[00:00:00] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> not everyone finds the foreign key mapping intuitive (re @Thecladis: Why would you need a diagram?)
[00:01:03] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> it's good that you find it straightforward, but I don't
[00:01:18] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> 😅😅
[00:01:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> ...and that reaction is part of the problem
[00:02:20] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Well, it is not exactly a laughing emoji :)
[00:06:36] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Hmm well there is https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Manual:Database_layout/diagram&action=render perhaps someone can draw some arrows there 😅
[00:07:29] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> yes this was brought up earlier (re @bd808: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Manual:Database_layout/diagram&action=render)
[00:07:34] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Ah well it is graph, so perhaps not as simple but probably doable somehow...
[00:07:44] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Ah (re @mahir256: yes this was brought up earlier)
[00:08:09] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> going through a list or grid of tables to find which one sounds most likely to be the one a column would be referring to in order to see what columns it has and whether that might be the table I need isn't very efficient for me
[00:08:28] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> But it says it in the documentation for each table
[00:08:38] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Why would you need to guess it?
[00:09:13] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> having to go to the documentation for each table defeats the benefit we expect from the diagram (re @Thecladis: But it says it in the documentation for each table)
[00:09:41] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Ah, well, I always perceived the diagram just as being an illustration 😅
[00:10:23] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Usually I need to read the documentation to know what each column represents exactly anyway
[00:10:51] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Such as in what format page title is, sometimes it is normalised to have _ instead of space, sometimes no, and so forth
[00:10:53] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> like a link from "pr_level" in that diagram to [[Manual:Page_restrictions_table#pr_level]] would be a great start
[00:11:35] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Jan_ainali> It is an illustration. What's so "just" about that? (a map is also an illustration) (re @Thecladis: Ah, well, I always perceived the diagram just as being an illustration 😅)
[00:12:25] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I mean that it might as well be replaced with a picture of a goat :) (re @Jan_ainali: It is an illustration. What's so "just" about that? (a map is also an illustration))
[00:12:37] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> I never used it as an informative bit
[00:12:52] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> But in case of maps I often do :)
[00:13:10] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Jan_ainali> Ah, you meant decoration, not illustration. (re @Thecladis: I mean that it might as well be replaced with a picture of a goat :))
[00:13:18] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> :D, kinda
[00:14:19] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> Yeah it is interesting how different people rely on different ways of giving the same information
[00:14:41] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> then our brains presumably make sense of things in completely different ways. without an overview like a database diagram or map, I'm lost
[00:14:46] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> One of the reasons why most Wikipedia articles suck, since they provide only one way to consume the info (re @Thecladis: Yeah it is interesting how different people rely on different ways of giving the same information)
[00:16:00] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Thecladis> In this case documentation is kinda like a map for me, while the diagram is more of an aerial view photo (re @Nikki: then our brains presumably make sense of things in completely different ways. without an overview like a database diagram or map...)
[00:17:10] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> once I have an overview, I can form a mental model of it and then look up the details of things I'm interested in
[00:19:57] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> it's the same with navigating in real life, I look at maps, zoom in on the areas I'm interested in, and then I can easily navigate using the my mental map, because I can see in my head how everything connects
[00:20:54] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Nikki> if I have to create a mental map on the fly, it's a lot slower and more confusing, because I also have to work out how all the fragments I'm collecting connect to each other
[09:28:03] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Auregann> Hello all! The input survey for the Celtic Knot Language Conference is running until Monday 17th. If you're involved in developing a community on a small wiki, if you're interested in Wikidata, or if you're speaking an underserved language, your input would be really helpful! Survey available in en, fr, es, ar: https://wolke.wikimedia.de/apps/forms/yrnHWyBZCY4TWjag
[13:21:28] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <AlexandraHR1> Happy Wikipedia Day! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Day
[17:30:29] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <Evesiesta> Happy Wikipedia Day!
[18:50:10] <wm-bb>	 [telegram] <mahir256> Is there an ETA for Python 3.10 being available on Toolforge?
[18:55:38] <taavi>	 we generally use whatever version of Python is included in Debian releases, and the next major Debian release probably won't happen until mid 2023