiki experience [00:55:26] it might just be because it's miraheze where the admins can just freely decide what extensions are installed etc. like if Minecraft had Extension:Moderation you would probably not have any issues [00:55:34] TBH a lot of the biggest games on Roblox lately are slop games e.g IBW so those aren't good examples [00:56:03] But, like, there are just as many really high-quality games for older audiences [00:56:04] More opportunities for people to get inducted into editing + more opportunities for people to be shitty for globally recognized 'internet points' [00:56:12] ehhh i'm not convinced Ext:Moderation (and by extension, the ability to freely install stuff) is the difference here [00:56:35] WG wikis can't add their own extensions? [00:56:59] well they can add their own extensions but someone's gotta do a bit more than pressing a button I'd assume [00:57:01] i mean, not just arbitrary extensions. we're definitely more selective than miraheze about that sort of thing [00:57:14] the general vibe is, if you really need to do something and your best option is an extension, we'll install it [00:57:30] do you guys not support Ext:Moderation? [00:57:32] but as much as possible we try to move relevant stuff into modules, gadgets, etc so the people on the wiki can change them as needed [00:58:08] hmm what do you mean then by the experience being mixed [00:58:46] could it just be that you see more of the Minecraft wiki's problems because you're more involved in that than any Steward is with Fisch for example [00:59:18] we don't support Ext:Moderation, most of the automated countervandalism is handled by AbuseFilter. I'm not really familiar with the extension too much and how it differs from FlaggedRevs or ApprovedRevs [00:59:46] i think this is definitely part of it, but if there are problems of that sort of nature that aren't handled locally, eventually they do become my problems [01:00:02] so like yeah it's a difference, but it's not the type of difference that makes me breathe a sigh of relief. i'm on the hook for it eventually [01:00:40] roblox definitely isnt as kid infested as it once was, roblox reported in february after adding ID verification that about 60% of players are over 13, with about 30% being over 18 [01:01:05] only about half of Roblox players are ID verified, though [01:01:34] older players would be more likely to verify so take the data with a grain of salt [01:02:08] [1/2] minecraft also specifically has a massive problem with people coming on the wiki and saying [01:02:08] [2/2] > Hi my name is Billy Smith, I am 11 years old and I live in [01:02:31] which is just a regulatory nightmare, but also one that i have somehow ONLY ever experienced with minecraft [01:02:41] idk if that's a frequent source of problems for you [01:03:59] Outside of roblox wikis, absolutely. [01:03:59] Well [01:04:08] cough cough IBW cough cough [01:04:38] It has improved, lately, after I asked them to put up a site notice [01:04:40] but still [01:04:44] Also just had a refinement of the original idea - Roblox is inherently a partial 'security through obscurity' model actually working. [01:05:43] [1/3] Minecraft -> Incredibly known, I'd venture a guess that the people who know what minecraft is may well measure in the billions [01:05:43] [2/3] Roblox -> moderately well known, a pretty good number have a rough idea [01:05:43] [3/3] Fisch on the other hand? [01:06:11] Quite popular sure, but no individual roblox game is anywhere near the scale of awareness [01:06:48] uh huh [01:07:37] With a lower level of awareness comes a lower management overhead, to extend the thought. [01:07:41] i actually don't agree with that [01:07:50] like, fischipedia is more popular than minecraft wiki [01:08:03] i'm not saying it's the same level of public awareness of course [01:08:29] but i would expect that management overhead scales closer to "amount of traffic" or "amount of editors" than it does with "general world's awareness of the thing" [01:08:49] Fischipedia is more popular than Minecraft wiki? [01:08:53] That's surprising. [01:08:58] It drives more traffic, yes. [01:09:08] But I suspect the number of editors/edits may be lower. [01:09:32] I take your point though, the normal rule would be 'more people, more problems' [01:10:26] 167 active users for fisch, 2432 for mcw [01:10:36] Neat [01:10:45] So the theory does stand up to metric comparison [01:11:00] I guess it's because with Minecraft, there's lots of editors but only so much you can edit and it doesn't help that Minecraft takes a decently long time in between updates [01:11:10] eh [01:11:12] depends [01:11:13] wheres fisch has lots of traffic but not that many editors in comparison with weekly updates [01:11:23] with the new game drops, less [01:13:05] huh yeah the editor ratio is not how i expected [01:13:19] i looked on RC for fisch and saw a ton of edits but i guess it's not that many distinct people [01:13:41] fisch has very constant edits and is a very much wiki dependent game no? [01:13:57] updates not edits [01:14:07] well moderation also factors into it I think [01:14:19] actually no wait that wouldn't affect throughput [01:14:19] fisch also doesn't allow anon editing [01:14:59] but it did take like 1 month for an edit I did to get accepted [01:15:03] ext:moderation, account required, phone number verification and roblox account connection required for the discord [01:15:43] dang [01:16:51] [1/2] fischwiki traffic patterns idk if this is relevant [01:16:51] [2/2] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/407537962553966603/1540892544295116860/image.png?ex=6a8b9b82&is=6a8a4a02&hm=fcbfdbe52e46552b5b9ec32364e23ac852011f26e3384dbbf270a246bfec4ad9& [01:17:26] graph with no numbers no nothin [01:18:34] is that matomo? i wonder how it computes "visits" [01:19:02] that's always been my least favorite metric, it's like halfway between "number of people" (useful but not always countable) and number of pageviews (definitively countable and useful for tech stuff at least) [01:19:54] yeah matomo. I think it must have something to do with referrers because whenever a wiki is getting hammered by scrapers, the visits and the pageviews are nearly the same number [01:20:36] https://communities.miraheze.org/wiki/List_of_wikis_by_Matomo_statistics [01:23:23] The latter two basically are 'up to which version of a page is shown to end users and is considered cleared and approved for normal readers' i think. Moderation is 'this untrusted edit is actually not even full committed to the wiki, it's sent to a queue and if it's denied it's shadow realmed' i think [01:24:35] what's the functional difference there besides the revision history being kinda gross? [01:25:15] I've seen that kind of spam elsewhere as well. Probably not a Minecraft-specific problem. Just happened to hit MCW I assume. [01:25:23] it's not spam fyi [01:25:26] like it's actually 11 year olds [01:25:49] if it was spam we could just delete it and block it, but with real people it has all sorts of unfortunate COPPA consequences [01:26:49] for the bc wiki back on Fandom we had a lot of issues with underage users and I don't think we've had a single one on Miraheze [01:27:07] probably just because of no discussions though [01:29:31] [1/7] That's odd. The type of user pages I've seen are like these: [01:29:31] [2/7] ``` [01:29:32] [3/7] I am 34 years old and my name is . I life in ( *). [01:29:32] [4/7] ``` [01:29:32] [5/7] ``` [01:29:33] [6/7] I'm and I live with my husband and our 3 children in , in the part. My hobbies are... [01:29:33] [7/7] ``` [01:29:40] those definitely exist too [01:29:54] but these ones are specifically very young people talking about being very young, and they are sometimes also editing the wiki [01:29:57] would love to know the purpose of these! [01:30:10] it's usually to get past early filters that don't allow you to post links until you have an edit [01:31:20] do any of the miraheze roblox wikis allow anon editing? does miraheze at all? [01:32:41] Miraheze by default allows anon editing yeah [01:32:47] It's a stock mediawiki install by default [01:32:49] mostly [01:33:22] We've had an eye on temp accounts but those have a long ways to go before implementing [01:33:48] default user rights are at https://meta.miraheze.org/wiki/Special:ManageWikiDefaults/* [01:37:06] this is just the yoshikage kira copypasta [01:39:41] yeah there's also the t&s issue of should local admins have access to the ips of temp accounts [02:04:25]