[00:31:12] [1/2] Quick query.. `Policies are largely the same as on Miraheze, except for the Content Policy, which limited permitted wikis while the process of charity status was in review so that they could assess what sorts of wikis are allowed per tax guidelines. If a merger is approved, Miraheze's policies (including Content Policy) will prevail.` By this do they mean the merged host will use Mira [00:31:12] [2/2] heze's content policy and anyone will be able to ask for pretty much any wiki to be created? [00:31:40] Cause I really like how strict WikiTide is about creating wikis. :') [00:32:48] miraheze has been more liberal then it was in the past as of late tbh [00:33:32] I suspect the ultimate outcome will be more or less in between [00:37:24] Will the site wikitide still exist if merged or no? [00:37:30] The goal, however, is to minimize disruption to both communities. [00:38:23] I have no faith in miraheze and think its for the best if it shuts down [00:38:59] That's your opinion, and feel free to add it to the RfC if you'd like. [00:39:06] Yeah, I'm kinda scared of the workload WikiTide will suddenly have to manage if they merge. :S Y'all already seem busy as is but what do I know.. [00:39:36] I feel like another dispute is gonna occur and back to separate wiki farms we go [00:39:47] Will the site wikitide still exist if both wikifarms merge [00:40:39] It's one of the potential benefits in our view -- we'd have a combined technical team that would be substantially larger, with more folks that have focused knowledge in the SRE domain, meaning fewer folks acting as bottleneck to get things moving. [00:41:41] WikiTide wikis will still exist and retain their URLs, what happens to landing pages if approved is still TBD. [00:41:53] And what will happen to this server if the merge happens [00:42:35] [1/3] Just copy and pasting some info here for convenience: `The plan here would be to reverse the fork. WikiTide's volunteers will merge back into Miraheze and will serve in community positions, support positions, system administration and development positions, and on the Board. WikiTide's wikis would then be merged back with Miraheze once infrastructure has been rearranged and moved to t [00:42:36] [2/3] he US. The legacy Miraheze computer infrastructure will gradually move to the cloud and VPS model in the US that WikiTide uses which has shown high performance gains with lower costs than Miraheze, as we figure out how to dispose of our computer equipment. The WikiTide Board of Directors will remain and potentially incorporate members of the Miraheze Limited and Miraheze Foundation bo [00:42:36] [3/3] ards should they accept the invitation. The legal name of the organization will be WikiTide Foundation though they will do business under the name of Miraheze at least for a while.` [00:43:19] Let's avoid speculation, please and thank you. We've worked hard to rebuild relationships between all parties and so far I've seen former points of friction resolve much more smoothly. [00:43:32] Ok [00:44:15] Yep, exact technicals of the process are potentially subject to change based on what is easiest/poses the least risk, but either way it won't be an overnight process. [00:52:16] Quick question whats the email for miraheze to appeal a ban on the server @notaracham [00:53:14] stewards[at]miraheze[dot].org [00:53:25] Appreciate it [00:53:58] I have no guarantee they can provide a response any time soon - given the conditions. But worth a shot. [00:55:12] Hello 😄 [00:55:31] Lots of old faces I have missed [00:57:22] Hi there, not clear which server will take final precedence, but glad to see you in the mix as well. 😄 [00:57:45] I have a wikitide focused question, hence coming here [00:58:11] Certainly, I'm about to head out but will try to answer later if nobody else can get an answer for you. [00:59:03] Thank you, I currently run a small wiki over on MH, would it be possible to important my backup files over onto a wiki over here? I can make a request and all that, wanted to see if it was possible before filling out a request [01:00:11] Looking for stability and have been running a small wiki since early 2022, WT has a better and more stable running then the issues I have had with Mira [01:00:28] While that's a thing you could do, I don't think it's necessarily advisable. MH and WT will likely be combining infra down the line, if 1C passes. [01:01:25] (With WT modernization taking over, not utilizing current MH infrastructure) [01:01:57] But if you'd like to hedge bets while that process is still being finalized, that's also perfectly fine. [01:02:32] Alright, thats a relief, I have user on my wiki worried about loosing everything if the merger happens, would it be advisable to say that editing the wiki is still possible until a clear answer is provided? [01:04:51] Absolutely, and you can always generate and download a data dump for extra security [01:05:28] Thank you for the clarification! Hope you have a good evening [01:05:48] <.labster> Backups are something you should be doing regularly for your wiki, even though we do backup too. [01:06:18] Yes, I learned the hard way when DB141 or whatever it was called went down this time last year, lost everything for almost 2 months [01:06:40] <.labster> Ouch, sorry to hear that. [02:25:07] My wiki was also affected by that of course, and first thing I do after restore is finding myself an alternative, which is here. [02:26:18] I left for a while in all honesty, my group asked me to bring back the wiki, forgot this place existed ngl, went back to Mira, wish I remembered this place existed months ago [02:27:44] At least I got a right decision for the first time in my life lol [02:28:11] Anyway, still glad to help everyone as I can [02:32:51] Hoping the merge happens, if not jumping over to here [09:23:02] the trick with the remerge is that wikitide people would become a controlling majority on the board and I assume return as such for other positions, boosted by the scale of miraheze [09:23:25] and by some of the interesting candidates that have come from the woodwork such as oa and kiju [09:23:37] maybe even labster [09:25:18] they would return with something of a plan and with insights how to do what miraheze did far more efficiently in terms of cost and having more ground covered (like having proper backups set up automatically at all times) [09:27:10] [1/2] what I hope is that the momentum from there is immediately supplemented with other promising candidates, with the acceptance of offers that have been left hanging by the board issue for a while now (lab had that frustration when waiting for a final approval that ended up becoming the recent rfc), and with a renewed interest in outreach to get people who can think at the scale needed [09:27:10] [2/2] for a wikifarm at miraheze scale [09:31:44] [1/2] I'm no sre so I can't tell you how the merge would go but I would assume it would be something like this; miraheze under the hood is upgraded to be compatible with things like multiversion and other wikitide innovations, then wikitide is 'poured into' miraheze infra when that is up to standard. I assume the wikitide domain will be up for a good long while for ease of transition even [09:31:44] [2/2] if this happens, offered as a custom domain option as long as desired though not necessarily for new wikis at that point. [09:32:18] Nothing has been decided yet but what Raidarr says seems perfectly reasonable and what would likely happen [09:34:02] [1/2] I can't say how the centralauth problem would be resolved but at least one way to do it manually would be from experiences of how avid transitioned, by having a grace period in which wikitide users put together compatible miraheze accounts in the background. Again I'm way into daydreaming but perhaps the name could even be synced on wikitide for ease if they can't get the exact name [09:34:02] [2/2] on mira. Then after a reasonable transition time the wiki can just slide over and edits assigned to mira accounts. It's not automatic or techy but it is relatively low risk, and it is feasible at wikitide's humble scale to arrange [09:34:41] that could be something a concerned wikitide wiki tries to do sooner, ideally after miraheze gets some of the wikitide benefits in order to best smoothen transition [09:36:40] [1/2] lots of misinformation and unclarity floating around on the rfc, I'd comment but well you know, all I got is an essay in the wikitide userspace but maybe it will help someone regarding background and a suggestion: [09:36:40] [2/2] https://meta.wikitide.org/wiki/User:Raidarr/Miraheze_Commentary [10:36:57] I can't imagine ratifying the CentralAuth tables would be _that difficult_ (in hindsight, it probably will), but I do recall when Fandom merged with GP they had to manually sort all of the clashes out, and changed some of the usernames to `-fduser` and `-gpuser` and then allowed them to rename them afterwards. [10:44:58] I'm sure it's quite resolvable, there's just some fairly simple manual ways to pull it off too - which could even be an option for those who are concerned [11:03:29] [1/2] (the easiest way I'm seeing forward at the minute, is to bring WikiTide meta over to Miraheze since I think it's used as the login wiki?, and then migrate all of the accounts from there to global accounts and fix the conflicts manually, that way everyone on WikiTide should have a global MH account they can attatch their local accounts to, but who knows if it would be that s [11:03:30] [2/2] imple.) [12:28:05] is Scribunto a pre-installed extension for Wikitide? Attempting some complex parsing heavily inspired by the DragonTamer wiki's masterpiece [13:29:24] I'd still prefer a datatable format similar to a spreadsheet if that's possible? I have 78 current variables across 300+ items [13:58:40] Ok, so a months worth of work has been wiped from the wiki [15:49:14] I came in here to ask if there's known image server issues rn but [15:49:14] I came in here to ask if there's known image server issues rn but [15:49:22] W [15:49:22] W [15:49:26] Huh [15:49:26] Huh [15:49:41] Okay now there's three things I'm confused on [15:49:41] Okay now there's three things I'm confused on [15:50:06] What do you mean by this? [15:50:06] What do you mean by this? [15:52:37] apparent exaggeration on my part, but still not great, after the database crash this morning, its not a month thats been lost but just over 2 weeks [15:52:37] apparent exaggeration on my part, but still not great, after the database crash this morning, its not a month thats been lost but just over 2 weeks [15:53:26] I think WikiTide relay is messed up [15:53:26] I think WikiTide relay is messed up [16:00:36] Did you uninstall an extension recently? [16:00:36] Did you uninstall an extension recently? [16:03:08] Having skimmed earlier discussion your error doesn't look like a database error which I would assume means your database is fine and a rollback probably wouldn't fix it [16:03:08] Having skimmed earlier discussion your error doesn't look like a database error which I would assume means your database is fine and a rollback probably wouldn't fix it [16:04:59] idk what happened, but i think you gave WikiTideRelay an aneurism [16:04:59] idk what happened, but i think you gave WikiTideRelay an aneurism [16:06:30] The fact that this error is happening is concerning since FallbackContent::GetText() is absolutely supposed to exist [16:06:30] The fact that this error is happening is concerning since FallbackContent::GetText() is absolutely supposed to exist [16:07:54] But it's saying the method is undefined not its results [16:07:54] But it's saying the method is undefined not its results [16:08:08] No there was what appeared to be literal database crash earlier, and then a 2 week+ rollback, nothing to do with any extensions [16:08:08] No there was what appeared to be literal database crash earlier, and then a 2 week+ rollback, nothing to do with any extensions [16:09:30] I assumed it was something definitely regarding the database for the fact that all editing is "locked for maintenance" on my wiki [16:09:31] I assumed it was something definitely regarding the database for the fact that all editing is "locked for maintenance" on my wiki [16:09:58] WikiTide was locked for maintenance as a whole yesterday [16:09:59] WikiTide was locked for maintenance as a whole yesterday [16:10:14] Is it still locked now? [16:10:14] Is it still locked now? [16:10:22] for me it is [16:10:22] for me it is [16:10:57] Can you link me to where the database crash was discussed / screenshot? [16:10:57] Can you link me to where the database crash was discussed / screenshot? [16:11:21] I do not have any discussion regarding it or a screenshot [16:11:21] I do not have any discussion regarding it or a screenshot [16:14:38] I see it being called a crash but my understanding of crashes is inconsistent with the screenshots and errors that I'm actually seeing [16:14:38] I see it being called a crash but my understanding of crashes is inconsistent with the screenshots and errors that I'm actually seeing [16:20:04] I'm not a technician, I don't even know why your grilling me on this to begin with [16:20:04] I'm not a technician, I don't even know why your grilling me on this to begin with [16:28:49] I'm not a technician either but I'm interested in helping find a solution if it's within my power which is why I'm trying to probe for more information [16:28:50] I'm not a technician either but I'm interested in helping find a solution if it's within my power which is why I'm trying to probe for more information [16:36:32] unrelated, if I think something looks broken in #tech, who am I supposed to ping? [16:36:32] unrelated, if I think something looks broken in #tech, who am I supposed to ping? [16:41:35] uh, I'll just ping the sre role [16:41:35] uh, I'll just ping the sre role [16:43:01] or reception since they're online [16:43:01] or reception since they're online [16:51:33] @Site Reliability Engineers The relay appears to be relaying the messages it sends. [16:51:33] @Site Reliability Engineers The relay appears to be relaying the messages it sends. [16:52:27] Probably the SRE tag is better than an individual person (at least the group ping didn't get repeated here) [16:52:28] Probably the SRE tag is better than an individual person (at least the group ping didn't get repeated here) [17:51:25] Notified the folks who can resolve it. [17:51:25] Notified the folks who can resolve it. [18:11:04] I also can't edit my wiki [18:11:04] I also can't edit my wiki [18:11:16] I just noticed it's in maintenance mode too [18:11:17] I just noticed it's in maintenance mode too [18:14:17] [1/4] Something went wrong [18:14:17] [1/4] Something went wrong [18:14:18] [2/4] Try again in a few minutes. If this error persists, please check our Twitter (https://twitter.com/WikiTide) for more information or inform us by joining #wikitide-sre on irc.libera.chat or our Discord server (https://wikitide.org/discord). [18:14:18] [2/4] Try again in a few minutes. If this error persists, please check our Twitter (https://twitter.com/WikiTide) for more information or inform us by joining #wikitide-sre on irc.libera.chat or our Discord server (https://wikitide.org/discord). [18:14:18] [3/4] (Cannot access the database: Cannot access the database: Connection timed out (db21)) [18:14:18] [3/4] (Cannot access the database: Cannot access the database: Connection timed out (db21)) [18:14:18] [4/4] PLEASE FIX IT RIGHT NOW!!!!😡😡😡😡😡 [18:14:18] [4/4] PLEASE FIX IT RIGHT NOW!!!!😡😡😡😡😡 [18:22:24] Echoing should now be resolved. [18:24:04] [1/2] Also, all-caps messages with angry faces demanding immediate fixes aren't helpful. [18:24:05] [2/2] Our tech team is looking into the db locks that are causing trouble for some users, hoping to have that resolved shortly as well. [18:24:28] another user is reporting a database crash which is concerning [18:25:32] ...was there a full wikitide rollback [18:26:21] like of all wikis [18:26:44] Recent edits are missing [18:27:08] Not to my knowledge, but default behavior is to lock DB after server restarts. @Site Reliability Engineers are the best resource on this front. [18:27:21] cp1 randomly started up [18:27:27] So U.S. visitors are looking back in time! [18:27:41] @platyellow ^ looks like that happened [18:28:05] Edits are safe, give us a bit to unlock db and fix replication lag [18:28:19] Ah, this is good then [18:28:46] Uh and may we have an ETA for T87 to be done? [19:24:23] Hopefully the recent issues are just growing pains. Every time I get manically motivated to dive into smashing code together, something happens either irl or digital lmao. I finally got the google sheet to spit out data in the proper syntax for the item list, but can't create the module and work on the parsing side until wikitide's issues are resolved [19:26:26] looks like i'm stuck in a staredown with cp1 [20:04:29] eta? [21:12:13] [1/2] sorry, I can't tell from reading the last messages above - But seems there's a issue with Images not loading right now. (in case that wasn't already known) [21:12:13] [2/2] Thanks you in advance [21:44:00] that and several other issues are known something is going on with like. everything apparently [22:10:57] unfortunate confluence of future of both platforms in active discussion + holiday madness + evident misfortune stacking at one time [22:50:24] What’s wrong with WikiTide today [22:50:50] It’s down again after it was working for me yesterday [23:12:53] when in doubt, blame Puppet [23:15:42] Did it go under maintenance today [23:17:24] Oh my, nothing in the #wiki-feed for 11 hours. [23:19:22] The site is down for some reason [23:20:12] I last edited at 12:38AM this morning [23:21:09] even the main page is down, so it's not just wikis. [23:22:01] Who’s going to fix this [23:22:40] Hopefully it will fixed before 2024 [23:23:15] oh yeah i don't think these outages are for more than a day usually. [23:24:06] The former Miraheze stewards will fix it [23:26:05] CA and Agent are actively investigating and have a potential culprit, we're looking to get things back up as soon as possible. Thanks for bearing with us, as Raidarr mentioned earlier it's a very busy time with a lot of things moving at once, including RL holiday prep that many of us are juggling with WT/WF duties. [23:27:48] Best of luck, happy holidays.