[00:09:22] I didn’t find one. It doesn’t look too complicated, so someone will no doubt create one pretty soon. (re @amire80: 1. Is there a template version of this? As far as I know, wiki editors usually avoid invoking modules directly from pages that a...) [00:15:49] “call” would come from the Z20K2… Z20@he (re @amire80: 2. On https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Wikifunctions:Introduction , under "Create tests", those strings are mentioned: [00:15:50] * Creat...) [00:16:58] …and “function” from the Z20K1 (re @amire80: 2. On https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Wikifunctions:Introduction , under "Create tests", those strings are mentioned: [00:16:59] * Creat...) [00:23:17] How do you know? Can you teach me the trick so I wouldn't have to ask every time? (re @Al: “call” would come from the Z20K2… Z20@he) [00:50:49] You are adding a Test case, which is represented by the Z20/test case object. This is defined here: https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Wikifunctions:Function_model#Z20/Testers (re @amire80: How do you know? Can you teach me the trick so I wouldn't have to ask every time?) [00:56:57] But, of course, the true definition is Z20 itself. And like any other object type, it contains its own set of multilingual labels for each of its keys. (re @amire80: How do you know? Can you teach me the trick so I wouldn't have to ask every time?) [01:16:11] To check this, I changed the spelling of the Hebrew names of Z20 K1, K2, and K3, and got very weird results. [01:17:45] I look at https://www.wikifunctions.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateObject&uselang=he&zid=Z20&Z20K1=Z10096 . [01:19:29] Under Content (תוכן), I see Function (with a dropdown), and two red "Select Function" expandable buttons. [01:21:26] I see that the spelling of the "call" and "result validation" labels has changed, but the spelling of "function" has not changed. [01:22:06] To compare, look at English: https://www.wikifunctions.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateObject&uselang=en&zid=Z20&Z20K1=Z10096 [01:32:47] No, that’s right. You are dropping down a level. The Z20 has a key for the function… the interface is expecting you to supply a function (call) for that key. So the red “link” is an empty Z7@he. If you click it, you should see the label for the Z7 in grey and a box to search for the Z8@he you are going to call in your test (which will fill the vacant slot in the Z20@he). [01:32:47] (re @amire80: I see that the spelling of the "call" and "result validation" labels has changed, but the spelling of "function" has not changed...) [03:33:20] Sorry, I don't understand :( (re @Al: No, that’s right. You are dropping down a level. The Z20 has a key for the function… the interface is expecting you to supply a ...) [03:35:41] Here's a screenshot of adding a test case to Z10096: [03:35:53] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/603c6be4/file_58524.jpg [03:36:57] And another one, which call->Select Function expanded: [03:37:16] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/bbd745ba/file_58525.jpg [03:37:53] The word "function" appears here twice: between "Contents" and "is palindrome", and then between "Function call" and "Select function". [03:38:03] Do these two come from different places? [03:38:18] Can you please send me a screenshot of where am I supposed to translate them? [03:38:46] (Important bonus: explain me how can I find them myself.) [04:22:29] The first one comes from Z14K1 (re @amire80: The word "function" appears here twice: between "Contents" and "is palindrome", and then between "Function call" and "Select fun...) [04:26:34] I found out by reloading the page in a different language. For a split second the Z14K1 shows up before it is replaced by a translation. (re @Toby: The first one comes from Z14K1) [04:44:06] The second does not seem to come from the same place. I tried the reload trick, but my eyes weren't fast enough when I also had to open the dropdown. I then resorted to actually changing the en-au label of Z14K1, but it only changed the first "function" not the second "function". So I'm still not sure where that comes from. (re @Toby: The first one comes from Z14K1) [04:45:09] My recommendation would be to nominate a special language code which does *not* default to en/mul/etc, but also never has any labels, so would always show up with ZIDs instead. [05:29:42] The second comes from Z7K1. I was also able to trap it and confirm by editing the en-au label. (re @amire80: The word "function" appears here twice: between "Contents" and "is palindrome", and then between "Function call" and "Select fun...) [05:31:14] https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/c2a34aa5/file_58527.jpg [05:32:01] My recommendation to make this easier would be to nominate a special language code which does *not* default to en/mul/etc, but also never has any labels, so would always show up with ZIDs instead. (re @amire80: (Important bonus: explain me how can I find them myself.)) [06:21:12] Z20@heZ20K2 is the first “call” (קריאה לפונקצייה) and Z20K3 is the second “result validation” (בדיקת התקינות של התוצאה). The blue “value type” fields in Z20 are both links to Z7@he, which is entitled:קריאה לפונקציה(That is, the Z2@he that contains the Z7’s Z4@he is the wiki “page” Z7@he. The text that appears in the function call selector should be the label for t [06:28:28] This is the pop-up on the Z7@he where the text can be edited. : https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/44f5d3f6/file_58529.jpg [06:55:58] Z10096@he tells you it is a Z8 just below its title. The wiki page Z8@he defines the structure of such an object and the interface follows that structure. Item 3 in the Z8 has English label “testers”. The “value type” for item 3 is a function call. If you click the > beside “value type”, you see the call expanded to show that it is a function call to the Typed list fu [06:55:59] nction for items of type “Test case”, which is a link to the type for such items (Z20). The correct inference (only an inference, as far as I know) is that the “Tests” listed on the function page are items of the type Z20@he. When you click + in that box, you are adding an object of that type and the interface follows the structure for that type of object. (re @amire80: ( [06:56:01] Important bonus: explain me how can I find them myself.)) [06:58:39] I can only assume you were adding an implementation rather than a test 😏 (re @Toby: The first one comes from Z14K1) [07:03:06] On the other hand, maybe first selector for a test is incorrectly linked to an implementation? It obviously works in practice 🤷‍♂️. (re @Toby: The second does not seem to come from the same place. I tried the reload trick, but my eyes weren't fast enough when I also had ...) [07:10:02] So the first “function” is the label for the Z20K1. The second should be the label for Z7K1. (re @amire80: The word "function" appears here twice: between "Contents" and "is palindrome", and then between "Function call" and "Select fun...) [07:14:42] Yes, Z20K1 and Z7K1. (re @amire80: Do these two come from different places?) [07:16:43] Sorry, I sent you the screenshot for changing “function call”. The label for “function” is also on the Z7@he. (re @amire80: Can you please send me a screenshot of where am I supposed to translate them?) [07:19:14] “qqx”, which is where we came in… https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:GrounderUK/page (re @Toby: My recommendation to make this easier would be to nominate a special language code which does *not* default to en/mul/etc, but a...) [07:40:51] (I don’t seem to be able to expand the function call in mobile view. I’ll raise a ticket for this.) (re @amire80: (Important bonus: explain me how can I find them myself.)) [07:55:47] Not to worry, @Sannita, I see we have T359898 now 🙂 (re @Al: Can someone pick up the qqx question, please? I don’t think it has a Z60, so providing the ZID itself as the qqx label for a ZID...) [09:24:34] (Okay, I see it in mobile view now; I must have been looking at the wrong type before.) (re @amire80: (Important bonus: explain me how can I find them myself.)) [09:48:00] Aha. I'm monolingual enough to have never come across this! But I'm glad it works the same way I would solve it :) (re @Al: “qqx”, which is where we came in… https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:GrounderUK/page) [09:53:04] Nor had I before Amir mentioned it 🙂 (re @Toby: Aha. I'm monolingual enough to have never come across this! But I'm glad it works the same way I would solve it :)) [11:32:04] I noticed that very brief flash of ZIDs before they change to labels, but this is an artifact and not a reliable method. (re @Toby: I found out by reloading the page in a different language. For a split second the Z14K1 shows up before it is replaced by a tran...) [11:34:36] Editing a label is a method for _verifying_ that a certain label is used once you think you've found it. But it's really not a very _good_ method, and it's not a method for _finding_ the label in the first place. (re @Toby: The second comes from Z7K1. I was also able to trap it and confirm by editing the en-au label.) [12:04:40] Agreed. I’m working on it. All the object labels that are not specific to a function are assigned labels in their types (in the Z12). There are only 32 types and none of them has a lot of label slots. Someone in WMF should publish a list but I shall go through all the Z4s if I have to. It’s a bit late for you, but I know you are more concerned about those who follow. @Sannita [12:04:41] (re @amire80: Editing a label is a method for verifying that a certain label is used once you think you've found it. But it's really not a ver...) [12:19:47] "_what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you._" (re @amire80: I noticed that very brief flash of ZIDs before they change to labels, but this is an artifact and not a reliable method.) [12:22:57] Thanks for working on it. (And what do you mean when you say that it's late for me?) (re @Al: Agreed. I’m working on it. All the object labels that are not specific to a function are assigned labels in their types (in the ...) [12:23:11] A quote from somewhere? :) (re @Toby: "what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a night...) [12:23:48] I mean that you have already translated most of them 😎👍 (re @amire80: Thanks for working on it. (And what do you mean when you say that it's late for me?)) [12:41:27] I think I understand what you say, but I really don't want to be anyone's nightmare here :) (re @Toby: "what I do have are a very particular set of skills. Skills I have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make me a night...) [12:42:01] I can hope that those skills are useful for a project whose declared vision it is to be _open to billions of people more who will not have to learn English first in order to learn how to program_. [12:42:19] I'm quite sure that there are _plenty_ of other things to translate. (re @Al: I mean that you have already translated most of them 😎👍) [12:44:34] Liam Neeson in Taken, *(Q277080)* (re @amire80: A quote from somewhere? :)) [12:45:09] Until recently, I had been mostly translating the WikiLambda extension on translatewiki.net, and the [[Wikifunctions:Glossary]], but not doing much more on Wikifunctions. While I was doing that, quite a lot of things were being translated into Hebrew on wikifunctions.org by other well-meaning people. Some of what they did is correct, some isn't. I'd like to review that all systematically. [12:45:38] I meant that my "method" was a nightmare for you. (re @amire80: I think I understand what you say, but I really don't want to be anyone's nightmare here :)) [12:45:54] Oh :) (re @Toby: I meant that my "method" was a nightmare for you.) [12:48:07] On a somewhat different, by related topic: What is a "Display function" in the WikiLambda extension message `wikilambda-renderer-unexpected-result-error` ? [12:48:11] Sounds like something that should be in the Glossary. [12:48:18] I don't know that one. Many of the errors are very hard to understand even in English. [12:51:18] I’d guess it’s a verb phrase rather than a noun phrase. Imperative “display” object “function”. Just a guess 🤔 (re @amire80: On a somewhat different, by related topic: What is a "Display function" in the WikiLambda extension message wikilambda-renderer-...) [12:55:33] Ah, I see you haven’t translated the Z50s yet… https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Special:ListObjectsByType/Z50?uselang=he (re @amire80: On a somewhat different, by related topic: What is a "Display function" in the WikiLambda extension message wikilambda-renderer-...) [13:03:41] Seriously, though… if you can demonstrate that you get a Z14K1 label on the tests page, you should raise a ticket. It should definitely be Z20K1. I may be wrong but you can quote me on that! (re @Toby: I meant that my "method" was a nightmare for you.) [13:06:08] (Well, you know… I haven’t actually checked that it’s not a known defect…) 😏 (re @Toby: I meant that my "method" was a nightmare for you.) [13:12:43] Here it is now: https://www.wikifunctions.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateObject&uselang=en-au&zid=Z20&Z20K1=Z10096 : https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/85866d90/file_58548.jpg [13:13:34] It's not necessarily related to its being an error message. What is a "Display function" in general? (re @Toby: I don't know that one. Many of the errors are very hard to understand even in English.) [13:15:40] Not a term that I am familiar with or a concept that I can relate to. (re @amire80: It's not necessarily related to its being an error message. What is a "Display function" in general?) [13:17:25] You know I believed you all along? (After I pondered your second message) But one must have evidence for outrageous claims! 😏 (re @Toby: Here it is now: https://www.wikifunctions.org/w/index.php?title=Special:CreateObject&uselang=en-au&zid=Z20&Z20K1=Z10096 (with th...) [13:21:29] I can barely keep track of what's in my head, let alone others. So I should file this as a bug? (re @Al: You know I believed you all along? (After I pondered your second message) But one must have evidence for outrageous claims! 😏) [13:22:22] You should! (re @Toby: I can barely keep track of what's in my head, let alone others. So I should file this as a bug?) [13:24:12] It’s obviously not causing any problems, but it’s not right and you never know… 😏 (re @Toby: I can barely keep track of what's in my head, let alone others. So I should file this as a bug?) [13:28:07] T359936 feel free to improve (re @Al: You should!) [13:33:11] Looks good to me (although your “apparently” in uncharacteristically unbold) 😉 (re @Toby: T359936 feel free to improve) [13:34:31] That's so I can blame you if it's wrong (or right!) (re @Al: Looks good to me (although your “apparently” in uncharacteristically unbold) 😉) [14:48:15] Well, yes, but not so much in all the types 👍 I have put a list here https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:GrounderUK/objects#List_of_keys It’s not formatted but you should see there are not so many gaps in the Hebrew labels. All errors and omissions are mine but I didn’t alter any Hebrew on purpose. (re @amire80: I'm quite sure that there are plenty of other things to translate.) [14:58:56] (Okay, so I got Chat GPT to turn it into a sortable wikitable.) (re @amire80: I'm quite sure that there are plenty of other things to translate.) [15:11:52] The qqq for that message says "Error message for the string renderer returning an unexpected type as a result". Perhaps a "display function" is a noun phrase and it is a synonym for "renderer"? Just a guess. (re @amire80: On a somewhat different, by related topic: What is a "Display function" in the WikiLambda extension message wikilambda-renderer-...) [15:22:34] Plausible, I agree. But someone shall get back with the answer (or what they propose to change it to). (re @amire80: The qqq for that message says "Error message for the string renderer returning an unexpected type as a result". Perhaps a "displ...) [16:49:22] Same question about "Reading function" in wikilambda-parser-unexpected-result-error. [17:00:21] https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/Wikifunctions:Project_chat#Translation_questions 🤷‍♂️ (re @amire80: Same question about "Reading function" in wikilambda-parser-unexpected-result-error.) [18:52:14] I more or less got a response to that and added it to the glossary, although now I'm wondering: [18:53:55] James suggested an update was in the pipeline. 🤷‍♂️ (re @amire80: I more or less got a response to that and added it to the glossary, although now I'm wondering:) [18:57:21] As I guessed, and as confirmed by the response in Phabricator, display function is a synonym of renderer, and reading function is a synonym of parser. But according to the Glossary as it has been till now, there's also a thing called "linearizer", and it appears to be related to these terms... Is "linearizer" also a synonym of "renderer"? [18:59:16] GZWder added "linearizer" in November 2020, and I mentioned that it's the opposite of "parser" in December 2020. So it was quite long ago, but I'm _very_ sure that I wouldn't do this without getting a confirmation from someone knowledgeable, probably @vrandecic or some like @Sannita or Quiddity. [18:59:36] Some of these things mean different things to different people in different contexts. I’m guessing this is what will be mentioned, at least, in the update. (re @amire80: As I guessed, and as confirmed by the response in Phabricator, display function is a synonym of renderer, and reading function i...) [19:04:31] Here it is, found it easily. (Telegram search does not always work well, but this time it did.) (re @amire80: The Glossary says: [19:04:32] [19:04:33] linearizer : a function to convert a ZObject to a string. [19:04:35] parser : a function to convert a string to a ZObje...) [19:04:44] So it Nikki who confirmed it ;) [19:07:42] I'm really not sure why is James so cold about the Glossary in Phabricator. It's hard to edit, but it's generally very useful, and it's generally very important to have a good Glossary. Surely I'm not the only who thinks like that?.. [19:08:35] He was probably the one who had to edit it! 😏 (re @amire80: I'm really not sure why is James so cold about the Glossary in Phabricator. It's hard to edit, but it's generally very useful, a...) [19:10:38] He's totally write to dislike the editing experience—it sucks. Making a proper glossary product is one of my big dreams for the Wikimedia world. Our universe is so rich with jargon, and we need something good, and it's not easy to make it. Currently, we have a bunch of glossaries, which are _mostly_ useful, but very messy and not standardized. At least I acknowledge the problem 🤷🏻‍♂️ [19:11:07] But the general idea of a having a good glossary shouldn't be controversial... or am I wrong? [19:14:51] Not in my book. But there’s a reason I’m called Grounder; it derives from the symbol grounding problem. (re @amire80: But the general idea of a having a good glossary shouldn't be controversial... or am I wrong?) [20:04:44] I’ve added commentary to https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:GrounderUK/page in italics at level 3. There may be one of two more Phabricator tickets to add in, but I think you’ll find it helpful as it is. Take care! (re @Sannita: Thanks!) [20:05:17] Thanks again, very much appreciated! (re @Al: I’ve added commentary to https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:GrounderUK/page in italics at level 3. There may be one of two ...)