[04:39:45] Less than 8 hours left for Wikimania submissions! Deadline: April 10, 2024 - 1200 UTC [04:39:45] https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2024:Program [13:56:54] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/20ef69b6/file_59458.jpg [13:57:10] Can anyone please reset my tool account? [15:24:00] Problem fixed [18:07:55] Please visit flixbus.com to find affordable bus fares. (re @nokibsarkar: Actually, I was trying to estimate the cost of transportation in poland.) [18:33:26] Interesting, I never had the impression from the website. (re @amire80: I like the general idea of "don't ask to ask", but I don't like this particular description of it. It's quite close to reality, ...) [19:20:46] to me it comes across as hostile (the way it frames it as "you're doing this bad thing, you're doing this other bad thing" and then confidently states "the solution is", reinforcing that the author thinks that what you're doing is a problem), maybe that's what you're picking up on? (re @amire80: I like the general idea of "don't ask to ask", but I don't like this particular descr [19:20:47] iption of it. It's quite close to reality, ...) [19:27:09] the problem with things like "don't ask to ask", the xy problem, and nohello is that they are problems but only for one side of the conversation [19:27:54] they are things that lead to help fatigue, which results in annoyed websites with memorable URLs [19:29:38] I don't particularly mind those, they do a good enough job of explaining those particular problems. I do wish there was a version of https://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html that I'd be comfortable sharing in polite company though. [20:07:55] AntiComposite: https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html might be reasonable. It at least doesn't have a direct relationship with ESR. [20:08:17] I'm sure andre would welcome help making https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug better too [20:09:29] The wikipage links to it under "See also" [20:10:07] andre: yeah, that's where I copied the link from. I should have made that more clear. [20:10:12] ah :) [20:12:56] I think AntiComposite is framing the issue of support fatigue well in this discussion. Many of us are likely to agree that it is difficult to give nuanced feedback on how to ask better questions/give friendlier responses at scale. We try to find reasonable short cuts, but these are not always received well. [20:14:54] Yeah, it makes too many assumptions about negative intentions. A sensible, and probably more relevant assumption about people who ask to ask is that they are trying to be polite, which is not a wrong thing to do. It's just that they are possibly trying too hard to be polite. Maybe some people think that being direct equals to being impolite, and sometimes it actually is, but in t [20:14:55] hese contexts, being direct is often preferable, and not impolite at all. (re @Nikki: to me it comes across as hostile (the way it frames it as "you're doing this bad thing, you're doing this other bad thing" and t...) [20:15:05] Yes, I am part of that problem. :) [20:15:40] Asking to ask doesn't necessary mean that the person is stupid or lazy. Maybe occasionally it does, but definitely not always. [20:16:01] Maybe we need politer content on websites like https://xyproblem.info or https://dontasktoask.com/ [20:16:35] ...or https://heyguys.cc/ [20:17:12] I don't have the time to write a custom reply every time so I link to pages that are likely not perfect. [20:22:56] reading https://dontasktoask.com/ in detail... this mini essay is not a great one IMO. The "don't ask to ask" part is as I think everyone has said fine. But this essay is aggressive in its assumptions about why this is annoying behavior in a support chat system. [20:23:36] It's FOSS, https://github.com/maunium/dontasktoask.com, so maybe we could figure out how to make it better? [20:24:22] LOL that it is released under the MIT license. That's not how you license an essay... [20:27:51] I think a better essay would hit on the ideas that support rooms are for asking questions so don't worry about it being roode just to drop in and start asking things, people who answer questions are not necessarily going to do so in real time, and that until some details emerge about your question it will be difficult to say if it has an answer at all. [20:28:00] *rude [20:28:10] "roode" is a heck of typo :) [20:33:45] please ask your question, your whole question, and nothing but your question /s [20:38:56] ooh, the "How to get the developer community to solve your problem" link on mw:How to report a bug got taken down as...a TOS vio? [21:02:32] AntiComposite, diff link? [21:02:48] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug#See_also link 2 [21:03:03] it was on google docs [21:03:35] what link? :) [21:03:42] ah sorry [21:04:06] another link to remove, heh