[00:50:26] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply (Z13036) 
[00:50:27] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply a two-parameter function pairwise to elements of two lists of the same length (Z14779) 
[00:50:28] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply a two-parameter function to a common first argument and a list of second arguments (Z13436) 
[00:50:30] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply a two-parameter function to a list of first arguments and a common second argument (Z13464) 
[00:50:31] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply integer function to natural number (Z17355) 
[00:50:33] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply list of functions (Z13351) 
[00:50:34] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply natural number function to positive integer (Z17352) 
[00:50:36] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> apply two-argument function (Z13318) (re @Feeglgeef: But we only have a 1-argument apply, so we can only do that with 1-argument functions)
[00:52:14] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Ah I didn't know we had that :) (re @Toby: apply (Z13036) 
[00:52:15] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> apply a two-parameter function pairwise to elements of two lists of the same length (Z14779) 
[00:52:16] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> apply a two-parame...)
[00:53:17] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Where is apply n-argument
[00:55:51] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I've been trying to build in by manually creating the function call in Z21133
[01:10:17] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> I don't think this is possible yet (re @Feeglgeef: Where is apply n-argument)
[01:11:10] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> There is phab request to improve this
[01:20:26] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Might we be able to do it with Z808 (re @Toby: I don't think this is possible yet)
[03:54:02] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Russian is my native language, and as far as I can tell, everything in this menu was translated into Russian incorrectly.
[03:54:07] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/06de82fd/file_67528.jpg
[03:54:36] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Everything. Every single menu item.
[03:55:08] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Who translated it? (re @amire80: )
[03:55:11] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Lemme look
[03:55:15] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> A bunch of people.
[03:55:29] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Was.
[03:55:34] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Now I've corrected it all.
[03:55:46] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I've spent about twenty minutes hunting down those strings and correcting them.
[03:56:33] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Some of them are on translatewiki, and others are labels of Wikifunctions objects.
[03:58:14] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I work much more on Hebrew localization than on Russian, under the assumption that Russian is a huge language that doesn't need a lot of help from me because there are a lot of Wikimedians who contribute in it.
[03:59:00] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I mainly see @wolverene or smth on the on-wiki side
[04:00:24] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Wolverène (https://www.wikifunctions.org/wiki/User:Wolver%C3%A8ne)
[04:03:55] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> My ability to contribute Russian localization to Wikifunctions is somewhat limited, because I haven't lived in Russia since 1991 and I haven't studied in a school there above 7th grade, so I don't know computer science terminology in it perfectly. I'm 100% sure that every single item in that menu was half an hour ago, and I'm 98% sure that my corrections are good,
[04:03:55] <wm-bb>	 but... somebody <clipped message>
[04:03:55] <wm-bb>	 <amire80>  other than me should dedicate proper attention to localizing this in Russian. Somebody with more experience with Russian computer science terminology, at least.
[04:05:41] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> The user who added them claims to be a native Russian speaker and is an admin on Wikidata so I don't see how it would be malice, maybe just a coincidence of mistakes? (re @amire80: My ability to contribute Russian localization to Wikifunctions is somewhat limited, because I haven't lived in Russia since 1991...)
[04:05:54] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I'm not saying it's malice :)
[04:07:50] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I make _lots_ of mistakes when translating to Hebrew. Sometimes because I'm tired, sometimes my finger slips, sometimes the English string is poorly written, sometimes the documentation is wrong. Every few days I notice something incorrect when actually using a feature, I check who did it, and most of the time it's me, a few days or months or years ago.
[04:10:19] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> With Wikifunctions, there are a few extra challenges: Generally complex and overloaded computer science terminology, outdated glossary, mixing of strings from the extension and from object labels, etc.
[04:12:39] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Computer science concepts are generally hard to translate as they haven't had hundreds of years to develop as things to need a word for (re @amire80: With Wikifunctions, there are a few extra challenges: Generally complex and overloaded computer science terminology, outdated gl...)
[04:13:21] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Also, somewhat unusual stuff such as the message "Literal $1". $1 can be pretty much any type name, which is not a big deal in English, but in many other languages, the word "literal" is an adjective whose gender has to match the gender of $1. It was translated incorrectly to at least two languages forty minutes ago. (re @amire80: With Wikifunctions, there are a few
[04:13:22] <wm-bb>	 extra challen <clipped message>
[04:13:22] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> ges: Generally complex and overloaded computer science terminology, outdated gl...)
[04:13:43] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> And that gets worse if you don't have a regulating body; Spanish regularly adds more words for computer science things but is still behind (re @Feeglgeef: Computer science concepts are generally hard to translate as they haven't had hundreds of years to develop as things to need a w...)
[04:14:20] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Computer science as a whole is very very anglocentric, all words were created with only English in mind
[04:16:57] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Before WikiLambda, grammatical gender was an issue only with usernames, and to solve that, we had the gender user preference and the `{{GENDER:` syntax. Now with Wikilambda, it's also data types. In theory, data types' translated labels could have a field for the grammatical gender, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort. (re @amire80: Also, somewhat unusual stuff
[04:16:57] <wm-bb>	 such as the mes <clipped message>
[04:16:58] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> sage "Literal $1". $1 can be pretty much any type name, which is not a big deal in E...)
[04:21:16] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Oh fun. I've found at least one language in which it's probably incorrectly translated: French. I'm not a big expert in either, but in Spanish, the word "literal" happens to be the same in masculine and feminine, but in French it appears to be different: "fonction littérale, chaîne littérale, nombre littéral, entier littéral, booléen littéral, objet littéral."
[04:21:16] <wm-bb>	 Nicolas Vig <clipped message>
[04:21:16] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> neron , can you confirm?
[04:22:03] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> So I suspect that the French translation at https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&showMessage=wikilambda-literal-type&group=ext-wikilambda-user&language=fr&filter=&optional=1&action=translate should be updated.
[04:35:01] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> On https://www.wikifunctions.org/view/ru/Z18825?uselang=en , is there a reason to write "Implementation" with a capital letter, but "function", "language", and "code" with small letters?
[04:36:42] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I'm not sure what you are referring to? (re @amire80: On https://www.wikifunctions.org/view/ru/Z18825?uselang=en , is there a reason to write "Implementation" with a capital letter, ...)
[04:49:15] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> This test Z20932 fails with the message "'Z20924' is not defined", which seems strange. : https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/235aa583/file_67529.jpg
[04:49:49] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/3d5a4706/file_67530.jpg
[04:49:57] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> The labels in bold here.
[04:51:02] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> That's really weird. Perhaps deserves a phab ticket if it doesn't already have one? (re @Toby: This test Z20932 fails with the message "'Z20924' is not defined", which seems strange.)
[04:53:33] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Implementation is hard coded to label in a different way, this should be a bug report imo (re @amire80: On https://www.wikifunctions.org/view/ru/Z18825?uselang=en , is there a reason to write "Implementation" with a capital letter, ...)
[05:03:22] <wm-bb>	 <Toby> Oh, nevermind. I found the problem. The actual JS code was referencing ZIDs for the wrong function: https://www.wikifunctions.org/w/index.php?title=Z20851&diff=149552&oldid=147496 (re @Feeglgeef: That's really weird. Perhaps deserves a phab ticket if it doesn't already have one?)
[05:03:42] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Ahh yeah that makes more sense (re @Toby: Oh, nevermind. I found the problem. The actual JS code was referencing ZIDs for the wrong function: https://www.wikifunctions.or...)
[05:04:22] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Ah GZWDer was creating a bunch of them; probably rushed it.
[09:40:40] <wm-bb>	 <Nicolas> true (and also in other languages I guess)
[09:40:40] <wm-bb>	 <Nicolas> but is it really an adjective here? and does it have to be? I see that Potuguese turned the translation the other way: https://translatewiki.net/wiki/MediaWiki:Wikilambda-literal-type/pt (re @amire80: Oh fun. I've found at least one language in which it's probably incorrectly translated: French. I'm not a big expert in either, ...)
[11:23:41] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> it is an adjective in english, yes, and what portuguese is doing seems more like a workaround for an otherwise untranslatable string (re @Nicolas: true (and also in other languages I guess)
[11:23:42] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> but is it really an adjective here? and does it have to be? I see that Potuguese turn...)
[14:25:53] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Yes, it's an adjective (re @Nicolas: true (and also in other languages I guess)
[14:25:54] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> but is it really an adjective here? and does it have to be? I see that Potuguese turn...)
[14:26:00] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> It appears here:
[14:26:03] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> https://tools-static.wmflabs.org/bridgebot/9c4581a5/file_67535.jpg
[14:26:17] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Here, the data type is "natural language".
[14:27:11] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> AFAIK, "langage naturel littéral" happens to be correct in French, but if the data type's name was in the feminine gender, it would be incorrect.
[14:28:14] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Yes, it's a workaround, and it's reasonable. I did the same thing in Hebrew and Russian. (re @Nikki: it is an adjective in english, yes, and what portuguese is doing seems more like a workaround for an otherwise untranslatable st...)
[14:28:35] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I'd do the same thing in English, too :)
[14:29:16] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Even though English doesn't strongly need it.
[14:29:59] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> I don't even understand what it's supposed to mean in english
[14:30:37] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Yeah, those menus are... complicated in general
[14:34:17] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> That's one of the reasons I'm a strong believer in localizing everything as early as possible: it gives everyone an opportunity to discuss the UI and the functionality in general.
[14:36:46] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> my best guess (only looking at the screenshot) is that it means "the id for a natural language object", in which case I would just label it "natural language"
[14:38:04] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> I also don't know what reference means (I know what wikipedia references are and what wikidata references are, but those don't seem to make sense in that context)
[15:05:45] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> it makes sense to me in a programming context – in
[15:05:46] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> ```
[15:05:48] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> var x = 1```
[15:05:49] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> x is being set to the literal 1, while in
[15:05:51] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> ```
[15:05:52] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> var x = n```
[15:05:54] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> x is being set to whatever y currently refers to
[15:06:06] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> (I'm not saying the messages shouldn't be changed, just how I currently understand them ^^)
[15:06:46] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> "literal" maybe makes more sense for some types than others
[15:13:12] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Literal natural language is the ISO code (like "en"), reference is to an object persistent on Wikifunctions (like Z1002/English), function call gets a natural language from a function (re @Nikki: my best guess (only looking at the screenshot) is that it means "the id for a natural language object", in which case I would ju...)
[15:14:17] <wm-bb>	 <Winston_Sung> I guess we're actually using BCP 47 language subtags instead of ISO 639 codes? (re @Feeglgeef: Literal natural language is the ISO code (like "en"), reference is to an object persistent on Wikifunctions (like Z1002/English)...)
[15:14:36] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> then "language code" would be much easier to understand (re @Feeglgeef: Literal natural language is the ISO code (like "en"), reference is to an object persistent on Wikifunctions (like Z1002/English)...)
[15:16:07] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> It's different for all things though; natural language just happens to be structured with a language code (which I disagree with, but whatever). It could be hardcoded differently if we really wanted it to (re @Nikki: then "language code" would be much easier to understand)
[15:16:49] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> and I would probably use something like "wikifunctions object" rather than "reference" (although aren't functions also objects?)
[15:17:21] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Wikifunctions persistent object? (re @Nikki: and I would probably use something like "wikifunctions object" rather than "reference" (although aren't functions also objects?))
[15:18:05] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Everything in the menu is a Wikifunctions object, only reference is a Z2
[15:19:05] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> "persistent object" is also not a very helpful label... are other objects only temporary?
[15:19:56] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Well, sorta. The Z2 is the root object, so a composition is a Z2, but the code inside of it is not (re @Nikki: "persistent object" is also not a very helpful label... are other objects only temporary?)
[15:20:15] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Persistent just means you can reference it and open it on your browser
[15:21:58] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> I can open functions in a browser too?
[15:22:27] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Yes, click Z21121
[15:23:36] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Everything with a ZID is a Z2
[15:23:41] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> on an unrelated note, I'm *this* close to giving up and switching my interface language on wikifunctions to english, because the constant popups are still incredibly irritating
[15:26:47] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> it's not like I get the interface in any other language anyway when opening links opens it in the language of the person sending the link, instead of behaving sensibly and using the interface language *I* selected
[15:28:27] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> So just make a script to always switch you to your language (re @Nikki: it's not like I get the interface in any other language anyway when opening links opens it in the language of the person sending...)
[15:28:57] <wm-bb>	 <Sannita> Maybe it shouldn't happen in the first place
[15:29:23] <wm-bb>	 <Sannita> Sorry to hear, and sorry everyone is on vacation these days, so nobody can fix this in the upcoming days
[15:29:33] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Yes, obviously. (re @Sannita: Maybe it shouldn't happen in the first place)
[15:30:14] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I'm just an impatient person
[15:30:16] <wm-bb>	 <Sannita> Nikki if the problem persists, please ping me again coming the new year, I'll try to file a complain with the team, so that they can look into it
[15:30:26] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> I've complained about it multiple times before, so I doubt it would be fixed in a few days anyway :P (re @Sannita: Sorry to hear, and sorry everyone is on vacation these days, so nobody can fix this in the upcoming days)
[15:30:47] <wm-bb>	 <Sannita> Oof, I'll be sure this time you get an answer then (re @Nikki: I've complained about it multiple times before, so I doubt it would be fixed in a few days anyway :P)
[15:40:46] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> here's one of the places I mentioned the popup (re @Nikki: also I am REALLY FED UP of seeing a "language changed for this wiki" popup every time I open a link)
[15:40:55] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> and another (re @Nikki: but why? I rarely want to see a page in someone else's language, getting the "language changed" popup almost every time I click ...)
[15:46:44] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> there was also this mentioned a long time ago, which has since been closed as resolved, but I'm still getting those popups even in vector-2022 (in that skin they're in the top left corner) (re @wikilinksbot: T343203 – Language tooltip from ULS displayed after language change even though ULS is not involved, and hangs in the place the ...)
[15:47:48] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> (it's not *only* about the popups though, they just make the language switching more noticeable)
[15:54:14] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> I agree with you. I talked to @vrandecic about this a few times, and he has a strong opposite opinion 🤷🏻‍♂️ (re @Nikki: it's not like I get the interface in any other language anyway when opening links opens it in the language of the person sending...)
[15:55:53] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> It's why user scripts exist (re @amire80: I agree with you. I talked to @vrandecic about this a few times, and he has a strong opposite opinion 🤷🏻‍♂️)
[15:56:07] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I can make one for you if you really want
[15:56:15] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> It's like 1 line of code
[15:58:18] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> maybe all the developers should be required to set their interface to a language that isn't `en` (if they don't speak any others, there's always `en-ca` and `en-gb`) so they're more aware of how it behaves for other languages :P
[15:59:39] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> it's really not. the whole point of selecting an interface language is that you want to see the interface in that language (re @Feeglgeef: It's why user scripts exist)
[16:00:40] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> maybe the bot can start randomly picking the language code it uses, instead of always using `en` :P
[16:00:54] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I mean that the developers disagree with you, not when you need an i18n bug to be fixed (re @Nikki: it's really not. the whole point of selecting an interface language is that you want to see the interface in that language)
[16:02:11] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> I didn't object to this, I'll make my user script anyway :) feel free to steal it (re @Nikki: maybe the bot can start randomly picking the language code it uses, instead of always using en :P)
[16:02:59] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> const langCodeRegex = /\/view\/([a-z]{2,3})\//i; 
[16:03:00] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> if (langCodeRegex.test(window.location.href)) {
[16:03:01] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef>   window.location.href = window.location.href.replace(langCodeRegex, '/view/en/');
[16:03:03] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> }
[16:03:04] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Might work
[16:06:05] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> that's going to make the page load twice, and possibly even show the popup twice
[16:06:57] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Oh yeah. You'd need a tampermonkey script if you don't want that (re @Nikki: that's going to make the page load twice, and possibly even show the popup twice)
[16:19:15] <wm-bb>	 <Nikki> pages are also really slow to load... z2 is particularly bad, looking at the network requests it doesn't even start fetching the data to display until about 4-5 seconds in. one time I refreshed it and after fetching the favicon it waited another 12 seconds before doing anything
[16:22:27] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> User scripts should be necessary only for rare and very advanced things. What Nikki and I are talking about is not rare or advanced. It's how Wikidata works and it makes a lot of sense. I never understood why Wikifunctions works differently. Denny explained his reasoning to me a few times, and I disagree with it 🤷🏻‍♂️
[16:23:24] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> In a perfect world :) (re @amire80: User scripts should be necessary only for rare and very advanced things. What Nikki and I are talking about is not rare or advan...)
[16:23:46] <wm-bb>	 <Nicolas> maybe not the best idea but could we have a script activated by default for everyone?
[16:24:12] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> We can enable a gadget by default I think (re @Nicolas: maybe not the best idea but could we have a script activated by default for everyone?)
[16:24:24] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> That requires the Interface Administrator permission
[16:25:42] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> The only Community member with said permission is Mdaniels5757.
[17:17:32] <wm-bb>	 <lucaswerkmeister> oh, apparently I lost my interface admin rights o_O
[17:18:01] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> Yep :) (re @lucaswerkmeister: oh, apparently I lost my interface admin rights o_O)
[17:19:00] <wm-bb>	 <Feeglgeef> In early August
[21:33:21] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> Consider fixing it at https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&showMessage=wikilambda-literal-type&group=ext-wikilambda-user&language=fr&filter=&optional=1&action=translate (re @Nicolas: true (and also in other languages I guess)
[21:33:21] <wm-bb>	 <amire80> but is it really an adjective here? and does it have to be? I see that Potuguese turn...)
[21:34:28] <wm-bb>	 <Nicolas> I'll do once I've got time and a better idea of what it means (re @amire80: Consider fixing it at https://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&showMessage=wikilambda-literal-type&group=ext-wi...)