[07:16:59] 😘😘😘 [07:40:45] Anyone around who could approve a test OAuth consumer for us? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:OAuthListConsumers/view/fa2808d09aec008667dfe90c1bdfc2f4 [11:40:52] @gtisza can help you. (re @tuukkahastrup: Anyone around who could approve a test OAuth consumer for us? https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:OAuthListConsumers/view/fa...) [14:17:41] FYI, the following talk page discussion might be of interest and is in the same area - how well connected are the WMF decision makers (and more importantly, budgeteers) to the needs and desires of the community. I'm assuming a lot of good faith here, as I know it is a very tough thing to measure and track. However, as we stumble upon more and more disconnects, we need to ask this question. [14:17:41] [14:17:42] Though this is from last month, it is part of the proposed "Third-party resources policy" which could have major ramifications, because it may "lock down" (or lock out) a lot of the ways we do things in the Hackathon community to be bold and innovate. [14:17:44] [14:17:45] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Third-party_resources_policy#This_is_a_step_backwards_on_our_strategic_goals [14:17:47] [14:17:48] Ping: @djhartman Galder (re @MaartenDammers: The people running Toolforge / WIkimedia Cloud seem to be a bit disconnected from the actual users.) [15:02:33] I see copy and paste is still broken in thereply tools thing >_< [15:21:05] thanks for the ping. My feelings here are that the product management doesn't know the real extension of the product itself (re @fuzheado: FYI, the following talk page discussion might be of interest and is in the same area - how well connected are the WMF decision m...) [15:21:27] extension? [15:27:12] expanse, sorry for the false friend [16:22:20] The WMF now has a Moderator Tools team which is an improvement. It doesn't have a product team owning on-wiki technical contributor tooling (gadgets, Lua, TemplateStyles, complex template features etc) though, and understanding of both the existing features and the how they support the contributor ecosystem is quite limited amongst product managers, I think. (Although the 3rd-par [16:22:21] ty resources policy proposal doesn't have anything to do with product managers, it comes from the security team.) [16:22:23] [16:22:24] The Cloud team has a much better understanding of how their platforms are used IMO, but it's a tiny team and a much more maintenance-intensive task (if you abandoned the Gadgets etc. extensions, which is pretty much what happened, they will keep working, while Cloud platforms require regular OS upgrades, OpenStack upgrades etc. etc.). [16:23:32] That moderator tools thing is weird. It feels like they are reïnventing ORES or something [16:24:47] The moderator tools will be primarily engaging with Commons, we're already in touch with the community [16:24:58] (sorry, speaking on behalf of the WMF team) [16:25:26] the work will start this week officially, but the engineers have already started collecting ideas and feedback [16:29:05] I assume this was referring to the Automoderator project, which is intended to be cross-wiki. [16:29:05] [16:29:06] ORES is very costly. Its revert-based model is not very good, and the human evaluation based models have only been set up on 30 or so wikis. Updates to the model are infeasible, even on enwiki the last relabeling attempt was in 2018 and even that never finished. [16:30:31] (Well, "infeasible" is maybe unfair since the disbanding of the ORES team probably contributed. But in any case, it doesn't scale well.) [16:30:37] ORES was a nice version 1, time for verson 2 I guess? [16:41:26] Version 2 of ORES is Lift Wing. [16:42:08] disclaimer: just for Wikipedia, others wikis are not supported (AFAIK) (re @CiellVanB: Version 2 of ORES is Lift Wing.) [16:45:17] (And still under development) [16:49:00] If there is a WMF team creating automoderation tools, my bot (SeroBOT) will be shutdown when ORES is closed: I don't see an advantage to run an antavandalism bot if the WMF will use better tech than anti vandalism bots 😐 [16:49:00] Now I'm trying to port my bot to LiftWing without success (due I don't have enough volunteer time to do it) [16:50:27] (and yes, I share feedback with the team about my bot and my experience ;)) [16:55:51] ORES will not be closed persé: they are moving the community build models to the new system. [16:56:56] Machine Learning/Modernization - MediaWiki [16:56:58] https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Machine_Learning/Modernization#Lift_Wing [16:59:09] Yes, I understand the decision is "not now", but in some moment, in the future, they _will pull the plug_ on ORES. I feel comfortable if there is a better supported model than ORES =) (please, don't read as "I don't like the changes") (re @CiellVanB: ORES will not be closed persé: they are moving the community build models to the new system.) [23:17:05] To be fair, the current version of the proposed policy is much better than the original one which prompted these replies in the talk page (re @fuzheado: FYI, the following talk page discussion might be of interest and is in the same area - how well connected are the WMF decision m...) [23:19:38] Ores will be shut down but its models will switch to liftwing. Technically you'll only need to just change your url or make a bit of changes in the new response format. [23:19:39] The infra is being replaced. The models, at least for now, are not. After that. There are plans for a better models being built by the research team. Whether that will work or not I don't know (re @dennistobar: Yes, I understand the decision is "not now", but in some moment, in the future, they _will pull the plug_ on ORES. I feel comfor...) [23:27:11] Ooh, are we finally getting modern ML infrastructure? 😄 [23:27:42] (ORES had a great run but it's probably not an industry leader at this point.) [23:33:10] Yup. Ciell mentioned it: https://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Machine_Learning/Modernization#Lift_Wing (re @harej: Ooh, are we finally getting modern ML infrastructure? 😄)