[09:30:39] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <massi> Hi guys, nice to meet you all.
[09:30:39] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <massi> I need a team for develop a project on Astar infrastructure. We are already in contact, they are already watch my project, but I need a team. Who will be interested can contact my in private message. Thanks you all guys
[09:31:20] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> What is Astar, and how is it related to Wikimedia/MediaWiki? (re @massi: Hi guys, nice to meet you all.
[09:31:21] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> I need a team for develop a project on Astar infrastructure. We are already in contact, they are already watch my project, but I need a team. Who will be interested can contact my in private message. Thanks you all guys)
[09:33:49] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <massi> Astar is a winning chain guard from the auctions held on Polkadot, sorry I didn't specify that I'm talking about cryptocurrencies,
[09:34:00] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <jhsoby> Yeah, not interested, sorry.
[09:34:01] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <massi> Astar is a winning parachain guard from the auctions held on Polkadot, sorry I didn't specify that I'm talking about cryptocurrencies,
[11:26:08] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> FYI, some folks may find this security report interesting - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/2021-12_security_release/FAQ
[11:46:54] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <igorabsorto> Thank you for sharing! Very important (re @fuzheado: FYI, some folks may find this security report interesting - https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/2021-12_security_release/FAQ)
[13:28:10] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> A message in Reddit about needing of volunteers to develop MediaWiki(?) or WMF(?) 
[13:28:10] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/rhmqq1/wikipedia_doesnt_need_your_money_it_needs/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
[13:30:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> A message in Reddit about needing of volunteers to develop MediaWiki(?) or WMF(?) 
[13:30:36] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/rhmqq1/wikipedia_doesnt_need_your_money_it_needs/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
[13:30:37] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> (Sorry if this space is wrong about publishing this kind of contents: I've participated in the past in Hackathon and the issues about volunteering is always present)
[13:31:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <lucaswerkmeister> who is this person and who made them an expert on what Wikimedia does and doesn’t need?
[13:32:51] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <dennistobar> I don't know him/her, I just received the post in the daily mailing from reddit 😅
[13:37:45] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <HikeAndMap> Maybe it needs both. Devs and $€¥
[13:38:08] <majavah>	 the author is apparently the same person who was recently trying to get core added [[:mw:New developers]] (mentioned as "obstructing" possibility to contribute, but forgets to mention it was them trying to get it added)
[13:43:19] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> [[:mw:New developers]]
[13:44:12] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> > MediaWiki Core is NOT a software to recommend to any NEW developer to start with. It's a huge convoluted codebase. See phab:T176668
[13:44:13] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hmm
[13:44:50] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> But it is very weird that *mediawiki*.org does not feature MediaWiki
[13:45:59] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Also the only PHP thing listed seems to be ORES's extension
[13:46:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Which makes little sense. It is not like Java developers would get ready to work on MW by working on Kiwix
[13:46:48] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> And so forth
[13:49:18] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Some ways to get developers involved should be considered. Something like outputting stuff in console.log with links to how to contribute or having it in html comment of the pages, perhaps. Some websites do such things and it looks quite neat to me
[13:49:53] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> (To be clear I am just speculating myself, haven't read the reddit post completely yet)
[16:08:54] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> I concur on this - we should not be pointing newcomers to help hack Mediawiki.
[16:08:55] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Instead, we might want to have a quick table of "What you know... and what you can do"
[16:08:57] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Java: Look at Pattypan and see if you can help fix it?
[16:08:58] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Python: Look at pywikibot, requested scripts/tools and Toolforge.org
[16:09:00] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Javascript: Look at gadgets and user interface enhancements (re @Thecladis: > MediaWiki Core is NOT a software to recommend to any NEW developer to start with. It's a huge convoluted codebase. See phab:T176668
[16:09:01] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Hmm)
[16:09:18] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> I can't speak to PHP, as I stopped hacking it back in 1995 :)
[16:09:49] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> Python: refactor Thumbor for Python 3 /s
[16:09:49] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Well, from the perspective of an IRL PHP dev and generally I am confused
[16:10:13] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Ha, at least take a stab at it! (re @mahir256: Python: refactor Thumbor for Python 3 /s)
[16:10:23] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Well there is UTRS for example, in PHP, but I am afraid such narrow scope tools might bot interest everyone enough (re @Thecladis: Well, from the perspective of an IRL PHP dev and generally I am confused)
[16:10:34] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Yeah, other than hacking the Mediawiki code base, I'm not sure what I can recommend to a PHP person (re @Thecladis: Well, from the perspective of an IRL PHP dev and generally I am confused)
[16:10:38] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Well there is UTRS for example, in PHP, but I am afraid such narrow scope tools might not interest everyone enough (re @Thecladis: Well, from the perspective of an IRL PHP dev and generally I am confused)
[16:11:49] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Has anyone even laid out the requirements for moving Thumbor to Python 3? (re @mahir256: Python: refactor Thumbor for Python 3 /s)
[16:11:57] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> One aspect is that perhaps it is best to point not to necessarily to MW core, but let people chose from all the extensions, but still it comes down to learning how core works I think
[16:12:16] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Even if the scariest bits like Parser can be avoided then
[16:12:33] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> One aspect is that perhaps it is best to point not necessarily to MW core, but let people chose from all the extensions, but still it comes down to learning how core works I think
[16:12:37] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> also "any other programming language: port Pywikibot to it"
[16:12:42] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> One aspect is that perhaps it is best to point not necessarily to MW core, but let people choose from all the extensions, but still it comes down to learning how core works I think
[16:12:52] <AntiComposite>	 (re  <mahir256> Python: refactor Thumbor for Python 3 /s) Giiles did most of that work before he left
[16:13:22] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I am not sure it is sustainable. API wrappers that exist for most languages are usually more than enough (re @mahir256: also "any other programming language: port Pywikibot to it")
[16:13:26] <AntiComposite>	 that's what's most frustrating to me about this -- it just needs someone with the appropriate access and time to get it across the line
[16:15:32] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> @AntiComposite - I suppose my question is how much (or little) of Thumbor's features are we using? And what was the need for our forking of it as a Python 2 code?
[16:16:34] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Agree, there are already libraries and wrappers for the MWAPI for other languages. It's not clear the pywikibot approach is one to be copied at that scale. It's kind of a beast. (re @Thecladis: I am not sure it is sustainable. API wrappers that exist for most languages are usually more than enough)
[16:16:36] <AntiComposite>	 it's not really a fork, just a bunch of extensions
[16:16:59] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> @AntiComposite - Was it to support file formats that Thumbor didn't support?
[16:17:02] <AntiComposite>	 (think Wikia MediaWiki, especially before their recent upgrade)
[16:17:53] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> ok, fair enough (re @Thecladis: I am not sure it is sustainable. API wrappers that exist for most languages are usually more than enough)
[16:18:56] <AntiComposite>	 but yeah, base Thumbor 5 didn't have support for a lot of things we needed, including dispatching requests to different engines by file type
[16:20:06] <AntiComposite>	 or handling of large files
[16:21:05] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> Yeah I stopped halfway on that.
[16:21:06] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> I kind of agree with the point that we should rethink software governance in the Wikimedia Movement though. (re @dennistobar: A message in Reddit about needing of volunteers to develop MediaWiki(?) or WMF(?) 
[16:21:07] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/rhmqq1/wikipedia_doesnt_need_your_money_it_needs/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
[16:21:09] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> (Sorry if this space is wrong about publishing this kind of contents: I've participated in the past in Hackathon and the issues about volunteering is always present))
[16:22:26] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> @AntiComposite - Currently browsing this - https://github.com/gi11es/thumbor-docker
[16:22:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> Have we had any discussion arround the technology council that the strategy recommendation says we will create?
[16:23:49] <AntiComposite>	 (correction, was off by 1 on the versions. we run Thumbor 6 currently, Thumbor 7 is in beta)
[16:27:17] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> That's a good question - is there anything that is stopping us from doing something in parallel to the MCDC, at least on an interim basis? (re @chicocvenancio: Have we had any discussion arround the technology council that the strategy recommendation says we will create?)
[16:28:47] <AntiComposite>	 there's a lot of Thumbor features that we don't use -- we only use it to scale, not crop/edit/transform 
[16:30:50] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <chicocvenancio> Nothing stopping us in my view. It will likely need more support from WMF than is planned for the near-future though. (re @fuzheado: That's a good question - is there anything that is stopping us from doing something in parallel to the MCDC, at least on an interim basis?)
[16:32:50] <AntiComposite>	 we mostly use it as a well-implemented framework to build on for our specific needs. that decision decreased the overhead when originally creating the service, but now that upstream development has slowed down, it's becoming more of a problem
[16:33:57] <AntiComposite>	 fwiw MediaWiki isn't any better as a framework to build an imagescaler
[18:02:01] <legoktm[m]>	 <AntiComposite> "that's what's most frustrating..." <- I would be supportive of giving trusted volunteers who are interested access to get it done
[18:11:47] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Forwarded from fuzheado: FYI, it has just been announced that the Structured Data on Commons SPARQL query service (WCQS) will be moved into production mode in February. That's great news, but with a big caveat: "The biggest change to user behavior will be the requirement for user authentication to use all endpoints." - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:SPARQL_query_service/Upcoming_General_Availabilit
[18:11:48] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> I think it's worth discussing in general, but especially within the GLAM community. To my recollection, it's the only instance of needing to be logged-in to consume Wikimedia content. So it is a major shift.
[18:15:40] <legoktm[m]>	 The link got truncated on Matrix/IRC, it's supposed to be https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:SPARQL_query_service/Upcoming_General_Availability_release
[18:17:19] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Yes, sorry about that. Forwarded TG messages probably get munged
[18:17:33] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> FYI, more comments here in Phab - https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T290300
[18:18:09] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Me: we've come so far to finally spend the time to model and add statements to Commons (huzzah!) and we finally have a usable query service for it (huzzah!) and then for the last mile, we're restricting access to it by instituting authentication? For a community that has "open by default" as an ethos, it feels like such an "own goal" misstep here.
[18:18:31] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> I'm thinking about the number of tools, scripts, and utilities that utilize SPARQL queries via Wikidata/WDQS that have given us tremendous capabilities... and the same approach or set of activities cannot be realized for WCQS because of this constraint. We cannot underestimate the headache of having to implement OAuth2 for each and every SPARQL query. I'm also puzzled how a service that has not even launched y
[18:25:34] <AntiComposite>	 the decision was made a while ago due to the operational problems that WDQS has had
[18:27:55] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> @AntiComposite Wouldn't a decent possible solution be "slow, rather than no?"
[18:28:09] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> That is, make anonymous/unauthenticated traffic possible, but very much throttled/limited
[18:32:06] <AntiComposite>	 because it's a new service, I think (this is speculation) there is some concern about making it too open to start, and then having to clamp down later
[18:32:31] <AntiComposite>	 like happened with Wikimedia Maps
[18:34:38] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> I'm not familiar with the Wikimedia Maps issue. What will be odd is WDQS=unauthenticated, WCQS=authenticated
[18:35:19] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> T261424 (re @fuzheado: I'm not familiar with the Wikimedia Maps issue. What will be odd is WDQS=unauthenticated, WCQS=authenticated)
[18:37:03] <legoktm[m]>	 The vast majority of Maps traffic was coming from Pokemon Go websites
[18:37:45] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> was it worse than the Indian TikTok clone requesting that flower image?
[18:38:36] <AntiComposite>	 well, and stop me if you've heard this story before, Wikimedia Maps did not have a team that supported it and was largely unmaintained.
[18:39:05] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> @AntiComposite Indeed, that is a familiar refrain!
[18:39:15] <AntiComposite>	 eventually, something broke and it took down production. Now there's a team to support it
[18:39:18] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> Thanks for that reminder - I now recall hearing about it, but didn't know all the back story.
[18:39:24] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> I'm familiar with that story (although others may not be); I was just interested in a traffic comparison (re @wmtelegram_bot: [irc] <AntiComposite> well, and stop me if you've heard this story before, Wikimedia Maps did not have a team that supported it and was largely unmaintained.)
[18:41:14] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Jan_ainali> Is there actually a map team now? Where can I find out more about it? (re @wmtelegram_bot: [irc] <AntiComposite> eventually, something broke and it took down production. Now there's a team to support it)
[18:41:38] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <fuzheado> At least in the case of the Maps API, it was open by default, then closed after patterns emerged. One could perhaps argue that there might have been a better "API key" solution, but at least it started out as open. What I fail to understand is why WCQS is being launched so restrictively, while its almost-twin WDQS will stay completely unauthenticated.
[18:42:36] <AntiComposite>	 there isn't a Maps team, Product Infrastructure got stuck with it. https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Maps/2021_modernization_plan
[18:43:45] <legoktm[m]>	 it's now the Content Transform team fyi, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Content_Transform_Team
[18:46:57] <AntiComposite>	 can we get a team dedicated to making sure all the references to teams get cleaned up every 6 months when the teams change again? /s but not actually
[18:48:00] <AntiComposite>	 <insert IT Crowd gif here>
[20:26:49] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Lol (re @wmtelegram_bot: [irc] <legoktm[m]> The vast majority of Maps traffic was coming from Pokemon Go websites)