[02:13:09] Imagine a world where MediaWiki is rewrote on Ruby [02:13:39] nope nope nope nope nope nope [02:14:59] But I should preffer C# (and microservices using netcore with kubernets (API containers) and a visual layer in another container in typescript [02:16:08] Someone know why MediaWiki depository is not in GitHub (I'm not talking about mirror repository, the main repository) [02:16:51] because MediaWiki is older than GitHub, because the WMF prefers to self-host critical infrastructure, and because Gerrit is better than GitHub [02:20:18] Self-host = More money?. Several software repositories on subversion were migrated to github. It could be less expensive for Wikimedia and more free (not like a beer) and open for a community. Private self-hosted repositories is more a closed enterprise environment phylosophy [02:21:49] I'm just asking and trying understand why tell that MediaWiki is older than github is not a valid argument IMHO [02:22:36] https://diff.wikimedia.org/2012/02/15/wikimedia-engineering-moving-from-subversion-to-git/ [02:22:42] That is the reasoning from the time hte migration was done [02:24:32] Github was created on 2008 and this post was on 2012 [02:25:35] What is the benefit of rehashing these discussions? [02:29:10] Where was this rehashed discussed? [02:30:29] Thanks for the link. I want just understand [02:32:34] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GitLab_consultation#FAQ [02:32:49] >Why is GitHub not considered? [02:32:49] > GitHub would be the first tool required to participate in the Wikimedia technical community that would be non Free Software and non self-hosted. [02:32:49] > GitHub also does not meet all of our needs; for example, GitHub grants little control of metadata, no influence over privacy policy/data retention, sanctions and bans, little control over backups and data integrity checks, and no long-term guaranteed access to underlying repository settings and configuration. [02:41:40] short, we don't want GitHub because we don't trust it and we want to be in control of everything. Thanks for the FAQ [02:43:31] That’s part of it [02:43:42] Gerrit is a lot better for doing code review too [02:44:27] mobile frontend? or it has another name? [02:44:28] istr it was Hampton's thing (re @Wilfredo Rafael: Imagine a world where MediaWiki is rewrote on Ruby) [02:46:40] Isn't PHP faster than Ruby? [02:47:18] The problem in MediaWiki isn't PHP, but unreadable monstrosities such as Parser.php... [02:49:16] Personally I prefer Azure DevOps (re @tehreedy: Gerrit is a lot better for doing code review too) [02:49:40] Front-end (UI) (re @jeremy_b: mobile frontend? or it has another name? [02:49:42] istr it was Hampton's thing) [02:51:39] The problem is not the tool, but when I stopped to develop in PHP in my jobs my live become easy. PHP is just a magnet for junk code from inexperienced developers for its ease that encourages bad practices (re @Thecladis: The problem in MediaWiki isn't PHP, but unreadable monstrosities such as Parser.php...) [02:52:34] Isn't it true about many languages? Like Python for example which does not even have an enforced incapsulation (re @Wilfredo Rafael: The problem is not the tool, but when I stopped to develop in PHP in my jobs my live become easy. PHP is just a magnet for junk ...) [02:57:48] Yes, Some scripting languages are like this, and shouldn't be used for large projects. (re @Thecladis: Isn't it true about many languages? Like Python for example which does not even have an enforced incapsulation) [02:58:06] A lot of this is just personal opinion [02:58:47] Which doesn’t make it wrong, but doesn’t make it right either [02:59:05] You’ve got to remember that PHP runs one of the worlds largest website just fine [02:59:37] Btw, is Facebook still using PHP/HHVM or they have switched to something else now? [03:00:03] they're using Hack on top of HHVM mostly [03:00:09] All the opinions are personal obviously (re @tehreedy: A lot of this is just personal opinion) [03:00:22] which is PHP with a different type system [03:01:17] because when you're Facebook you can create a new language instead of using comments like the rest of us :) [03:01:39] Facebook stopped to using php (re @tehreedy: You’ve got to remember that PHP runs one of the worlds largest website just fine) [03:01:52] I was meaning Wikipedia et al [03:02:13] also, MediaWiki was built by programmers who were unexperienced at the time [03:03:47] This is compatible with the view of If this works, don't touch it. Something that php developers understood after years of encountering monstrosities (re @tehreedy: You’ve got to remember that PHP runs one of the worlds largest website just fine) [03:04:07] if you're volunteering to rewrite MediaWiki in something else, go right ahead [03:04:26] Modern PHP code with Symfony or Laravel is something à la Java 8 I would say. Except for the lack of generators [03:04:31] How much time do you think it would take to rewrite MW in any other language? [03:05:11] People complain about us not moving fast enough as is. Without spending a non trivial amount of time rewriting it in some other lang [03:05:37] accounting for already knowing what features need to be built, I'd say 10 years [03:05:45] /s [03:05:48] When I was 15 years old I worked on several free projects but today I don't have time, and if I had I wouldn't program in php (a personal trauma) (re @wmtelegram_bot: if you're volunteering to rewrite MediaWiki in something else, go right ahead) [03:06:46] And that’s your choice… Which is perfectly fine [03:08:22] If wmf didn't burn money in a big bonfire of useless projects, it might take less time than you think. I dream of the day someone takes over WMF and fires half of its staff and focuses on building more modern software. (re @tehreedy: How much time do you think it would take to rewrite MW in any other language?) [03:08:52] alright, that's enough of that, I'm going to go do something productive. [03:08:52] If you’re here to just trash the WMF [03:09:04] Yeah, that ^ [03:10:54] I remember that Twitter used Ruby in the beginning, then they changed it to slow, I imagine those slow problems still exist. [04:20:39] What do they use? (re @Wilfredo Rafael: I remember that Twitter used Ruby in the beginning, then they changed it to slow, I imagine those slow problems still exist.) [04:20:53] Trashing WMF is a lifestyle :P (re @tehreedy: If you’re here to just trash the WMF) [04:21:22] not the first Telegram group in which that person has done that (re @tehreedy: If you’re here to just trash the WMF) [04:27:59] They comeback to java, eBay use java too and MSN C# of course, complete list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites (re @Thecladis: What do they use?) [04:28:19] Didn't know about that article, thanks :) (re @Wilfredo Rafael: They comeback to java, eBay use java too and MSN C# of course, complete list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_langua...) [04:29:01] Me too not XD but it was the first result of google [07:26:10] that's subjective. gerrit is the biggest reason why I don't submit patches (re @tehreedy: Gerrit is a lot better for doing code review too) [07:38:03] gerrit has never made any sense to me whatsoever and the one patch I did manage to submit was only with someone literally telling me exactly what to do, step by step >_< [08:51:15] Submitting patches it different to doing code review (re @Nikki: that's subjective. gerrit is the biggest reason why I don't submit patches) [08:52:09] And while I’m sure other people struggle too, many others do not (re @Nikki: gerrit has never made any sense to me whatsoever and the one patch I did manage to submit was only with someone literally tellin...) [08:56:21] No, the old ruby mobile proxy was before MobileFrontend. I worked on it together with Hampton at some time. (re @jeremy_b: mobile frontend? or it has another name? [08:56:21] istr it was Hampton's thing) [09:01:27] Yeah gerrit is just as complex as github/gitlab really. One is just used more often than the other, and so more people are used to it, thinking its easier. [09:01:28] [09:01:30] But code review wise, gerrit does some things that are really useful. Especially stacking changes, allowing for smaller patches when working on big tickets. [10:58:23] and used like the worst possible arguments for that (re @mahir256: not the first Telegram group in which that person has done that) [10:59:06] There is plenty of things to dislike WMF for but "is not doing full scale rewrite of all software because of PHP memes" is like the weakest one [11:05:21] PHP sucks [11:05:24] But so does everything else [11:15:19] they're two sides of the same process (although I don't find it easy to use for looking at other people's changes either) (re @tehreedy: Submitting patches it different to doing code review) [11:17:07] yes, that's what subjective means :P (re @tehreedy: And while I’m sure other people struggle too, many others do not) [13:02:07] You have all ready been called out for this behavior in other channels for this. Drop it. (re @Wilfredo Rafael: If wmf didn't burn money in a big bonfire of useless projects, it might take less time than you think. I dream of the day someon...) [14:23:55] No, C# and Java are far away and especially the last C# version is amazing (re @wmtelegram_bot: But so does everything else) [14:26:57] stop debating languages here. if you must continue, do it somewhere else. (re @Wilfredo Rafael: No, C# and Java are far away and especially the last C# version is amazing) [17:54:35] Is there any way to alert the value for a variable? (e.g. mw.config.wgCanonicalSpecialPageName) [17:56:29] what are you trying to accomplish? [17:56:30] idk if you mean alert() I would usually prefer console.log() (re @Yetkin: Is there any way to alert the value for a variable? (e.g. mw.config.wgCanonicalSpecialPageName)) [18:46:25] I am trying to update a gadget. I hope console.log() helps me out. Thanks [19:03:41] Hmm, I am on this page [19:03:42] [19:03:43] https://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%C3%96zel:Revizyon%C4%B0nceleme&action=submit [19:03:45] [19:03:46] but the call [19:03:48] [19:03:49] var pageName = mw.config.get("wgCanonicalSpecialPageName"); [19:03:51] [19:03:52] return undefined. What is the issue here? [19:07:10] OK, that works now. When I update a gadget, it takes a few minutes to take effect, I think [19:18:57] Well gitlab is superior to gerrit. Whenever I am pinged at gerrit it takes me several minutes to figure out where to look. Sometimes it feels like one needs a PhD to figure out how to leave a damn comment and not -1 by accident or something 😅 (re @tehreedy: Submitting patches it different to doing code review) [19:20:05] <3 (re @wmtelegram_bot: But so does everything else) [19:22:11] I think both of them are too tied to some particular big firms and might change on those firms whims (re @Wilfredo Rafael: No, C# and Java are far away and especially the last C# version is amazing) [19:24:48] Well, I personally see benefit in the debate, as long as it is civil, for the sake of remembering that while rewriting MW isn't a good idea, we have plenty of people here who might be writing new tools for Toolforge and they mostly have an opportunity to use whatever they want. Well, almost. That would be possible one day when custom Docker containers are supported on Toolforge. [19:24:49] Which is the day I hope will come eventually. (re @jeremy_b: stop debating languages here. if you must continue, do it somewhere else.) [19:26:38] What I usually do is simply test the code by copypasting it into browser console and executing it from there, and only when it works I paste it onto the script page. (re @Yetkin: OK, that works now. When I update a gadget, it takes a few minutes to take effect, I think) [20:07:05] Sounds good. How to execute the code there? (re @Thecladis: What I usually do is simply test the code by copypasting it into browser console and executing it from there, and only when it w...) [20:07:48] Depending on the browser it is either ctrl+enter or enter I believe [20:12:12] works well. Thanks for the tip 😊 [21:47:33] Gerrit is a power user tool, with all the typical advantages and disadvantages of focusing on power users. Github is more focused on inexperienced developers working on small projects. (re @Nikki: that's subjective. gerrit is the biggest reason why I don't submit patches) [21:48:20] (Although these days Gerrit has caught up significantly on UX and Github has caught up significantly on support for more complex review workflows, so the distance is not as large as it once was.) [22:34:39] If Gerrit is better than GitHub, then why we are migrating to GitLab which is more similar to the latter one? [22:51:29] Someone any idea why the metadata for https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=imageinfo&titles=File:%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%84_%D9%81%D9%8A_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%86%D9%86_%D8%A5%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1_3.pdf&iiprop=metadata returns the warning "This result was truncated because it would otherwise be larger than the limit of 12,582,912 bytes." ?